The controversial enclosure is finished

We had a long discussion in an another thread about my new enclosure for my 5 years old and 3,6 foot male ball python. Enclosure size in feet: 2 long, 2,62 deep, 3,30 high. Several members said that the floor space is small and the height is less usable than the floor space. This is the link of that thread, its a long one
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?251465-Would-a-male-ball-python-reach-5-feet/page4

To be honest, i was planning to install only one big board(21x14 inches)in which my BP would lay and stretch on, but after that discussion which we had, I have intalled two such boards for him and one tree branch to climb on in order to utilize the height as much as possible. Some accused me in the past of trolling in some of my threads. Actually i,m not. I have profited from that discussion and now look at that enclosure

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...pslyki0bqz.jpg[/IMG]

I don't expect many positive comments if any at all especially after that last thread!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5d9daca5ba.gif

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by omglolchrisss

I don't expect many positive comments if any at all especially after that last thread!https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...5d9daca5ba.gif

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

---

This is totally not related to the topic. I have never interacted with you before. You jump out of no where to type this!

Dutti, please do not post threads that are for the purpose of starting an argument or upsetting other members. Your thread title and other text clearly shows that you expect for this thread to incite drama. We are not interested in that here.

For those that wish to comment, please do so in a mature and calm manner. Do not make posts that are for the purpose of inciting more drama with others. You can share good information without being argumentative or insulting.

You have all been warned about this multiple times by our moderators. If the argumentative and trollish behavior continues, you will receive large and repeat custom infractions, your threads may be locked and/or posts edited or removed at our discretion. This may also result in a temporary ban from the forum.

This is a place for sharing knowledge and helping each other out. If you cannot do so in a friendly and mature manner and in return, if you cannot accept such help and knowledge in a mature manner (especially when you came here for the purpose of asking for said help), then you do not belong here and should re-evaluate your level of participation on the forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dutti

This is totally not related to the topic. I have never interacted with you before. You jump out of no where to type this!

---

You referenced the other topic in the title by using the word controversial and you posted a link to said topic. lmao and i dont care if you have interracted with me before when I want to comment I will if you dont want comments dont post on a forum. Also that enclosure for a bp is ridiculous deal with it!

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by omglolchrisss

You referenced the other topic in the title by using the word controversial and you posted a link to said topic. lmao and i dont care if you have interracted with me before when I want to comment I will if you dont want comments dont post on a forum. Also that enclosure for a bp is ridiculous deal with it!

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

---

Sure you can comment, but you were not talking about the topic. Returning to the topic now, why is the enclosure ridiculos for a bp? It,s a male bp and it has been mentioned many times that male bp,s are much more arboreal than females. This is not my personal opinion. He is enjoying the height very much and climbing

This is not a suitable enclosure for a ball python, regardless of the sex of the snake. The many reasons why the enclosure is not appropriate were covered in the thread of yours that you already linked to: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-reach-5-feet/. Read it and learn from it and no more discussion on the topic is necessary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dutti

Sure you can comment, but you were not talking about the topic. Returning to the topic now, why is the enclosure ridiculos for a bp? It,s a male bp and it has been mentioned many times that male bp,s are much more arboreal than females. This is not my personal opinion. He is enjoying the height very much and climbing

---

Because ball pythons are not arboreal you will never find a ball python in the wild living in a tree and with the way that setup is the snake basically has no choice.

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

Why reference another thread ? Just update THAT thread then, or start fresh.

But that should entail no mention of "controversy" or "that controversial thread". Unless you have intentions to continue as you began...

However, I will honor the moderators request not to feed into this.



****For the sake of any other snake keepers that may see this****

It is not a good idea because Ball Pythons are MOSTLY terrestrial. In the wild they will climb. Usually found in tree hollows. They seek out hides, just like they do on the ground. There aren't always termite mounds or un-occupied rodent burrows available. Besides if you leave a BP with nowhere to go but "UP" in order to thermo-regulate or try to find a better place, up it will go.
I used to have large 4 ft cages for my adult BP's with some sturdy, thick branches inside. At the highest those branches were about 6 inches off the ground. Every so often I would hear a loud "THUMP" in the night, and I knew from experience, one of them had fallen off the branch again. I would find them under the branch, trying to "right themselves".

As adults they do not make the most graceful nor accomplished climbers and I would hate for one to fall from such a height. Broken neck and ribs certainly a possibility.


**For Dutti** Not arguing with you. Do as you please and for whichever reason. No need to explain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

Why reference another thread ? Just update THAT thread then, or start fresh.

But that should entail no mention of "controversy" or "that controversial thread". Unless you have intentions to continue as you began...

However, I will honor the moderators request not to feed into this.



****For the sake of any other snake keepers that may see this****

It is not a good idea because Ball Pythons are MOSTLY terrestrial. In the wild they will climb. Usually found in tree hollows. They seek out hides, just like they do on the ground. There aren't always termite mounds or un-occupied rodent burrows available. Besides if you leave a BP with nowhere to go but "UP" in order to thermo-regulate or try to find a better place, up it will go.
I used to have large 4 ft cages for my adult BP's with some sturdy, thick branches inside. At the highest those branches were about 6 inches off the ground. Every so often I would hear a loud "THUMP" in the night, and I knew from experience, one of them had fallen off the branch again. I would find them under the branch, trying to "right themselves".

As adults they do not make the most graceful nor accomplished climbers and I would hate for one to fall from such a height. Broken neck and ribs certainly a possibility.


**For Dutti** Not arguing with you. Do as you please and for whichever reason. No need to explain.

---

But everyone can see that in my enclosure he is not living on a tree. He has a good ground space 744 sq. inches while the 40 gallon breeder has 648 sq. inches. And he has 2 side boards on different height levels. A side board is not the same as a tree branch, it offers an extra floor space.

I would consider adding two more shelves on the opposite side for a ladder effect, so if he sould slip and fall could catch himself as well as adding more usable space.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miranda2

I would consider adding two more shelves on the opposite side for a ladder effect, so if he sould slip and fall could catch himself as well as adding more usable space.

---

Lol.. He did fall but that happens only once or twice in the beginning when he is learing. Believe it or not, he did fall the first time i put him there when he tried to come down. But after two minutes he climbed again and repeated the try at the same area where he has fallen down before successfully this time

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

:bolt:

****For the sake of any other snake keepers that may see this****

this is not a suitable enclosure for a ball python. ball pythons are primarily terrestrial, which means they prefer the ground over the air. but that does not mean they won't climb, and that does not mean you cannot provide them height as well. you can provide as much height as you do width; IMO height can be less than, but not more than, width. most of us advocate to provide your beep an opportunity to climb; give them the choice. this enclosure makes it the only option, and it will make for an unhappy snake as the one thing we KNOW ball pythons like is the ground.

will this unsuitable cage kill the snake? probably not. will this cage create stressors on the animal? it absolutely can, and i would never take that risk on my animal. i am far from an expert, so be sure to do your own research from multiple sources and come to your own conclusions.

mistakes are important learning tools. may future snake keepers learn from OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by omglolchrisss

Because ball pythons are not arboreal you will never find a ball python in the wild living in a tree and with the way that setup is the snake basically has no choice.

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

---

Just to play Devil's Advocate ..... there is a detailed article online somewhere by a former Royal Python trapper that includes the specifics of where they actually found the Royals in the wild and there was actually a surprisingly high % of them located in bushes and trees .... sorry ..


I'll try and find the paper or link to it ...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zincubus

Just to play Devil's Advocate ..... there is a detailed article online somewhere by a former Royal Python trapper that includes the specifics of where they actually found the Royals in the wild and there was actually a surprisingly high % of them located in bushes and trees .... sorry ..


I'll try and find the paper or link to it ...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

---

I will help you find it..You have posted that article before in the first page of the following thread
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...arboreal-snake

Because an animal is found in tree does not make him arboreal.

No one is denying their ability to climb they are ever classified as ground dwellers and are not equipped to be in trees like semi-arboreal and arboreal snakes.

When you have an animal in captivity your duty is to understand it's needs and provide for those needs adequately, that means ground dwellers snakes in terrestrial habitats and arboreal snakes in arboreal habitats.

Pretty simple and common sense really

Horizontal thermal gradient. That is all. Even arboreal snakes need this. Don't provide adequate horizontal gradient and your snake suffers. Sorry I had to chime in. This hasn't been pointed out and it is the Number one important aspect of ball python care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

***For the sake of any other snake keepers that may see this***

this is not a suitable enclosure for a ball python. ball pythons are primarily terrestrial, which means they prefer the ground over the air. but that does not mean they won't climb, and that does not mean you cannot provide them height as well. you can provide as much height as you do width; IMO height can be less than, but not more than, width. most of us advocate to provide your beep an opportunity to climb; give them the choice. this enclosure makes it the only option, and it will make for an unhappy snake as the one thing we KNOW ball pythons like is the ground.

will this unsuitable cage kill the snake? probably not. will this cage create stressors on the animal? it absolutely can, and i would never take that risk on my animal. i am far from an expert, so be sure to do your own research from multiple sources and come to your own conclusions.

mistakes are important learning tools. may future snake keepers learn from OP.

---

love this Taylor. you need to increase that font size and make it like a flashing neon sign! Lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zincubus

Just to play Devil's Advocate ..... there is a detailed article online somewhere by a former Royal Python trapper that includes the specifics of where they actually found the Royals in the wild and there was actually a surprisingly high % of them located in bushes and trees .... sorry ..


I'll try and find the paper or link to it ...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

---

There is a lot of information out there, but hardly a lot of it by people that actually DID spend months doing nothing but actually observing Ball Pythons in the wild. That is because of the location and difficulty in doing so.

In 1997 Dr. Steve Gorzula spent 3 month in Ghana doing nothing but that. His team spent the entire time with BP trappers, in different locations. There was a DVD made, but its more like a "home video" with bad quality. That is because of the "rough" living they endured during the time, and the trip's priority was not a quality film, but to collect data. There was no "professional" camera crew.

However, you do get to see them collecting Ball Pythons in the natural habitat. Most were found in burrows and termite mounds. At times they even found several Ball Pythons sharing burrows because burrows are used by all kinds of different animal species and there aren't always enough available. Ball Pythons have a inherited NEED to hide. They WILL go "up" to find a hiding place. When they were found in trees, it was usually in tree hollows. The snakes were looking for places to hide. They do not actively hunt in trees, they are far to slow and thick to do so, unlike true arboreal species who are at home in trees.

Another interesting fact was also that Ball Python would move to and thrive where land was converted to farmland, where de-forestation had taken place. They are not a species that lives in deep forests.

It is also difficult to put actual "Trees" into cages. Meaning, big tree trunks with tree hollows and thick branches, thicker then the snake and easy to maneuver on. Usually, in cages you will find branches that may be sturdy, but barely (if at all) the snakes diameter. Adult Ball Pythons do NOT make good climbers. They do fall off. Even if they figured out, hey, that's the spot I fell off of last time, doesn't make them better or smarter climbers next time.

But to each their own. Personally, I would not want my heavy adult Ball Python falling off a branch 3 foot up in the air. I wouldn't even want them falling off anything higher then a foot up in the air.

I know that you are proud of your enclosure and that your snake is climbing up the branch in it. This, however, does not establish the fact that royal pythons are, indeed, natural climbers. I'm also curious as to how you plan to provide your snake with hides on those ledges.

Look, if it works for you, and your snake lives a long and contented life in this enclosure, more power to you. It proves nothing other than that your snake may just be the exception that proves the rule.

The ultimate question, however, is not what is best for you. The ultimate question is what is good for your snake and, by extension, what is good for royal pythons in general. That's why people come to this site -- to learn, to grow, and to raise healthy snakes. We may differ on the particulars but, ultimately, I believe that we all agree on the result -- raising healthy snakes.

<><Peace

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dadofsix

I know that you are proud of your enclosure and that your snake is climbing up the branch in it. This, however, does not establish the fact that royal pythons are, indeed, natural climbers. I'm also curious as to how you plan to provide your snake with hides on those ledges.

Look, if it works for you, and your snake lives a long and contented life in this enclosure, more power to you. It proves nothing other than that your snake may just be the exception that proves the rule.

The ultimate question, however, is not what is best for you. The ultimate question is what is good for your snake and, by extension, what is good for royal pythons in general. That's why people come to this site -- to learn, to grow, and to raise healthy snakes. We may differ on the particulars but, ultimately, I believe that we all agree on the result -- raising healthy snakes.

<><Peace

---

On each side board there is one plant, one is real and one artificial. They provide a natural hide. I could provide additional classical hides, but the snake must not feel the same all over the enclosure. As long as those plants provide a natural hide its ok

I would respectfully ask you to consider that what YOU feel is an appropriate hide is not necessarily the same as what your royal python feels is an appropriate hide. And how will your snake regulate its temperature if all of the hides are on the same side of the enclosure?

<><Peace

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dadofsix

I would respectfully ask you to consider that what YOU feel is an appropriate hide is not necessarily the same as what your royal python feels is an appropriate hide. And how will your snake regulate its temperature if all of the hides are on the same side of the enclosure?

<><Peace

---

I use only belly heat. If you look at the photo you will see tiles on the floor. That is the warm side. When he needs warmth he just goes and sit there. When he does not need warmth, he goes inside his hide or on the side boards. I know that many people provide two hides, one on the cool side and one on the warm side. It,s correct but my enclosure is located on a high place, So when he is on the tiles (the hot side) without a hide, there is no eye contact with him.

I am kind of confused why you keep posting here about this enclosure. You are getting the same advice an responses, and with good reason. For those, who don't want to read through the other thread, I'll provide a TLDR:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Regius_049

As you note, there is evidence that ball pythons do indeed climb a limited amount in a wild setting. Ball pythons have been found in low-lying branches and foliage, but it is not their predominant trait.

To put this in perspective for you and to be complete, even if it were a very arboreal snake like a green tree python or jungle carpet python, 2' in length / width would still be insufficient. I know some people keep them in that, but they really should be in something at least 3' x 2' (L x W) x 2-3' high. Greg Maxwell himself suggests 3' x 2' x 2' caging for green tree pythons and notes 4' long is even better. Most experienced keepers note that additional height is indeed beneficial to these snakes, but floor space is even more so.

To be fair, your enclosure is 23.6" x 31.5" (per your measurements with the "addition") and a 40 gallon breeder is 36" x 18" typically. Thus, your cage has ~744 sq. inches of floor space while the 40 gallon breeder has 648 sq. inches of floor space, so you could argue you are winning out there. Additionally for comparison, an IRIS CB-70 (37 qt tub) is 33.5" x 17.8" or 596 sq. inches of floor space. I have to admit that really, if people are going to critique this guy's enclosure, then we should be critiquing breeders/keepers with snakes in CB-70 (or equivalent) tubs as well. I realize this is perhaps outside the scope of this particular discussion, but I have noticed, in general, people tend to be pretty OK with keeping adult ball pythons in tubs.

---

1. This enclosure is no less appropriate than a smaller tub, unless the core complaint is that the snake will fall an injure itself. However, really it is no different than a snake climbing a short bush in the wild, but still I can see the merit in that argument. If someone is going to say your enclosure is not appropriate from size perspective, then smaller tubs are thus also not appropriate (per above).

2. Your enclosure is however not optimal, and there is no reason not to tilt the cage on its side, aside from the fact it would be a pain to change the front doors. It would be better in every respect for the snake and there is no reason I can see to keep saying your approach is better. No expert, biologist, or keeper would agree your setup is ideal. Even for true arboreal snakes. which a ball python is not, it would be better to tilt it on its side. I've discussed this previously in regards to thermal gradients and how they affect snake thermoregulation and behavior.

3. Can you tell me, logically, why your enclosure configuration is optimal? I understand that when people are told they are wrong, they tend to dig in and hold their ground, because people don't like to be wrong. I get that. However, it is OK to be wrong, it happens to all of us.

4. What are you hoping to gain from your post? Do you want advice on a ledge? Do you want feedback on furniture placement?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Regius_049

I am kind of confused why you keep posting here about this enclosure. You are getting the same advice an responses, and with good reason. For those, who don't want to read through the other thread, I'll provide a TLDR:



1. This enclosure is no less appropriate than a smaller tub, unless the core complaint is that the snake will fall an injure itself. However, really it is no different than a snake climbing a short bush in the wild, but still I can see the merit in that argument. If someone is going to say your enclosure is not appropriate from size perspective, then smaller tubs are thus also not appropriate (per above).

2. Your enclosure is however not optimal, and there is no reason not to tilt the cage on its side, aside from the fact it would be a pain to change the front doors. It would be better in every respect for the snake and there is no reason I can see to keep saying your approach is better. No expert, biologist, or keeper would agree your setup is ideal. Even for true arboreal snakes. which a ball python is not, it would be better to tilt it on its side. I've discussed this previously in regards to thermal gradients and how they affect snake thermoregulation and behavior.

3. Can you tell me, logically, why your enclosure configuration is optimal? I understand that when people are told they are wrong, they tend to dig in and hold their ground, because people don't like to be wrong. I get that. However, it is OK to be wrong, it happens to all of us.

4. What are you hoping to gain from your post? Do you want advice on a ledge? Do you want feedback on furniture placement?

---

I have never claimed that my enclosure is ideal or optimal. But when i posted about it for the first time i got attacked by several members for the space reason which i found to be not logical for the reasons you explaind in point one. And i,m not hoping to gain any information from my post. I was just sharing things with others. I say loud and clear, i built my enclosure like this because i had more height than floor space to offer. If i had more floor space i would have done it differently. But also its not a bad enclosure for the reasons you explained in point one. I would say its an acceptable exceptional set up for a male BP but not to be recommended as a normal set up for ball pythons

Providing heat only in an exposed spot in the cage is a very poor set up. Period. Regardless of the nonsense about arboreal ball pythons because you saw a picture of a snake in a tree, the fact is that the typical advice for a Proper set up includes identical HIDES on both warm and cool sides.

An artificial plant is not a ball python hide.

Having only an exposed warm spot with all hides in cool spots means your snake only has the option of being on the cool side if he feels stressed. Therefor he will end up stressed and cool when he needs heat.

Your snake already fell. Just because he decided to climb more does not mean that it's a great set up and harmless. It means he hasn't got the options that he needs... i.e. real hides in both warm and cool sides.

This is my advice, feel free to ignore it. At least other beginners will see some actual information instead of false made up stuff.

If you had to choose to remain in either an armchair or a bed the rest of your life, I'm pretty sure you would choose the bed. In an armchair, you have one option: Vertical. You can sit upright, you can sit upside down, or maybe you can even curl up in the seat part into a little ball. That's great and all, but if you had a bed, you could choose between a Vertical position OR a Horizontal position. In addition to sitting and curling up, you could also stretch yourself out any which way you wanted to. Plus, you would have much more room to move around. Don't like the left side of the bed (which is too hot once you've been sitting there a while)? Easy! Move to the left side and cool off.

For BP's, I believe the cage you have is an armchair, while a "typical" (proper) cage is a bed. In your cage, the snake can climb as much as it wants - but it's probably a bit like standing in a chair. If you don't want to lay down, you can sit up as straight as you want. But if you want a different position than those, your only option is to stand. Why would you stand? You're already up, you don't have to go up more. You don't even really WANT to go up more, but that's the only way you'd be able to stretch your body.

Not very comfortable to think about is it?

In a bed, you can sit up, and that's as high as you really want to go since you know you could just stretch yourself out horizontally. A Horizontal BP cage (with a branch) is important because a Ball Python has WHATEVER options it wants in terms of making itself comfortable - so it doesn't have to stand on the armchair.


Also, in response to the hides, whoever posted something along the lines of "a hide should not be what YOU feel is good, it should be what your snake feels is a good hide". That's completely right.

If you wake up naked with no clothes in sight, and someone says "hey, you have to go out onto the street", you wouldn't exactly want to, would you? You would feel EXPOSED. Giving plants to the snake in place of a solid array of hide choices is a bit like then being told "but don't worry, I have something for you to wear". Then they proceed to hand you two or three pieces of paper and some tape to fashion yourself clothes out of. They're better, but you would rather have clothes.


I don't care that snakes sometimes like to climb, or that they are SEMI-arboreal. We like to run, but we don't live on treadmills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Providing heat only in an exposed spot in the cage is a very poor set up. Period. Regardless of the nonsense about arboreal ball pythons because you saw a picture of a snake in a tree, the fact is that the typical advice for a Proper set up includes identical HIDES on both warm and cool sides.

An artificial plant is not a ball python hide.

Having only an exposed warm spot with all hides in cool spots means your snake only has the option of being on the cool side if he feels stressed. Therefor he will end up stressed and cool when he needs heat.

Your snake already fell. Just because he decided to climb more does not mean that it's a great set up and harmless. It means he hasn't got the options that he needs... i.e. real hides in both warm and cool sides.

This is my advice, feel free to ignore it. At least other beginners will see some actual information instead of false made up stuff.

---

Yes you are right. I know that. I am watching him now to see how often does he go to the warm side without a hide. I have a hide for the warm side ready for him, i will give it to him

Dutti this is absolutely no lie. Me and some friends were walking home from school one day when we heard a horrendous crashing in a tree. That horrendous crashing was a groundhog falling from about thirty feet up. Now any zoo or any farm boy knows groundhogs live in holes in a field not in nests in a tree.Your exact logic would mean if I had a pet groundhog I would need to make a nest in a tree because I saw it once. I’m sure I’m feeding the troll with this but let’s be honest, That was the whole point of this post and every post I’ve seen you on

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dutti

I have never claimed that my enclosure is ideal or optimal. But when i posted about it for the first time i got attacked by several members for the space reason which i found to be not logical for the reasons you explaind in point one. And i,m not hoping to gain any information from my post. I was just sharing things with others. I say loud and clear, i built my enclosure like this because i had more height than floor space to offer. If i had more floor space i would have done it differently. But also its not a bad enclosure for the reasons you explained in point one. I would say its an acceptable exceptional set up for a male BP but not to be recommended as a normal set up for ball pythons

---

So because YOU didn't have proper space for an animal you are neglecting it by having an enclosure you yourself has said is wrong from your statement above.

Ok, I'm going to ask you a question and I'm not being snarky. I want you to see this a different way.

If you lived in a apartment with a bedroom. Would you put a king bed in the bedroom to sleep or would you use Velcro and sleep against the wall? Would you live in housing where you had to climb one ladder to 4 levels or would you live in a smaller house with one level?

I honestly think it's ridiculous, not trying to make you feel bad when I say that either.

How is your snake getting any belly heat? Looks like tile in the bottom with some aspen sprinkled on it.

What about a tempature gradient? There will be no hot or cold side with this set up, either hot or not. In order to get warm or cool your snake will have to go up or down.

It's just not ideal for a ball python, don't care how much you argue it, it's just not. I just feel bad for the snake himself, because of your ignorance he's not going to thrive, he might survive, but he/she will not be a happy snake. Sorry, just how I see it.

I have not been keeping snakes long but every day, I'm reading and watching videos, wether it be husbandry, morphs etc. Currently keeping 10 ball pythons and they are thriving because I go by what works and not by what doesnt. I just, I dunno, good luck but yeah....


And no, didn't read this entire thing either...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oodaT

I honestly think it's ridiculous, not trying to make you feel bad when I say that either.

How is your snake getting any belly heat? Looks like tile in the bottom with some aspen sprinkled on it.

What about a tempature gradient? There will be no hot or cold side with this set up, either hot or not. In order to get warm or cool your snake will have to go up or down.

It's just not ideal for a ball python, don't care how much you argue it, it's just not. I just feel bad for the snake himself, because of your ignorance he's not going to thrive, he might survive, but he/she will not be a happy snake. Sorry, just how I see it.

I have not been keeping snakes long but every day, I'm reading and watching videos, wether it be husbandry, morphs etc. Currently keeping 10 ball pythons and they are thriving because I go by what works and not by what doesnt. I just, I dunno, good luck but yeah....


And no, didn't read this entire thing either...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

---

No.. The hot side is only the tiles in the bottom not the Aspin. So on the floor he has a hot side and a cool side. So where you see Aspin on the floor its the cool side and where you see tiles its the hot side. So he does not need to go up to run away from heat. The negative thing about it is that i did not provide him yet with a hide on the hot side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

So because YOU didn't have proper space for an animal you are neglecting it by having an enclosure you yourself has said is wrong from your statement above.

---

Read the entire statemant. I did not say it is wrong, i said clearly it is not bad. I said also its not ideal or optimal. As a conclusion i said its an acceptable exceptional enclosure for a male ball python but not to be recommended as a normal enclosure for ball pythons. I find myself having to repeat my statement again although it was clear enough, and you get 5 thanks because you deliberately or not deliberately did not understand it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dutti

Read the entire statemant. I did not say it is wrong, i said clearly it is not bad. I said also its not ideal or optimal. As a conclusion i said its an acceptable exceptional enclosure for a male ball python but not to be recommended as a normal enclosure for ball pythons. I find myself having to repeat my statement again although it was clear enough, and you get 5 thanks because you deliberately or not deliberately did not understand it!

---

Do you understand the meaning of exceptional? If this is not to be recommended as normal enclosure then why put a ball python in it? You yourself are literally saying this is not a good enclosure then you argue with people when they criticize. DUTTI you are not good at trolling these forums,no one thinks it’s funny. Fortunately I’m smart enough to listen to the good keepers around here and disregard absolutely everything you say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DandD

Do you understand the meaning of exceptional? If this is not to be recommended as normal enclosure then why put a ball python in it? You yourself are literally saying this is not a good enclosure then you argue with people when they criticize. DUTTI you are not good at trolling these forums,no one thinks it’s funny. Fortunately I’m smart enough to listen to the good keepers around here and disregard absolutely everything you say.

---

Exceptional means in exceptional cases it can be used. In my case i had more height space to offer than floor space. So in such case for a male ball python it can be used but that does not mean it should be recommended as a normal standard enclosure for ball pythons. Again, its not bad and at the same time not optimal and ideal. Its an acceptable exceptional enclosure for a male ball python. If you go through an examination, the result will come as follows:
1- Very good
2-Good
3-Acceptable or Satisfying
4-Sufficient or enough
5-Failed

If you get a mark from 1 to 4 you will pass that exam. And if you get 5 you will not. So my enclosure in my opinion gets 3. I hope its clear now

[QUOTE=Dutti;2584107]Exceptional means in exceptional cases it can be used. In my case i had more height space to offer than floor space. So in such case for a male ball python it can be used but that does not mean it should be recommended as a normal standard enclosure for ball pythons. Again, its not bad and at the same time not optimal and ideal. Its an acceptable exceptional enclosure for a male ball python. If you go through an examination, the result will come as follows:
1- Very good
2-Good
3-Acceptable or Satisfying
4-Sufficient or enough
5-Failed

If you get a mark from 1 to 4 you will pass that exam. And if you get 5 you will not. So my enclosure in my opinion gets 3. I hope its clear now[/QUOTE
lol u mean acceptable not exceptional and according to everyone else this is not even an acceptable enclosure let alone an exceptional enclosure. Your going with the whole “thrive or survive” sure Your bp will survive but will it thrive. Stop defending bad husbandry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dutti

I have never claimed that my enclosure is ideal or optimal. But when i posted about it for the first time i got attacked by several members for the space reason which i found to be not logical for the reasons you explaind in point one. And i,m not hoping to gain any information from my post. I was just sharing things with others. I say loud and clear, i built my enclosure like this because i had more height than floor space to offer. If i had more floor space i would have done it differently. But also its not a bad enclosure for the reasons you explained in point one. I would say its an acceptable exceptional set up for a male BP but not to be recommended as a normal set up for ball pythons

---

I always love how this one phrase gets thrown around when someone doesn't like to comments they received.
This enclosure is like having children........ just because you can doesn't mean you should.
This also proves that you would rather try to prove people wrong instead of putting your animal first.
You like the attention but don't comprehend the type and why.
No experienced keeper here has said there is one set way to keep your animal because there really isn't.
What works in my house might not work in my neighbors BUT most of us do know what wont work because some or us have tried already.
You are not doing anything new or innovative.
Good luck to your animal........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dutti

I will help you find it..You have posted that article before in the first page of the following thread
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...arboreal-snake

---

Thank you !
Very useful as I was struggling to find it .

I've also seen another detailed account from a Royal python trapper - just can't find that one ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dutti

I say loud and clear, i built my enclosure like this because i had more height than floor space to offer. If i had more floor space i would have done it differently.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

So because YOU didn't have proper space for an animal you are neglecting it by having an enclosure you yourself has said is wrong from your statement above.

---

I agree with Sunnieskys here, you couldn't swing an extra 19" of floor space? Is where you live really that cramped? I find that hard to believe, but like I said earlier, it seems like you really wish to either (1) prove some sort of point, or (2) find the prospect of changing the front doors on the enclosure too much of a pain. I.e. you already had the bare bones of this enclosure and were dead set on not changing it for whatever reason. It's actually almost comical how the dimensions are oriented, as you could have made it 2.62' long and 2' deep (same floor space) and I feel like even that would have been better from a thermal gradient / front door placement perspective. Plus, it would be much easier to reach into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Ok, I'm going to ask you a question and I'm not being snarky. I want you to see this a different way.

If you lived in a apartment with a bedroom. Would you put a king bed in the bedroom to sleep or would you use Velcro and sleep against the wall? Would you live in housing where you had to climb one ladder to 4 levels or would you live in a smaller house with one level?

---

While I like the sentiment, you can't really use this analogy. If the snake wanted to simply use the floor space, it could. His floor space, as I have noted before, is larger than comparable tubs widely used across their forum by breeders and keepers alike, yet they (more or less) escape criticism. If the snake wanted to sleep flat, it could do so, there is adequate space. Obviously I'd like to see more floor space, but I have to be fair. Many breeder tubs are only 6" tall, which is rather short, thus I could say something to the effect of: "would you like to be able to raise your head above a prone position at your leisure?" I am probably skirting anthropomorphism here, but the idea is there.

Also, in regards to your thermal gradient, you note that the "warm spot" is on the tiles, which look too me like they are in the front of the enclosure. If that is indeed the case, you should place them more to one side, so he has a warm spot towards the back of the enclosure. 2.62' deep is fairly deep and warmth towards the back of the enclosure would likely help with a feeling of security. If he is eating regularly though, it may be a non-issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miranda2

I would consider adding two more shelves on the opposite side for a ladder effect, so if he should slip and fall could catch himself as well as adding more usable space.

---

If you are going to insist on using this cage you should really do something like this. Add shelves and clutter, both on the ground and "in the air". The cage is too sparse for security and if you wanted to limit the potential danger of a fall, this would be how. If I were designing an enclosure like this for any species of reptile, I would have far more furniture that shown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zincubus

Thank you !
Very useful as I was struggling to find it .

I've also seen another detailed account from a Royal python trapper - just can't find that one ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

---

You might like the following paper. It was a study conducted on the diets of wild ball pythons via fecal examination and forced regurgitation that found a very high proportion of birds vs mammals in the males' diets. It also noted the presence of squirrels in the diet. The study notes that the males were found climbing most often, but that diets high in arboreal-type prey doesn't necessitate that the predator be arboreal. Interesting paper - not a huge sample size, but most studies of these type aren't and it's not tiny - 38 males, 49 females.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...3M9dHJ1ZUBAQDA=

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zincubus

Thank you !
Very useful as I was struggling to find it .

I've also seen another detailed account from a Royal python trapper - just can't find that one ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

---

Is this the one in question?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...apper-in-Ghana

One has to remember... Some wild animals struggle due to their wild habitat being destroyed. Taken over by humans. Towns, cities being built.

You now have whole packs of coyotes living in and around cities. Foxes and other wild animals, too. Out of necessity. Because their habitat keeps shrinking.

But would you call that their "natural habitat"? Or even, an ideal habitat?

Sure, Ball Pythons cover quite a range of different habitats. In the WILD they are most often found in burrows, termite mounds or tree hollows. Unless they are moving in order to find a new hiding place, a mate or food.

They seem to prefer savannah and flatlands.

If found in "garbage piles" that tells me that this has to be a strongly populated area (city, town) and no, there won't be termite mounds or wild habitat.

Perhaps it all depends on where trappers look for them.

The expedition that studied them for 3 month back in 1997, studied them in their wild habitat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Every one of his threads are exactly the same, yet they continue. I have tried ignore. Is there an ignore thread option? The amount of misinformation he spews is alarming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Every one of his threads are exactly the same, yet they continue. I have tried ignore. Is there an ignore thread option? The amount of misinformation he spews is alarming.

---

No but you can put a member on ignore which has been suggested multiple times in multiple threads.

Simply go to user CP and select Edit User List on your left

Honest question... How do we then remove seeing their titles show up and their quotes in people's replies? I thought ignore hid them entirely but the ignore I found when I added him on it still shows his post titles, quotes when people quote him and shows this which to me doesn't hide him very well.

I ask because he greatly upsets me seeing his posts but ignore does not seem to make him vanish from this forum like I had hoped. How do I ensure for example he never replies in one of my posts? I am not being a smartalex here, I really want to know now that you have brought this up numerous times. How do I completely ignore Dutti?

This is all ignore does it seems which doesn't hide him really. Is there another ignore option I am not seeing?

https://i.imgur.com/H3izCXX.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

No but you can put a member on ignore which has been suggested multiple times in multiple threads.

Simply go to user CP and select Edit User List on your left

---

I have them on ignore. But posted threads still show up. That's why I was asking if there is an ignore thread.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDA

Honest question... How do we then remove seeing their titles show up and their quotes in people's replies? I thought ignore hid them entirely but the ignore I found when I added him on it still shows his post titles, quotes when people quote him and shows this which to me doesn't hide him very well.

I ask because he greatly upsets me seeing his posts but ignore does not seem to make him vanish from this forum like I had hoped. How do I ensure for example he never replies in one of my posts? I am not being a smartalex here, I really want to know now that you have brought this up numerous times. How do I completely ignore Dutti?

This is all ignore does it seems which doesn't hide him really. Is there another ignore option I am not seeing?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/H3izCXX.jpg

---

Exactly this. Thanks. This person causes more strife in this forum.

If you have any questions about ignoring any member you can ask the moderators in private messages, no need to stage a show here:" Hey people, i intend to ignore this particular person"..lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

I have them on ignore. But posted threads still show up. That's why I was asking if there is an ignore thread.

- - - Updated - - -



Exactly this. Thanks. This person causes more strife in this forum.

---

Not everything can disappear obviously if someone quotes someone else this will appear on the forum.

It's really simple and I will address this for the last time and again have the last word here since we are yet again going around in circle.

Put the person on ignore, and then use your will power to ignore quotes, it's that simple and that's what mature people do.

We expect people to act in a civil manner with one another and if you cannot, simply do not post or be ready for consequences if you do and give in into the drama. This is for EVERYONE.

I believe this one has ran it's course and answers were provided so that's all folks.