Pet BP passed away - Cause of Death?

Hi Everyone,

I owned a male ball python, named Maurice, since 2010. He was captive bread and I got him when he was only about 12 inches long or so, definitely just a baby. Over the past 7 years, he always ate well (live mice, then rats) and I always monitored his feedings to make sure he was never bitten or subsequently injured by his prey. His tank is consistently between 73-78 degrees, with a heated area that gets to about 88-90 degrees. Maurice was just over 3 feet long, and typically ate small rats. The pet stores here rarely have rats in stock because they are gone by the end of the first day they arrive. If I can't get him a rat, I always feed him 2 small mice, back to back. He never had any issues with this.

On Thursday of last week, I had to leave home for a business trip and did not return until midday on Monday. Prior to leaving, I fed Maurice his two mice and made sure he had plenty of water, checked his temps, etc. Everything seemed totally normal. When I arrived home on Monday evening, I checked on him and didn't notice anything unusual. On Tuesday morning, I noticed a very strange smell coming from his tank. When I went to check on him, I noticed that he had regurgitated at least one of the mice (it was not digested, so it's possible that he regurgitated it not long after I left and I did not notice it because it was in one of his hides). That's when I noticed the smell was coming from him. I picked him up and noticed he was limp, and there was a drop of some liquid coming out of his mouth. I don't know if he was dead at this point, but there was no movement or breathing. I was, and am, completely devastated.

I owned Maurice for nearly 8 years and he had never been sick or had any noticeable health problems. I know it would just be speculation, and the only way to be sure would to be to pay for a necropsy (I won't do that, he doesn't deserve to be cut up). Can anyone speculate what may have caused my baby boy's death?

Sincere thanks,

Brandon

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Originally Posted by btshipp

Hi Everyone,

I owned a male ball python, named Maurice, since 2010. He was captive bread and I got him when he was only about 12 inches long or so, definitely just a baby. Over the past 7 years, he always ate well (live mice, then rats) and I always monitored his feedings to make sure he was never bitten or subsequently injured by his prey. His tank is consistently between 73-78 degrees, with a heated area that gets to about 88-90 degrees. Maurice was just over 3 feet long, and typically ate small rats. The pet stores here rarely have rats in stock because they are gone by the end of the first day they arrive. If I can't get him a rat, I always feed him 2 small mice, back to back. He never had any issues with this.

On Thursday of last week, I had to leave home for a business trip and did not return until midday on Monday. Prior to leaving, I fed Maurice his two mice and made sure he had plenty of water, checked his temps, etc. Everything seemed totally normal. When I arrived home on Monday evening, I checked on him and didn't notice anything unusual. On Tuesday morning, I noticed a very strange smell coming from his tank. When I went to check on him, I noticed that he had regurgitated at least one of the mice (it was not digested, so it's possible that he regurgitated it not long after I left and I did not notice it because it was in one of his hides). That's when I noticed the smell was coming from him. I picked him up and noticed he was limp, and there was a drop of some liquid coming out of his mouth. I don't know if he was dead at this point, but there was no movement or breathing. I was, and am, completely devastated.

I owned Maurice for nearly 8 years and he had never been sick or had any noticeable health problems. I know it would just be speculation, and the only way to be sure would to be to pay for a necropsy (I won't do that, he doesn't deserve to be cut up). Can anyone speculate what may have caused my baby boy's death?

Sincere thanks,

Brandon

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I have no idea, but am terribly sorry for your loss. I would be devastated as well!

Hang in there and my thoughts are with you.

Hi Brandon, I'm very sorry for your loss.
Is there a chance your heating source failed? (was it on when you came home?) Possible a power outage could have knocked it out?

There's not really any way for us to tell beyond what you know (vet necropsy) and even then results are not guaranteed to be found.
Again, I'm very sorry.

I'm very sorry for your loss. When I lost my first snake I immediately refrigerated him and and took him for a necropsy the next morning. I wasn't expecting his death, was absolutely devastated, and just had to know what happened to him. I had to know if it was something I did.

Anything the members here tell you will be pure speculation. A necropsy is probably as close as you'l get to the cause of death, but it may be too late for that depending on his current condition (whether he's preserved or not).

In any case, it totally sucks to lose a loved one. So sorry.

Thanks for the condolences everyone, most people don't sympathize with the death of a reptile, it's just as bad as a dog or cat. The heat source didn't fail to the best of my knowledge, it was on when I came home and the house is never cooler than 72 degrees anyway. Even if it did fail, he's lived without one for a couple weeks when I was in Africa about 3 years ago.

Hilabeans, were they able to determine the COD for your first snake? It's out of the question for me now as I've buried him. :tears:

Very sorry to hear about your loss. That really sucks! :( It sounds like your cool side temperatures were definitely on the low side, but your hot side temperatures sound fine. As others have already said, any guesses we could make would only be speculation, but you almost have to give serious consideration to the mice you fed him on the day of his death for him to have suddenly regurgitated and simply die like that... I don't know if there are parasites that can kill a snake that fast, which the mice could have had? Could the mice have still been alive when he swallowed them and they caused internal injuries? I've never heard of that happening, but maybe some of these other guys have...

Like the others said, a necropsy will be ypur only shot of really knowing.

Beyond that, I can only offer my most sincere condolences for your loss.

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Originally Posted by btshipp

Hilabeans, were they able to determine the COD for your first snake? It's out of the question for me now as I've buried him. :tears:

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Yes. A significant infection in his liver. It was slow growing and he was showing symptoms of being "off" for weeks. But his symptoms at the time more logically pointed to a million other possible things that I was addressing, so a vet visit never quite seemed warranted. His death was sudden and unexpected. He was very young and my first snake.

His loss shredded me. I felt like I failed him. You know...hindsight...

This community was wonderful to me throughout, though. You need to be around those who truly appreciate what it's like to love and lose these guys, and it can be hard to find in the "real world".

Sounds like some sort of food poisoning/parasites/digestion. Or a coincidence that he regurgitated and then died? It doesn't matter now, much sympathy for your loss.

Wow, this really is sad. I am truly sorry for your loss. Certainly sudden death and its wide range of possibilities are always something we all have to deal with as keepers. However the true, definitive way to know in this case would've been a necropsy. Sorry once again. :(

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

Very sorry to hear about your loss. That really sucks! :( It sounds like your cool side temperatures were definitely on the low side, but your hot side temperatures sound fine. As others have already said, any guesses we could make would only be speculation, but you almost have to give serious consideration to the mice you fed him on the day of his death for him to have suddenly regurgitated and simply die like that... I don't know if there are parasites that can kill a snake that fast, which the mice could have had? Could the mice have still been alive when he swallowed them and they caused internal injuries? I've never heard of that happening, but maybe some of these other guys have...

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My first and only thought so far is that it had to have something to do with the mice, meaning they either had some sort of parasite or infection that was not killed by Maurice's digestion process...although they didn't really look very digested. Also, he's a bit of a slow eater, so if the mouse was still alive I think we'd have noticed, but maybe not.

Either way, thank you ALL for your kind words and support, I really appreciate.

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Originally Posted by hilabeans

His loss shredded me. I felt like I failed him. You know...hindsight...

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Man, that's exactly how I feel now. I was balling while I buried him last night, my wife just didn't get it. I felt like if I had only paid more attention to him and checked on him multiple times a day instead of just once a day and sometimes every other day if he had just eaten. By "checked on him" I mean opening the top and making sure he's active and happy.

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Originally Posted by btshipp

Man, that's exactly how I feel now. I was balling while I buried him last night, my wife just didn't get it. I felt like if I had only paid more attention to him and checked on him multiple times a day instead of just once a day and sometimes every other day if he had just eaten. By "checked on him" I mean opening the top and making sure he's active and happy.

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Reptiles are particularly adept at hiding illness; it's a survival trait. You may not have noticed anything amiss.

I've had several reptiles pass away and where COD wasn't obvious (like the rescue BP I took in last year with bad burns) I did have a necropsy done not only to try to determine COD, but also to rule out potential causes like highly contagious, collection-killing diseases.

My condolences :tears:

You've had that baby for so long and were no doubt very much attached. As to what happened ?

It "seems" to be somehow connected to the last feeding, but without a necropsy its all just guess work.

Were the mice snacking on poison before being sold? Were they sick? Did something go wrong with your BP killing and eating them? It could be any of those, or the temp fluctuated or he developed a illness.

You did what you could and you gave him a good life. That is all we can do at times.

Don't beat yourself up, your snake had so much more then so many of them have.

Take your time to grief, and then give another little snake a good life. That is one good way to honor the life of the baby you lost..

I am so sorry this happened. It can be frustrating not knowing.

Like bcr229 said, they mask illness so you could have not known until too late. While a full blown parasite infection can lead to death in rare cases like intestinal blockage, parasites can lead to death if the snake was severely compromised. You would have long noticed it not gaining weight and dehydration before you experienced death by parasite compromise.

Cancer, congenital defects, organ failure, impaction, bacterial or viral infection, toxins, these all can lead to death but as it is always pointed out, you can't know unless you pay a vet to dissect the snake.

One question was how heavy was this snake? One of the main reasons to be careful overfeeding snakes is they can die from obesity much sooner than they would from old age. Heart disease is actually a common ailment in captive snakes overfed. When a snake eats, the organs actually engorge many times the normal amount. If the snake has been constantly power fed or overfed for years, those organs never get the chance to fully return to normal and they can become weakened and clogged.

Sorry for your loss, healing ~hugs~ from across the miles. :tears:

Sorry for your loss.

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Originally Posted by zina10

My condolences :tears:

You've had that baby for so long and were no doubt very much attached. As to what happened ?

It "seems" to be somehow connected to the last feeding, but without a necropsy its all just guess work.

Were the mice snacking on poison before being sold? Were they sick? Did something go wrong with your BP killing and eating them? It could be any of those, or the temp fluctuated or he developed a illness.

You did what you could and you gave him a good life. That is all we can do at times.

Don't beat yourself up, your snake had so much more then so many of them have.

Take your time to grief, and then give another little snake a good life. That is one good way to honor the life of the baby you lost..

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Aw thanks Zina, that's a very kind thing to say and does make me feel better. I run a bit of a zoo in my home, at one point we had a cat, dog, two baby squirrels, a Carolina Anole (rescued after freezing on my porch in February 2017, released in April 2017), and Maurice the BP. I'm going to have to take a little while to get over this one before I get my next snake. I'm actually undergoing a career change now to move towards veterinary science before it's too late and I'm too embedded in my current field. I just don't know if I'll be able to handle it when animals don't make it.

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Originally Posted by btshipp

Aw thanks Zina, that's a very kind thing to say and does make me feel better. I run a bit of a zoo in my home, at one point we had a cat, dog, two baby squirrels, a Carolina Anole (rescued after freezing on my porch in February 2017, released in April 2017), and Maurice the BP. I'm going to have to take a little while to get over this one before I get my next snake. I'm actually undergoing a career change now to move towards veterinary science before it's too late and I'm too embedded in my current field. I just don't know if I'll be able to handle it when animals don't make it.

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I tried working for a vet when I was a kid thinking about veterinary school. EPIC FAIL! I was so miserable every time an animal had to be put down or was in pain.

Wise, thoughtful, and respectful of you to wait and honor your lost friend. Also very smart to wait until your head is in the game to get another snake.

I've been there. I've put dogs down, lost reptiles, and had to put my Beardie, George, down in 2016 after 11 years with me. He developed pancreatitis and was in pain whenever he ate. I didn't want to put him through the surgery to buy him 6 months to a year. I cried like a baby and it took me a year to get Frank, my Blue Tongue Skink.

I don't care what other people say, you can bond with any animal. I love all creatures and cannot even feed live food to snakes (I feed everyone F/T). Losing a companion, furry or scaly, it doesn't matter, it hurts, a lot.

Good luck healing and mourning. You will get through this.

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Originally Posted by dakski

I tried working for a vet when I was a kid thinking about veterinary school. EPIC FAIL! I was so miserable every time an animal had to be put down or was in pain.

Wise, thoughtful, and respectful of you to wait and honor your lost friend. Also very smart to wait until your head is in the game to get another snake.

I've been there. I've put dogs down, lost reptiles, and had to put my Beardie, George, down in 2016 after 11 years with me. He developed pancreatitis and was in pain whenever he ate. I didn't want to put him through the surgery to buy him 6 months to a year. I cried like a baby and it took me a year to get Frank, my Blue Tongue Skink.

I don't care what other people say, you can bond with any animal. I love all creatures and cannot even feed live food to snakes (I feed everyone F/T). Losing a companion, furry or scaly, it doesn't matter, it hurts, a lot.

Good luck healing and mourning. You will get through this.

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Thank you Dakski, sounds like you and I are very similar. Maurice would only eat live food, we tried F/T over 10 times and even recently, he never wanted anything to do with it. But I always hated having to watch the mice or rats die...it's a requirement though with live prey in order to avoid injuries to your pet.

It appears as though you've had a rougher run than myself, my sincere condolences for all of that and it sounds like it's made you a stronger person. I am completely BLOWN AWAY by the support offered on this forum. I wouldn't have found it anywhere else and it's SO SO SO appreciated.

I don't think his death had much to do with the mice. Regurtitation (sorry for the bad spelling) may be more of a sign of what was already making your snake sick. Reptiles hide their illnesses so well they can fool even veterinarians. Eating is not a good indicator of illness. My very sick rescue bearded dragon was eating and pooping fine. But she was suffering from months of a yellow fungus infection and eggs inside of her were crushed and all over the abdomen cavity.

You had invested time, money and love to a pet for 8 years. That is longer than most marriages lol. That is a commitment many will not accept. Feeling guilty and doubting yourself will linger and it is normal. As time goes on, please remember that 8 years of any relationship is worth grieving over and you must have done something right if your snake lived for that long. Sometimes, animals including people are born with things that barely works or fails earlier than others, and it is mother nature's way of keeping life and death balanced, despite man's best efforts to prevent so.

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Originally Posted by btshipp

Thank you Dakski, sounds like you and I are very similar. Maurice would only eat live food, we tried F/T over 10 times and even recently, he never wanted anything to do with it. But I always hated having to watch the mice or rats die...it's a requirement though with live prey in order to avoid injuries to your pet.

It appears as though you've had a rougher run than myself, my sincere condolences for all of that and it sounds like it's made you a stronger person. I am completely BLOWN AWAY by the support offered on this forum. I wouldn't have found it anywhere else and it's SO SO SO appreciated.

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No judgment! I understand BP's who only eat live have to eat too! I know it happens in nature, I just cannot do it myself. I feel the same ways about hunting. If you hunt for food and/or population control, I understand it's a necessary evil on some level. I could never shoot a defenseless animal. Just me. I don't even fish! I feel bad for the fish!

I have also heard horror stories about live feedings gone wrong (especially with big rats) and have no idea what to do if my BP, Shayna, decided to refuse a meal!

I am not a rodent fan. I had a total jerk of a gerbil as a kid. Those bites hurt more than BCI bites!

I got Shayna, my BP, when she was about 200G, and the breeder had been feeding her F/T for a few meals with no issues. I waited to make sure she would reliably eat F/T before I bought her. Aside from her yearly 5 month winter fasts, she eats well and happily on F/T.

My corn snake and BCI have killer feed responses and would eat anything, anywhere, anytime! So F/T is all they have ever known and I think they could care less; it's more about FEED ME!!!! than whether it's alive and moving or not!

Anyway, do not worry about me.

I agree, this site is awesome. I even started a thread about it. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...44#post2598044

The people here do understand. They try to empathize as much as possible and many, unfortunately, can sympathize, with what you are going through.

I am sorry brother. Again, hang in, and we will be here to help you through and when you are ready to move on too!

Sorry for your loss.

Sent from my N9560 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

I don't think his death had much to do with the mice. Regurtitation (sorry for the bad spelling) may be more of a sign of what was already making your snake sick. Reptiles hide their illnesses so well they can fool even veterinarians. Eating is not a good indicator of illness. My very sick rescue bearded dragon was eating and pooping fine. But she was suffering from months of a yellow fungus infection and eggs inside of her were crushed and all over the abdomen cavity.

You had invested time, money and love to a pet for 8 years. That is longer than most marriages lol. That is a commitment many will not accept. Feeling guilty and doubting yourself will linger and it is normal. As time goes on, please remember that 8 years of any relationship is worth grieving over and you must have done something right if your snake lived for that long. Sometimes, animals including people are born with things that barely works or fails earlier than others, and it is mother nature's way of keeping life and death balanced, despite man's best efforts to prevent so.

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Well said, Cheesenugget! And sorry for your loss; heartbreaking.

8 years is longer than my marriage!

That's a good thing though. That was one loss I was happy to take!

Not trying to steal the thread, but having been divorced, had kidney disease since I was 23, and been a kidney transplant recipient for almost 6 years now, I know how to cherish everything and look on the bright side.

Sometimes things have a way of working out.

I wouldn't be living with Katie, who is my soulmate, if not for the divorce, and timing of the divorce. I might have died last night when I had an allergic reaction to antibiotics and my face swelled up and Katie (a doctor of PT) made me go to the ER (I am stubborn and don't complain anymore unless I am in agony - not good - I am learning). Of course my BP whistles once, or one of my dogs limps for 2 seconds, and it's a vet visit!

I think everything that happens makes us who we are. I like who I am, for the most part (still a work in progress), and I wouldn't be who I am today without all the joy, pain, laughs, and sorrow, I have experienced.

Everything in life makes us the people we are. Decisions on how to handle/cope with these things (good and bad) define us.

There is no sweet without the sour.

Anyway, I am glad you got 8 years of joy with your buddy. Try to cherish those memories and know you did the best you could for him. Some things are out of our control. Be strong. Keep mourning knowing his memory will live on in you and there is light at the end of the tunnel; time does tend to heal these wounds.

All the best,

David