When to give up

I have had problems with three last years hatchlings. Two of them have deformed jaws. One of them is eating but is missing other half of its lower theeth now in weight 110grams. I tried to switch to f/t and it stopped eating. One a bit short jaw takes food stranglin but wont eat, and one with normal jaw doing the same thing, they both weight about 80grams. I have had to assist feed these two. When to give up with these snakes, they are now about 5 to 6 months of age.

I don't do any breeding but was just wondering - it they were born deformed isn't it customary to cull them at birth?? What are your plans for them if they do survive? Do you plan to keep them as pets?

I took in a special needs boa a couple of years ago but he wasn't deformed in any way - thank god.

It's up to you, personally if they can't eat on their own and have to be assist fed I wouldn't keep them alive. That isn't good quality of life to me. And the one that eats, why not give it live? It's a pain in the behind but at least it'll eat something on it's own.

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Originally Posted by L.West

I don't do any breeding but was just wondering - it they were born deformed isn't it customary to cull them at birth?? What are your plans for them if they do survive? Do you plan to keep them as pets?

I took in a special needs boa a couple of years ago but he wasn't deformed in any way - thank god.

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The deformation is not that sewere that I had culled them. I was thinking keeping them as pets or giving them away.

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Originally Posted by MD_Pythons

It's up to you, personally if they can't eat on their own and have to be assist fed I wouldn't keep them alive. That isn't good quality of life to me. And the one that eats, why not give it live? It's a pain in the behind but at least it'll eat something on it's own.

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The reason why I'm trying to switch is becouse it's illegal to feed live here. The two babies can swollow the pray on their own, when assisted I have only put the asf nose to the mouth and they take it. I dont understand why they dont eat on its own when they can swollow on their own and are willing to take the food:confusd:

That's a personal question that only you can answer as it comes down to your definition of quality of life and also what you're willing and/or able to do for that animal (time spent caring for, financials, etc.). This goes for any animal really, not just reptiles.

My go to in determining euthanasia in any case is: "is this animal still going to be suffering 6 months to a year from now, even with medical intervention? Is there ever a chance of it being happy, content or thriving? Is this 'problem' fixable?" This sort of line of thinking makes it easier for me to determine what I consider quality of life.

Again, those are my personal guidelines for making that type of decision and there are definitely people that are going to disagree with me; I'm very critical and realistic with things like this and try to remove emotion out of the decision making process as emotions usually just complicate the reality of what needs to be done, unfortunately.

Also, just to add some extra perspective to your decision making:

Your batch of snake-lings:
5-6 months old
80g - 110g

Average snake-lings:*
5-6 months old
288g - 346g

Of course, averages are just that, averages and don't apply to all situations equally but based off of those averages, your noodles aren't even close to thriving....

*stats taken from The Dragon's Den

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Originally Posted by WastelandExotics

That's a personal question that only you can answer as it comes down to your definition of quality of life and also what you're willing and/or able to do for that animal (time spent caring for, financials, etc.). This goes for any animal really, not just reptiles.

My go to in determining euthanasia in any case is: "is this animal still going to be suffering 6 months to a year from, even with medical intervention? Is there ever a chance of it being happy, content or thriving? Is this 'problem' fixable?" This sort of line of thinking makes it easier for me to determine what I consider quality of life.

Again, those are my personal guidelines for making that type of decision and there are definitely people that are going to disagree with me; I'm very critical and realistic with things like this and try to remove emotion out of the decision making process as emotions usually just complicate the reality of what needs to be done, unfortunately.

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I'm worrying that long term poor eating is going to affect internal organs. I'm willing to take care of them but dont know is it reasonable thing to do. They are active though and does seem otherwise healthy.

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Originally Posted by Heini86

I'm worrying that long term poor eating is going to affect internal organs. I'm willing to take care of them but dont know is it reasonable thing to do. They are active though and does seem otherwise healthy.

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Malnutrition will have internal physical effects generally, yes. If the body isn't getting what it needs to function normally, there is a possibility of long-term organ damage in most cases. I'm not outright saying that these snakes are malnutritioned but based off of the average weight that they should be at vs. what they are at, they're definitely not getting everything that they need to grow and thrive, despite your best efforts.

And they may appear to be healthy but assist feeding isn't exactly a relaxing process for most snakes and the stress can also effect their health and quality of life.

Also, I don't know where you live but you have to consider the possible fine you'd face for feeding live (wouldn't even begin to know how much it would cost you). I would imagine that it would be hard for anyone to know that you, in fact, feed live but stranger things have happened and that needs to be something that you factor into your final decision.

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Originally Posted by Heini86

The reason why I'm trying to switch is becouse it's illegal to feed live here. The two babies can swollow the pray on their own, when assisted I have only put the asf nose to the mouth and they take it. I dont understand why they dont eat on its own when they can swollow on their own and are willing to take the food:confusd:

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I'm very sorry to hear about the problems you're having with these poor little guys. That's a really hard choice you have to make... :( But, it is illegal to feed live rats to snakes in your area, though??? There are actually areas where that is a law?

No matter what animals you are breeding you should have a plan and technique for culling animals. I used to raise Canaries and there are government regulations and guidelines on culling animals. Just about the most universal way is to gas them with CO2. I've tried it on snakes before, it generally just knocks them out but after a while they can be revived. It's probably best to gas with CO2 followed by decapitation.

It's the same with euthanizing rodents before feeding, if you freeze them to death or smash them on a hard surface to kill them it's considered inhumane and the long arm of the law can step in and confiscate all of your animals. Breeders should be prepared to euthanize and know which way is morally and legally acceptable. If you breed anything in large numbers you will always get deformities, I bred Angel fish too and had a lot of weird freaky fish hatch out over the years. The amount of deformity before culling is totally up to the breeder.

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

I'm very sorry to hear about the problems you're having with these poor little guys. That's a really hard choice you have to make... :( But, it is illegal to feed live rats to snakes in your area, though??? There are actually areas where that is a law?

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I believe it is illegal in the U.K., not sure about other places though.

I just read an article about a new law that was passed where it was illegal to boil a live lobster! Not sure where it was though, and I'm not sure how you get fresh lobster if you can't boil them alive???

I'm not aware of any regulations regarding feeding live rodents to snakes here in the US.

I wouldn't think it ethical to give or sell a deformed animal to anyone but if you can give them a basic quality of life and they don't suffer I see no reason to cull them.

As far as this illegal to feed live rodents I think that is due to confusion. In several European countries and the UK it is illegal to cause unnecessary and unreasonable suffering to animals of a certain type such as those with vertebrates. This is more a law against cruelty and enforcing ethical and humane slaughtering of livestock. It has nothing to do with feeding a live feeder animal to a reptile that demands it. I do know that there are even provisions for animals that subsist solely on live food and can not or will not accept pre killed. So no, it is not going to cost you to feed live if you live in the UK.

I've had to assist-feed a few babies. Sometimes when it swallows you can "train" a second feeder behind the first; basically as the back end of the first feeder is disappearing you sneak the head of feeder #2 into the snake's mouth. This is absolutely not power feeding, as the combined weight of the two feeders would be an appropriately-sized meal. With the OP's snakes weighing in at 80 and 100 grams, each of the two feeders would be 6-8 grams.

So, for these snakes that are only eating live, I would start with a live feeder and train the f/t behind it. Eventually the snake will figure out that f/t feeders are food and you won't need to use live any more.

An alternative to using a live feeder to start the assist-feeding process is to use the hind leg cut from a f/t feeder. You put the leg in hock-first so it's folded in half, with the cut end and the toes pointed out of the snake's mouth. You need to have it sized so that it's easy for the snake to swallow but hard for it to spit out; the leg will want to unfold and it gets stuck in the snake's teeth fairly easily. Then you train a whole-prey f/t feeder behind that.

If/when to cull is an ethical decision that only you can make.

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

No matter what animals you are breeding you should have a plan and technique for culling animals. I used to raise Canaries and there are government regulations and guidelines on culling animals. Just about the most universal way is to gas them with CO2. I've tried it on snakes before, it generally just knocks them out but after a while they can be revived. It's probably best to gas with CO2 followed by decapitation.

It's the same with euthanizing rodents before feeding, if you freeze them to death or smash them on a hard surface to kill them it's considered inhumane and the long arm of the law can step in and confiscate all of your animals. Breeders should be prepared to euthanize and know which way is morally and legally acceptable. If you breed anything in large numbers you will always get deformities, I bred Angel fish too and had a lot of weird freaky fish hatch out over the years. The amount of deformity before culling is totally up to the breeder.

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I had impression that co2 does not knok out reptiles like it does rodents, that destroying the brain and cutting the head is right method for culling snakes.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I've had to assist-feed a few babies. Sometimes when it swallows you can "train" a second feeder behind the first; basically as the back end of the first feeder is disappearing you sneak the head of feeder #2 into the snake's mouth. This is absolutely not power feeding, as the combined weight of the two feeders would be an appropriately-sized meal. With the OP's snakes weighing in at 80 and 100 grams, each of the two feeders would be 6-8 grams.

So, for these snakes that are only eating live, I would start with a live feeder and train the f/t behind it. Eventually the snake will figure out that f/t feeders are food and you won't need to use live any more.

An alternative to using a live feeder to start the assist-feeding process is to use the hind leg cut from a f/t feeder. You put the leg in hock-first so it's folded in half, with the cut end and the toes pointed out of the snake's mouth. You need to have it sized so that it's easy for the snake to swallow but hard for it to spit out; the leg will want to unfold and it gets stuck in the snake's teeth fairly easily. Then you train a whole-prey f/t feeder behind that.

If/when to cull is an ethical decision that only you can make.

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Thank for the great info, I'll try chain feeding next time. I desided to give them one or two months time and then thats that. I live in Finland, here live feeding is illegal, only when animals life is in danger you can feed live pray.