Concerned about corkscrewing in a spider

Recently I picked up a spider ball python who was being neglected by his owner and I'm concerned about his corkscrewing.

I used to keep a mojave spider so I do have experience with them but I actually stopped keeping snakes and rehomed my corn snake and other bp because the sight of him corkscrewing turned me away from snakes and, quite honestly, scared me. It is not a pleasant site. But thats a different topic and now, years later, I'm back into keeping snakes.

I do understand that it is 'normal' for them to corkscrew but I'm not sure if I've been unlucky and both were severe cases or if something else is an issue, such as stress. I constantly see people justifying the continuation of breeding them but quite frankly, I don't see how they can. I do not want to get into that here but try walking around for 5 minutes swinging your head up and down and side to side wildly and tell me you have a normal quality of life.

On to the issue, I want to know what other spiders are generally like, my original mojave spider would do full corkscrews everytime I came near his cage and it got especially bad at feeding time. The new one I've picked ( I never wanted to own another spider but I couldn't leave him in those conditions) has been doing some fairly severe corkscrews, fully twisting the first 5 inches of his body and sometimes stretching back, twisted up and staying upside down for a period of time.

Do other spiders do this or could this be a different issue I need to address? Or have I just ended up with two severe cases of it?

Probably have gotten 2 severe cases of the spider gene. All BP's with the spider gene carry the Neuro disorder that causes the wobble. I have a spider as well that does not have it bad, only time you can tell it is when she's feeding and getting her food down. Usually excitement from what I have noticed with mine is what triggers her little bit of wobble. They do say blackhead gene seems to clear up the wobble with spiders.

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I'm currently sitting infront of his tub watching him unable to even stay still or upright. He is constantly twisting and curling and only stays upright with his head flat on the ground for a short period of time before he begins corkscrewing and honestly its quite sad to watch.

I can't fathom how this poor snake could possibly be living a good life when is constantly unable to control his head. Just because he is able to eat and survive doesn't mean he isn't living in absolute hell.

I don't think its fair to try to rehome this snake, my original plan when pulling him out of his previous home, even if the new owner was aware of the severity of it. I'm honestly considering euthanasia if his corkscrewing doesn't atleast lessen as he becomes more comfortable. This snake can not function 90% of the time and I feel cruel watching it writhe around

Im really beginning to worry, currently the top third of his body is twisted and he is moving upside down on his head, rarely able to right himself and not able to stay upright for any amount of time before he begins corkscrewing again

Whoa whoa whoa... Is he eating if so then why do you want to put him down because of corkscrewing? Stress and excitement causes corkscrewing in spiders even with mild wobble.

Mine is over 7 years old and has no degradation in his quality of life. He is in a very relaxed environment and as such he rarely corkscrews unless he is excited.

You say he was rescued so is it possible he is under stress currently?

Is his corkscrewing worse than this (jump to 2 minutes)? This is mine corkscrewing because he is having fun. Give your snake a chance to calm down. You rescued it so it is your responsibility to reduce it's stress

https://youtu.be/OVPskuJs7vo?t=141

He has not eaten for me, I have had him five days. He is fairly large so clearly he has eaten but his owner said not in the past few months.

I am not considering euthanizing him right now, I will of course allow him time to settle but it is much, much more severe than that. The top third of his body is upside down, head constantly spinning or literally moving upside down but completely unable to move normally or even stay still upright.

He is also not lifting himself off of the ground, he is moving only on the ground upside down

You have only had a snake for 5 days that was in a neglected environment. Relax about the corkscrewing and let that snake settle in and calm down before you think it is defective.

The snake is severely stressed!

My issue is that it seems to be much more than a simple corkscrew. I know what a normal corkscrew is like, this snake is writhing around on the ground, unable to stay still or upright. That seems to be more than stress does it not?

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Originally Posted by SDA

Whoa whoa whoa... Is he eating if so then why do you want to put him down because of corkscrewing? Stress and excitement causes corkscrewing in spiders even with mild wobble.

Mine is over 7 years old and has no degradation in his quality of life. He is in a very relaxed environment and as such he rarely corkscrews unless he is excited.

You say he was rescued so is it possible he is under stress currently?

Is his corkscrewing worse than this (jump to 2 minutes)? This is mine corkscrewing because he is having fun. Give your snake a chance to calm down. You rescued it so it is your responsibility to reduce it's stress

https://youtu.be/OVPskuJs7vo?t=141

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Man that seems almost normal.. Then again ive only seen severe cases on YouTube, never had Spider Gene or known anyone with them personally.

Personally I would advise against getting one, I have only had two so my experience is limited but the chance of ending up with one who has a severe wobble doesn't seem worth it to me. My first one, sure, he was a normal snake 75% of the time and likely continues to thrive with his new owner, this snake currently can't function and its heartbreaking to see and again, a turn off from snakes.

What you described in your last comment about being upside down on the substrate doesnt sound like Spider Wobble. Like i said ive never had one, but after the hundreds of videos ive seen on the subject and the reading, I've never heard of what your describing characterized as the Spider Wobble . Do you have a way to post a YouTube Vid? Im interested in seeing. Ive seen snakes do what your describing, but it was not the wobble.

That's the issue, it doesn't appear to be a normal wobble, maybe an extremely severe case but I'm confused as to why for the past 4 days I have seen him corkscrew twice and now he can't stop. Nothing has changed and I would think the most stressful part would have been moving here and being in the new enclosure, so again, why is it only starting now?
I don't have a lot of experience with it either so I'm looking for advice from more experienced keepers.

I can try to find a way to get a video if you guys think it could help but right now Im trying to leave the lights off and that room undisturbed to reduce stress

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Originally Posted by Helium

That's the issue, it doesn't appear to be a normal wobble, maybe an extremely severe case but I'm confused as to why for the past 4 days I have seen him corkscrew twice and now he can't stop. Nothing has changed and I would think the most stressful part would have been moving here and being in the new enclosure, so again, why is it only starting now?
I don't have a lot of experience with it either so I'm looking for advice from more experienced keepers.

I can try to find a way to get a video if you guys think it could help but right now Im trying to leave the lights off and that room undisturbed to reduce stress

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Well a Video might help. I dont want to plant seeds in your head but ive seen a snake that had been overheated by someone that didnt regulate temps and its brain basically became "Fried".. It just flipped all over. Neurological problem after...
Deb might see this post and tell me to stop speculating but Im just interested in what it could be.. Even the word Cork Screwing is not really what your describing... If it lays and moves with its head upside down somethings up.

It was literally the top 1/3 of his body twisted like a corkscrew and then pushing his head along the ground. That lasted around one minute and then he want back to wild corkscrewing, hitting everything, even had himself upside down head completely underwater for about 20 seconds.
I am positive my temps have not gonna over 91, however when I was given these snakes I was handed all of them loose inside a cardboard box together in less than optimal condition. He's worked his stuck shed off and actually seems to be the most well fed of the group but I have no idea how they were caged and I'm actually concerned one of them could be gravid? Thats a wild assumption, she just seems rather plump and bumpy, I have zero experience with gravid snakes though so I do not know. I just know its possible they were housed together

I will leave him alone for tonight and see about getting a video tomorrow

If I can get my spider to touch her chin to something stable her wobbles all but stop. It sounds like the snake is likely very stressed. Could you take a video?


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Hate to bring it up, but if it's as serious as your saying it is, needs to see a vet and be tested for IBD. After reading it mire and how you described it, that popped in my head. Better to know if it is than not know.

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That sounds far more severe then "just" a Spider Wobble.

If this snake always had such a severe issue, it wouldn't have made it to that size. While a wobble "can" get worse or better over time, it usually doesn't change that dramatically.

A wobble is a neurological issue. The spider wobble on its own is usually not a bad one, either. It doesn't have to be "hell". I know of a dog with a neurological issue that causes it to constantly wobble its back end back and forth and it falls and "dances" all over the place, can't really walk straight. Yet, that is ONE happy, healthy, hyper little dog. It would be a travesty to put it down. A dog will clearly show you if in pain, with their eyes, body language even vocally.

A snake can't do that. But a snake that is "in hell" will not eat nor thrive. Most spiders live perfectly healthy lives and the ones I've come across were some of the best eaters and also some of the sweetest in personality. The one I had was simply a sweetheart and never a problem. I was lucky that she also had no cork screwing and only a occasional miss on striking the rodent. But even the more severe ones I've seen were NOTHING like what you describe.

Many diseases can cause these symptoms. Even certain fumes in the air (some almost undetectable to us) can cause these issues. Having bug treatments around the house (no smell to us) can cause these issues. Off gassing of certain paints, stains, glues and whatnot can cause these issues. IBD, other diseases can cause them.

This snake could have a viral or bacterial infection. It could have over heated at some point, which can also cause these symptoms.

If there are spiders that have SEVERE issues that keep them from living a normal life and thriving, they will most likely never even make it past the hatchling age. Again, never seen one where I would consider its quality of life nor recommend euthanasia. Btw there are many other morphs that come with genetic hickups. Some may even have issues that can't be seen on the outside. The very fact of them BEING morphs is already a genetic anomaly.

I would make sure you quarantine that animal strictly and a vet visit would be advisable. If its like you describe, that is not just a spider wobble. IMHO.

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Originally Posted by zina10

That sounds far more severe then "just" a Spider Wobble.
I would make sure you quarantine that animal strictly and a vet visit would be advisable. If its like you describe, that is not just a spider wobble. IMHO.

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I didnt want to say all that, I might get yelled at LOL.
That is everything I thought though, maybe a over heating, poisoning or something. Sounds just terrible.


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I just checked on him, currently he's sitting curled up in a ball on his hotspot normally.

I may have come across as rather standoffish in my opinion of spiders and I do have limited experience with them but both I have owned, have had severe enough issues that made it uncomfortable to be around them. And the chance alone of getting another with this kind of issue cements the fact I will never own or be for the breeding of them. However, thats not to say I'm on a witch hunt for those who do keep and breed them, I simply will advise against if asked and not keep them myself. Although if I find another who desperately needs proper care, I likely won't be able to just leave him there.

I would like to also clarify I was not saying "it has a wobble, put it down!!" I understand the difference between a wobble/corkscrewing and something much more severe. I watched it for nearly two hours wildly out of control, twisting and curling and hitting everything and I will not sit by and keep a snake for its pretty pattern when it clearly cannot function. I would think people on here would be for the humane treatment of animals and had you seen what he was doing, you couldn't honestly tell me he is living any where near even an "ok" quality of life. And again, I wouldn't even think of putting him down until I have exhausted all other options. I know he needs time to settle and de stress but if the behaviour I saw last night is something that continually is happening and does not get better with time I will be the first to say I think its inhumane to keep him alive and I will stand by that point. I know what I saw and it would be wrong to keep an animal suffering like that.

Back to the topic at hand, currently he is quarantined in the upstairs of my house with the other snakes he came with while my snakes are downstairs.
They are all in plastic totes with covered sides with two simple plastic hides, a water dish, and Uline cardboard paper for substrate so I can monitor poops, mites and anything else. The hotspot is between 88 - 91 and cool side around 78. Humidity is not helped by the cardboard bottom so i will mist occasionally and humidity goes up and down. I can switch him to coco / sphagnum, which is what I keep all my snakes on, but I tend to use the Uline paper for quarantine.

From what I know of IBD the only tests which can be done while the snake is alive are not accurate so I'm not sure about going that route. I'm also very hesitant to even think that right now, partially because I don't want to stress about my other snakes but more so, I just don't think it is IBD. I will maintain proper quarantine procedures though.

I will try to take a video when I get home from the gym, its currently 4:30 and he is laying quietly and peacefully so I'm not going to disturb him.
I am hoping that this is his wobble being drastically exaggerated due to stress however I am definitely concerned it could be worse than that based on what I've seen.
I will say this, I did not exaggerate how how he was moving, the first 8 inches of him were twisted like a curly fry, his belly almost upwards and his head flat on the ground, upside down, pushing along his cage. I have never seen anything like this in him or any other snake and thankfully it only lasted 2 hours but even if it is 'just' a severe wobble, it was almost unbearable for me to sit and watch. I can't imagine how it must be for him to be completely unable to control his body.

And no it does not get better with a hand under his head, he does sort of a sideways roll and then loops backwards into a corkscrew again. During the time I was watching and posting he couldn't even lay still on the ground, constant motion and constant corkscrewing.

I understand what you meant the whole time. I dont think you were Stand-Offish...... I dont agree with breeding spiders myself. There are some that show no signs at all, however I feel we (Humans) are breeding things for one purpose only, looks and thats disgusting to me. I have had a lot of problem animals (and that breaks my heart) because of bad Genetics but are bred over and over for visual traits..
My Last Pit has terrible problems with Hips and Knees. I found out his whole line does after and they kept breeding him because of the massive head size. Now I have a sweetheart 6 years old thats solid as a Ox with terrible bones and joints my poor boy.


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I'm sorry to hear that! I absolutely love pits and was able to foster a pitbull / rotty mix for about 4 months and she was the absolute sweetest angel, but I never have and I never will get a dog from a breeder. My current two boys are both rescues and they have the most adorable personalities ( I find all rescues do) . My big german shepherd / Rotty mix is a complete suck, he constantly needs love and every night when I'm in bed he will climb up and lay across my pillows and shove me down so Ill usually wake up with furry legs on both shoulders and my head on his stomach as a pillow. And of course he's laying there non chalantly, head back, ears and gums flopped open. Love him to death but he is a baby. A massive baby who thinks he's a lap dog.

I'm not for the breeding of animals with defects, like pugs and bulldogs who have so many health issues and are quite ugly to be honest. I'm also not for the breeding of humans, we're over populating the world with, quite frankly, morons. I believe we should be selectively bred for our traits and not let every Tom, :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: and Sally have 5 kids while they're barely surviving on welfare. I also have some pretty out there ideas about culling majority of the world to allow us to figure out how to survive while using minimal resources but none of this matters! I get distracted easily and am currently typing this while at the gym so I'm not very focused.

BACK TO THE SNAKE, when I left he was not moving around anymore so I would say he is doing better, I will continue to monitor and potentially visit the vet depending on how he does today.

Do you guys think there is a chance that it is simply a severe wobble drastically exaggerated by stress?

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Originally Posted by Helium

I'm sorry to hear that! I absolutely love pits and was able to foster a pitbull / rotty mix for about 4 months and she was the absolute sweetest angel, but I never have and I never will get a dog from a breeder. My current two boys are both rescues and they have the most adorable personalities ( I find all rescues do) . My big german shepherd / Rotty mix is a complete suck, he constantly needs love and every night when I'm in bed he will climb up and lay across my pillows and shove me down so Ill usually wake up with furry legs on both shoulders and my head on his stomach as a pillow. And of course he's laying there non chalantly, head back, ears and gums flopped open. Love him to death but he is a baby. A massive baby who thinks he's a lap dog.

I'm not for the breeding of animals with defects, like pugs and bulldogs who have so many health issues and are quite ugly to be honest. I'm also not for the breeding of humans, we're over populating the world with, quite frankly, morons. I believe we should be selectively bred for our traits and not let every Tom, :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: and Sally have 5 kids while they're barely surviving on welfare. I also have some pretty out there ideas about culling majority of the world to allow us to figure out how to survive while using minimal resources but none of this matters! I get distracted easily and am currently typing this while at the gym so I'm not very focused.

BACK TO THE SNAKE, when I left he was not moving around anymore so I would say he is doing better, I will continue to monitor and potentially visit the vet depending on how he does today.

Do you guys think there is a chance that it is simply a severe wobble drastically exaggerated by stress?

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Im not familiar enough with the Gene but as some other said earlier who are, that may be exactly what was going on.
On the side note I understand what your saying about people having 5 kids while we all pay for it.. But also as you said, you have some far out idea's hahhhhaha


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If only people could work together and raise kids as a community, bred from the best stock where greed,power and laziness weren't driving forces, but I digress :rolleye2:

I will continue to monitor throughout the day and keep everyone updated on how he is doing, if he begins his out of control spiralling again I will try to get a video but I'm going to do everything I can to keep him stress free so that does not happen again.

Thanks everyone for the info :gj: If anyone has any suggestions on what to do or how to keep him stress free let me know, I'm all ears

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Helium

I'm sorry to hear that! I absolutely love pits and was able to foster a pitbull / rotty mix for about 4 months and she was the absolute sweetest angel, but I never have and I never will get a dog from a breeder. My current two boys are both rescues and they have the most adorable personalities ( I find all rescues do) . My big german shepherd / Rotty mix is a complete suck, he constantly needs love and every night when I'm in bed he will climb up and lay across my pillows and shove me down so Ill usually wake up with furry legs on both shoulders and my head on his stomach as a pillow. And of course he's laying there non chalantly, head back, ears and gums flopped open. Love him to death but he is a baby. A massive baby who thinks he's a lap dog.

I'm not for the breeding of animals with defects, like pugs and bulldogs who have so many health issues and are quite ugly to be honest. I'm also not for the breeding of humans, we're over populating the world with, quite frankly, morons. I believe we should be selectively bred for our traits and not let every Tom, :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: and Sally have 5 kids while they're barely surviving on welfare. I also have some pretty out there ideas about culling majority of the world to allow us to figure out how to survive while using minimal resources but none of this matters! I get distracted easily and am currently typing this while at the gym so I'm not very focused.

BACK TO THE SNAKE, when I left he was not moving around anymore so I would say he is doing better, I will continue to monitor and potentially visit the vet depending on how he does today.

Do you guys think there is a chance that it is simply a severe wobble drastically exaggerated by stress?

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This train derailed

Sorry, its early morning :rolleye2: as I said, I get distracted easily.

My question still stands though, Does anyone have experience with a wobble becoming this serious due to stress or husbandry?