Treating My First Respiratory Infection

Well... I knew the day would come sooner or later... I discovered my Mystic girl - Misty in her tub with her mouth hanging open and wheezing today. Sadly, it occurred to me that she has been like this for probably 3 or 4 days, though. She has been refusing food, so I have been just leaving her alone as much as possible. I check in on her daily to make sure she has water and her tub is clean, but the last time I actually got a good look at her a few days ago she was like this. I thought she was just in a mood and being hissy even though she has never been like that. So, I didn't think much of it and I feel horrible now! :( Another lesson learned... As a side note, I know exactly why she got the RI and the problem was resolved a few days ago. Long story short, I had been battling with the temperature and humidity in my snake room for a few days when it got really cold here and discovered some very drafty areas in the room. I did some winter weatherization and everything has been perfect since. I've been keeping the temperature in my snake room between 77 and 79 degrees and the humidity has been staying between 55% and 60%...

Anyway, the moment I realized what was going on today I immediately setup a vapor chamber by placing a smaller tub with holes in it inside of a larger air-tight container. I boiled a small pan of water and dropped in some Vicks, along with a few drops of Eucalyptus Oil. After placing her inside the smaller tub I placed a towel on top of it with the pan of water and left her sealed in the chamber for 10 minutes. Afterwards, I returned her to a nice clean tub with some fresh water. I also boosted the hotspot temps up a couple degrees in that rack as well, because I realized they were only running about 87 degrees. Now, the hot sides are running about 90 degrees and the cool side around 78... Also, for what it's worth, i'm leaving the pan of vicks/Eucalyptus water sitting on top of my oil space heater for awhile and the whole room smells like Vicks. Immediately after the treatment, she was still opening and closing her mouth, but I didn't note any wheezing. I just checked on her again maybe an hour after the treatment and I still can't hear anymore wheezing, but she is still opening and closing her mouth. I examined the inside of her mouth pretty good with a flashlight while she had her mouth opened wide and there are a few small bubbles toward the back of her mouth. Not what I would consider excessive, but a few... She does seem to be a little better, since she doesn't seem to be wheezing now, but she definitely isn't cured...

Sorry to make this such a long post... What i'm wondering is, how long should I wait before doing another treatment, how many of them should I do and how often? Also, what is the longest I should leave her in the vapor chamber during treatments?

Honestly, since you are taking Dexter to the Vet, I would just make this girl tag along..It shouldn't make the bill that much higher since you are going at the same time, just make sure you keep them in separate tubs and that even you wear examination gloves and change them between handling the snakes. Do not cradle them against your body and if you do, just bring an extra shirt or jacket and change in between.

It may just end up saving you an additional trip to the vet.

Once they yawn and have bubbles, I wouldn't muck around with home treatments.

But thats just in my humble opinion.

You are really getting hammered lately, I hope that all your babies will get better soon!!

I seem to be chasing your comments but I promise I am not ;)

Vicks and eucalyptus oil are great for treating symptoms but they are not a cure. If this is truly an RI the best thing to do while waiting for a vet visit is to increase temps like you did. Even up to 92 would be advisable. Think of it as a temperature when you have a cold. As far as having an RI, it could be bacterial, viral, fungal, or a combination. Each would need to be treated with separate meds, not home remedies. Raising temps might relieve symptoms and may help to have a snake's own immune system fight the infection. The bad news is if it is a RI, it most likely has gone unnoticed for a while (they don't just suddenly catch a cold) and most likely the snake's immune system is compromised.

If this is a RI for sure, don't home remedy it, snakes don't respond to that and it can't cure fungal or viral, go to a vet. If you are not sure it is a RI, then keep watching for more mouth gaping, confusion, mucous, discharge, lethargy, and trouble breathing.

The Vicks treatment was big 20-25 years ago when we didnt have many herp vets in NY and no Internet.. With that said, I have never heard of a single time that Vicks helped a snake at all. There is a Bacterial or Viral infection present and only the correct meds will help. There are people that use the F10 fogger but still to this day I do not know of a case that it cured a RI. I do know of snakes that have basically kicked them on their own, but I do not know how far along they were into the RI & I do not know enough to help. As far as reptiles being sick Id be to the Vet asap.


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I am definitely planning on taking this girl to the vet at the same time I take my Blood. Hopefully, the vet will be able to just give me some antibiotics for her... Unfortunately, it is probably going to be a few days before i'm able to take them due to road conditions and finances... Zina, you don't know the half of it... Just about everything that could go wrong has been going wrong lately! For example, my hot water heater also decided to stop working. It has just been one thing after the next lately... I'm definitely hoping for some better luck soon!

The person, who I got this treatment information from claims that he has treated many RIs and has had a 100% success rate with the Vicks and Eucalyptus treatments. I have no idea how true that is, but that's what he says... For the time being, can you guys tell me how often and for how long it will be safe to give her these treatments until I can get her to the vet?

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Originally Posted by Mr Sully

There are people that use the F10 fogger but still to this day I do not know of a case that it cured a RI. I do know of snakes that have basically kicked them on their own, but I do not know how far along they were into the RI & I do not know enough to help.

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I have had several brought to me over the years that are now doing great. ;)

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leaving the pan of vicks/Eucalyptus

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out of all the things that can be done this is the worse one, I still do not get where people get those idea, the pulmorery system of a snake is not like one of a human and everyone know that oils are VERY bad for snakes.

Even if it was working like with human all it would do is alleviate symptoms, it would not be curing anything.

A RI is not a cold that goes away with time and for which symptoms can be aliviated until gone, a RI would be the equivalent of a pneumonia if you had to make a comparison when it comes to the seriousness of it.

It's not something that goes away, not something that you treat at home with stupid homemade remedies.

1# RI must be diagnosed, there are things starting off like RI that are not, but I will stop there on that to avoid paranoia.

2# once diagnosed it is important to know what cause the RI, there are several causes, once that is assessed the proper anti-biotic will be prescribe for no less than 30 days.

Finally the sooner it is done the better, the longer you wait the harder it will be for the animal to recover.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

the pulmorery system of a snake is not like one of a human.

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I was thinking the same thing, like, “How on earth can anyone think that eucalyptus or Vick’s supposed to help a reptile respiratory infection?” It is strange to me how some people can treat them like humans. You might as well make the snake chicken soup. [emoji38]


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I'm 99% sure what caused the RI... The temps and humidity were all over the place in my snake room for a few days when it got down 0 - 7 degrees here last week. Like I mentioned, I discovered some really bad drafts in the room, which I fixed and everything has been perfect again. I was almost anticipating RI issues to start surfacing because of it. The sides and backs of my racks are enclosed and the temps in the tubs were alright, but I had to keep opening and closing the heater vent in the room to keep it warm enough, because my oil space heater wasn't keeping up. So, opening and closing the heater vent also kept causing the humidity to go up and down and I kept misting all of the tubs down once or twice a day to make sure the tubs themselves had plenty of humidity. In my opinion, it's pretty obvious what caused this and i'll be really lucky to not have other snakes ending up with RIs... :(

As far as treating in a vapor chamber with Vicks and Eucalyptus, all I know is there are A LOT of people using that method of treatment that are saying it works. Perhaps it does only help the symptoms, but that is my goal right now until I can get her to the vet... I am going to call tomorrow and maybe he will be nice and just prescribe me some antibiotics for her until I can get her in there...

Here are some facts about Eucalyptus Oil that I found:

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-...ntial-oil.html

In addition to a lot of other unrelated health benefits, here are some key benefits they talk about on that page:

The health benefits of eucalyptus oil are well-known and wide-ranging, and its properties include being an anti-inflammatory, antispasmodic, decongestant, deodorant, antiseptic, antibacterial, stimulating, and other medicinal qualities.


Treats Respiratory Problems


Eucalyptus essential oil is effective for treating a number of respiratory problems including cold, cough, running nose, sore throat, asthma, nasal congestion, bronchitis, and sinusitis. Eucalyptus oil is antibacterial, antifungal, antimicrobial, antiviral, anti-inflammatory and decongestant in nature, which makes it a good ingredient in many medicines that treat respiratory problems. A study published in Laryngoscope in 2004 shows its usefulness in treating nonbacterial sinusitis. Patients suffering from nonbacterial sinusitis showed faster improvement when given the medicine containing eucalyptus oil. Gargles of eucalyptus oil mixed with warm water are consistently effective in treating sore throats.


Asthma is a condition that affects millions of people around the world, and there are many known treatments for the condition. One of them is the use of eucalyptus essential oil. Simply massage 1-3 drops onto the chest and the soothing effect of the aroma and vapors will calm the throat and dilate the blood vessels, which will allow more oxygen into the lungs and normal breathing can be achieved. The anti-inflammatory properties of eucalyptus essential oil also come into play in using it to get relief from asthmatic symptoms.


I don't see how this could possibly be a bad thing...

Because those articles are talking about how it effects humans, not snakes


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Eucalyptus is contra-indicated for reptiles and birds. If you want to nebulize anything to alleviate your snake's symptoms just use clean water, it's just as effective without the phenols that are harmful for reptiles.

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

I'm 99% sure what caused the RI... The temps and humidity were all over the place in my snake room for a few days when it got down 0 - 7 degrees here last week. Like I mentioned, I discovered some really bad drafts in the room, which I fixed and everything has been perfect again. I was almost anticipating RI issues to start surfacing because of it...

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Im certainly not a Vet.. But after owning Pythons for 30 years my feeling is that if your snake came down with a RI it wouldn't be from 3 days of cool drafts and no humidity. My girls prefer their cooler hides and they go down to 76 at night when my house goes down to 60. It was -10 to -17 here in NY last week for 6 days and - 7 right now and believe me any home has drafts at those outside temps. Im not busting your chops Im just saying something else is most likely going on to weaken the immune system if it caught a RI that quickly. Now if your tubs went down to 50 for a few days that might be another ball game.. But a draft when they are in a heated tub wont cause a RI in a healthy snake IMO. If you cant get to the Vet right away read up on F10 & a Fogger. Toss the Vicks. Good luck with your Noodle [emoji1360]


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You need to STOP that treatment ASAP this is a snake not a human. You are doing more harm than good.

You can't compare how things affect humans to how they affect animals.
For example...eucalyptus oil is toxic to cats. Even just the essential oil being diluted and diffused. Cats are missing many of the metabolizing enzymes in the liver that other mammals have. Birds are even more susceptible and sensitive then that.
Before good and experienced veterinarians were available for reptiles, people naturally turned to treatments they knew helped in human and other animal applications. Some of the snakes treated like that, may have simply survived despite the wrong treatment, not because of it.
I know you want to do something to make her feel better. It's difficult to watch a beloved animal being in distress.
I believe the best thing you can do now is to raise the temperature slightly, keep the humidity at a good level and minimize stress until you can get her to a vet.
I hope that your babies will get better soon and that things will look up for you soon..


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Eucalyptus oils contain aromatic phenols, similar to the ones found in cedar. These phenols can be caustic to the snake's lungs. It may have some efficacy in killing bacteria, but the main issue in medicine in general is killing the bacteria, virus, parasite, etc with the least possible damage to the host organism.

Just a quick update on this poor sick girl... She is still hanging in there... She seems to be going into blue now, too, just to add to her discomfort, though... :( As per most of your advice, I stopped giving her the vapor chamber treatments after two times. I'm definitely going to be getting a ZooMed fogger and some f10 to have on hand for the future, though! That seems to be the go to RI treatment for a lot of people. She still doesn't seem to be wheezing anymore, but she's still sitting with her mouth open here and there. Her and one of my Bloods both have vet appointments on Thursday and will be treated...

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

Just a quick update on this poor sick girl... She is still hanging in there... She seems to be going into blue now, too, just to add to her discomfort, though... :( As per most of your advice, I stopped giving her the vapor chamber treatments after two times. I'm definitely going to be getting a ZooMed fogger and some f10 to have on hand for the future, though! That seems to be the go to RI treatment for a lot of people. She still doesn't seem to be wheezing anymore, but she's still sitting with her mouth open here and there. Her and one of my Bloods both have vet appointments on Thursday and will be treated...

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You are all in my thoughts, been wondering how your babies are doing...

You are doing the best you can, Thursday will be here in no time and then you can start getting aggressive on the treatment. I am hoping for the best possible outcome, that you can beat this before long and they recover uneventfully...

I wonder if it would be advisable to do a tube feeding of sorts for the Bloods first meal after treatment ? May be easier to digest ?? You could ask the vet about that. Most likely that is a few weeks out, though..to give him time to recover thoroughly..

Good luck with everything :)

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

Just a quick update on this poor sick girl... She is still hanging in there... She seems to be going into blue now, too, just to add to her discomfort, though... :( As per most of your advice, I stopped giving her the vapor chamber treatments after two times. I'm definitely going to be getting a ZooMed fogger and some f10 to have on hand for the future, though! That seems to be the go to RI treatment for a lot of people. She still doesn't seem to be wheezing anymore, but she's still sitting with her mouth open here and there. Her and one of my Bloods both have vet appointments on Thursday and will be treated...

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Be advised that the only F10 product approved for nebulizing and treating RI is the antispetic solution. That is not available over the counter in this country and only available per a vet script. Not wanting to discourage you but any other F10 product is topical only meaning it is not designed or approved for ingestion or inhalation.

As per F10's site

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The active components of F10 disinfectants are cell poisons and act on the cell membrane rupturing it with loss of essential components: destroy enzymes within the cell: disrupt DNA or RNA sequence: interact with other essential elements within the cell. Interact with ~ SH bonds and rupture them. At high concentrations will in addition fix the proteinaceous components of the cell. Additional activity is via the other components which aid the penetration of the cell wall or spore wall, act as enzymic poisons, chelating agents for certain essential metals, fix proteins, etc. Generally it can be described as a multi - lethal action and not specifically aimed at one site on or in the cell wall.

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Here is the MSDS sheet for it. Scroll down to the toxicity section and you will see it is not toxic in diluted form.
http://www.f10products.co.uk/admin_u...20Oct%2016.pdf

I use the stuff to clean water bowls etc and never had a problem. I have heard people use it in nebulizers for very early cases of RI but for an advanced case, i would take the animal to the vet.

As for a nebulizer, skip the Zoo Med fogger thing. just go buy a nebulizer from Walmart or Rite Aid or Walgreens etc. Probably be cheaper and work the same.

But like i said, if your snake has advanced RI, best to just go to the vet.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Here is the MSDS sheet for it. Scroll down to the toxicity section and you will see it is not toxic in diluted form.
http://www.f10products.co.uk/admin_u...20Oct%2016.pdf

I use the stuff to clean water bowls etc and never had a problem. I have heard people use it in nebulizers for very early cases of RI but for an advanced case, i would take the animal to the vet.

As for a nebulizer, skip the Zoo Med fogger thing. just go buy a nebulizer from Walmart or Rite Aid or Walgreens etc. Probably be cheaper and work the same.

But like i said, if your snake has advanced RI, best to just go to the vet.

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What he said^^^. What is used in the US is F10sc Only. The other forms are Toxic and need to be rinsed off even when used for cleaning. The SC you spray and wipe down. No rinse.


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Thanks for all of your insights and concerns. You guys are the best!

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Here is the MSDS sheet for it. Scroll down to the toxicity section and you will see it is not toxic in diluted form.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

http://www.f10products.co.uk/admin_u...20Oct%2016.pdf

I use the stuff to clean water bowls etc and never had a problem. I have heard people use it in nebulizers for very early cases of RI but for an advanced case, i would take the animal to the vet.

As for a nebulizer, skip the Zoo Med fogger thing. just go buy a nebulizer from Walmart or Rite Aid or Walgreens etc. Probably be cheaper and work the same.

But like i said, if your snake has advanced RI, best to just go to the vet.

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Sauzo, I was already looking into nebulizers, because they are definitely a lot cheaper. My concerns with those are I don't think they really kick out a whole lot of steam. Also, the "reservoirs" on them are very small since they are only meant to have a little medication in them, etc. From what i've learned, f10 is supposed to be diluted down to 3 milliliters to 1 liter of water and the foggers are supposed to run for 20 minutes while the animal is being treated. Then the animal is left in the chamber for an additional 20 minutes or until the fog clears. I do agree that this shouldn't be considered a cure and should be used in combination with antibiotics, but at least this is a safe way to help keep the animals breathing easier during their recovery...

Go to 2min 50sec. Its on RI & what some people do with F10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJCnPfuqaBM&sns=em


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr Sully

Go to 2min 50sec. Its on RI & what some people do with F10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJCnPfuqaBM&sns=em


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Exactly...

I just got him from taking Misty and Dexter to the vets... ALL of her RI symptoms have been completely gone for 2 days now... No more gaping whatsoever for the past 2 days and there hasn't been any wheezing ever since the very first of the two 10 minute Vicks/Eucalyptus steam chamber treatments that I did with her. There is something to be said about that, but I agree that it's probably not a great idea... I will definitely be using a fogger with F10 in the future! Anyway, the vet examined her and she did still have lots of little tiny bubbles in the back of her throat. So, he brought in a vitamins/Gentocin antibiotic injection and showed me how to give the injections. He sent me home with 6 more injections and I will have to inject her once every 3 days for the next 18 days... I'm not looking forward to having to do that, but I have no choice, but to put my big boy panties on, man up and do it! As mentioned in Dexter's thread, I will have to administer his medicine orally, So, on the bright side, I will be gaining some really good experience treating these two...

As a side note, since this girl has always been somewhat of a problem feeder, I have decided to switch her from a 41 qt. tub to a 28 qt. for awhile and see if she will start eating more regularly. She is too big for a 28 qt. tub in my opinion, but if it helps her start eating better for awhile... Her weight has dropped from 1,080 grams on 10/11/17 to 995 grams today at the vets, because she has refused a lot of meals. I definitely need to start get some weight on her as soon as she finishes shedding!

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

Here are some facts about Eucalyptus Oil that I found:

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-...ntial-oil.html

In addition to a lot of other unrelated health benefits, here are some key benefits they talk about on that page:

The health benefits of eucalyptus oil are well-known and wide-ranging, and its properties include being an anti-inflammatory, antispasmodic, decongestant, deodorant, antiseptic, antibacterial, stimulating, and other medicinal qualities.


Treats Respiratory Problems


Eucalyptus essential oil is effective for treating a number of respiratory problems including cold, cough, running nose, sore throat, asthma, nasal congestion, bronchitis, and sinusitis. Eucalyptus oil is antibacterial, antifungal, antimicrobial, antiviral, anti-inflammatory and decongestant in nature, which makes it a good ingredient in many medicines that treat respiratory problems. A study published in Laryngoscope in 2004 shows its usefulness in treating nonbacterial sinusitis. Patients suffering from nonbacterial sinusitis showed faster improvement when given the medicine containing eucalyptus oil. Gargles of eucalyptus oil mixed with warm water are consistently effective in treating sore throats.


Asthma is a condition that affects millions of people around the world, and there are many known treatments for the condition. One of them is the use of eucalyptus essential oil. Simply massage 1-3 drops onto the chest and the soothing effect of the aroma and vapors will calm the throat and dilate the blood vessels, which will allow more oxygen into the lungs and normal breathing can be achieved. The anti-inflammatory properties of eucalyptus essential oil also come into play in using it to get relief from asthmatic symptoms.


I don't see how this could possibly be a bad thing...

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Yes! Eucalyptus oil can help with RI's, but for humans. This information you found is based on human antomony. Snake antomony is very different than human as you know and I think that is what Deborah was trying to say. Hopefully you can get to your vet soon!

Yes, and I agree with that school of thought... At the same time, two 10 minute treatments completely stopped the horrible raspy wheezing and gaping and it didn't kill her, though. It didn't cure the RI completely, but it sure helped her to be able to breath until I could get her to the vet. It could have possibly saved her life. As per my last post, she went to the vet yesterday...

FYI. Make sure the humidity is excellent and the snake has warm water available while administering gentamicin. This antibiotic is particularly taxing on reptile kidneys.

Any news on your babies ?

Hope all are doing better now after the treatments.