Concerned about corkscrewing in a spider PT. 2

I will start a new thread for simplicity sake since some people are unable to follow the previous one.

Overview: I picked up a spider ball python who has what appears to be a very serious head wobble from stress or potentially something else, like damage from overheating.

How can I post a video to show what he is doing?

I walked into the room today and he was upside down with his head underwater again and it took him about 20 seconds of struggling to get himself out. Most of yesterday and today he has been still and not moving around like this but then again he started his very strange movement. Last night however, I found him with the back half of himself turned over so that his belly was facing almost up. I have never seen a snake, including spiders, do that before.

Has anyone seen a spider or any other snake lay like that?

He continues to do small corkscrews on the ground, often ending up upside down and unable to right himself

This is more than a spider wobble, multiple people including myself expressed this. Upload to youtube then paste link here.

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Personally, if it keeps acting like you described, with its head upside down in the water bowl...I would cull it. Also, I would never own a spider in the first place, though I don't judge people that do.

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Originally Posted by oodaT

This is more than a spider wobble, multiple people including myself expressed this. Upload to youtube then paste link here.

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Some said it was more, others said it was stress and I was overreacting. I will try to post a video to youtube now.

As I've said in the other thread, imho there is more going on then just the "spider thing" or head wobble. Of course I could be wrong, though..

This sounds like severe neurological damage.

Can be caused by many things. Since the snake wasn't in your possession until very recently, any damage due to fumes (bug treatments, glues, paint, etc) or heat could have happened at the former home and you probably will never find out for sure.

I would be far more worried about the possibility of a serious disease. No one should be paranoid and see "IBD" in every funky thing a snake does, BUT its also not smart to just ignore the possibilities esp in light of the snakes behavior. And its not just IBD, there are other serious diseases to worry about.

All you can do is either wait and see if the snake gets better, take it to a Vet and get any test that can be done on a living animal, or put the snake down.

Either way, I would be going out of my way to practice the STRICTEST quarantine possible.

This is quite honestly some of the less drastic movements
he has made and if I am able to video the more severe movement I will post it and share here.
https://youtu.be/AOGyfZ-hLJI

That there "could" be a severe Spider neuro problem. BUT, I don't think the snake would have thrived and grown that big with that severe of a problem.

On top of that you say that isn't the worse he does, and that he does it even when everything is low key, low stress.

Is he in a rack ? Is it a bit darker normally?

What I would do for now is to give him a smaller waterdish and keep it somewhat shallow. Enough to drink of course, but so he can't drown himself. Keep him in a dark place or give him hides. It may calm him.

The snake is mentally damaged, wether genetic or environmental, it appears to be pretty whack. Especially if it is often more severe, as you described.

Him and the other snakes I picked up are all in tubs on my office desk with heat tape as a quarantine area. My other snakes are downstairs while these ones are upstairs.

They are all in tubs with blocked out sides so they can't see each other, with two hides and a water dish. That room is dark except for daylight coming through the closed blinds and the light when I come into the room, although I usually turn it on very dimly as to not startle the snakes.

That time his "movement" only lasted a short time, it usually lasts for longer, and consists of more twisting of the entire top section of his body, not just the neck. And not only that, he doesn't often right himself and slither away like he does in that video, he will stop with his head upside down for a short period then corkscrew again and often flop forward unintentionally and then stay still.

Im also concerned about the fact that I found him with his belly facing outwards and not to the ground

Try to give him a hide or two, even if that takes up most of the tub...Also black out the top and back as well, or just lay a big towel across the tub, only leaving the front open. See if that will help him..

No matter what the neuro symptoms are caused by, that should help in either way..

He does already have two hides, he has yet to use them. I will cover the rest of the tub.

I understand the life of the snake is valuable and it is possible he could survive, not thrive but simply survive, but after watching how he moves the majority of the time should I be considering having him euthanized and sent for testing for the sake of the other snakes I got with him as well as mine?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Helium

He does already have two hides, he has yet to use them. I will cover the rest of the tub.

I understand the life of the snake is valuable and it is possible he could survive, not thrive but simply survive, but after watching how he moves the majority of the time should I be considering having him euthanized and sent for testing for the sake of the other snakes I got with him as well as mine?

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That is a very personal decision. Honestly, I would not blame you if you did.

If it is as bad as you say, the quality of life isn't there. You also have your other snakes to think of.

Of course it would be heart breaking to get all tests back "negative", and feel like you should have tried longer. But then, if we all had a Crystal Ball then life would be a lot easier.
You also have to think of your other snakes and what you may possibly be exposing them to. If you had told me what he does in the video is the WORST he does, I may have been inclined to wait this out. But if that is his better moments and if it is as bad as you explained. I don't see how that is any quality of life. Drowning in the water dish while being unable to control the body enough to get out, that is just a horrible way to go.

No one can make this decision for you, though. Ultimately it is up to you, and you will have to live with the consequences.

But if that is what you decide to do, I wouldn't hold it against you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Helium

Him and the other snakes I picked up are all in tubs on my office desk with heat tape as a quarantine area. My other snakes are downstairs while these ones are upstairs.

They are all in tubs with blocked out sides so they can't see each other, with two hides and a water dish. That room is dark except for daylight coming through the closed blinds and the light when I come into the room, although I usually turn it on very dimly as to not startle the snakes.

That time his "movement" only lasted a short time, it usually lasts for longer, and consists of more twisting of the entire top section of his body, not just the neck. And not only that, he doesn't often right himself and slither away like he does in that video, he will stop with his head upside down for a short period then corkscrew again and often flop forward unintentionally and then stay still.

Im also concerned about the fact that I found him with his belly facing outwards and not to the ground

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Id be nervous about my other snakes. The Video shows a severe Spider Wobble as of now......
the other weird things you described sounds like some kind of serious issue and Id make sure i washed very good before touching any of your snakes.. As a matter of fact if it is upside down and belly up on the ground as you described it would be gone already if it was me.


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I would say this is typical Spider wobble for a more severe case. I actually have two spiders that have a wobble / spin like that, a Spider Pied and a Pastel Spider Pied. Both eat just fine, will even take live just fine too. Just be sure to keep a smaller water dish in there with them, don't ever put them in a water tub to soak without constant supervision. I use the built in Dixie cups in my ARS tubs and that seems to work fine, they can get out of it no problem. I also like to spray them down with water instead of soaking them. I've seen this to a more severe extent with a Champagne in a pet store, the poor thing was crawling on his back belly up and couldn't flip himself over. Even though the movements are not natural they still thrive in all the cases that I've seen, it's just a bit strange. I haven't bred enough of my Spiders to know if the wobble is genetic to one specific line of Spiders or if it's just a random chance in any Spider line. I have a few spiders that are perfectly fine with no wobble at all.

For now I'd say it's the Spider Wobble (looking at that video) but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it's IBD. Just in case, I'd put him in quarantine in order to protect the other snakes. There are two things that come to my mind in your case:

1. Before I got my Bumblebee (Pastel + Spider) ball python, I had quite a long conversation with the breeder about the Spider gene. The married couple has been breeding ball pythons for many years and they told me that even a snake that was always fine can suddenly start to exhibit a very extreme case of the wobble. It is possible for sure but it happens rarely. I wonder if that might be the case with yours.
By the way the development goes both ways. A ball python with a severe wobble can become better to the point where the wobble is almost not noticeable.


2. IBD does not only come with corkscrewing. There are actually a few other symptoms to look out for. If you can say not to all of these questions, I think it's unlikely that it's IBD.
Doesn't the snake eat?
Have you ever seen the snake stargazing?
Have you ever noticed the tail of the snake twisting around?
Have you recently gotten any new snakes or is that snake new?
Did you ever see the snake having a seizure?
Does it look like the latter half of the snake's body is paralysed?
Does the snake appear disoriented?
Does the flickering of the tongue appear slower or has the tongue even stayed outside of his mouth for a longer period of time?
Does the animal appear slow?
Does the snake have different sized pupils (anisocoria) that only react to light tentatively?
If the snake lies on it's back, can't it go back to lying on it's stomach by itself?
If you suspect IBD to be the reason for the corkscrewing, bring the snake to the vet. It won't survive but at least you can protect it from suffering for a longer period of time.

I own a spider that even as an adult has and will do this when overly excited or stressed. You do what you want but if it were me I would put it in the least stressful environment I could and let it recover.

I watched your video and have had this happen with mine and he is still around and eating well and now that I have him an ideal environment, he does not do this. If he ever did again I would not even consider putting him down, I would simply leave him be.

That video is not showing anything to me but stress.

I'd like to say once again, what I saw in the video is a bad case of spider wobble.

However, what was DESCRIBED by the OP, is different. He said he couldn't get the "severe" stuff on video ...yet. A snake that is traveling upside down and stays upside down in water without being able to raise itself for 20 minutes, etc etc. I have no seen or heard of a "thriving/doing well" spider be that severe..

I haven't seen any stargazing and it has not eaten for me. He was recently acquired with a few other snakes from a neglectful household. I have not tried putting him on his back but I have seen his back half turned over, belly up.

I have an offer from someone with no other snakes to take him as a pet but Im concerned that I will no longer have a way to determine if there was something more serious with him if I do give him away. Not just that but I also have other snakes acquired from the same place who are also in quarantine that I would be hesitant to house near my other snakes not knowing what is wrong with this one.

I'm just at a loss for what to do. Obviously I don't want to put 'healthy' snake down but he acts far from healthy and even if it is a simple spider wobble I don't know if it would be fair to him to live his life acting the way he does.

I am happy to say that for the last 15 or so minutes I have been watching him he has only had a few minor corkscrews.

I think I may give him to said person and receive updates on him, if after a few weeks - a few months of settling he goes back to a normal spider behaviour I will consider taking the others out of QT. I believe this is the best option at the time

And they have only had it for about a week. Snakes can stress for the stupidest reasons to us and can take over a week to actually go full blown stress from a radical move.

With all things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one

Just follow your gut feeling on this one.

Do what you feel is right. No one can tell you what to do.

Sure, stress can and will make a spider worse.

But if I had a new animal in quarantine that showed severe symptoms such as the ones you were describing (not just what we saw in the video) to me, it would not be worth the risk to my existing animals.
That is exactly what quarantine is for. To establish if there is a problem. And if there is, to take care of it, whether that means a vet visit, tests, treatments, moving to another location or whatever.

Could it be an extreme version of spider wobble ? Sure.
Could it be more? Going by your description...definitely.

It doesn't have to be a disease either. Could have been caused by environment.

If you decide to keep it, I would practice strictest quarantine.

After following this thread from when it was still Part 1, i support Zina in what has been said.

I would personally not give it to someone else, to me that is like passing the buck so to speak.

I would try to quarantine it seperately from the snakes I already have in quarantine.

If after 3 months the condition has not improved, I would then euthanize the animal.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Personally I would only euthanize if the animal was sick and suffering to the point where death was imminent, such as not eating from extreme old age or literally falling apart losing scales, etc... I'm sure there are plenty of people who would take a snake like this in as a pet, especially for free. Even with all it's quirks I'm sure it could live a long life. I've gotten used to all my spider wobbles, doesn't bother me at all, they are still beautiful creatures.

I agree with Zina and Reptilius for the most part but I'd like to add one thing.
Boas and pythons can both be affected by IBD. They can have this illness for years without displaying any symptoms (with pythons that is often not the case) but once they start to exhibit the symptoms they die rather quick.
What I'm trying to say is: If the snake survives for 3 more months in quarantine, I think it's highly unlikely that it's IBD. If the snake doesn't die from the damage created by the illness, he'll likely starve himself to death (if he is really ill).
Whether you euthanise the animal after these three months is absolutely your decision to make. You're the one closest to the animal. You can see how the animal is progressing or regressing. Just please note that I doubt he can survive three more months if his symptoms are caused by IBD.

I also have a Bumblebee ball python. All ball pythons with the Spider gene have at least a bit of the wobble. There is not even one that is absolutely not affected by the gene. When I got mine, he was obviously stressed and I saw him wobbeling and once even doing a corkscrew. I was very worried and even suspected IBD. In the end he was just stressed.
As of now I can't even notice a wobble. There has to be one but I cannot see it. Not when I feed him, not when he had to move enclosures (from the quarantine box to his enclosure). He is also turning 1 year at the end of this month.
The symptoms you describe sound like a bit more than the Spider wobble but as Zina said it is still possible (even if it's unlikely) that it is just the Spider wobble connected to stress.

This is such a tough call to make. Personally, I won't even sell / rehome snakes I have that aren't feeding well for me, so I'd probably not rehome this guy unless the person knew full well what they were getting into and agreed to get the snake vet care or euthanize if needed.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably wait another week or 2 and if the snake does not improve and is showing signs as you stated (almost drowning, unable to stop moving, crawling upside down, etc.) I would euthanize it. Snakes are simple creatures with simple needs... They eat, poop, move around, hide, etc.. But IMO if the snake cannot at least control its' body enough to move around, to hide, to do basic crawling, then yes, I do believe it effects the quality of life especially if these issues are on-going (not momentary lapses). Moving this way could lead to other health issues, wounds, etc. and just discomfort / pain (I'm sure snake's spines aren't meant to have the pressure of all their weight on them while moving, etc.).

You stated that the snake hasn't eaten yet for you... If you've only had him a week, that is not uncommon. I typically wait at least 1 week to attempt to feed when I get new snakes. I'd agree with the others about giving it a much smaller / shallower bowl, wait it out a couple more weeks if you can, attempt a feed, and see what happens, then make a call one way or another.

I do not envy you your choice, but in the end, if it is sparing the snake physical suffering, euthanizing is not a bad choice IMO. If my cat (or other animals) were exhibiting the same behaviors as you state, I'd not hesitate to have them euthanized to spare them suffering.

He has not eaten for me and I have NOT attempted to feed him. His owner said he has not ate in a few months.

As much as I don't want to, I will hang on to him for the time being I suppose. I absolutely despise watching a snake move like this, even general corkscrewing makes me uncomfortable but for the sake of the snake I will not move him again and I know if it comes down to it I can and will make the decision on what happens to him.

Atleast if I keep him I can monitor his condition and have a better chance to see if it is something more.

Thanks for all the info everyone, I will be doing what I can to give him a simple, stress free life, for as long as he may be around. For now, I will monitor him daily and continue to practice strict quarantine procedures for him and the other snakes I got with him. Depending on how he does over the next week will determine my next move.

Why do you say he hasn't eaten for you if you haven't attempted to feed him? Do you mean you have offered food but not tried assisted/forced feeding him?

The video is pretty close to "moderate" spider corkscrewing. If he does that on occasion, but he eats and can move himself around the cage, he may live a fine life as a pet. Having parts of the body upside down isn't unusual for spiders, honestly. He's not likely to drown himself in a waterdish either. I've had perfectly healthy BPs decide to sit in the waterdish under water for no reason other than they felt like it. They never drowned themselves. They do have a fairly low O2 requirement.

It is all up to you, as his owner though to judge quality of life. If you feel he's suffering, than euthanasia is a viable option. If you feel like he's just exceptionally whacko in the spider universe, he might be fine for many years.

It's unfair to compare a BP to a mammal like a cat also. A cat would only do this with severe neurological issues, while young BPs can corkscrew and stargaze just to freak out their owners so repeated episodes of the same movements are not "harmful" in themselves and as posted above, the snake has been healthy to this point, eating and growing just fine.

Just my $0.02 as always

It may be a genetic problem.Generally spider combos have such a problem called wobbling. I think it won't be changed.

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