Possible Cinnamon or no

Hello everyone,

Just got these two beauties both het pied/albino male & female. Parents were Black Pastel Pied (Male) x Cinnamon Albino (Female). Do you guys think that either of them are low expression cinnamons? The second image is the clutch picture from the breeder, they are the two bottom babies.

Thanks,
Caren

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/img_0299.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/img_0335.jpg

I am terrible at spotting morph traits but I can say those are some beautiful snakes and that I can say for sure

I don't see cinnamon in either to be honest. :oops:

Nope. No Cinny there.

Alright, that’s fine they are beauties either way now just to raise them up and hopefully get lucky on those albino pieds 👍. Thanks everyone

Really nice color, and unique spotting.


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that looks like a pair of Cinny's to me. the keyholes are there. also a belly/side belly pix would help. i think they are just high dorsal pattern examples. also i think the double het influence is doing some cool stuff to the pattern in the lower third. this looks like a project w/ great potential. congrats on the pickup!

also those 8-Ball's look awesome esp. the one w/ the ringer.

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Originally Posted by Ax01

that looks like a pair of Cinny's to me. the keyholes are there. also a belly/side belly pix would help. i think they are just high dorsal pattern examples. also i think the double het influence is doing some cool stuff to the pattern in the lower third. this looks like a project w/ great potential. congrats on the pickup!

also those 8-Ball's look awesome esp. the one w/ the ringer.

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To be honest, I didn’t want to go against members that have a lot more experience than me but now that someone else sees it, I feel a little more comfortable giving my opinion. I think both look like they could be cinnamon or even black pastel, I will admit I have difficulty telling them apart all the time, but since there was a parent with each, either could be a possibility. The main trait that leads me to think they could be is the way the side pattern starts to blend together towards the back third of the animal. This is a well known characteristic of both black pastel and cinnamon but I’m not sure if it happens in normals or not, I actually have not seen many normals. The reason I bring up the possibility of black pastel is because they typically look darker to me than cinnamon, the slight color difference is really the only way I’ve learned to tell cinnamon and black pastel apart. Since these two look pretty dark I feel like it shouldn’t be ruled out especially considering one of the parents had black pastel.

If the parents didn’t have other things going on, I’d be super interested in seeing them just to see what kind of pattern they have to possibly narrow down if these two have patterns closer to one or the other.

I think they are both beautiful pickups either way and still give you a ton of breeding potential. Congrats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ax01

that looks like a pair of Cinny's to me. the keyholes are there. also a belly/side belly pix would help. i think they are just high dorsal pattern examples. also i think the double het influence is doing some cool stuff to the pattern in the lower third. this looks like a project w/ great potential. congrats on the pickup!

also those 8-Ball's look awesome esp. the one w/ the ringer.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rufretic

To be honest, I didn’t want to go against members that have a lot more experience than me but now that someone else sees it, I feel a little more comfortable giving my opinion. I think both look like they could be cinnamon or even black pastel, I will admit I have difficulty telling them apart all the time, but since there was a parent with each, either could be a possibility. The main trait that leads me to think they could be is the way the side pattern starts to blend together towards the back third of the animal. This is a well known characteristic of both black pastel and cinnamon but I’m not sure if it happens in normals or not, I actually have not seen many normals. The reason I bring up the possibility of black pastel is because they typically look darker to me than cinnamon, the slight color difference is really the only way I’ve learned to tell cinnamon and black pastel apart. Since these two look pretty dark I feel like it shouldn’t be ruled out especially considering one of the parents had black pastel.

If the parents didn’t have other things going on, I’d be super interested in seeing them just to see what kind of pattern they have to possibly narrow down if these two have patterns closer to one or the other.

I think they are both beautiful pickups either way and still give you a ton of breeding potential. Congrats.

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i think they're Cinny's b/c their keyholes/alien heads are alot cleaner than Black Pastels and lack of orange. a shed or two might reveal more.

Cinny's and Black Pastels sometimes have patterns that run together but most often they look like this Cinny combo: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-friendly-girl these ones connect and look more distorted probably an effect of the het genes.

really nice pickups.

here's two of my Black Pastel poss. double hets for comparison:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/v2P7tePl.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/sFZ1s1ll.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/73YYQ50l.jpg

:)

I can definitely see your point about the key holes, most cinnamons look much cleaner than the black pastels, at least on wobp. You may be on to something with the pattern blending in the back 3rd of the animal because of het influence. I was comparing them to a bunch of black pastel hatchlings that one of my breeder friend has, they all have that back 3rd blending going on in the side pattern too, but I believe his are all hets as well. My black pastels all have a lot more going on so they aren’t the best for comparison but my cinnamon also shows it a little bit she is also genetic black back though, so again, hard to compare.

Wow guys, thank you so much for all the feedback. They are beautiful pair and can’t wait till they reach size. The boy is a little firecracker, thinks he’s the toughest little guy but eats like a champ so no qualms there.

Here are the parents from the breeder Matt Marberg
[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/img_0334.png[/IMG]
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...7cfb605e4.jpeg

Also another question, I was able to pick up an 1.0 Albino Pied 2017 hatchling, should I raise up the Double het male with pos cinnamon to breeding size then get a breeding size female whether it be normal,cinnamon, black pastel or other morph to try to prove he's cinnamon. Because if it turns out that the pair is Cinnamon het Albino Pied i have a slim chance to make Super Cinnamon Albino Pieds (is that just a white snake?)

Not the best image but he'll ship to me once it warms up :)
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...lbino_pied.jpg

Look up a super cinnamon pied

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragonsrahc

Also another question, I was able to pick up an 1.0 Albino Pied 2017 hatchling, should I raise up the Double het male with pos cinnamon to breeding size then get a breeding size female whether it be normal,cinnamon, black pastel or other morph to try to prove he's cinnamon. Because if it turns out that the pair is Cinnamon het Albino Pied i have a slim chance to make Super Cinnamon Albino Pieds (is that just a white snake?)

Not the best image but he'll ship to me once it warms up :)
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...lbino_pied.jpg

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I'm really no expert on morphs, but I've seen the super black pastel albinos, and they're just a white snake with red eyes. Wouldn't super cinnamon do nearly the same thing, making the pied pointless? Either way it's a cool snake.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragonsrahc

Also another question, I was able to pick up an 1.0 Albino Pied 2017 hatchling, should I raise up the Double het male with pos cinnamon to breeding size then get a breeding size female whether it be normal,cinnamon, black pastel or other morph to try to prove he's cinnamon. Because if it turns out that the pair is Cinnamon het Albino Pied i have a slim chance to make Super Cinnamon Albino Pieds (is that just a white snake?)

Not the best image but he'll ship to me once it warms up :)
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...lbino_pied.jpg

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yes, it's called a White Panda. :)

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Originally Posted by tegu

I'm really no expert on morphs, but I've seen the super black pastel albinos, and they're just a white snake with red eyes. Wouldn't super cinnamon do nearly the same thing, making the pied pointless? Either way it's a cool snake.

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not pointless. 1st it would be extremely rare and SUPER COOL!! 2nd it would be a genetic powerhouse as it's a double-recessive and a Super. :gj:


Edit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragonsrahc

Here are the parents from the breeder Matt Marberg
[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/img_0334.png[/IMG]
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...7cfb605e4.jpeg

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very cool! my Super Black Pastel is from Matt, maybe BP's are related. :)

That’s so cool, they might be I believe Matt breeds that male to everything he can. Also I found this ball python on morph market, if I have a chance of producing something like this that would be amazing.
[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/img_0358.png[/IMG]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragonsrahc

That’s so cool, they might be I believe Matt breeds that male to everything he can. Also I found this ball python on morph market, if I have a chance of producing something like this that would be amazing.
[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/img_0358.png[/IMG]

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that is a cool animal. not sure it's Panda tho but it does come Ballroom Pythons who regularly breed Panda's. the snoot looks kinda Panda but the rest of the splotchy body says Blizzard (Albino Super Cinny).