Respiratory Infection - how should I modify my enclosure?

My ball python is showing early symptoms of a respiratory infection - clicking/popping noises when breathing, taking some open mouth breaths/yawning, but I haven't seen any mucus coming from the nose or mouth. I'm not exactly sure of the cause, my best guess it improper humidity, but I"m not 100% sure. The lowest the humidity gets is 40%, but I mist the cage twice a day and keep a damp towel over 3/4 of the enclosure, and that raises humidity to 50-60 (it's a glass enclosure with a screen top). I'm planning to try a week's worth of treatments using the reptifogger-F10 treatment and see if that will improve symptoms, but there is also an exotic pet vet 40 minutes from me that I'm planning to take her to if signs don't improve.

I'm wondering how I should modify her enclosure to better help her while she has this respiratory infection. To add to the complexity, she also just starting getting cloudy eyes indicating a shed within the next week. What should I do? I've read that for RI to simplify the enclosure to make it easier to clean daily (take out the substrate and use paper towels/newspaper as bedding while she is sick, take out everything except two hides and a water dish). Should I replace her bedding and water daily then? Disinfect her hides daily as well? Will raising humidity to help her shed process be okay if she has an RI, too?

Also, I don't have a temperature-controlled UTH - only a day/night heat lamp. I've read good and bad things about both heat sources - UTHs are better for underbelly heat to help digestion, but then I've also read that doesn't really matter and a heat lamp will do fine. What do you think? I've thought about switching to a UTH, as I think if humidity is the issue, a heat lamp is drying out the enclosure more than a UTH would. Where can I purchase a reputable temperature-controlled UTH? My local pet store only has the stick-on ZooMed ones that are not temp-controlled.

This is my first time dealing with RI in a snake, and I feel really bad and hope I can do my best to help to help her before it gets too serious. My reptifogger will be here tomorrow - should I try this treatment for a few days and if there's no improvement, go to the vet? Or should I make a vet appointment right away, and make sure they do a culture to identify what kind of RI it is? Thanks in advance.

What are your temperatures? It sounds like you dont have the heating system dialed in very well at all.
That is likely the cause. Can you post a photo of your setup, and list exactly what are your heat sources, thermostat controls, and thermometer measurements?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

What are your temperatures? It sounds like you dont have the heating system dialed in very well at all.
That is likely the cause. Can you post a photo of your setup, and list exactly what are your heat sources, thermostat controls, and thermometer measurements?


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Agreed. Many things to say, but better to respond more when we have better info from you.

I will say glass enclosures are not a good choice for any snake that needs humidity.

Spraying to raise humidity 2X a day is indicative of that and not good. If you have to spray, spray with warm water, and that will still make temps wonky.

UTH's need to be regulated. All heat sources do. You do this with a thermostat, it doesn't matter if the heating element has one or not, you need to add it.

Are you checking temps with a temp gun?

Again, there could be a ton of things going on here. Please respond when able.

I can't seem to figure out how to upload a photo to my post - I saved some to my desktop but the post does not allow me to upload them this way, unfortunately. To give you a better picture, she is in a 20L tank, I have a temp gauge on the cool side that is about 75-80F, and a temp gauge and humidity gauge on the warm side, with temps 90-95F, and humidity is at about 50 right now. I have a 75W heat lamp sitting on top the hot side, and I do 12 hours of the "white" light, and 12 hours of the nighttime "red" light. The damp towel I was taking about is placed over most of the cool side - so, the humidity gauge on the hot side may present a % that is slightly less than the humidity on the cool side where the towel is sitting on top the enclosure. I also use I think it's called Eco-earth coconut fiber bedding - the brick you place in water and it absorbs the water to become loose substrate. I have hides on both sides, a driftwood branch in the middle, and two small fake plants.

I hope this response gives you a better visual since I cannot provide a photo - sorry...

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Originally Posted by targciv

I can't seem to figure out how to upload a photo to my post - I saved some to my desktop but the post does not allow me to upload them this way, unfortunately. To give you a better picture, she is in a 20L tank, I have a temp gauge on the cool side that is about 75-80F, and a temp gauge and humidity gauge on the warm side, with temps 90-95F, and humidity is at about 50 right now. I have a 75W heat lamp sitting on top the hot side, and I do 12 hours of the "white" light, and 12 hours of the nighttime "red" light. The damp towel I was taking about is placed over most of the cool side - so, the humidity gauge on the hot side may present a % that is slightly less than the humidity on the cool side where the towel is sitting on top the enclosure. I also use I think it's called Eco-earth coconut fiber bedding - the brick you place in water and it absorbs the water to become loose substrate. I have hides on both sides, a driftwood branch in the middle, and two small fake plants.

I hope this response gives you a better visual since I cannot provide a photo - sorry...

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Again, are you taking temps with a temp gun?

It sounds like you are using temp gauges and relying on them for air temp. Ground temp could be very different, especially with a UTH - that sounds unregulated - that heats the bottom of the tank but not the air.

75F is too low especially with high humidity - and fluctuating humidity. 95F is too hot, and it could be hotter on the ground.

Again, are you regulating your temps with a thermostat? It sounds like you are not. Please advise on this.

20G too small for anything other than a juvenile BP, IMO, and terrible for temp gradients and humidity, etc.

Please get accurate temps with a temp gun ASAP then report.

Frankly, the whole setup sounds like a nightmare to me.

I would not be surprised if your BP has an RI.

Not trying to be a jerk, but a well kept BP usually = a healthy BP. Now you are probably going to have spend way more money than a proper setup would have been and put the snake through hell if it has an RI.

I am not trying to make you feel bad now, and I know you want what's best for your BP. However, the quicker you understand and implement this practice (proper setup and husbandry is the #1 requirement for any reptile), the happier everyone involved will be.

Please advise on the questions above and good luck. Also, plan to get a thermostat(s) ASAP.

I do not have a UTH - just a dual ceramic heat lamp (75W) with a daytime and nighttime bulb. The temp and humidity gauges are higher up in the tank, so closer to the heat source. I am wondering if I should switch to a UTH instead because I’ve heard things about bp’s needing belly heat rather than aerial heat, plus if humidity is an issue, I’m wondering if the lamp is drying the air more than a UTH would.

Do not have a temp gun - where can I order a reputable one?

She is a juvenile also. I’ve had her for about a month, I’ve fed her successfully once a week since I’ve had her with no issues.

no offense taken -I’ve only owned 2 corn snakes before, and this is my first bp. You guys are the experts - any and all advice is tremendously appreciated.

Im not sure your snake has a RI. My snakes make a weez before shedding. I also have a BP that has had a Click since she was born. Each time her tongue comes out theres a click.
Keep a eye on her but honestly you didnt say anything to make me believe she has one except the fact the Husbandry is wrong.
If I understood you correctly your using Heat Lamps only. Also your using thermometers that take Air temp not thermometers that have a Probe to attach to a surface.
I cant go over what your doing incorrectly or Id just be starting over. You need Suface temps of 88min-90max for a Hot hide and 78min-81 in the Cool Hide. Please go to the Sticky "how to set up a glass enclosure". All your info is there.
Otherwise your going to have 10 people asking you 10 questions and its going to be confusing. Read the sticky and you'll understand. There are Pics too.
As far as Posting Pics. Just download Tapatalk on your phone then its like FB and you post from Camera Roll.


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I’ll be sure to check out that sticky, thank you. If you saw in my original post, she is open-mouth breathing as well. I know she’s about to shed, but the open-mouth breathing is what makes me think she has RI. She didn’t exhibit any of the breathing abnormalities since I got her up until now.

I am also hoping not an RI. Hopefully the shed will correct everything, along with proper husbandry.

You can order a temp gun from amazon, but I would run to home depot or something similar and get one ASAP.

A laser temp gun.

You will have to calibrate it though. You will have to hit something you know the temp of, like your home thermostat, and adjust when reading the tank from the same distance.

In other words, if the thermostat reads 71F and the temp gun reads 70F, you will adjust up one degree F from what you read on the temp gun.

This has to be done each time at least until you are confident with temps in your cage and room temps, etc.

I would get a thermostat in the meantime and consider a UTH as well. If you can get a thermostat that does both lights and UTH, that would be ideal.

A dimmer can work in the meantime (also from home depot), but is not a reliable solution.

I would also be considering getting a proper enclosure soon.

Corn snakes are about 75% more forgiving than BP's regarding husbandry.

I have both snakes.

Good luck and keep us in the loop!

Thank you for the advice so far!

Is it nornal for BPs to show signs that may seem like an RI as they begin to show signs of the shed process? The clicking breathing seems like something that would happen, but the mouth breathing concerns me.

Back to one of my original questions - what is your opinion on the reptifogger and F10 box treatment and going to the vet this week? Her going into shed makes these signs confusing, so I’m hoping, too, the shed may get rid of her breathing issues. But I’m nervous to wait a week until after the shed to find the problems are still persisting, and I haven to tried to treat her in the meantike (other than improving husbandry).

And if it is an RI, how should I modify her enclosure? Lower or raise humidity? Replace substrate with newspaper/paper towels and replace daily? Disinfect hides and water dish daily? Change water daily?

I’ll definitely look into finding a UTH, temp regulators for my heat sources, and a temp gun in the meantime.

And what you said about a proper enclosure, do you think I should transfer her to a plastic tub?

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by targciv

Thank you for the advice so far!

Is it nornal for BPs to show signs that may seem like an RI as they begin to show signs of the shed process? The clicking breathing seems like something that would happen, but the mouth breathing concerns me.

Back to one of my original questions - what is your opinion on the reptifogger and F10 box treatment and going to the vet this week? Her going into shed makes these signs confusing, so I’m hoping, too, the shed may get rid of her breathing issues. But I’m nervous to wait a week until after the shed to find the problems are still persisting, and I haven to tried to treat her in the meantike (other than improving husbandry).

And if it is an RI, how should I modify her enclosure? Lower or raise humidity? Replace substrate with newspaper/paper towels and replace daily? Disinfect hides and water dish daily? Change water daily?

I’ll definitely look into finding a UTH, temp regulators for my heat sources, and a temp gun in the meantime.

And what you said about a proper enclosure, do you think I should transfer her to a plastic tub?

Thanks!

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The F10sc has worked for some people at early stages. Make sure its the F10SC ONLY. The other F10's can Kill your snake.
I now see you said open mouth breathing. Thats not good. I wouldn't say Humidity did it, Id say incorrect temps. Ive had Pythons for 30 years and 1/2 of that was normal 30% house Humidity back in the 90's-early 2000's. What I did have were bad sheds all the time. Now that we have learned so much our snakes are a lot healthier. Id get a UTH on a Jumpstart Thermostat if i was you. You asked about Regulated UTH's. Never heard of one, you need to hook them up to one. ZooMed UTH mats are fine. Dont stick them to the tank. Read the Sticky I mentioned under Husbandry Sub Forum. It shows how to use Metal Tape so if you want to move the UTH or switch tanks you can without ruining it by trying to unstick it.
This is all in the Thread Sticky. Check it out. Its great.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-With-Pictures!


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PS: around 3 min is about the F10sc nebulizer and Make Sure that snake stays warm right now. No cool Drafts!!!
https://youtu.be/pJCnPfuqaBM


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I would recommend moving your temperature sensors lower, as close to the ground as you can, since that's where your bp will spend most of its time. I also definitely recommend an IR Temp Gun, as mentioned before. I picked one up at home depot for around $20, and I check the ground temp near both of my hides every day. There is a big difference between ground and air temperatures. I would be less concerned about getting a heat mat, but would save up for a good thermostat (Herpstat is highly recommended for it's redundant safety measures.) Finally, I'd try to get a PVC tank for him. I've found my environment is much more stable now that I've switched from a glass tank, but this will probably be something you have to wait for since they aren't the cheapest. Good luck, and we all hope your little guy gets better soon! Keep us updated!

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UPDATE (3/8)

I've scheduled a vet appointment for next Tuesday, and in the meantime have been using 3ccs of F10 SC in 500 mL of filtered water in a reptifogger machine, and fogging my snake for 20 min a day for the past 4 days in a 3 qt plastic tub. Today, she also shed her skin. When I handled her later in the day, there were absolutely no breathing issues. I handled her for about 10-15 minutes, and there were no clicking/popping sounds from her body, nor any open mouth breathing. Maybe these breathing issues were because she was going into shed? The open-mouth breathing was what had me convinced it was an RI, but now she seems perfectly fine, curious, actively exploring when I handle her. I'm still planning to take her to the vet on Tuesday, but until then I will continue the F10 treatment. I've also ordered a UTH, thermostat, light dimmer, and digital thermometer, which will all arrive tomorrow, and I'm planning to clean her enclosure then set these new items up the way the sticky on how to set up a glass enclosure directs. Here's hoping for a healthier future for Bella :) Thank you to everyone for your advice and resources

Quote:

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Originally Posted by targciv

UPDATE (3/8)

I've scheduled a vet appointment for next Tuesday, and in the meantime have been using 3ccs of F10 SC in 500 mL of filtered water in a reptifogger machine, and fogging my snake for 20 min a day for the past 4 days in a 3 qt plastic tub. Today, she also shed her skin. When I handled her later in the day, there were absolutely no breathing issues. I handled her for about 10-15 minutes, and there were no clicking/popping sounds from her body, nor any open mouth breathing. Maybe these breathing issues were because she was going into shed? The open-mouth breathing was what had me convinced it was an RI, but now she seems perfectly fine, curious, actively exploring when I handle her. I'm still planning to take her to the vet on Tuesday, but until then I will continue the F10 treatment. I've also ordered a UTH, thermostat, light dimmer, and digital thermometer, which will all arrive tomorrow, and I'm planning to clean her enclosure then set these new items up the way the sticky on how to set up a glass enclosure directs. Here's hoping for a healthier future for Bella :) Thank you to everyone for your advice and resources

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Smart move on getting the enclosure right! That should prevent future problems.

In the meantime, wishing you and Bella good luck at the vet! Hope she's fine, but if she needs treatment, I hope she recovers quickly.

Good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by targciv

UPDATE (3/8)

I've scheduled a vet appointment for next Tuesday, and in the meantime have been using 3ccs of F10 SC in 500 mL of filtered water in a reptifogger machine, and fogging my snake for 20 min a day for the past 4 days in a 3 qt plastic tub. Today, she also shed her skin. When I handled her later in the day, there were absolutely no breathing issues. I handled her for about 10-15 minutes, and there were no clicking/popping sounds from her body, nor any open mouth breathing. Maybe these breathing issues were because she was going into shed? The open-mouth breathing was what had me convinced it was an RI, but now she seems perfectly fine, curious, actively exploring when I handle her. I'm still planning to take her to the vet on Tuesday, but until then I will continue the F10 treatment. I've also ordered a UTH, thermostat, light dimmer, and digital thermometer, which will all arrive tomorrow, and I'm planning to clean her enclosure then set these new items up the way the sticky on how to set up a glass enclosure directs. Here's hoping for a healthier future for Bella :) Thank you to everyone for your advice and resources

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Watch that light dimmer. I dont like them st all. I think there dangerous & id rather put sheets of metal between the uth & tank to lower the temp of a uth.
I tried a dimmer on a Quarantine tank and one day while i was at work the temp in the house went from 75 to 85 and that changed the Hot Spot from 90 to 100. Remember the same power is will be sent no matter what the surroundings are and they dont regulate like a Tstat. Id get a $30 Jumpstart before any $15.99 Dimmer. IMO




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I ordered the jumpstart thermostat to go along with my UTH, and the light dimmer for the ceramic heat bulbs I have right now. Did you mean not to try the light dimmer with a UTH, or with the lights?