Ball Python bit without striking first

So my ball python bit someone without striking. He just started rubbing his nose against his hand and then started biting him pretty slowly. I've had a similar situation happen with a fuzzy blanket that he thought was a rat and then acted like he was going to bite me. He didn't just stayed with his nose right against my wrist and was hard to pry off. He's generally pretty friendly and always comes to me when I go to handle him. Now I'm scared he might bite me. I know it's to be expected, but would like to avoid it if I can. He is a Killer Bee and has a pretty intense head bobble and a strong feeder. I'm just wondering if there might be a reason he bit in such an unusual way...? Does his head bobble have anything to do with it?

I've been bit several times just like that. It seemed to me that my snakes did not like the feel of my arm hair. More of an exploratory bite.

Sounds a little odd, but there could have been a food like smell on the person as well. Who knows?

Look, no one wants to get bitten, by anything, especially larger snakes! That kind of bite sounds pretty harmless, almost exploratory, as KMG said. I wrestle with my dogs and play bites from them hurt more than a BP bite. However, I am not afraid of them. I think sometimes we are afraid of what we don't understand, or can't read. Snake bites seem to scare people more than much more painful things. Frankly, I am probably more worried about getting bitten my one of my snakes (during feeding for example) than I am about many other things that are far worse. I don't let it get to me, but in thinking about it I am more cautious about feeding my snakes than many other things. It's the quickness/unpredictability that potentially bothers me. However, as you will see below, I have had many worse things happen to me (and painful things - I had a kidney transplant and follow up surgery 6 years ago) than getting bitten!

The reality of owning snakes is you can get bitten. Knowing you snake, handling you snake, etc. helps cut down the risk, but mistakes happen during feeding, or they can get confused, or are having a bad day. I race cars and they say if you race long enough, you will crash. I had a transmission failure at 100 mph and went into the wall. That hurt! A BP bite does not, comparably. If you own snakes long enough, you may get bit, it happens.

Having said that, I have had BP's, corn snakes, and now Boa's for much of my life. I have suffered one bite from a baby BP - and it was totally my fault. I slipped and slammed my hand down in front of his hide and he struck quick and then coiled up. I scared him more than he scared or hurt me.

First, try to learn your snake and not be afraid. A bite can be scary if they strike, especially if you are used to chill snake, but it won't be the end of the world. It also sounds like your BP is not aggressive, but rather, scared or had a food response. I wouldn't worry about that as much as a snake that strikes when you walk by or put your hand in his/her enclosure.

Secondly, learn snake language. Sudden and sharp movements can mean scared or defensive. In these instances, be cautious. I would balance that with letting the snake know you are in charge and not afraid of it. My albino spider BP used to hiss when she was little. I called her bluff the first few times and picked her up. She realized I was not afraid of her and hasn't done that since (she is 5 now).

Happy snake or curious snake equals slow and wide/long tongue movements. Tasting the air, taking things in. Short fast tongue movements can mean hungry, scared, defensive, etc.

I am not trying to be difficult and trivialize your fear. I understand, as I said above, and don't want to get bitten either. However, as Alford Hitchcock said, "the anticipation of the bang is worse than the bang itself." He made a living on fear/anxiety over actual event.

In this case the fear of a snake bite is probably doing more harm than the snake bite could. Additionally, although snakes DO NOT "sense fear," if you are nervous, he could become nervous and defensive too. Be chill and he probably will be as well.

I used to tell myself when I started racing cars that I would freak out and quit racing if I got in an accident. I didn't. I got back on the horse and set faster lap times.

If you get bit, you'll keep enjoying your BP, but I doubt it will be a common occurrence, if it happens again.

Enjoy your BP! Don't let the fear of getting bit take away from how awesome your BP is and how much enjoyment you get from him/her.

Thanks for your input! I know a lot of the fear is mental and I could experience far worse bites from my other animals.. He's never struck at me in aggression before but he is very curious when I come by his cage. Like I said he would just come out to me when I stopped by and opened up his doors. Both of these times though he was totally chill and normal until I'm guessing something triggered him. Mostly just wondering if anyone else has experienced something similar, I've just never seen a snake bite the way he did.

Yeah. I realize I rambled on there after re-reading. Lol.

Glad it was helpful though.

I have heard of bites like that but never seen or experienced one.

Probably a one time thing.

How old old is your BP?

I find this very interesting, I have no advice but simply my opinion on snake bites and my experience.

I've taken a few bites from my 100+ lb german shepherd / rotty mix (unintentionally) as him and my other dog sometimes get too rough playing and I have to separate them and those bites hurt and do a lot more damage than a ball python ever could but it doesn't scare me off of letting my dogs sleep in my bed or play with me.
We are naturally scared of what we don't know and with public perception of " the big bad snakes" we associate them with danger and don't take the time to get to know the animals and understand them like we do with dogs, creating a fear of them.

Ball pythons don't hurt when they bite but the thought of being bit by a snake is intimidating and I feel like it comes from the overall perception of snakes being dangerous and bad. Of course no one on this site believes that but, personally, I think it goes back to your natural instinct and what you were taught of snakes being dangerous.

When I was living with my parents they wouldn't allow me to have snakes and they were terrified of them so I didn't handle a snake until I was 17 and living on my own.
For 17 years I was taught that snakes were bad, leave them alone, and now sometimes when I see one of my snakes (who I know is friendly) coiled up or looking defensive I start to get nervous about being bit and I think subconsciously its your brain telling you what its been told for years: Snakes = Danger

I just picked up a large adult female bp (largest snake Ive ever handled) and seeing how big she is does make me nervous to get bit but as Dakski said, its the anticipation of being bit which can lead you to be more timid and more likely to get bit, the bit itself isn't so bad.

I'm very excited to start handling her once she's settled in, despite my intimidation, because is anything fun if it doesn't get your heart racing?

All in all, don't be worried to get bit, it might happen, it might not, you're not gonna die or even be hurt. Try to get to know and understand your snakes body language and signs of when its scared or defensive because its not biting out of aggression, your snake isn't sizing you up and planning an elaborate jail break to devour you in your sleep.



Or atleast thats what they want us to think :snake::snake::snake::snake::snake:

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Originally Posted by dakski

Yeah. I realize I rambled on there after re-reading. Lol.

Glad it was helpful though.

I have heard of bites like that but never seen or experienced one.

Probably a one time thing.

How old old is your BP?

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Lol it's all good, I've never been bitten before but I've heard it's like a paper cut. He is very hard to get off once latched on, strong lil guy. Felt bad for the guy he bit though, we were all just talking about how friendly he is and then that happened lol

He's around 2 years old, closer to 3. I've had him for about 2 years.

If he latches on again, and doesn't let go, cold/tap temp water is a good remedy. You could hurt him more than he's hurting anyone else trying to pry him off.

If you've had him 2 years and this is the first bite, I would think you are in pretty good shape!

I hope the guy who was holding him wasn't, or isn't now, afraid of snakes! I let ambivalent people hold my BP and they usually end up liking snakes after. Shayna is a sweetheart.

Best of luck and keep enjoying him!

This is not unique to Ball Pythons, I have had a King Snake, a Corn Snake and a Rosy Boa do the exact same thing to me.
Obviously not on the same day, at different times over the years.
When a snake starts that slow exploratory sniffing, I immediately stop them by moving them to another position.
More often than not, I think that the slow innocent sniffing and almost nuzzling, is the pre - cursor to that exploratory bite.
I must say however, that in the case of the Rosy Boa, it went into a full feeding response with constriction of my arm as well.

Just my two cents worth.

The only determined bite I've received was after an egregious error I made. I was still new to herping and my only ball python had gone off food that winter for the first time. That early spring day she seemed hungry again so I thawed her rat. I was holding her and talking on the phone, and then I brought her over to "sniff" her almost ready rat to "keep her enthusiasm up" (when I learn a lesson the hard way, I go ALL in.)
As I walked away with her, she just calmy turned her head around and latched onto my knuckle with her whole ravenous face. Then she threw some coils around my hand for good measure and gave it her all. Yes, it hurt.
My voice went up an octave as I kept chatting on the phone. I tried to start peeling her off. She bit harder so I stopped. I tried running her under a neutral stream of tap water. My purple finger paid for that, too. In the end, I just waited until she was finished. 6 minutes later I got my finger back none the worse for wear besides like 40 or so pin pricks.
Lessons I've learned: don't chill with super hungry snakes, don't chill when rats are a'thawin', it hurts to get a feed bite, but not so much that I've purchased any mouthwash for the occasion since, and you're all but healed up the next day.
If your snake bites maybe out of hunger, try using hand sanitizer before holding and a few days after food. Good luck!

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I had an adult Kingsnake do this to me a while back. She would just casually rub her nose against my hand and wrist, then slowly bite. She would hold on for any where from a few seconds to I'm guessing a minute or so, didn't time it, hahaha. After about 6-7 bites there was one lone little blood droplet and a few teeth marks.

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Originally Posted by dakski

Look, no one wants to get bitten, by anything, especially larger snakes! That kind of bite sounds pretty harmless, almost exploratory, as KMG said. I wrestle with my dogs and play bites from them hurt more than a BP bite.

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Am I the only one who sometimes wishes I could play with my snakes the way we play with dogs, cats, ferrets, etc... just some gentle rough housing and a few play bites?? Maybe a little tug-of-war, chase the toy, etc...Hahaha!!
I said that to my girlfriend a while back and she looked at me like I had 7 heads!!
Maybe it is just me??

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Am I the only one who sometimes wishes I could play with my snakes the way we play with dogs, cats, ferrets, etc... just some gentle rough housing and a few play bites?? Maybe a little tug-of-war, chase the toy, etc...Hahaha!!
I said that to my girlfriend a while back and she looked at me like I had 7 heads!!
Maybe it is just me??

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Hahahahahaha.. To funny. I get some strange looks myself.. I call them Sweetheart and i dont know how many times ive gotten:
"I don't know the last time you spoke that sweet to me but your in there with the snakes calling them Sweetheart" [emoji15]
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
We have some Pet Norway Rats also that are really cool and smart. They play just like our Dogs.. Tug a war, wrestle your hand and love a massage... And yes i think to myself...
"wish the snakes would come over to me & wanted to get scratched and rubbed" Hahaha[emoji216][emoji216][emoji216][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

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Originally Posted by kathleenwdwrd

So my ball python bit someone without striking. He just started rubbing his nose against his hand and then started biting him pretty slowly. I've had a similar situation happen with a fuzzy blanket that he thought was a rat and then acted like he was going to bite me. He didn't just stayed with his nose right against my wrist and was hard to pry off. He's generally pretty friendly and always comes to me when I go to handle him. Now I'm scared he might bite me. I know it's to be expected, but would like to avoid it if I can. He is a Killer Bee and has a pretty intense head bobble and a strong feeder. I'm just wondering if there might be a reason he bit in such an unusual way...? Does his head bobble have anything to do with it?

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This is crazy interesting. It sounds like the way my girls eat Fresh Kill...
I noticed you said "its really hard to pry him off". Did you mean on this one occasion with the guys hand or other times also like the Blanket? How did it react when it bit down on the Blanket?

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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

This is crazy interesting. It sounds like the way my girls eat Fresh Kill...
I noticed you said "its really hard to pry him off". Did you mean on this one occasion with the guys hand or other times also like the Blanket? How did it react when it bit down on the Blanket?

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Both occasions. When he bit the guy's hand he wrapped around his wrist and would not release his bite.

With the blanket he started rubbing his face against the blanket and started to move his head back and forth and slowly bit it. I saw this and knew he could very well bite me now because he's in feeding mode now. I immediately got up to put him away, that's when he wrapped around my wrist and remained nose down on my wrist like he was about to do the same thing time to me. It took us a couple minutes to unwrap him but he never bit me. I like to think he really actually likes me and knew to not bite me. He is at least way more curious about me than my fiance, anytime I come by and say his name a few times, he comes out to greet me and would just slither right onto my arm when it was handling time.

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Originally Posted by kathleenwdwrd

Both occasions. When he bit the guy's hand he wrapped around his wrist and would not release his bite.

With the blanket he started rubbing his face against the blanket and started to move his head back and forth and slowly bit it. I saw this and knew he could very well bite me now because he's in feeding mode now. I immediately got up to put him away, that's when he wrapped around my wrist and remained nose down on my wrist like he was about to do the same thing time to me. It took us a couple minutes to unwrap him but he never bit me. I like to think he really actually likes me and knew to not bite me. He is at least way more curious about me than my fiance, anytime I come by and say his name a few times, he comes out to greet me and would just slither right onto my arm when it was handling time.

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If he coiled, almost definitely a feeding response. Aggressive/defensive bites are usually strike, bite, let go, and possibly repeat!

Also, as you probably know, he might recognize you and/or your scent, but he can't hear you, well like we do. No ears! LOL!

Cool he is a friendly little fellow. Sounds like an odd duck a little with the biting and coiling on a hand though!

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Originally Posted by kathleenwdwrd

Both occasions. When he bit the guy's hand he wrapped around his wrist and would not release his bite.

With the blanket he started rubbing his face against the blanket and started to move his head back and forth and slowly bit it. I saw this and knew he could very well bite me now because he's in feeding mode now. I immediately got up to put him away, that's when he wrapped around my wrist and remained nose down on my wrist like he was about to do the same thing time to me. It took us a couple minutes to unwrap him but he never bit me. I like to think he really actually likes me and knew to not bite me. He is at least way more curious about me than my fiance, anytime I come by and say his name a few times, he comes out to greet me and would just slither right onto my arm when it was handling time.

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Very interesting and Im sorry but I couldn't help but laugh when you said you were discussing how gentile he was and then he Bit the guy ROFL.... I was laughing so hard ny wife didnt understand what I was trying to tell her happened hahahahahha.
This is the Exact way my 2 girls eat fresh kill. They push their nose into the Rats fur nosing around and i always sit there saying "come on already are you going to snuggle & kiss or eat" lol.. Once they do that (sometimes leaving it and coming back 2-3 times) they eventually Walk their jaw onto the Rat like a Dog picking up Meat and drag it to their Hide to eat... Its all so Strange to me as I never had snakes do any of these behaviors 20 years ago... I dont understand 1/2 of it and wonder if they have picked up odd Captive Bred traits through breeding over & over through the years. Especially Ball Pythons because of the Morphs that are available.. they started being produced like they were the latest Iphone years ago.

I got a bite like that a few years ago. I didn't wash my hands between playing with the rats and taking out the snake.

Totally my fault - never happened again though.

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So just tried to take him out to feed him and he bit me almost immediately -_- I'm afraid the taste of human blood has turned my friendly little guy to a meanie :(

Even made sure to clean my hands up to my elbows

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Originally Posted by kathleenwdwrd

So just tried to take him out to feed him and he bit me almost immediately -_- I'm afraid the taste of human blood has turned my friendly little guy to a meanie :(

Even made sure to clean my hands up to my elbows

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What exactly happened? Why would you be taking him out to feed him? This is the snake you've had foe 2 years if i remember correctly...where was the food compared to you and the snake?


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Originally Posted by kathleenwdwrd

So just tried to take him out to feed him and he bit me almost immediately -_- I'm afraid the taste of human blood has turned my friendly little guy to a meanie :(

Even made sure to clean my hands up to my elbows

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He is not mean. He thinks you are into BDSM. :P

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Am I the only one who sometimes wishes I could play with my snakes the way we play with dogs, cats, ferrets, etc... just some gentle rough housing and a few play bites?? Maybe a little tug-of-war, chase the toy, etc...Hahaha!!
I said that to my girlfriend a while back and she looked at me like I had 7 heads!!
Maybe it is just me??

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This.

Hahahaha, that’s exactly how my little scrub first bit me! At the store in the first 20 seconds of holding him. I thought he just wanted a snuggle ;) He still loves to rub his face into my skin and if he does it too hard, his teeth prick me. Don’t think it’s intentional; he just likes face hugs!


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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

What exactly happened? Why would you be taking him out to feed him? This is the snake you've had foe 2 years if i remember correctly...where was the food compared to you and the snake?


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I feed him in a separate container to avoid him associating me with feeding time. I was putting him in his feeding tank and he was mostly in but clinging onto the edge. I went to pick his tail up to get him all the way in and he bit me and let go. I did jerk away a bit but hopefully he let go cause he realized it was me and not a rat. I'm just gonna get some gloves to avoid this in the future until I'm sure he's not gonna bite me. I work in the service industry and my hands can't have open wounds all the time or I wouldn't care so much. My feelings are hurt more than anything lol.

I think it was because it was a separate enclosure lol. He now associated that with food and well...ya. Lol welcome to the bite club lol.

Sorry your little guy turned on you, LOL! I wouldn't take it personally. At least he has a good feeding response! My female hasn't eaten in almost 5 months!

Having said all that, do you feed live or F/T?

Are you against feeding in the enclosure?

I feed all my snakes in the enclosure and have had zero issues. Well, had a (mistaken) feeding bite this past week from my BCI, but she was more upset it seemed than I was. I am now hook training her.

My corn is aggressive at feeding, as is my BCI (lol - see above), and my BP can be from time to time, but I still feed in the enclosure. I have heard of more stories where feeding outside led to trouble than the other way around.

Others can chime in, but I'd be interested to see what your responses are.

It could also be dumb luck that it happened twice in a couple of weeks. I am sure he doesn't hate you! Just a confused little guy.

I was adamant in the beginning to feed in a separate box. Deb set me straight. I feed both my babies in their tanks and have never been bitten or mistaken for food. I also have a routine set up with them. They know feeding day. They are both out and telling me it's time. They also know that I take them out, weigh them, and then feed after they go back into their enclosure. I also wash hands before taking them out and after I put them in so there Is no rat smell on my hands. Odyn is my chow snake and will keep eating if I let him, while booplesnoop will take her small rat and be satisfied.

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Originally Posted by kathleenwdwrd

I feed him in a separate container to avoid him associating me with feeding time. I was putting him in his feeding tank and he was mostly in but clinging onto the edge. I went to pick his tail up to get him all the way in and he bit me and let go. I did jerk away a bit but hopefully he let go cause he realized it was me and not a rat. I'm just gonna get some gloves to avoid this in the future until I'm sure he's not gonna bite me. I work in the service industry and my hands can't have open wounds all the time or I wouldn't care so much. My feelings are hurt more than anything lol.

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There is the problem. It's a misconception people have thats its good to feed snakes in a separate enclosure. For one moving a snake after they eat is bad, and for two now he tagged a heat source as soon as he was getting into the feeding tub.
This is why people hook train or do things to condition the snake before picking them up so that they don't think it's feeding time. I rub my snakes with the hook or I just pick up the hide and rub them with the hide a little bit. When I'm feeding I put the Rat in front of the hide door and right away they know it's time to eat and strike from inside. One thing I wouldn't do is dangle my finger in front of the hide door because that would be a trigger for them.
I would try feeding in the enclosure like everyone will mentioned, of course it's only a suggestion for ya.


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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

There is the problem. It's a misconception people have thats its good to feed snakes in a separate enclosure. For one moving a snake after they eat is bad, and for two now he tagged a heat source as soon as he was getting into the feeding tub.
This is why people hook train or do things to condition the snake before picking them up so that they don't think it's feeding time. I rub my snakes with the hook or I just pick up the hide and rub them with the hide a little bit. When I'm feeding I put the Rat in front of the hide door and right away they know it's time to eat and strike from inside. One thing I wouldn't do is dangle my finger in front of the hide door because that would be a trigger for them.
I would try feeding in the enclosure like everyone will mentioned, of course it's only a suggestion for ya.


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+1 and I also feed live, they will eat 100% of the time if it's live. I let the fella go in front of my beeps hide and it's usually pretty quick right after that.

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Originally Posted by dakski

Sorry your little guy turned on you, LOL! I wouldn't take it personally. At least he has a good feeding response! My female hasn't eaten in almost 5 months!

Having said all that, do you feed live or F/T?

Are you against feeding in the enclosure?

I feed all my snakes in the enclosure and have had zero issues. Well, had a (mistaken) feeding bite this past week from my BCI, but she was more upset it seemed than I was. I am now hook training her.

My corn is aggressive at feeding, as is my BCI (lol - see above), and my BP can be from time to time, but I still feed in the enclosure. I have heard of more stories where feeding outside led to trouble than the other way around.

Others can chime in, but I'd be interested to see what your responses are.

It could also be dumb luck that it happened twice in a couple of weeks. I am sure he doesn't hate you! Just a confused little guy.

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I feed him F/T or fresh killed. I am going to try feeding from his enclosure from now on, makes it easier for us all lol.

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Originally Posted by kathleenwdwrd

I feed him F/T or fresh killed. I am going to try feeding from his enclosure from now on, makes it easier for us all lol.

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Cool. I feed all my snakes F/T. Better for all involved in my opinion.

I think the switch to feeding in the enclosure will be pretty easy.

Just make sure you have a nice set of hemostats/tongs, etc. to hold the rat!

I don't know if it makes a difference, but I also feed all my snakes (nocturnal - BP, BCI, and Corn) at night in near darkness. I only handle with lights on in room and/or tank.

My corn and BP don't even think food unless it's nighttime and the lights are out, but then, especially with the corn, watch out!

Behira, my BCI, has a real strong feeding response, and has only been with me for a few months, so we will see how that will work with her. However, even my corn, got conditioned pretty quick and has never mistaken me for food.

I had my Killer Bee do this to me too, after 2 days of owning her.
I've concluded it was an exploratory bite, caused by my errors and strong feeding response.
I was hot and sweaty after being at the gym I wanted to handle my new snakes didn't wash or sanitize my hands :colbert:
Picked up my killer bee was holding her in one hand and just moving stuff around in her tub, she started rubbing her nose at my wrist, I just assumed she was looking to hide up my sleeve, a friends cornsnake had done so in the past, she opened her mouth bit down and threw 2 coils round my hand, I screamed a little and shook my arm she released pretty soon after, I was more shocked than anything it was surprisingly not that painful but bled out a fair bit I put her back and washed the bite.
I messaged the previous owner a lady who had thinned down her collection due to having a new child she was shocked as her 4 year old daughter used to handle the snake, but she did say she was a good feeder very greedy dustbin of a royal.
I concluded that she has a really, really strong feeding response.
I made sure I handled her the next day and as often as I can, however after coming out of a shed so not being handled and hungry, she was in s position tracking any heat signature and even striking at the side or top of the tub if heat and movement seemed in range.
After researching a little I take a few precautions with her, I always use sanitizer before dealing with her.
I open her tub every day look around for waste, change water etc.
I handle her as often as I can.
If she is due a feed she will come out of her hide in a ready pose, if this happens I use an old vest and drop it on or tap her head with it, this makes her hide her head and realise its not feeding time, I can then pick her up and handle her, I usually weigh her too.
Because she has such a strong feeding response I have to take these precautions, to be honest I am still a bit wary of her but she hasn't bit me again since.
My other royal is a lot easier to just pick up and handle, but the killer bee requires caution when she is hungry.

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Originally Posted by Forgotten

I find this very interesting, I have no advice but simply my opinion on snake bites and my experience.

I've taken a few bites from my 100+ lb german shepherd / rotty mix (unintentionally) as him and my other dog sometimes get too rough playing and I have to separate them and those bites hurt and do a lot more damage than a ball python ever could but it doesn't scare me off of letting my dogs sleep in my bed or play with me.
We are naturally scared of what we don't know and with public perception of " the big bad snakes" we associate them with danger and don't take the time to get to know the animals and understand them like we do with dogs, creating a fear of them.

Ball pythons don't hurt when they bite but the thought of being bit by a snake is intimidating and I feel like it comes from the overall perception of snakes being dangerous and bad. Of course no one on this site believes that but, personally, I think it goes back to your natural instinct and what you were taught of snakes being dangerous.

When I was living with my parents they wouldn't allow me to have snakes and they were terrified of them so I didn't handle a snake until I was 17 and living on my own.
For 17 years I was taught that snakes were bad, leave them alone, and now sometimes when I see one of my snakes (who I know is friendly) coiled up or looking defensive I start to get nervous about being bit and I think subconsciously its your brain telling you what its been told for years: Snakes = Danger

I just picked up a large adult female bp (largest snake Ive ever handled) and seeing how big she is does make me nervous to get bit but as Dakski said, its the anticipation of being bit which can lead you to be more timid and more likely to get bit, the bit itself isn't so bad.

I'm very excited to start handling her once she's settled in, despite my intimidation, because is anything fun if it doesn't get your heart racing?

All in all, don't be worried to get bit, it might happen, it might not, you're not gonna die or even be hurt. Try to get to know and understand your snakes body language and signs of when its scared or defensive because its not biting out of aggression, your snake is really sizing you up and planning an elaborate jail break to devour you and your family in your sleep.



Or at least that's what they want us to think :snake::snake::snake::snake::snake:

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Now you've ruined it for me. It's time to go back to the unicorn forum for me. Bye