Help needed - Newbie trying to figure out environment, thawing food

Gang, got Jasper, a Super Pastel Fire, for my son for Christmas. We've had him almost 2 weeks, now. The breeder (Chris at Slowcountry Balls - highly recommend!) fed him last on Friday the 14th. He has yet to eat for me (will elaborate). Took him to the vet for an initial checkup, but also to try to learn some things myself. According to the vet, who seemed quite knowledgeable, I'm actually doing most things right. After talking to her, I moved the CHE from the center to the hot side (do have under tank heating element on that side). But otherwise, she liked my temps, my environment, my night drop, dedicated feeding enclosure, etc.

At any rate, when I first set up the enclosure, I was battling between the perfect temperature range or the perfect humidity range. Couldn't get both. Still a little on the dry side, but now Jasper appears to be going into shed judging by his eyes (note again I'm a newbie, so I'm assuming from reading, rather than experience). I've noticed that every time I try to increase the humidity from either soaking up the spagham moss or misting the substrate (Aspen), the temperature drops. Makes sense, evaporative cooling and all. Well, now that I'm trying to jack up the humidity to over 60%, I put a saturated washcloth over his hot hide per Chris' recommendation. Great for the humidity! But the temperature has dropped even more.

So I'm not sure how to handle this. For now, I have a 10 gallon glass enclosure (I think, it is 20X12X12 inches). Heat tape on the bottom about 1/3rd of it. A 60Watt CHE above. The belly tape is on a thermostat, the CHE is just on a rheostat for now. I have most of the top covered with an insulation panel, there is about a 1/5" gap around the perimeter. So the question that comes to mind on that is am I venting too much air? It appears I have less area than the area from the Sticky thread about setting up a glass enclosure. If I block off more, I'm sure it will help the humidity, but how much is safe before I lose oxygen?

I am working to address this. I've ordered a 2 channel thermostat, and a 40Watt RHP from Reptile Basics, but I think they are slammed from the holidays, as my understanding is that they normally ship very, very quickly, but my prior order with them in early December a couple of weeks. So that will help. I have also been corresponding with Ali at AP Cages, and now that I've learned the divider is movable, and not either in the middle or out entirely, I'm going to order a T8 this week. Hopefully I'll get things all settled soon. But any help I can get until that comes in would be most appreciated. Again I think they only thing I can change right now is the size of the vents.

Right now I have flat black insulated posterboard stuff on the back and sides of the enclosure. I thought that would be good to help it stay warm, and make the space feel cozy, but now I am concerned that he is seeing reflections off of the glass. Any thoughts before I order a "scenery" type of cover to replace it?

On feeding. I think that I have been too cautious about bacteria and overheating. I ordered rat pups. I think I misunderstood Chris and he was feeding him fuzzies, rather than pups, as the guy weighs in at 140grams, so I think the pups are too big. No local stores have rat fuzzies, so I am stuck with medium mice. He has not taken food, yet. The first time, with the rat pup (before I had weighed him), he seemed very interested, kept smelling at it, and reared back as he was going to strike......but ultimately turned away. Second time, a little similar, but not as aggressive. Switched to a mouse. Almost no interest. That said.....I think that a couple of times, my food has been too cold. I had not realized that they sensed with heat (my 8 y/o son educated me on that one!). I have been slowly thawing either via fridge or cold water. Then hot water. I've read they need to be heated up quickly so bacteria do not grow, but they don't need to get too hot. At any rate, I have noticed that while they are warm on the outside, after a few minutes, they get cold, again. So......how do people heat up their food? A few minutes in hot water doesn't warm up them enough, unless when people have said that their water is much hotter, and they have a much larger bowl.

I konw these guys get easily stressed and it isn't unusual for them to not eat initially when they are moved. I'm not entirely worried, yet, but I really want to do everything I can to make it easy on Jasper until I can get that T8 set up. Any and all help appreciated. Can't link a non image link (dang Photobucket!), so here is a link to the picture on FB, https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...8&l=e7ba606869

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...8&l=e7ba606869

I really feel you. Only a few months ago, I went through the exact same problems. I'll tell you all the things I've learned:


Humidity & Heating

1. If you have problems with humidity I might suggest you don't use Aspen. Aspen is a good bedding for ball pythons but it is a horrible humidity killer. From my personal experience I'd like to recommend cypress mulch. It's really great at keeping the humidity at a good level.

2. Maybe move the water bowl to the hot side of terrarium. That will keep the humidity up as well.

3. Problems with the heating due to the humidity are a bit more troublesome. I have a wooden terrarium. So if my terrarium gets colder than it's supposed to (for some reason) I like to put a blanket on the top but that's not a good idea if your vents are on the top. For the time being you can put a hot water bottle on the glass at the hot side (from outside).
Maybe a heat mat will be easier in your case.



Feeding:

Two weeks are almost nothing. You have to give your little worm a bit of time to get used to it's new environment. Maybe he hasn't eaten because he is simply stressed. It can take some time until new ball pythons start eating. Ball pythons also tend to refuse food if they are in shed so don't worry too much.
I personally put the mice/rat in some water (warm to the touch) and let it thaw out for about 20 to 30 minutes. If I don't fell any hard or really cold spots anymore, I take some hot water (like 60 degrees Celsius) and put the rodent in there for about 3 to 5 minutes. After that the rodent is normally warm to the touch. Then I feed my ball python with it.
Is your ball python used to frozen rodents or did he eat live rodents before you got him?
Furthermore there are cases in which the ball pythons are drop eaters. So they only take the food when you leave in there with them for some time. Maybe if the fast continues you can try that.

That's a lot of information to digest at once but the the two things that stick out to me our the dedicated feeding enclosure and using rat pups for a snake the size of yours. I would and many on here are going to recommend feeding in your BPs enclosure. Putting him in a dedicated feeding enclosure can add additional stress as well as possibly increase the risk of regurgitation when picking him up to put him back in his home. As for feeding rat pups, they are too big for your snake. For a 140 gram snake, I would stick to Rat Fuzzys or a small mouse (12-17grams).

Also, make sure you limit any holding of the snake until you have 2-3 successful feedings. You want to reduce any added stress while he/she settles into his new environment. This self control will pay off in the end. Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Night drops are not necessary for ball pythons.

Feed in the enclosure. Ball pythons are stressed easily and feeding outside the enclosure does nothing but possibly induce stress and can cause issues with digestion.

Unless you are in already a humid part of the country, aspen is horrendous for maintaining humidity. I would recommend eventually switching to coconut fiber or cypress mulch but for now allowing the snake to decompress is more important that constantly changing the enclosure. Simple things like changing the type of substrate can induce stress in a new ball python.

10 gallon is going to be a pain to get the temperature gradient adequate for a ball python. You can use it temporarily but if this is a juvenile or infant I would recommend a tub more. the concern about ventilation is not so much that you have to over think it. They do not need high ventilation like some arid species like rosy boas so blocking of up to 80% or more of the screen is perfectly fine.

What are you using to read temps and humidity? Analog dials are horrendous for accuracy so I would recommend getting something digital and an infrared temp gun for reading temps. Temps on hot side must be taken from the inside bottom of the tank above the heating pad, not the substrate. Cold side can be under the cool side hide so long as that area is proper temp, it's good.

For feeding, you feed what the breeder was feeding. Do not try and switch to another food source or size while acclimating the snake. If the breeder fed live, feed live. If mouse hopper, feed mouse hopper, not rat. Find what the breeder was feeding and start with that.

For thawing, place the rodent in a zip loc bag in the refrigerator over night then when day of feeding comes, warm in hot water (110 to 120 degrees F) for 15-20 minutes. A hopper should only take that amount of time to get warm.


Now I gave a ton of tips but you seem to have a good basic grasp on the husbandry, just need some fine tuning.


If you can post a picture here of the enclosure it will also help a ton.


Deborah, our most amazing admin, made a wonderful guide on how to deal with hatchlings. She does recommend aspen to start but in a tub that can handle humidity better. In a glass cage, aspen can make humidity control worse. Look over this guide to get an idea on how to best take care of a new ball python.

Again however it is critical you find out exactly what the breeder fed this snake and match it exactly to start. You can switch up later once it is established eating. I would do that before changing anything else. Also stop the feeding bin, feed in the enclosure with a dry rodent.


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101

First off, welcome to the forum, youve come to a great place to learn. This is a great community of passionate reptile enthusiasts. Learn who the knowledgeable, experienced keepers are and soak up the info they share.

Ok...three things that stood out to me...

1) The seperate feeding tub:

I 100000% advocate for feeding snakes inside their enclosures. I have fed all of my snakes inside their enclosures for years. I have NEVER been tagged by any of my snakes inside their enclosures. I've been tagged, but outside while making handling errors that led to defensive strikes. I have also never had any impaction issues due to substrate.
Transferring the snake stresses the snake, which can lead to refusals. Then, if the snake does eat you need to move it back to the enclosure. This can A) increase the chance of you getting bit because the snake is in "feed mode" and B) potentially cause the snake to regurgitate it's meal due to the stress of being moved. You don't want either.

2) Simply using a higher wattage CHE should help fix your temps/humidity balance.

3) Please unplug your UTH until your thermostat arrives. The UTH can spike to dangerous temps when unregulated and can cause serious burns, or even death, to your snake. The UTH is there simply for a hot spot to aid with digestion and not for ambient temps. So, since your snake hasn't eaten, he won't miss it. It's just not worth the risk unregulated, even if the snake was eating.

Hope I helped...
Good luck, we're here to help with any questions you may have.

I can give some advice on some of the food questions, and everyone has their own ritual of heating up their food for their beeps.

This is how I approach feeding Coco:

I take the F/T from the freezer, put it in a plastic bag, and run / soak it under tap water that's around 105 F (I measure temp with a temp gun, it's worth purchasing if you don't have one yet ;)). This thaws it out within 10-15 minutes. I'll feel the rat pups head and belly through the plastic bag since those take longer to warm up. When the head and belly warm to the touch, I take the rat pup into the room where Coco is. Then I'll take a hair dryer, on low, and heat the head of the rat for about 10 seconds, and so it's the hottest part of the food.

Coco recognizes when my steps to feed her. And she is conditioned to feeding, so when I tap her tub twice, she pops out of her hide (if she's hiding) and she'll snatch the rat pup immediately. If you try this method, make sure the water isn't above 115f-ish...any hotter and you risk the food item thawing so fast gas will build up in the belly...and when the snake takes the food...the belly can pop :( it also confuses the snake as where it needs to strike. Coco struck at the belly instead of the head since it was the hottest area....causing the belly to pop and Coco to go "OMG, what is this", with a mouth full of intestine :puke2:Haha I had to warm up another rat pup, did it with lower water temps and she struck the head and gulped it down.

You can also thaw in a fridge and run under hot water, or thaw near the cage for a few hours to make it like thanksgiving day with the rat's scent filling the snake's home. Other's here will also have insight and tips for ya. Sorry I can't be more help on the environment :(.

Thanks for all of the feedback. A few things:

1. I do have a thermostat on the UTH. It is a single channel, so I can't control the above tank heater. Have a member who has agreed to purchase it, and let me wait until the new one arrives, so I will never have that UTH on without it.
2. I've read pros/cons on in and out of enclosure. Jasper has already struck at us a couple of times, including at the vet. So that seems to reinforce the notion of a dedicated feeding enclosure. Ultimately, though, my vet recommends it (and FWIW, our "non-exotic" vet recommended this practice, and the practice has a snake specialist, who is who I went to). Her primary reasoning is to alleviate the risk of ingesting substrate.
3. Big thing I think I need to do is change the substrate. Ordered teh Aspen when I ordered by thermostat, scale, and other stuff a while back, since the most common stuff in pet stores here is cedar (the big no-no, IIRC). Vet recommended I think it was Eco Earth, which is coconut, so I'll run out and see if I can find some.
4. Chris did convert him to F/T food, so I'm not dealing with that, too.

There are a few consistencies I have read both on here, and between Care Sheets from different sources. One is that there are widely divergent opinions on how to care for these guys!!! (e.g. where to feed, when to start handling, night drops). The other is that each BP is different. At any rate, I mention the points above to hopefully alleviate any fears folks might have had this this was an impulse Christmas purchase. He started asking in August, so we've been looking and researching since then. Had hoped to make "rubber meeting the road" a little easier than it has been, but I'm also pretty Type-A, so I may be fretting unnecessarily.

The one thing that has me a little concerned about the food thing is that he DID seem interested in it when we tried to feed him the first time. Sniffed a LOT. Got coiled up looking like he was going to strike at it. But like I had said (or think I did?), it was a rat pup, rather than a fuzzy, so when I realized it was too big and bought smaller prey, I had thought that might have been why he refused.

If you are worried about ingesting substrate put a paper towel down during feeding. Your vet might be an exotic specialist but I doubt they know ball pythons. I have the most amazing reptile vet but he doesn't know green tree pythons. There is zero benefit from external enclosure feeding and if you look throughout this forum I would bet you find it that everyone feeds in enclosure for ball pythons specifically. I highly doubt anyone not a troll would suggest here feeding in a separate tub for ball pythons. the choice is ultimately up to you but on this forum alone there are thousands of ball pythons feeding in enclosures without issue and I think that speaks for itself.

I can vouch for feeding in the enclosure, with loose substrate to boot.

Cage aggression is also a myth; they don't associate their enclosure with feeding. The attempts at striking are probably because the snake is trying to defend itself -- beyond eating, striking is a means to deter predators. Once they settle in and have eaten a few times, you can try short, frequent sessions to get your BP used to handling. They'll hopefully mellow out with time.

Ok, wasn't aware of the Tstat. All set there.

I mean NO disrespect to the vet, however, the vast majority of vets, even exotics specialists, know what they've read in books. Most are not actual keepers and have no hands on experience.
There is absolutely ZERO benefit to feeding in a separate enclosure. Substrate ingestion is a very minor concern. Nobody cleans their food in the wild and they are made to digest fur and bone. If you're concerned about substrate ingestion, lay a piece of cardboard down inside the enclosure a few hours before scheduled feeding.

Please know I'm not trying to be argumentative, just sharing my experience, as well as that of others with decades of experience with thousands of snakes.

It sounds to me like you are doing everything right EXCEPT:
1)need a slightly bigger enclosure to create a heat gradient.
2)you need to use eco-earth coco substrate or similar, misted occasionally to keep humidity up.
3)and last, but perhaps most important, you NEED to heat the thawed rodent up to 100 degrees with a hairdryer right before feeding! I found feeding thawed rats, and them being refused to be a huge pain and til I started using the hairdryer method.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for all the feedback! Can't get that T8 here fast enough. Just let the guy soak for a bit while I got rid of the aspen and put in the Eco Earth stuff, though his eyes look darker now than they did, so who knows. Snagged a 100W IR bulb to try, as well. WIll see how that goes.

Funny thing is, I never would have considered feeding in a separate enclosure, but I read about doing so here. Vet is their in house "snake" expert, rather than just reptile, and she seemed very knowledgeable about BP's, but I can try in the main enclosure. I imagine the finer substrate is probably less risky if ingested (and it isn't like they are eating on glass in the wild!). The striking thing is more of a concern because of the age of my son (8) than it would be if I were going to be the only caretaker.

Hair dryer! That sounds like a great idea, surprised I haven't stumbled across it here before. Will definitely try that at the end of the week when I try again.

I have tried both and feeding in their regular house seems way easier and more natural.
The vet is concerned about substrate swallowing is all. Other than that there is zero advantage to taking them out to feed. Even more negative actually.
I know it isn’t an ideal situation to have your snake eat substrate, but I risk it.
Tonight... cypress mulch down the hatch... o well.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...32893c8bf4.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Godzilla78

I have tried both and feeding in their regular house seems way easier and more natural.
The vet is concerned about substrate swallowing is all. Other than that there is zero advantage to taking them out to feed. Even more negative actually.
I know it isn’t an ideal situation to have your snake eat substrate, but I risk it.
Tonight... cypress mulch down the hatch... o well.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...32893c8bf4.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Hi


Have you considered putting a piece of card down over the chippings just to minimise the chance of ingesting some ?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zincubus

Hi


Have you considered putting a piece of card down over the chippings just to minimise the chance of ingesting some ?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

---

I haven’t really thought about it much, but I might try it next time. It’s really not pleasant to watch them get wood in their mouth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've decided to pop in because I too start my new hatchlings in a 10 gallon aquarium. It took some refining and it requires some diligence to maintain heat and humidity but it is doable.

I did most of my heat/humidity calibration before brining my snake home to avoid him having to live with my trial and error shenanigans.

I have 3 sides covered with foam board like you do. I'm using an UTH with the thermostat, and currently a 60 watt IR heat bulb also on a t-stat. My top is entirely covered with an acrylic sheet with a quarter inch clearance around the lamp dome. I live in a rather arid region so humidity was probably my biggest issue. Switching to a coco substrate helped a lot. When it is not winter and the heat is not blasting I can get away with misting every 3-5 days. Now that the heat is on I mist every other day and everyday when in shed.

As for your temps, where are you taking them. If you are using wall gadges you'll get ambient air temps and if you are trying to push those up your surface temps could get too hot especially under the lamp. I use my thermometers to give me an idea of where I'm at and use my my handheld IR thermometer to verify. You will lose heat when you open the cage for feeding and handling and misting. At long as the snake has his hot hide with UTH he has some place to retreat to.

I'm also going to recommend feeding him in his cage. If you are getting nipped it is likely defensive and not a feeding response. Baby ball pythons can be very nippy. This should improve with time and proper handling, but get him eating before you do more handling.

To thaw I place my rodents in a bag and float in warm water. It usually takes 30-40 min for something of rat pup size and I'll flip it over half way. Once thawed I'll hold the rats up to the heat lamp to warm the heads then feed. If my snake is being a bit slow to peek his head out I can hold the rat under the lamp again to maintain an attractive heat signature. If that doesn't work I leave the feeder in the cage, turn down the room lights and walk away. If he isn't working at it after 30-45 min I count it as a refusal.

As for your feeder size, I got my pied female at 114 grams and the breeder had been feeding her rat pups, and that is what I fed her, she is a voracious feeder though. They are capable of taking them down fine at that size, but sometimes a nervous feeder may do better on something smaller until they get used to the goings on of their new life.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Thanks for all insight. The coconut substrate has made a HUGE improvement on the humidity - of course, ironically, I'm now seeing that the form of substrate I bought has the highest concern for substrate ingestion during feeding. So I'll probably order Reptichips when I start running low on the Eco Earth stuff. I actually ordered all of my "stuff" a few weeks ahead of time to try to give me as much ttime to let things equalize as I could. But there were a few hiccups. Ordered everything on December 1st. It didn't get here until the 15th. Got things set up that weekend, and Jasper arrived 2 days later on the 19th. I had to keep him hidden in my closet to keep my son from finding him, so his terrarium got moved after I thought things were settled - my son's room is colder than my closet. Now, things are a whole lot colder than they were a few weeks ago, meaning more heat use is pushing down humidity.

At any rate, I have my thermostat taped directly to my heat tape on the bottom of the terrarium (I have a piece of foam insulation foil side up on the bottom, with an indention for it). The hot side probe is just underneath the substrate on top of the UTH and below the heat lamp. Cold side is attached to the wall, as I bought the wrong thermostat for that. I have inferred that that temp is lower than a surface temp.

Alright, so I haven't been sure of whether Jasper was about to shed or what. Thought the eyes clouded over, then they cleared. And seemed nothing happened for a while. He's just been hanging out in one of his hides and not moving much at all. Picked up a hide yesterday to check and see if there were any signs of snedding or whatever. Couldn't see any.

So I get back from the morning's activities and go to check on him, see if he is still in the cold side hide as usual lately. And lo and behold, there is a skin just blocking my view. Picked up the hide, and he managed to completely shed, a single skin with no signs of breaks or pieces, while balled up in the hide. And this isn't a big hide, he balls up and fills probably 2/3rds of it.

So I remove him so I can clear the shed and look over him for signs of loose skin still attached or anything.....not much. But he is a lot more active. Definitely checking out the surroundings, smelling a lot, etc. Seemed much easier to handle. He did go back in his hide after moving around for a bit. But his demeanor is much less shy. Will plan to try to feed him again, tomorrow. I have a good feeling about it.

Anyone else ever have their BP manage to shed completely while in its hide?

Yes, it’s completely normal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, I *think* we are making progress. Sorted through my rat pups until I found a 20g one. Heated, got good and warm, hit wiht hair dryer. Had around his cage, didn't come out of his hide. When I removed the hide, he slowly was interested, adn then just struck at it before I could move it over where I wanted to. At any rate, he took it, and was wrapped around it for a good 2 minutes. Then just kind of guarded it for a few minutes. I eventually walked away (lights were all out, was seeing by red light). Came back a few minutes later, and he was trying to eat it from the middle. A few minutes later and he had moved to one end of it. He keeps moving it around, which just seems to make the substrate problem worse. I've seen him try to get his jaws around it three times, but he keeps backing off. It is not bigger than he is, but it is on the bigger end of the range to feed (he's 140g, so about 15%).

Should I move it and try to clean it, and put it on a card so it'll be clean?

Do they ever strike, try to eat, then give up? If so, should I try a new one tomorrow, or wait another week?

Seems like everyone is pointing you in the right direction for feeding and heating, so I'll add my bit for humidity.
My snake was in a glass aquarium (40 gal) for over a year before I made the switch to a AP T11 cage. I ended up doing two things:

1. I keep damp sphagnum moss on both sides of the enclosure (during shed and in winder I usually have one in each corner). I put the moss in these small plastic containers that my snake can't tip. The plastic keeps the wet moss from sitting in his bedding and causing mildew. They are similar to these from amazon "Melamine Plastic White Soy Sauce Dish - Pack of 10"

2. When in shed or when I'm really having a hard time with humidity (like right now - my apt's ambient in 26%) I give him a moist hide. I use a large Terra Cotta pot that I have drilled the drainage hole in the bottom to be wide enough for him to fit, then sanded all the sharp edges off. I soak it in warm water for about an hour. It absorbs a ton of water and releases it as it dries out. Soaking it and the moss in warm water (about 85*F) helps bump the temp up and prevent too much cooling.

I set the pot up side down with the new larger hole facing up and the pot rim sitting in a slightly larger terra cotta drip pan. then shove some damp moss in that too. The drip pan also prevents the bedding from getting wet.

3. I use cypress mulch for bedding as it is mildew resistant and helps with humidity

Below is a pic of his old pot from when he was about 800 grams - It is an 8 inch pot. It looks a bit jagged but that is just uneven coloring from when I drilled it out

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...2700_thumb.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...2701_thumb.jpg[/IMG]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 67King

Well, I *think* we are making progress. Sorted through my rat pups until I found a 20g one. Heated, got good and warm, hit wiht hair dryer. Had around his cage, didn't come out of his hide. When I removed the hide, he slowly was interested, adn then just struck at it before I could move it over where I wanted to. At any rate, he took it, and was wrapped around it for a good 2 minutes. Then just kind of guarded it for a few minutes. I eventually walked away (lights were all out, was seeing by red light). Came back a few minutes later, and he was trying to eat it from the middle. A few minutes later and he had moved to one end of it. He keeps moving it around, which just seems to make the substrate problem worse. I've seen him try to get his jaws around it three times, but he keeps backing off. It is not bigger than he is, but it is on the bigger end of the range to feed (he's 140g, so about 15%).

Should I move it and try to clean it, and put it on a card so it'll be clean?

Do they ever strike, try to eat, then give up? If so, should I try a new one tomorrow, or wait another week?

---

As long as he is still working on it in some fashion let him be. If he full on abandons it then try next week. Babies can be awkward feeders and in my expirance the more you fiddle around with the rat after the strike they more likely they are to leave it. If the rat isn't soggy only a minimal amount of substrate should stick and a little eco earth isn't going to be an issue. I also would dangle the rat in front to the hide opening rather than remove the hide. Generally BPs like to strike from the hide and feel more secure feeding in secret.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk