Can they be this smart??

OK I have been watching this for the last month and I am now convinced that my BP can tell the sounds I make before I feed him.

He is in a AP cage which I have sitting on four cinder blocks so I have storage underneath.
I keep his small sterlite I use to keep him in for trips to the vet, cage cleaning etc. When not being used I keep the blow dryer, tongs and recordkeeping book in there. I also in a seperate container keep cleaning supplies underneath.
I can reach underneath and grab the bucket of supplies and he wont stir. But let me reach underneath and grab the box and within seconds he is out of his hide and in strike mode waiting for his food.

It' s like he knows the slight different noise they make.

Does anyone else notice things in their bp's that make you think they are smarted then we think ?

Yup. I guess its the low level noise you make by dragging the box across the floor before you pick it up. its possible and you say its happening ,so yes

Yes. My BPs are like that especially the one I've had since he was tiny. Even when my husband is holding Byron (and he handles him quite a lot too), Byron will stretch out towards me. He also comes up and "kisses" me on the lips or nose with his tongue. He also rubs his head against my cheek (sweet). My other BP, whom I've only had for three weeks (he's a rescue and was neglected by previous owners - at least they gave him to a rescue centre and I adopted him) is a little shyer but is now beginning to relax with me. He sat draped on my shoulders watching TV for quite some time earlier tonight.


As for hearing. The "experts" say snakes are deaf and can only feel vibration due to the fact that they don't have eardrums etc. Well, none of us have been inside a snakes head so we can't know what they can hear or even how they hear, be it sound (hearing like we do) or vibration. If it's vibration, then that is a form of hearing too. I'm sure they can differentiate between different sounds or vibrations. When it's feeding time on a Sunday I heat up the rodents in the kitchen with a hairdryer. Last Sunday was a really good example. I remarked to my husband that the snakes were in their hides. I went into the kitchen and started heating up the rodents. For some reason I stopped what I was doing and went back into the living room. Where the BPs viv is would be about 12 yards from the kitchen. I glanced at their viv and both were out of the hide ready and waiting for their meal. Now they could have smelt the rodents but on the other hand they may have "heard" the hairdryer. As an experiment, I'll switch the hairdryer on without warming the rodents and see what they do on Sunday. You've got me thinking now.

A few weeks ago, my two Boas were in their hide with their heads poking out (their viv is also in the living room). It wasn't feeding day. One of my cats knocked his feeding bowl off the shelf in the kitchen (the bowl's made of stainless steel). I was watching the Boas at the time. Two heads turned simultaneously towards the kitchen!

Another thing that intrigues me is, if snakes are deaf and can hear no sound, then, apart from a defence mechanism, why do they hiss to warn off unwanted attention? What would be the point of hissing if you can't hear yourself hiss to warn off predators?

I think overall we know very little about snakes. What they hear, what they think etc. The vast majority of people abhor snakes so it's easy to write them off as being deaf, unintelligent animals. It makes it easier to say "Ugh. Disgusting, slimy, horrible creatures. I wouldn't go near one of them". Show that a snake has intelligence, can hear and can be affectionate (in their own way), then you have a different ball-game and everything nasty that's been instilled in most people suddenly gets turned on it's head - and that wouldn't suit the various groups who think that snakes shouldn't be kept as pets.

My snakes are friendly, affectionate in their own way and equally will let me know when they don't want to be handled or disturbed just like my cats do. When my cats don't want to be petted or stroked, they jump down or disappear out the cat flap. I also know when not to disturb the snakes, usually at shedding time - I keep a close watch on them without disturbing them - like to make sure they're OK. I don't disturb them either for 2-3 days after they've fed. I wouldn't like it if someone picked me up after I'd had a big meal so I afford the snakes the same courtesy.

Whether snakes can hear or not, whether they're intelligent or not, whether they have affection for their owners or not, they absolutely fascinate me and I love them to bits.

I don't know if it's the vibration or the noise of the things in the box.
The floor is carpeted with thick carpet and pad so it really makes no noise when being pulled out from under the cage.

Hey let me know if this week when you just turn on the hairdryer with no rodent out if they respond.

I think they are a whole lot smarter than we think. And I do think they have a bigger memory than given credit for.

i know my BP's are very smart. when i walk into mu room with a paper bag(what i carry the rodents in) it doesnt matter who is being fed, as soon as they see the bag they come out in striking position. and my male zulu who is in the cage with the sliding glass front always, always, always pushes up against the glass and pushes it to where it would open. luckily it doesnt because he cant get any traction on the glass.

Snakes can associate cruelty with humans:(


My daugher's ex-boyfriend rescued a rat snake some years ago that had been cruelly treated by his owner who hadn't a clue how to treat anything with respect:mad:

Every time anyone came into the room where the snake was, it would flee to the back of it's viv as far away from humans as possible. Ewan said it was completely terrified. If he didn't leave the room where it was, it would strike the glass with such force, it used to hurt it's nose. He had to call in expert help to help the snake and it ended up in a small zoo which has a reptile house with a more natural environment. The last we heard it was doing fine - away from any human contact.

We don't know how intelligent animals are or what they are capable of. Watched a programme earlier this year (think it was on Animal Planet) where a Lynx (I think it was a Lynx) was successfully tamed and is now some Ambassador for the wildlife park where it lives. Her keeper flew in the face of the "experts" who said the Lynx could never be tamed. She believed it could, and by spending most of her time with the Lynx, showing the Lynx kindness, love and giving her lots of attention, she succeeded. It was thought the Lynx didn't have the brain-power to learn to adapt to that kind of life. This Lynx will walk on a lead and is as affectionate as a domestic cat.

Another thing that I think is that most of the reptile books, written by "experts" were mostly first published over 10 years ago. While there's still a lot of good, valid information in them (and I'm specifically referring to the one everyone seems to rave about - and without naming it, you probably know which book I'm referring to;) ) a lot of the information in it IMHO is outdated now, the reason being, when it was written most snakes were wild-caught. Now many (and over here nearly all) BPs are captive bred and have been for a long time, so often the first thing they see when they hatch are their siblings and us humans. In other words, they're becoming domesticated.

I could be wrong in saying this (and I will stand corrected if I am) but I go on quite a few reptile forums and by what I've read, the people who seem to have most problems with their BPs are the ones who do not handle their BPs on a regular basis. By saying that, anyone who gets a BP should give the snake time to settle into their new surroundings and establish a good feeding routine first before moving on to handling, starting handling for very short periods and build up gradually. Patience is needed. The same goes for any animal. Even kittens need time to adjust to a new home and will often disappear into the darkest, most inaccessible spot (for humans to get them out) for days until they build their confidence and become familiar with their new surroundings.

On another forum a few weeks ago someone wrote in and said they couldn't go near their BP as it would hiss and strike, tagging it's owner several times (defensive). He went on to say he only went near the snake for about 5 minutes once a month to change it's substrate and for about a minute once a week to throw a rat in it's viv. And he wondered why the snake was scared of him and defensive:rolleyes: I wrote back to that thread and said I believed it was because he wasn't handling the snake enough. I got slated for saying that by the so-called "experts" on the site. Incidentally, that site is now closed down.

I handle my BPs regularly. Byron especially will let me know he wants to come out. If I ignore him, he climbs onto the viv lock and shows off. I can never ignore him when he does that. If I did, I do believe he'd go off and sulk LOL.

With gentle, regular handling Bobby my rescue is coming on really well too and is relaxing more when I handle him now.

I believe they are far from domestication. That is a process that takes hundreds of years, since you have thousands of years of instict to overcome. I agree with you tho that with handling you can make them used to you, and I'm glad to hear Bobby is doing so well with you! :D

wow, a domesticated BP... man would that be a site to see. good words lady python.

Tigerlily. One of the most common domesticated animal is the cat and has been for thousands of years yet they still retain their "wild instincts" - I know I have 11 cats who delight in reminding me that they are still wild animals at heart by bringing me prezzies of mice and rats (and once Topsy let a LIVE rat loose in my living room. That was fun trying to get it out - I swear the cats were smirking LOL). Snakes will never become domesticated in the way cats and dogs are, but then how do we define domesticity. Just as there are wild cats and domestic cats (same goes for dogs) yet turn a domestic cat out to fend for itself and it quickly reverts back to instinct to survive. Snakes in that respect are no different - they have the same instinct to survive. Do we class snakes that live with us in our houses as domestic pets and those that live in the wild, wild? I think some species of snake will eventually become classed as domestic pets (Cornsnakes are, in many places, being more or less classed as domestic due to their friendly, outgoing natures already). BPs may well follow for the same reason, plus they don't grow too large. Boas, another very friendly snake. I class my snakes as part of my family because they are part of my family but we should never, ever forget to treat them with the respect they deserve. Aaahhh! My snakes have got me coiled round their tails:D

I do not know, as no one knows, actually how smart a snake can become given enough contact with a "humanized" environment. I think personally they have amazing survival skills and that drive to survive, can push them to react in ways they might not have to in the wild. I know from my limited time with our ball pythons that given a pretty much identical set of circumstances, Rionach and Kyna will react quite differently. Why they do this is a mystery to me, however, I quite enjoy the mysteries that come with snake keeping.

For instance, the routine a person has when feeding their snake may well cause a reaction in the snake. Nature means for them to react to their wild prey in certain ways, since they are in captivity and that prey is acting differently (being presented dead on hemostats say) it makes complete sense they would soon learn the routine of that prey and react accordingly. Whether that is true memory or just an automatic adjustment/reaction to the establish routin of their lives, who knows.

I've said it before in another thread...I hope snakes never become "domesticated" per se. I love the feeling that these creatures which carry so much of the wild in them, share our family life. I feel wonderful that they in their way "allow" me contact with them. If I have to move them to clean or something and it is obviously stressing them, it's over as fast as I can do it.

For us, the snakes call all the shots basically when it comes to that interaction, their needs and wellbeing being paramount always over our human need to touch or hold them. So far we're loving having them and they seem to be thriving so it's all good.:)


~~Jo~~

I think what you are missing is the scientific difference between a domesticated animal and a wild animal that has been tamed. Dogs, horses, and cows are all scientifically considered domesticated animals. Camels, elephants, and Lama are all wild animals that in parts of the world have been tamed and used as work animals by humans.

Biologists assign certain traits to domesticated animals, first and foremost is their diet. Domesticated animals are all herbivores or at least omnivores. A quick peek at the contents of any dog food will have you asking "where's the beef?". Ease of breeding is also generally required for an animal to become domesticated. While snakes are seemingly bred with great ease, the fact that their breeding has to be induced makes them a poor candidate for domestication. Other factors such as time to sexual maturity, social structure, panic response, and general disposition make snakes probably one of the least likely species of animal to become domesticated at any point.

Can a wild or captive bred snake be tamed and make a great pet? Absolutely! ... The same way people keep bears, elephants, cougars, and other exotics with great success. But taming is a far cry from domestication.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lady Python

(Cornsnakes are, in many places, being more or less classed as domestic due to their friendly, outgoing natures already).

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Can you please clarify this statement? ... Who is performing this classification? I try and stay pretty up to date on most of the current research being done in the herpetological field (especially relating to snakes) and I've never heard of any such project. I'm thinking that you mean that many people are mistakenly falling under the opinion that cornsnakes are domestic??

Oh, and FWIW, you'd be hard pressed to find a biologist that would consider cats a domesticated animal. They lack the ability to socially blend into a domesticated environment and within a single generation can produce feral offspring that cannot be kept domestically. The idea that cats are actually domesticated is really a misnomer scientifically speaking.

Hope this helps.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Camels, elephants, and Lama are all wild animals that in parts of the world have been tamed and used as work animals by humans.

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i know camels are not wild atleast not dromedarys(i saw that on the Crocodile Hunter so i dont know if its completly true), and why would a scientist call a domestic cat wild if there scientific name is
Felis Domesticus?... DOMESTICUS!!! im not trying to be rude but that is what i think. if im wrong please explain. i dont want to start an argument, please.

Adam. I read that statement on one of the forums a couple of months back. I believe it was one of the herp associations here in the UK somewhere, but I can't remember which one. I'll try and find out for you and let you know which one it was.


My personal point of view is that all domestic animals can revert back to being wild. Dogs that are thrown out by heartless owners revert back to being what they are - pack animals. We had a pack of stray dogs roaming here last year which were causing a lot of problems. Just like my rescue snake, they were probably unwanted Christmas presents. The local Dog Warden had a difficult job rounding them up. They'd reverted to being wild and untrusting of humans (who could blame them though). Domestic cats are just the same. I've been with the Cats Protection League for over 20 years and seen cats thrown out to fend for themselves become feral in a very short space of time, reproducing totally wild offspring which will shred your hands even at 4 or 5 weeks old. Like a wild caught snake which can be tamed with patient handling, so can a feral kitten or cat be tamed. Takes a lot of patience (and often a lot of Elastoplast LOL) but it can be done. I know, I've done it and so have many in the CPL.

Domestic as opposed to tame. The way I think (and I'm only talking about me here) is that an animal that lives in a house alongside humans is a domestic animal. A tame animal can be a squirrel that lives in the trees outside my house but will come and take nuts from my hand. It is tame, but not domestic.

Experts. Now experts have so many times, in many things been proved completely wrong. For example, for generations scientists, marine-biologists etc. thought that the Great White Shark was a solitary creature. With the ability to tag these animals with electronic transmitters, they've now found that far from being solitary animals, these sharks work as a team and have a very sophisticated communication system, so the theories that these experts have so long held, that they are 100% correct, that they can't be wrong has been turned upside down on its head.

I remain open minded but observe and learn my snakes. Snakes are becoming more and more popular as pets and as time goes on we will learn more and more about them and I do believe we might end up being quite surprised at them.

Whatever happens, I feel priviledged to be able to share my life and home with my snakes and hope in their own special way they feel the same. They are wonderful, beautiful, gentle fascinating animals that for too long have been badly maligned.

Well when it comes to cats I surely have to agree with you on that one Adam. I've seen my own two cats over the long years I had them go from typical lazy butt house cats that never knew a moment of hunger go into hunt & kill mode (with a little light torture mixed in just for fun)in a flat second. No mouse ever survived in our house. These cats had no need to hunt for hunger, it was purely instinct and that's just never been bred out of most of your typical house cats.

The cats that live in our forest are examples. Mom was obviously a pet prior to last summer. In the space of this year she's gone basically feral, had a least 2 litters of kittens that were born wild and will allow no human approach at all, even more skittish then momma cat has become.



~~Jo~~

I consider my bps wild. Seeing as how they are only one step removed from the wild, since both are CH. I think it's just in the nature of a bp to be docile and nonaggressive - for the most part. I figure when I can feed my snakes out of my hand, then it's no longer wild. I don't feel either of my snakes enjoy playing with me, but do tolerate my handling. This is just my opinion and it seems even the experts disagree with the whole domestication issue, so this issue is definitely not clear cut.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lady Python

Dogs that are thrown out by heartless owners revert back to being what they are - pack animals.

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Dogs are actually still pack animals when living inside a human home, the family they live with becomes their "pack". When thrown out, they exhibit the same behavior that they do inside the house, just with other dogs. Domestication doesn't break instinct. Wolves on the other hand live in packs in the wild, but if you were to bring one into a human home as an adult it would it would likely almost immediately attack every single person living in that household.

Don't mistake a domesticated animal surviving without human assistance as becoming un-domesticated. There are definite well defined lines of behavior between domesticated and wild animals. Their environment certainly has some influence, but in the end, domesticated animals have traits that their wild counter parts will never have.

Like it or not, ball pythons are non-social animals, domestication isn't really something that is possible for them at any point.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr~python

i know camels are not wild atleast not dromedarys(i saw that on the Crocodile Hunter so i dont know if its completly true), and why would a scientist call a domestic cat wild if there scientific name is
Felis Domesticus?... DOMESTICUS!!! im not trying to be rude but that is what i think. if im wrong please explain. i dont want to start an argument, please.

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Camels are not classified as "domestic" by any veterinary, biological, or zoological association that I could find.

As far as cats and their latin name, please don't confuse a name given to an animal 100+ years ago to the advances in the understanding of animal social behavior and evolution made in the last 50 years.

As Lady Python pointed out, science is constantly evolving ... my point of reference for the purpose of this discussion is what we understand today ... not yesterday and certainly not tomorrow.

-adam

Yes Adam, dogs are pack animals and do see their human family as a pack. Every time we take our German Shepherd out, and she's off the lead, she will "round us up". I sent Ian (my son) off to hide and took Sadie away from him. We only got about 100 yards further on when she did her "round up" bit, saw Ian was missing, went and found him and "herded" him back to me. She's a really good dog and very protective of us and also our house - as would-be burglars found out one night a couple of years ago. She saw them off. They obviously didn't know there was a burglar alarm with teeth behind the door:rofl:



Mr~Python. Don't worry, I don't think any of us would argue about our different ways of thinking. Good natured debate/discussion is very informative and the different points of view put across from everyone is very interesting.

Despite our different points of view, we all have one thing in common - and that is a love of snakes:D

BTW one of our hatchling Cornsnakes (Charcoal Charlie) has just shed in the last half hour. He's a baby Anery and is looking beautiful. Will post pics of them later. Err, make that two baby Cornsnakes. Jet has just shed in the last few minutes - shed is still soft:cool:

I'm convinced our BPs love us. Otherwise, why are they always smiling at us. (I now it's the shape of their mouths but they always give the impression that they're smiling LOL).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

.

As far as cats and their latin name, please don't confuse a name given to an animal 100+ years ago to the advances in the understanding of animal social behavior and evolution made in the last 50 years.

As Lady Python pointed out, science is constantly evolving ... my point of reference for the purpose of this discussion is what we understand today ... not yesterday and certainly not tomorrow.

-adam

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i dont believe in evolution but i do believe in morphation and creation

thanks for correcting me on the camels, i wasnt sure about that cuz i saw it on croc hunter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr~python

i dont believe in evolution but i do believe in morphation and creation

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I didn't say anything about evolution as in evolution of a species? I don't see how anyone could not belive in a persons or communities ideas or understandings evolving over time ... that's called learning. ;)

-adam

LOL. I'm nearly 50 and I'm still learning;)

:eek: Shoot I was supposed to be learning?!?!?! :stupidme:

oh i see what you were saying... lol thought you talkin about evolution as in a lizzard loosing its legs a bajillion years ago because it started to become subterranial and turned into a snake. im only a kid:rolleyes: you know.

I guess I'm lucky coz I'll always be a kid (coz that's my name LOL).

what is this word...LLlllleaarrrnnniinnngg??:confused: ;)

Something we never stop doing;)

lol, they just make me learn cuz im a kid:stupidme: