Is it Necessary?

Many people state that if you have a hide on the warm side of your tank then you should have the same on the cold side? Is it necessary? I have a fairly large tank for each of my snakes, they spend most of their time in their hides which are on top of the under tank heat pad. And occasionally they'll come out and explorer. I keep the water bowl on the cool side to help maintain its cool. Never had any issues but now wondering if I should invest in another hide, but how do owners with snake racks pull it off?

Also in terms of exposure, my larger snake is kinda a centerpiece in the living room, has branches and trees that cover up some of the tank but for most of the part it's pretty exposed, I've read many owners cover their tank sides to make the snake feel more safe. Is that also necessary?

Like I said I feel like my snakes seem happy, eat well, shed well... But wondering if they'll be even happier if I adjust.

Thanks

You should definitely have a cool side hide. Snakes will often sacrifice their needs and temperature for safety and security.

your snakes are always in the warm side hide because they have no choice and that’s not good for them. They should be able to choose which side they want to be in and be allowed to thermoregulate based on their needs without sacrificing security. You currently aren’t giving them that option.

Owners with snake racks will provide double hides or maybe none at all because in a rack the entire enclosure is a hide. When the tub is slid in its fully enclosed and therefore they feel
safe and secure yet have the ability to move hot to cold. I’ve seen breeders still offer hides in a rack I’ve seen some with none at all.

many owners cover three sides of a tank and always keep it covered or slowly remove a side every few weeks months as the snake becomes secure and is eating properly.

When you say “invest” in a new hide. I mean unless you are buying diamond encrusted ones it really isn’t an investment. We are talking a few bucks and some even make their own. I’ve seen people cut holes into takeout plastic boxes. But if a $5 investment for your snakes safety and security isn’t in the budget then I’d re think snake keeping all together. And no disrespect it just comes off like a decision you need to make where I’d be running to a store now to get one. You can go to a dollar store and find plastic something to make a hide or even a pot or something. You should add one ASAP because your snake is going to roast constantly on the warm side because it’s too afraid to head to the cool side which has no security for it.

ball pythons are very shy so yours pick security over thermoregulation, if they had hides on both sides they could choose proper temps for their needs.

Sorry investment was the wrong word, but definitely not $5, not a fan of cardboard boxes as hides, and for a 6ft snake it's definitely closer to $30 or more for a proper solid hide. One is a carpet and the other is a corn, just posted on this side of the forum cause in general snakes are very similar in their habits.

But It's something to look into as technically my corn has a second hide in a tree trunk on the cooler side but never see her in there. And they are both active at night. When I drop the temperature on both sides of the tank. But now I've also heard the hides should be identical or is that just pushing it?

I just don't like the cover up of the tank as I like the sun to shine on the tank during the day, I know it's not necessary but I feel like it is for any creature that would normally be exposed to it in the wild, there's a difference between sunlight and artificial light.

But thanks for the advise

Yeah definitely don’t use cardboard it’s just going to get feces on it or get wet and then cause you further issue. The snake that is in the exposed enclosure is it eating? Are you having any other issues with it? Why are you considering covering the sides now? If the snake is eating fine and acting fine then it is obviously comfortable and you don’t have to cover the sites. People usually do that in the beginning in order to make this knee comfortable. You should be fine just adding another hide. They don’t Have to be exactly identical but most people do suggest trying to keep them similar in size because again if the snake feels more secure and one than the other they may choose that side as a favorite and sacrifice their temperature needs for security

Yeah both tanks are "exposed" and never skipped a meal, shed fine and handle great. Just thought maybe it wasn't good for them. But will leave it they way it is.

I just never did the second hide cause they do come out during the day and explore and even in the hide always have their heads out watching everything. I felt like if they got hot they'd just come out but you guys are saying they'd sacrifice their temp for safety so I will be ordering 2 new hides.

Want what's best for them

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

Yeah both tanks are "exposed" and never skipped a meal, shed fine and handle great. Just thought maybe it wasn't good for them. But will leave it they way it is.

I just never did the second hide cause they do come out during the day and explore and even in the hide always have their heads out watching everything. I felt like if they got hot they'd just come out but you guys are saying they'd sacrifice their temp for safety so I will be ordering 2 new hides.

Want what's best for them

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I’d leave it as is and add the extra hide.

Again like i said. I’m sure the snakes cost you decent money and you obviously care about them so it’s not much to pony up to just add to their well being. Good on you

There is always room for improvement and if its easily done, why not do it ;)

I've known of snakes that have lived, grown and eaten in screen enclosures with nothing but heat lamps on top. Seemed to do well, aside from bad sheds. However, I would still not recommend keeping them that way.

Your enclosures sound really nice already, but personally, I would add a hide to the cool side. This way they do not have to choose between safety and thermo regulating.

Lol how big are your enclosures, I managed to move around the Corns tank for now and found an extra tree hide for the corner which isn't the same as her hot side hide but about the same size, she's in a 36"x17" tank but my big guy is going to be slightly harder, she's in a 56" x 22" and I use a large hide that's sold for tortoises but this way her whole body can fit it, adding another one of those is going be a bit more challenging without losing too much space lol but it can be done.

Here's my corn snake tank revised. (The thermometer on the glass is not what I use to track the temperature lol, its just there cause she's never torn it down and its pretty accurate)
Sorry I know this is the ball python section.

https://i.imgur.com/PsIG0tK.jpg

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

Sorry investment was the wrong word, but definitely not $5, not a fan of cardboard boxes as hides, and for a 6ft snake it's definitely closer to $30 or more for a proper solid hide.

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this simply isn't true.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

But It's something to look into as technically my corn has a second hide in a tree trunk on the cooler side but never see her in there. And they are both active at night. When I drop the temperature on both sides of the tank. But now I've also heard the hides should be identical or is that just pushing it?

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you're in the ball python section talking about Morelia and Colubrids...

my Corn spends a lot of time on his cool side, except after feeding day. i don't offer identical hides for him but they're very similar in size and shape, and i've never read Corns need 2 identical hides as much as beeps do. beeps absolutely do better with identical hides; it's S.O.P.

why do you drop temps at night? there's no need.

animals can have preferences just like people.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

I just don't like the cover up of the tank as I like the sun to shine on the tank during the day, I know it's not necessary but I feel like it is for any creature that would normally be exposed to it in the wild, there's a difference between sunlight and artificial light.

But thanks for the advise

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well this doesn't have to do with what YOU like, it's about what the snakes need and what we know about them to keep them happy.

a ball python doesn't care where the light comes from, as they'll just hide from it. [emoji108]

wild ball pythons spend the vast majority of their lives hiding in small burrows; no sunshine in there, and they are a nocturnal species to boot.

A sturdy ball python hide for an adult is pretty expensive. We're not talking a plastic tub that's cut out, if you wanted a large hide that could fit the whole snake, not tip over and break apart,, Ijust checked online it's $50 dollars Canadian so slightly less cause your in the States.

I mean at night I turn off any light source that produces heat, some nights might turn on the red light. But just keep their heat mat on. Just like Africa the night is always cooler than the day, obviously it doesn't get freezing in the house but the temperature naturally just drops to a comfortable degree.

And that's exactly why I let in the sun shine, cause in Africa a Ball is going to be in some abandoned hide during the day but we're talking Africa that sun is going to be blasting on that hide all day, and it's going to get into the hide some what. Plus any sun light a snake gets is more beneficial as Vitamin D is good for a snake. With or without the sun shining on the tank, the ball is probably going to be in its hide during the day, sunshine is going be more positive than negative.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

A sturdy ball python hide for an adult is pretty expensive. We're not talking a plastic tub that's cut out, if you wanted a large hide that could fit the whole snake, not tip over and break apart,, Ijust checked online it's $50 dollars Canadian so slightly less cause your in the States.

I mean at night I turn off any light source that produces heat, some nights might turn on the red light. But just keep their heat mat on. Just like Africa the night is always cooler than the day, obviously it doesn't get freezing in the house but the temperature naturally just drops to a comfortable degree.

And that's exactly why I let in the sun shine, cause in Africa a Ball is going to be in some abandoned hide during the day but we're talking Africa that sun is going to be blasting on that hide all day, and it's going to get into the hide some what. Plus any sun light a snake gets is more beneficial as Vitamin D is good for a snake. With or without the sun shining on the tank, the ball is probably going to be in its hide during the day, sunshine is going be more positive than negative.

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you need to get more creative. [emoji6] buy a terra cotta planter big enough, make a hole. ~$15.

this isn't africa tho, and they're not in the wild. they're pets. there's no benefit to dropping temps.

also, how does "extra" vitamin D do anything for a nocturnal animal??? there's no basis for that at all, and there is no science proving positive or negative. here is a study done on captive ball pythons showing no correlation between exposure to vitamin D and how well they absorbed calcium (the biological process vitamin D is used for).

i cover 3 sides to almost all my snakes enclosures. whatever sunlight makes it into their tubs is plenty.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

you need to get more creative. [emoji6] buy a terra cotta planter big enough, make a hole. ~$15.

this isn't africa tho, and they're not in the wild. they're pets. there's no benefit to dropping temps.

also, how does "extra" vitamin D do anything for a nocturnal animal??? there's no basis for that at all, and there is no science proving positive or negative. here is a study done on captive ball pythons showing no correlation between exposure to vitamin D and how well they absorbed calcium (the biological process vitamin D is used for).

i cover 3 sides to almost all my snakes enclosures. whatever sunlight makes it into their tubs is plenty.

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To each their own I guess lol, nothing against your suggestions, pretty funny and creative not going to lie.

Not here to argue, but you might want to do a bit more research on Vitamin D and animals, your link is from 2013, Nocturnal animals just means they are more active at night. The Moon reflects UV light, BPs get UV light no matter what lol, they also get it from their food, but now compare a wild mouse vs a captivity mouse, is that mouse getting exposed to UV enough, does it have enough vitamins for your BP? Just something to think about.
The debate is, is UV really beneficial or not, since I am not giving my snakes UV at night, mind as well give them it during the day while they are in their hides, whether they get any or not, won't harm them in anyway. If you read this link, its interesting, there may be signs that extra Vitamin D can be transferred to the eggs of a female BP.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is...captive_snakes

Good Luck on your snakes! All the best. Like I said not here to argue but a good debate.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

To each their own I guess lol, nothing against your suggestions, pretty funny and creative not going to lie.

Not here to argue, but you might want to do a bit more research on Vitamin D and animals, your link is from 2013, Nocturnal animals just means they are more active at night. The Moon reflects UV light, BPs get UV light no matter what lol, they also get it from their food, but now compare a wild mouse vs a captivity mouse, is that mouse getting exposed to UV enough, does it have enough vitamins for your BP? Just something to think about.
The debate is, is UV really beneficial or not, since I am not giving my snakes UV at night, mind as well give them it during the day while they are in their hides, whether they get any or not, won't harm them in anyway. If you read this link, its interesting, there may be signs that extra Vitamin D can be transferred to the eggs of a female BP.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is...captive_snakes

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i shared a published scientific study, and in the link you posted, the latest article cited by a member is from 2013 so...got any better sources?

also this is directly copied from your link, from the first poster:

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Of course it is also possible that ball pythons do not synthesise vitamin D3 from UVB, but obtain all they need from their diet. Very high serum 25(OH)D3 in the experimental group, initially, before they had ever experienced UVB, clearly indicates that dietary supplementation with D3 works in this species

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if you have any studies about UVB absorption of wild rodents in Africa vs captive bred for food, send it my way.

and the bit you cited about eggs? the poster said the study cannot claim that to be true! it's just speculation. from your own link:

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All the females in the experimental group (a batch from one owner) had extremely high 25(OH)D3 levels initially, compared to the control group (a batch from another owner) so the groups were not comparable from the start. Also, the females in both groups had far higher 25(OH)D3 levels than the males, both at the start and the end... the authors discuss the possibility of egg production stimulating raised serum 25(OH)D3 levels in these females. This surely raises the question as to whether, if vitamin D3 synthesis was indeed occurring in the females given UVB, any extra produced could have been transferred to developing eggs - which require high levels of vitamin D for embryonic development.

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im not arguing either, but you have yet to prove what you're saying is true.

But I have proved what I'm saying is true. Ball pythons in the wild are exposed to Sunlight every single day through the moon and every time they eat.

In captivity breeder mice 90% of the time are just kept in a box or what not just bulking up to get eaten. While in the wild they are exposed to sunlight, eat live foods that contain vitamin D. So in theory most likely the mice being fed to our snakes aren't giving much vitamin D.
And then some owners like yourself are covering all 3 sides, plus the snake is in its hide all day so is it getting any UV at all? I agree BP probably need the smallest amount of UV for their bodies and probably nothing any owner needs to worry about. But I believe more UV is beneficial in captivity cause our creatures may not be out in Africa roaming but at least we can try to give them an environment some what similar.

But to each their, as long as a snake is eating and shedding well and no signs of stress it's a happy snake. And I don't disagree with the 3 covered sides, that's why I asked about it but I'm just staying why I took a different approach

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

But I have proved what I'm saying is true. Ball pythons in the wild are exposed to Sunlight every single day through the moon and every time they eat.

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this is the post i first replied to:

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

Plus any sun light a snake gets is more beneficial as Vitamin D is good for a snake. With or without the sun shining on the tank, the ball is probably going to be in its hide during the day, sunshine is going be more positive than negative.

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and the link you shared says:

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Of course it is also possible that ball pythons do not synthesise vitamin D3 from UVB, but obtain all they need from their diet.

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and the study i shared also states that supplemental UV did nothing to raise calcium absorption in the experimental group.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

In captivity breeder mice 90% of the time are just kept in a box or what not just bulking up to get eaten. While in the wild they are exposed to sunlight, eat live foods that contain vitamin D. So in theory most likely the mice being fed to our snakes aren't giving much vitamin D.

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this argument would hold merit if we knew how much Vitamin D a snake "needs" to be a healthy snake, let alone how much for any additional "benefits" to show from it. no one knows; there are no studies on how much vitamin D is necessary for a ball python diet.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

But I believe more UV is beneficial in captivity cause our creatures may not be out in Africa roaming but at least we can try to give them an environment some what similar.

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the link you posted disagrees with you tho?

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

But to each their, as long as a snake is eating and shedding well and no signs of stress it's a happy snake. And I don't disagree with the 3 covered sides, that's why I asked about it but I'm just staying why I took a different approach

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exactly. [emoji106] im not "anti light" by any stretch, but i like data and studies. [emoji6]

I'd hope the sun isn't shining into your glass tank, that's an excellent way to roast an animal and you aren't getting them any benefit of sunlight that way anyhow.