New ball python over a year old and only 166 grams!

I just picked up a couple ball pythons from Morphmarket from a big breeder who has sold over 1,000 snakes on that site. The pair was supposed to be over a year old and I didn't think the weights were accurate. Just unboxed them today and sure enough the male is only 166 grams!! I have hatchlings that are only two months old that weigh twice that. I'm guessing that they just didn't feed them or maybe a rat pup once a month? I was pretty shocked to see how light they were, it was like opening up an empty box, I thought maybe they forgot to put the snakes in there LOL.

I feed pretty heavy, at one year old most of my snakes are up to about 800 grams and usually at least 1200 grams after two years. I've had one snake this light (a normal that I got for free) and with heavy feeding she grew like a rocket and made up for it in no time so I'm not that worried about it, just thought I'd share my experience with this big breeder... (not going to mention any names).

That's a tiny little yearling! And I thought Tyson was small since he's a year old and still a hair under 600 grams....

Lots of reasons for a smaller size baby, as long as the body structure is good, should grow to a normal size.
Maybe it was a slow starter, maybe only took live, maybe never got switched to rats.

My first BP was under 30 grams when i got her, super picky eater, took forever to get established. Was barely 23 grams after she took her first meal with me. I don't weight my snakes much back then but I'd guess she was well under 200 grams by the time she was a year. Doing great now though.

Current yearlings I've been raising up and feeding every 7-10 days are in the 300-400 gram range.

I'm amazed by all you guys that have these giant yearlings, seems totally crazy to me (but then again I would never feed any species of snake more often than every 7 days).

Just heard back from the breeder, he says that they 'maintenance free' their hatchlings. I take that to mean they don't feed them LOL. Nothing goes in and nothing comes out.

:colbert:

Many breeders feed "maintenance". I personally do not like to "power feed". Of course, power feeding means something different to every one it seems. I don't like to push their body to reach adult hood size super fast.

I know from other species that this is most unhealthy because sometimes certain structures of the body will grow faster then others, potentially creating problems later on. Not sure if its the same in snakes, but aside from no arms or legs, their body functions much the same then other animals in many ways.

I look at it this way. I cannot force a snake to turn out bigger then it was genetically pre disposed by feeding it more or faster. I can make it fat. I can make it reach that size quicker. But it won't magically get bigger then it was meant to be. Nor do I want to force the body to be "ready to breed" before it should be. A lot of different systems in the body have to be "mature" to successfully (and safely) breed, not just the size.

The thing with breeding Ball Pythons morphs is this though, the longer you wait, the less profit you make on the babies. Each year the price for any certain morph tends to fall, as more are bred. That is why many people want to get their female up to size asap. and breed them asap.

Since profit is not my priority, I can grow mine slower and breed them when I feel they should be ready. I want my females at least 3 years old and the males 2 years old. But that's just me.

All that said, 166 gr at a year old IS rather small. But I have gotten yearlings at 250gr to 300 gr more then once and all of them grew nice and problem free. All of them reached a good size (without hurry).

I'm fairly sure I know which breeder you are talking about, and I have gotten wonderful animals from them. If the weight was listed, and correct, the breeder wasn't trying to hide it.

Just be open, email and ask whether there is a reason the male is so small. Whether he was a late starter, refusing meals, only taking certain food items or whether that is the way he grew him up on purpose. Never hurts to ask, this way you will know what you are dealing with :)


edited to say: I guess you already asked, didn't see that while I was replying.

I wish I could say that I am surprised but I am not, I have experience the same several times over the last decade, some large breeders just maintenance feed their animals and when you compare them to animal that you produce even if you feed once a week the animal you produce will generally be bigger even if younger.

Maintenance feeding can be anything from appropriate size every other week to a much smaller than leverage size every week.

The good news is that with proper feeding the animal will catch up.

At the same time heavy feeding is not something good either (there has been an increase of fatty liver disease seen in captive snakes, something usually discovered after a necropsy) there is a just a middle between barely feeding to keep your cost down and feeding heavy to get a return on your investment as fast as possible.

Well I can't believe that I have to feed a year old ball python week old pinky rats LOL. He did list the weights and I thought for sure that they were just not updated. Not sure why they don't feed at least once a week and update their weights. Most of the time when I'm looking for snakes that are a year or two old I want to use them as breeders, so I would almost pay 50% more for a male that weighs 800 grams and is ready to breed vs. a male that is still hatchling size at the same age.

And females too, just look on Morphmarket, almost all of the older females are gone because people want the weight on them to breed them. I bet that breeder would actually make more money feeding them well and updating weights (and increasing prices to match). The cost of the rodents would be much less than the price increase they could put on the snakes. I've seen hatchling females of some morphs sell for $1,000 while that same morph female at 2500 grams could fetch as much as $4,000!

I am pretty sure I know who the breeder is also and that is all I am going to say. Maintenance feeding can create issues. I have just the opposite problem. My babies grow too fast which becomes a problem if I have to hang on to them for a few months. I am sure there is an amount that is safe, but I am afraid to experiment. It cuts into my bottom line and takes up a lot of space. My adults I have pretty balanced and know exactly what they need in order to stay healthy. Babies are harder. The growth rates and the food required for the particular animal can vary greatly. I do not like how this breeder feeds his animals, but if people keep buying them it will continue. Those of us who do not feed like that have a hard time competing because our cost to maintain our animals is much higher.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I am pretty sure I know who the breeder is also and that is all I am going to say. Maintenance feeding can create issues. I have just the opposite problem. My babies grow too fast which becomes a problem if I have to hang on to them for a few months. I am sure there is an amount that is safe, but I am afraid to experiment. It cuts into my bottom line and takes up a lot of space. My adults I have pretty balanced and know exactly what they need in order to stay healthy. Babies are harder. The growth rates and the food required for the particular animal can vary greatly. I do not like how this breeder feeds his animals, but if people keep buying them it will continue. Those of us who do not feed like that have a hard time competing because our cost to maintain our animals is much higher.

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You should update your weights on the web and increase your prices. There should be a sliding scale. I just had a breeder friend of mine buy a female pied for $1,000, I think she is 1500 grams. So compare that to a hatchling pied female average price. Now take the amount of price increase per gram of snake weight and you have your price increase scale. If you do that you'll want to hang on to all of your snakes a bit longer, your rodents will be worth way more than they cost! If these two snakes I just bought were both ready to breed I would have paid double or triple the price without hesitation.

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

You should update your weights on the web and increase your prices. There should be a sliding scale. I just had a breeder friend of mine buy a female pied for $1,000, I think she is 1500 grams. So compare that to a hatchling pied female average price. Now take the amount of price increase per gram of snake weight and you have your price increase scale. If you do that you'll want to hang on to all of your snakes a bit longer, your rodents will be worth way more than they cost!

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In my experience, it sounds good, but it just doesn't work in practice. The only people that want adults are breeders. Breeders selling to breeders is nothing more than a pyramid scheme even if it is not meant that way. Pet owners almost always want babies for a few reasons. Also remember that many of the morphs change as they age. Many of the yellow based animals fade as they age. Albinos can start out looking sharp and super high contrast, then blur in a year (this is why I have bought most of my breeding albino stuff as adults). Even with really good genes you can end up with snakes that start off looking super hot and then a couple in that clutch will age badly, so unless you want to cull near adult sized snakes you are stuck with a mess.

Noone will pay more because a year old snake is 600 gr vs 300 gr. (example)

Not going to happen. Most people know there is WAY MORE then size to what matters in breeding. You still have to let them reach a certain age.

Not everything can be rushed and pushed to turn a profit faster.

What drives the price in morphs is not so much the weight , but the AGE. If you have a animal that is 2 or 3 years old and breed able (meaning large enough) that makes a difference.

If you have an animal that will be ready in one year, rather then two years, that makes a difference.

You can grow a BP to breedable age in 2 to 3 years, even at a slower pace. I see absolutely NO good in pushing an animal to reach that size in one year. If anything, you get an animal that will slugg out due to being fat or to immature (immature, despite size)

I would never, ever choose a breeder that changes their prices based on how big they grow their babies in a short amount of time. I expect to pay more for a proven female or one that will be ready (age + size) in a short time, but with hatchlings and yearlings (and breeders) there are far more important things I look for. Reputation, healthy animals that do well, honesty, etc..

But that is just me.

And we can have different opinions, nothing wrong with that :)

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Originally Posted by zina10

Noone will pay more because a year old snake is 600 gr vs 300 gr. (example)

Not going to happen. Most people know there is WAY MORE then size to what matters in breeding. You still have to let them reach a certain age.

Not everything can be rushed and pushed to turn a profit faster.

What drives the price in morphs is not so much the weight , but the AGE. If you have a animal that is 2 or 3 years old and breed able (meaning large enough) that makes a difference.

If you have an animal that will be ready in one year, rather then two years, that makes a difference.

You can grow a BP to breedable age in 2 to 3 years, even at a slower pace. I see absolutely NO good in pushing an animal to reach that size in one year. If anything, you get an animal that will slugg out due to being fat or to immature (immature, despite size)

I would never, ever choose a breeder that changes their prices based on how big they grow their babies in a short amount of time. I expect to pay more for a proven female or one that will be ready (age + size) in a short time, but with hatchlings and yearlings (and breeders) there are far more important things I look for. Reputation, healthy animals that do well, honesty, etc..

But that is just me.

And we can have different opinions, nothing wrong with that :)

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I agree with almost everything you said with the following disclaimers.

First a year old snake should not be at the weight of the one we are talking about in my experience that weight is insane.

I do not intentionally grow my animals fast especially those that that are going out the door. I am intentionally breeding for size and a willingness to eat. My babies are fed by the normal feeding chart. Even the few animals that I have produced that are not pigs are going to break that weight by miles. I have a male that I have refused to sell because I don't want to inflict his eating issues on anyone. He eats a rat pup on average one to two times a month. He was still around 500 grams at a year.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I have a male that I have refused to sell because I don't want to inflict his eating issues on anyone. He eats a rat pup on average one to two times a month. He was still around 500 grams at a year.

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and I have a male spider and female normal that eat when they want and have yet to switch to rat pups, they will only eat small mice. ;)
Both at a year old this month and right at 200 gram.

There is no reason or need to push growth, I was ignorant in the beginning too.
Age means far more than weight and you cant rush that BUT some people only see dollar signs...............

Well this year old ball python at 166 grams is literally not much bigger around than a week old rat pup, if you would have asked me how old it was I would have said about a month old. It's one thing to over feed, still another to not feed at all to make a buck, that's just wrong.

:rolleye2:

And size does matter for pricing, especially for females. Check out this big ol pied girl, 2460 grams, sold for $1,650. (It actually was sold yesterday)

https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/78962

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

And size does matter for pricing, especially for females. Check out this big ol pied girl, 2460 grams, sold for $1,650. (It actually was sold yesterday)

https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/78962

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Guess you forgot to read all the numbers......
DOB 2007!! Someone put TEN (10) years of time into that animal. That is not someone trying to make a buck with a quick flip.

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Originally Posted by zina10

Noone will pay more because a year old snake is 600 gr vs 300 gr. (example)

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But if a year old snake is 600 grams versus 166 grams I'm going to assume that the smaller snake is a poor feeder, or it has parasites, or it has something else wrong with it, and I will not buy it even if it is cheaper.

I've heard of two breeders who maintenance feed to the extent described by the OP and I will not do business with either of them.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

Lots of reasons for a smaller size baby, as long as the body structure is good, should grow to a normal size.
Maybe it was a slow starter, maybe only took live, maybe never got switched to rats.

My first BP was under 30 grams when i got her, super picky eater, took forever to get established. Was barely 23 grams after she took her first meal with me. I don't weight my snakes much back then but I'd guess she was well under 200 grams by the time she was a year. Doing great now though.

Current yearlings I've been raising up and feeding every 7-10 days are in the 300-400 gram range.

I'm amazed by all you guys that have these giant yearlings, seems totally crazy to me (but then again I would never feed any species of snake more often than every 7 days).

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Preach it sistah!! I have been talking to a few breeders on FB about the exact thing. It seems the new norm now is to see how fast and big you can grow a snake. I see so many sausages on FB. I partially blame it on some breeders as it seems now to make any cash really, you need to jump on the newest morph, grow to breeding size asap, breed asap and then sell babies asap. And once the rest of the crowd catches up, you dump that morph and move on to the next big one and rinse and repeat.

I actually had a gal on FB ask if her boa was underfeed and abnormally small since all the snakes she shes on FB are like 4' yearlings eating large rats lol. I as well as a few other people told her her boa actually looked in awesome shape and looked well taken care of. So sad that new people are misled by such bad info :(

Interesting posts to read. I have fed snakes for many years and feed on a schedule of 7 days, 6 days, 14 days, etc. I change it up constantly. I have never power fed and never even knew the meaning until the last few years. Today I have learned a new term..."maintenance feeding". I have to admit it is a pretty clever term for starvation. If ball pythons grew at that rate (166 grams per year) in the wild they would be extinct. I feed my snakes what I believe to be a very healthy diet on a healthy schedule. I guess if people quit their day job to try and strike it rich breeding snakes and starving them in the process, that's up to them. They will do quite well turning a profit since water can be found for free for a snake and a snake breathing air is also free. Maintenance feeding........SMH. I'm guessing I will soon find the breeders with a guilty conscious after I post this and I don't need to hear "problem feeder". That is code for "I just didn't feed them" because I just quit my day job.

What the hell is maintainance fed mean? Sounds like a box store (which I don't even do):)

I think a distinction needs to be made!!

If there is a breeder that routinely and purposefully STARVES snakes or in any other form neglects them, sends out unhealthy snakes, lies, is dishonest, etc etc etc, then there is a problem. Even one single one of those things is a problem.

Has that been determined though ? Are all of the snakes from this breeder underweight, starved, sickly and neglected animals ?

Or is this particular hatchling one that didn't grow as fast , which there can be many reasons for, and those reasons don't have to be starving it, neglecting it, abusing it?

There are MANY terrible breeders out there. One only has to read the Fauna classifieds or Facebook FBI (feedback). The stories will make ones hair stand straight up.

I'm pretty sure I know which breeder is being discussed. ALL of my Desert Ghost animals have come from him. And I have no problem at all stating this. I have shared pictures and stories of all of my animals and have yet to hear that they look bad. I know for a fact they are amazing. Were they HUGE for their age ? Nope. Were they underweight or starved ? Nope. They are healthy, beautiful animals that are doing very well and are growing at a healthy rate, nothing stunted here.

Now, one could say I'm only speaking in that breeders defense because my animals are from there. But ...that is not my agenda. I don't have an agenda. I have several breeders I have bought from and that I trust and I am VERY VERY picky. I do my research. I have researched from years back. Spoken to other buyers. I have my own experience to fall back on. I don't owe that or any breeder anything, nor do I have undying loyalty to any one of them.

166 gr. IS small !!! However, the breeder HAD the size on the webpage. One has to take the time and ask the questions. There may be a reason it grew slower.

I'm also not saying that a breeder can't do something wrong to one person just because they've been good to others. I'm saying that determining whether a breeder is good or bad should depend on a whole lot more then one animal that is small for its size, esp. when that doesn't seem to be a common problem. People talk about bad experiences. Even if they only think they have been wronged. You find out real quick if someone does something wrong. This breeder has had a stellar reputation for well bred, nice and healthy animals and for not screwing people over. Would someone risk that by starving their animals knowing that buyers will talk about that? Maybe so, but doubtful.

Maintenance feeding is NOT starving. Its just an expression. All it means is that they are not trying to hurry the snake along. And no way would a snake in the wild grow at a rate then the ones in our homes do. There is a difference to feeding one to grow nice and slow and starving one. They look quite different from one another.

Power feeding is also an expression. People thought it meant to "force" the snake to eat more then it wants by "chain feeding". What it really means is to keep the snake growing at a incredible speed. It works with Ball Pythons, with Boas you will have them regurge and fail. Ball Pythons will grow quickly, but like Deb pointed out, it has been established through necropsies just how damaging it can be.

I'm not coming to the defense of THIS breeder. I'm saying to not throw anyone into a pot based on a expression and one small animal.

There are feedback pages. If someone feels wronged, they can certainly post on there. They can also question whether other people had a problem. At least in that way the breeder can present their side and other buyers can relate with their own experience. Who knows, maybe a pattern emerges in one way or another.


edited to say: Just want to point out one more time that maintenance feeding is not something that ends up with 166 gr. yearlings. All mine were bigger at that age. Obviously there was something else going on. A very small hatchling, slow to start, picky about particular food items, etc. Some take longer and then take off. This should have been discussed before the sale, that is for sure. Perhaps something can be worked out about returning the animal if there is dissatisfaction?

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

What the hell is maintainance fed mean? Sounds like a box store (which I don't even do):)

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Maintenance fed just means that when an animal is a few years old and out of it's 'growing' phase, you basically feed it enough to keep it healthy but not get obese. Problem with captive snakes especially boas who have a slow metabolism is that that 6' snake kept in that 4x2 cage has no real room to move around like in the wild where they would have to climb, swim, crawl and basically hunt for food and possibly go months without finding it. They would burn calories looking but in captivity, they dont need to do anything except sit there like a bump on a log waiting for that clockwork feeding to come around.

Same goes for a BP. They usually hang out in termite mounds and abandoned dens. So they literally hav2 choices, wait for dinner to wander in and pray they catch it or go out looking for it. In a cage, using energy to go out looking for dinner is pretty minimal since again, most people use very small cages for them. So they wait around. Well in the wild, I would imagine that dinner doesn't come wandering in like clockwork every week or 2 and is the optimum size. So you basically maintenance feed to basically do what mother nature does, only artificially.

And some guys will actually lower temps and quit feeding altogether for a few months for boas to simulate winter. Also heard its not bad for them to do that. My boas all live in an eternal summer though but I do tend to stretch their feedings out more in the winter. And for my BP, well she regulates herself. Last winter she quit eating for 6 months but managed to shed, poop and grow during that time haha. My boas do that too. In winter when I feed them less, they seem to shed more and grow more haha.

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Originally Posted by zina10

I think a distinction needs to be made!!

If there is a breeder that routinely and purposefully STARVES snakes or in any other form neglects them, sends out unhealthy snakes, lies, is dishonest, etc etc etc, then there is a problem. Even one single one of those things is a problem.

Has that been determined though ? Are all of the snakes from this breeder underweight, starved, sickly and neglected animals ?

Or is this particular hatchling one that didn't grow as fast , which there can be many reasons for, and those reasons don't have to be starving it, neglecting it, abusing it?

There are MANY terrible breeders out there. One only has to read the Fauna classifieds or Facebook FBI (feedback). The stories will make ones hair stand straight up.

I'm pretty sure I know which breeder is being discussed. ALL of my Desert Ghost animals have come from him. And I have no problem at all stating this. I have shared pictures and stories of all of my animals and have yet to hear that they look bad. I know for a fact they are amazing. Were they HUGE for their age ? Nope. Were they underweight or starved ? Nope. They are healthy, beautiful animals that are doing very well and are growing at a healthy rate, nothing stunted here.

Now, one could say I'm only speaking in that breeders defense because my animals are from there. But ...that is not my agenda. I don't have an agenda. I have several breeders I have bought from and that I trust and I am VERY VERY picky. I do my research. I have researched from years back. Spoken to other buyers. I have my own experience to fall back on. I don't owe that or any breeder anything, nor do I have undying loyalty to any one of them.

166 gr. IS small !!! However, the breeder HAD the size on the webpage. One has to take the time and ask the questions. There may be a reason it grew slower.

I'm also not saying that a breeder can't do something wrong to one person just because they've been good to others. I'm saying that determining whether a breeder is good or bad should depend on a whole lot more then one animal that is small for its size, esp. when that doesn't seem to be a common problem. People talk about bad experiences. Even if they only think they have been wronged. You find out real quick if someone does something wrong. This breeder has had a stellar reputation for well bred, nice and healthy animals and for not screwing people over. Would someone risk that by starving their animals knowing that buyers will talk about that? Maybe so, but doubtful.

Maintenance feeding is NOT starving. Its just an expression. All it means is that they are not trying to hurry the snake along. And no way would a snake in the wild grow at a rate then the ones in our homes do. There is a difference to feeding one to grow nice and slow and starving one. They look quite different from one another.

Power feeding is also an expression. People thought it meant to "force" the snake to eat more then it wants by "chain feeding". What it really means is to keep the snake growing at a incredible speed. It works with Ball Pythons, with Boas you will have them regurge and fail. Ball Pythons will grow quickly, but like Deb pointed out, it has been established through necropsies just how damaging it can be.

I'm not coming to the defense of THIS breeder. I'm saying to not throw anyone into a pot based on a expression and one small animal.

There are feedback pages. If someone feels wronged, they can certainly post on there. They can also question whether other people had a problem. At least in that way the breeder can present their side and other buyers can relate with their own experience. Who knows, maybe a pattern emerges in one way or another.


edited to say: Just want to point out one more time that maintenance feeding is not something that ends up with 166 gr. yearlings. All mine were bigger at that age. Obviously there was something else going on. A very small hatchling, slow to start, picky about particular food items, etc. Some take longer and then take off. This should have been discussed before the sale, that is for sure. Perhaps something can be worked out about returning the animal if there is dissatisfaction?

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Zina I love your post and it is very well written. I have no clue who this breeder is and I really don't care. My root question in this though is why didn't this breeder fully disclose all the information on this 166 gram snake when it was up for sale. It's not too hard to write in the sale description "This snake is small for it's age due to (blank)". Even if they don't know, put on the description "I have no explanation for it's smaller than average size and it feeds regularly once a week or whatever the time frame may be. Should the buyer have researched this snake before he bought it? In the world I wish we lived in no he shouldn't of had to. Unfortunately in this world we do live in yes he should have. To assume......well we all know how the saying goes. Will this snake grow up to be happy and healthy? Without a doubt yes but it's life up to this point sounds like it has sucked. I have no description for me to believe other wise.

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Originally Posted by Momokahn

Zina I love your post and it is very well written. I have no clue who this breeder is and I really don't care. My root question in this though is why didn't this breeder fully disclose all the information on this 166 gram snake when it was up for sale.

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The weight was listed in the sale the buyer assumed it was a typo.....

I'd also like to say that the seller was completely honest and upfront about the whole transaction, no deception at all. I'm happy with my purchase and received two beautiful snakes that are amazing. I was just shocked and surprised that he didn't feed them very much, that was totally unexpected. I just assumed that a big breeder like that would feed better and assumed the weights were just not updated. He was not trying to hide anything, these were his exact words, "we maintenance feed our hatchlings and feed them smaller meals over a longer period of time". Doesn't sound like a problem feeder to me, sounds like they just don't feed them very much.

Intersting informative thread. After reading this, I will confess that I am a "power-feeder" and I like to see my snakes eating relatively larger meals, relatively quickly. I only have one snake that is overweight and I bought her that way as an adult, and I have recently trimmed her down a bit by feeding smaller meals.

You regulars have all seen photos of my snakes, and with the exception of the Araza that I bought super-fat, none of my snakes are overweight. My snakes do grow rapidly from hatchlings to adults. I do not feel guilty one bit about "power-feeding". My first snake Ragnarok, I adopted on Craigslist, and he was tiny! He was emaciated and his scales were always dried out and poor shed. I "power-fed" him, feeding the maximum sized meals he could possible swallow, and feeding every week. His length grew extremely rapidly, and he went from 22" to 47" in 1 year!!!! I was really amazed, I asked the local reptile retailer about it, and he told me that Ragnarok may have been a lot older than he appeared, and once I fixed his husbandry and started feeding him thanksgiving meals:hungry: he grew fast, because of his older age, a "catch-up growth" so to speak. The reptile store owner that I asked about the growth, stated he had never heard of a ball python growing that fast, and was pretty amazed himself!

Anyway, my point is I am a power-feeder according to the above guidelines, and I feel good about it. Once they get to healthy adult size, then I go to 'maintenance feed" schedule of course. I would much rather be a power-feeder, than have troubled eaters that are emaciated or 1 year old snakes that look like newborns! That is SICK!

Another point I've been pondering.

We all agree, that without the "larger scale" breeders (and not talking of the puppymills for snakes here, just bigger then hobby breeders) we wouldn't have the availability of quality Ball Pythons and the affordability of many morphs. That is just a fact.

Unless one successfully runs such a larger breeding facility, the day to day challenges might not become clear until one grows to that size.

You have often said that you are rapidly expanding your collection of late, adding lots of animals to really take off as a larger scale breeder. Lets just say that you will have 35 breed-able females (all that just an example). Lets say they each lay a clutch of 7 eggs. You will have some with more eggs, some with less, some with none. But lets just say 7 eggs times 35.

You will have 245 hatchlings. Feeding them really is no problem once you breed your own rodents.

Lets say you feed them strongly, because you believe it raises their value and you like to feed them well. They grow rapidly, like strongly fed Ball Pythons do. While you are trying to sell them, you will have to quickly move them into Juvie tubs at the minimum. And they do not sell THAT fast. Many breeders have their hatchlings for a year OR MORE while promoting them.

Lets say despite aggressively promoting, selling (shows and online) you, like so many others, will still have quite a few left at a year old. Even if only lets say...100 of them. Remember, you are "new" and it takes a while for people to trust a "new" breeder with a un-known reputation. Selling is not as easy at all. Unless you start dumping them or their prices, which will cut into your profit and doesn't do a reputation well, either. So 100 of them will quickly need to go into adult tubs at the rate you fed them.

Do you have the space to house not only your adults, the hatchling racks but also adult racks for AT LEAST 100+ (most likely more) adult sized tubs for quickly grown juvies that reached 1000 gr before you could sell them? Plus some "juvie" racks...

Breeding animals at that level is going to be different then doing it as a hobby. That is why I rather not go into it full blown. But I have all the respect for people that DO do it, because it is thanks to them we have the availability and there are far less imports.

I do understand that there are challenges at that level, though. In order to do this "right" there is a LOT of time and investment, and I doubt the profit is as high as many that go into this think. At least not until they build up a reputation and a gorgeous collection of carefully picked out or home grown animals.

All it takes is bringing in one animal from a questionable source and not quarantine correctly. And an entire collection can be destroyed..

If a breeder (and I'm not talking about that breeder alone) has consistently and for many years produced and sold healthy and quality animals and has a slew of happy customers plus no drama/deception/lies and scams, then maintenance fed animals are nothing I worry about. Esp. with so many bad breeders around. Maintenance feeding is most likely far more "natural" to the snake, then the way we feed them once we bring them home, esp. the ones that get rushed along to get them up to breeding size.

Again, 166 gr. IS low, though. I don't think its typical for that breeder for them to be "that" low. At least not in my experience nor have I heard that complaint. That does not mean that Chris shouldn't have been concerned or disappointed in that fact. I'm not trying to downplay his right to be concerned. The breeder could have had more of an explanation since I don't feel that is exactly a "normal" weight for a maintenance fed yearling. Could it have been a late in the season '16 ? One that took off late? Again, that could have been explained better.

I'm happy for Chris that the animals appear healthy and beautiful and I'm looking forward to pictures. I'm sure he'll have them up to size in no time :)

Zina, you are my hero today!!!
Too many people dont want to look at or accept all corners of breeding and your last post shines a great light on what others refuse to contemplate.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Zina, you are my hero today!!!
Too many people dont want to look at or accept all corners of breeding and your last post shines a great light on what others refuse to contemplate.

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Aw, thank you ;)

That is because I'm a bit of a "over thinker". At night, when I can't sleep, I go through different scenarios in my head. All the implications of any situations, planning it out, thinking of all the different factors.

Plus I've been there before when starting projects (not animal breeding). Thinking "I can do that". Even going so far as to think "I can do this better". Only to figure out that there are things I haven't factored in and it doesn't quite work out like I've thought. And its a humbling experience. When animals or any living being is involved, it becomes even more critical to think through every little teeny tiny aspect. Rarely is there a "good profit" to be made with animal breeding. Its a fickle business and a lot can go wrong. Many come and go.

The ones that stick it out and make it a success (that incl. quality healthy animals and great business ethics) have my greatest respect.

Maintenance feeding I have no problem with, if everything else checks out and has checked out for many years.

But again, i do understand that Chris was taken aback. 166 gr. is on the small side, even if it was a late 16 hatchling and slow to start. But hopefully it will take off and turn into another prize animal in his collection :)

Well Zina I have had time to think about all of this and once again love your posts. Yes I do agree without the dedication of breeders, we wouldn't have these animals we so dearly care about. My passion for snakes runs very deep and at times maybe to deep.

Thanks again Zina and I :salute::salute: you. :)

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Originally Posted by Momokahn

My passion for snakes runs very deep and at times maybe to deep.

Thanks again Zina and I :salute::salute: you. :)

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No such thing as to deep when it comes to that :)

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Originally Posted by zina10

Another point I've been pondering.

We all agree, that without the "larger scale" breeders (and not talking of the puppymills for snakes here, just bigger then hobby breeders) we wouldn't have the availability of quality Ball Pythons and the affordability of many morphs. That is just a fact.

Unless one successfully runs such a larger breeding facility, the day to day challenges might not become clear until one grows to that size.

You have often said that you are rapidly expanding your collection of late, adding lots of animals to really take off as a larger scale breeder. Lets just say that you will have 35 breed-able females (all that just an example). Lets say they each lay a clutch of 7 eggs. You will have some with more eggs, some with less, some with none. But lets just say 7 eggs times 35.

You will have 245 hatchlings. Feeding them really is no problem once you breed your own rodents.

Lets say you feed them strongly, because you believe it raises their value and you like to feed them well. They grow rapidly, like strongly fed Ball Pythons do. While you are trying to sell them, you will have to quickly move them into Juvie tubs at the minimum. And they do not sell THAT fast. Many breeders have their hatchlings for a year OR MORE while promoting them.

Lets say despite aggressively promoting, selling (shows and online) you, like so many others, will still have quite a few left at a year old. Even if only lets say...100 of them. Remember, you are "new" and it takes a while for people to trust a "new" breeder with a un-known reputation. Selling is not as easy at all. Unless you start dumping them or their prices, which will cut into your profit and doesn't do a reputation well, either. So 100 of them will quickly need to go into adult tubs at the rate you fed them.

Do you have the space to house not only your adults, the hatchling racks but also adult racks for AT LEAST 100+ (most likely more) adult sized tubs for quickly grown juvies that reached 1000 gr before you could sell them? Plus some "juvie" racks...

Breeding animals at that level is going to be different then doing it as a hobby. That is why I rather not go into it full blown. But I have all the respect for people that DO do it, because it is thanks to them we have the availability and there are far less imports.

I do understand that there are challenges at that level, though. In order to do this "right" there is a LOT of time and investment, and I doubt the profit is as high as many that go into this think. At least not until they build up a reputation and a gorgeous collection of carefully picked out or home grown animals.

All it takes is bringing in one animal from a questionable source and not quarantine correctly. And an entire collection can be destroyed..

If a breeder (and I'm not talking about that breeder alone) has consistently and for many years produced and sold healthy and quality animals and has a slew of happy customers plus no drama/deception/lies and scams, then maintenance fed animals are nothing I worry about. Esp. with so many bad breeders around. Maintenance feeding is most likely far more "natural" to the snake, then the way we feed them once we bring them home, esp. the ones that get rushed along to get them up to breeding size.

Again, 166 gr. IS low, though. I don't think its typical for that breeder for them to be "that" low. At least not in my experience nor have I heard that complaint. That does not mean that Chris shouldn't have been concerned or disappointed in that fact. I'm not trying to downplay his right to be concerned. The breeder could have had more of an explanation since I don't feel that is exactly a "normal" weight for a maintenance fed yearling. Could it have been a late in the season '16 ? One that took off late? Again, that could have been explained better.

I'm happy for Chris that the animals appear healthy and beautiful and I'm looking forward to pictures. I'm sure he'll have them up to size in no time :)

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This is a good summation of what is going on. At the end of the day, it is up to the buyer to decide what they deem appropriate. Feeding babies, even on a smaller scale, can become voodoo. This goes for both over and underfeeding. Overfeeding is known to cause problems in other species. I personally don't have this problem with ball pythons. Mine stop eating when they have had enough. I have yet to have an overweight one but I'm sure it can happen.

I will say this and leave it be I hope...

Underfeeding can cause many issues. At some point the immune system becomes compromised and anything goes at that point. I know this for a fact. When you buy an undersized animal you are taking a risk. A risk that can cost you a lot of money. I for one will only buy and sell healthy animals that are appropriately proportioned for their age. That does not mean they have to be monsters like I produce, it means within a safe average. This goes for adults and babies.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

This is a good summation of what is going on. At the end of the day, it is up to the buyer to decide what they deem appropriate. Feeding babies, even on a smaller scale, can become voodoo. This goes for both over and underfeeding. Overfeeding is known to cause problems in other species. I personally don't have this problem with ball pythons. Mine stop eating when they have had enough. I have yet to have an overweight one but I'm sure it can happen.

I will say this and leave it be I hope...

Underfeeding can cause many issues. At some point the immune system becomes compromised and anything goes at that point. I know this for a fact. When you buy an undersized animal you are taking a risk. A risk that can cost you a lot of money. I for one will only buy and sell healthy animals that are appropriately proportioned for their age. That does not mean they have to be monsters like I produce, it means within a safe average. This goes for adults and babies.

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I agree.

That said, I believe "in this instance" that THIS size/age is not the norm with the breeder.

And undersize does not necessarily mean purposely starved. Late in year hatchling, slow to get started, prefering a smaller rodent size or simply a smaller hatchling (many eggs) all factors in too.

I have seen small for age hatchlings that looked perfectly healthy and beautiful and grew up without a problem and fast once they got going.

I've seen small for age hatchlings that looked terrible. De-flated, spine very prominent and rough looking.

Either way, the breeder should make sure the buyer is satisfied and offer a better explanation.


Over feeding can cause harm even if not readily apparent (like with Boas that regurge). Animals that have had necropsies done have been found with fatty liver disease, even though they weren't "obese" looking per say. And I have seen some dimply, fat Ball Pythons, that have a depression along the spine, LOL. I think common sense dictates that neither over nor underfeeding is good for any species at all.

But I am fairly certain that the wild animals grow far FAR slower then the ones in our collections, and that this is fairly normal for them, since they are opportunistic feeders (sometimes finding a lot, sometimes no food)

The adults I've had for 7 years were grown SLOW. Some may say "maintenance fed". I did not starve them, but since I had no interest in breeding, I didn't grow them rapidly. Despite that all reached adult size, never sick, still growing. Slow and steady. In one case (Jag) growing HUGE !!!! All were able to breed without problem, too.

Not sure if that is anecdotal, but all have kept their colors VERY nicely into adulthood.

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Originally Posted by zina10

I agree.

That said, I believe "in this instance" that THIS size/age is not the norm with the breeder.

And undersize does not necessarily mean purposely starved. Late in year hatchling, slow to get started, prefering a smaller rodent size or simply a smaller hatchling (many eggs) all factors in too.

I have seen small for age hatchlings that looked perfectly healthy and beautiful and grew up without a problem and fast once they got going.

I've seen small for age hatchlings that looked terrible. De-flated, spine very prominent and rough looking.

Either way, the breeder should make sure the buyer is satisfied and offer a better explanation.


Over feeding can cause harm even if not readily apparent (like with Boas that regurge). Animals that have had necropsies done have been found with fatty liver disease, even though they weren't "obese" looking per say. And I have seen some dimply, fat Ball Pythons, that have a depression along the spine, LOL. I think common sense dictates that neither over nor underfeeding is good for any species at all.

But I am fairly certain that the wild animals grow far FAR slower then the ones in our collections, and that this is fairly normal for them, since they are opportunistic feeders (sometimes finding a lot, sometimes no food)

The adults I've had for 7 years were grown SLOW. Some may say "maintenance fed". I did not starve them, but since I had no interest in breeding, I didn't grow them rapidly. Despite that all reached adult size, never sick, still growing. Slow and steady. In one case (Jag) growing HUGE !!!! All were able to breed without problem, too.

Not sure if that is anecdotal, but all have kept their colors VERY nicely into adulthood.

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I am not 100% sure we are all talking about the same breeder(s) and honestly identifying them is not necessary for me. I had a very bad experience with underfed animals and it will never happen again. I just want people to be aware that when they hear maintenance fed they need to take a hard look at where the animal is weight wise. I know normal and not normal for hatchlings at this point and buy and sell accordingly. Many of the things that are discussed on the board I experiment with because I have the resources to expend. I don't discuss them much because many are set in their ways regardless of the facts presented. The experiment I did that is inline with this discussion goes like this. I had two nearly identical brothers from the same clutch. I fed one by the guidelines we all use. With the following modifications...

Snake 1: Fed every a normal sized 5 days meal for the first 2 months. Then backed off to weekly. I think he hit 800 grams by the time he was a year old. He actually bred at 3 months old I think (he's a freak but it is genetic, his father was the same way). He is the father of many of my clutches this year. This guy does not miss meals, not even deep in shed.

Snake 2: Does not miss meals either, but I fed him weekly and only rat pups for almost a full year even though he was more than capable of taking a small. He remained healthy looking but was a little over half the size of his brother. I decided to breed him this year so I started feeding him smalls. He caught up to his brother in about two months.

What I got out of this is that they can be "underfed" and not stunted. I would not want to go below what I did in the experiment though for this line of snakes however. They "want" to be big. The girls from this line are massive even on a "normal" feeding routine. I would guess that genetically smaller animals could get by with even less but there is going too far. I will never make any real money breeding snakes. I cannot underfeed them to the point I am hitting the danger zone. I decided that I wanted to make animals that are good pets. I do not sell stuff that does not eat well. Ball pythons have gotten a bad rap with the eating thing. It doesn't have to be that way. I believe much of the not eating, when not husbandry related, is genetic. Not everything I make is "perfect" eating wise but 90% of my stuff wants to be big and they like to eat. That said my business model is not working. People are just more interested in the latest morph rather than getting something that is easy to deal with, and I understand that. I did it with Gravel. I got beautiful animals but it will take a few generations for me to put the size and attitude I like on them.

As far as overfeeding, when one of my big ones finally kicks the bucket, I will open it up and see about the liver. It is my suspicion that girls that are not breeding are more likely to have this problem if it exists for ball pythons. I have a girl that is 20+ years old, eats like a pig, but doesn't lay. If any of them go from fatty liver it will be her. 20+ years for this animal is doing pretty good though.

BTW by grown slow? how slow? What was the feeding routine? More proven data is always good to have.

Do you mean my schedule ?

What I meant by "grown slow" is simply that I did not rush them to bring them up to size for breeding. Of course I didn't starve them. They got a "appr" sized meal about once the week. Skipping when in shed.

They did not reach breeding size in one year.

The only time I fed them more aggressively was when I decided to breed the females. Which they did without problem.

Appropriate size can mean many things of course.

I went by the girth of snakes bodies and rodents body, to try to match them up, erring on the smaller (rodent) size.

As adults they were fed about every 2 weeks, but by then most were on medium sized rats. Jag of course, will take large rats now, they disappear without a trace, LOL

I think "maintenance fed" can mean different things to different people. I use it as the opposite of power feeding (while definitely NOT underfeeding, either). I have shared a ton of pictures of all my animals, I don't think either looked small/skinny or fat. Jag is huge, but not fat either ;)

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Originally Posted by zina10

Do you mean my schedule ?

What I meant by "grown slow" is simply that I did not rush them to bring them up to size for breeding. Of course I didn't starve them. They got a "appr" sized meal about once the week. Skipping when in shed.

They did not reach breeding size in one year.

The only time I fed them more aggressively was when I decided to breed the females. Which they did without problem.

Appropriate size can mean many things of course.

I went by the girth of snakes bodies and rodents body, to try to match them up, erring on the smaller (rodent) size.

As adults they were fed about every 2 weeks, but by then most were on medium sized rats. Jag of course, will take large rats now, they disappear without a trace, LOL

I think "maintenance fed" can mean different things to different people. I use it as the opposite of power feeding (while definitely NOT underfeeding, either). I have shared a ton of pictures of all my animals, I don't think either looked small/skinny or fat. Jag is huge, but not fat either ;)

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I don't remember ever seeing a snake of yours that looked underfed. LOL. I apologize if you thought that is where I was going. Was just trying to get at a schedule and prey size. The more data we have that shows safe the better off we will be. I believe if anything I error on the too much side even though I follow the guidelines up until I am ready to breed a female. I rely on my snakes to tell me when they have had enough, which though it has worked for me historically may not be the best way to go about things.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I don't remember ever seeing a snake of yours that looked underfed. LOL. I apologize if you thought that is where I was going. Was just trying to get at a schedule and prey size. The more data we have that shows safe the better off we will be. I believe if anything I error on the too much side even though I follow the guidelines up until I am ready to breed a female. I rely on my snakes to tell me when they have had enough, which though it has worked for me historically may not be the best way to go about things.

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Honestly, there are no "set in stone" guidelines, I don't think...

It would take years of research, incl. under and over feeding animals, cutting them open, etc etc.

What we can do, is take our and others experiences into account, see how the animals are doing plus using a good dose of "common sense". No 2 animals are exactly alike either. You learn "to know" your own animals. You see what works for them.

I try to stay away from any "extreme" and I try to make good health and husbandry my Nr. 1 priority.

One can only do their best ;) I feel like most people strive for that, too. At least most people I've gotten to know in these forums.

I wonder... I have been feeding Dante every week for 7 years unless in shed or not eating from fasting.

He has since maturing maintained a very healthy weight range of 1100-1200 grams. It's just how he is. Never have had issues but...

Is there a benefit of every two weeks? I mean on my pocket book there is an obvious benefit but should every owner of a mature ball python migrate to a 2 week cycle instead of weekly? It would not harm him I know but I never really gave it much thought until I started seeing more and more adult owners switching to 2 weeks schedules. Or, is this just one of the many rules that spread around the community over the years as gospel truth and has no basis in scientific fact?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SDA

I wonder... I have been feeding Dante every week for 7 years unless in shed or not eating from fasting.

He has since maturing maintained a very healthy weight range of 1100-1200 grams. It's just how he is. Never have had issues but...

Is there a benefit of every two weeks? I mean on my pocket book there is an obvious benefit but should every owner of a mature ball python migrate to a 2 week cycle instead of weekly? It would not harm him I know but I never really gave it much thought until I started seeing more and more adult owners switching to 2 weeks schedules. Or, is this just one of the many rules that spread around the community over the years as gospel truth and has no basis in scientific fact?

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As far as I know, there is very little science for reptiles in general let alone ball pythons specifically. I bought a few reptile vet textbooks. Rich on pictures, weak on knowledge. Most honest vets will fess up that they really don't know much.

That said the most knowledge I have ever found concerning these animals is on this forum, as long as you can tell opinion from fact. People do things and they pass it on.

I put a few of my adult males on a bi-weekly schedule to see how they do compared to ones on a weekly schedule. So far everything appears fine, but I have a couple pissed off boys on feeding day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SDA

Is there a benefit of every two weeks? I mean on my pocket book there is an obvious benefit but should every owner of a mature ball python migrate to a 2 week cycle instead of weekly? It would not harm him I know but I never really gave it much thought until I started seeing more and more adult owners switching to 2 weeks schedules. Or, is this just one of the many rules that spread around the community over the years as gospel truth and has no basis in scientific fact?

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I feed my non-breeding adult females every two weeks, and my non-breeding adult males every three weeks. This basically matches the schedule that they put themselves on when every snake used to be offered a rat weekly. After reading about FLD I decided that I wasn't doing them any favors by overfeeding, and the vast majority of snakes are overfed in captivity anyway. Some people would call this "maintenance feeding" since the snakes aren't really growing at a fast rate any more.

FWIW to get back to the breeders I know of with the tiny babies, "maintenance feeding" meant "just enough to keep them alive". It's done strictly to save money, not to prevent health issues due to overfeeding.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I feed my non-breeding adult females every two weeks, and my non-breeding adult males every three weeks. This basically matches the schedule that they put themselves on when every snake used to be offered a rat weekly. After reading about FLD I decided that I wasn't doing them any favors by overfeeding, and the vast majority of snakes are overfed in captivity anyway. Some people would call this "maintenance feeding" since the snakes aren't really growing at a fast rate any more.

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Did you notice behavioral changes or any change in defecation or increased activity after switching? Did they fast longer or shorter after switching or was it not at all? Or have you done this all along? I really want to know if anyone switched to a bimonthly diet in a 5+ year old and if there were any noticeable changes in behavior or digestion. I would adore every 2 weeks as it would stretch the rat supply twice as long which would me half as much annually.

I see JodanOrNoDan has done it and really have been temped to try it out and see how his weight and behavior changes if any. Cost of feed is secondary to health and if spreading out feeding in mature snakes improves health, I am all about that.

Fatty liver is a problem in just about any animal overfed and one of the main reasons I keep/kept every animal I own/owned trim. Never had an animal die early.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I feed my non-breeding adult females every two weeks, and my non-breeding adult males every three weeks. This basically matches the schedule that they put themselves on when every snake used to be offered a rat weekly. After reading about FLD I decided that I wasn't doing them any favors by overfeeding, and the vast majority of snakes are overfed in captivity anyway. Some people would call this "maintenance feeding" since the snakes aren't really growing at a fast rate any more.

FWIW to get back to the breeders I know of with the tiny babies, "maintenance feeding" meant "just enough to keep them alive". It's done strictly to save money, not to prevent health issues due to overfeeding.

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This pretty much hits the nail on the head. It saves money, space and time. It saves money up until something gets sick. I don't know this for a fact but I would bet that the sick animals get culled because it is cheaper to cull them than to treat them.

I bet these animals are kept in dark tubs as well so the breeder cannot see them. Many of my young babies go ballistic if I skip a week. Especially the spiders. There is no way you could look at that and not feed if you have an ounce of humanity left.

The most entertaining excuse I have heard for not feeding was "I cannot get enough rats to feed as often as I want to." This is an actual excuse from a very well known breeder. Maybe, just maybe, if that is true, the breeder needs to rethink his/her operation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SDA

I wonder... I have been feeding Dante every week for 7 years unless in shed or not eating from fasting.

He has since maturing maintained a very healthy weight range of 1100-1200 grams. It's just how he is. Never have had issues but...

Is there a benefit of every two weeks? I mean on my pocket book there is an obvious benefit but should every owner of a mature ball python migrate to a 2 week cycle instead of weekly? It would not harm him I know but I never really gave it much thought until I started seeing more and more adult owners switching to 2 weeks schedules. Or, is this just one of the many rules that spread around the community over the years as gospel truth and has no basis in scientific fact?

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Honestly depends on the animal.

Bought mine with the breeder candidly saying he DID skip weeks already on his own. When I first got him, he ate weekly for me. But now he's back to refusing for a week or two then wanting it on the second/third week.

I think a lot of it depends on the particular animal. My male is rather lean due to these self-imposed fasts but since May he's gone from about 34" long and in the mid 600s to 37" long and in the high 700s. Some males will eat weekly or more often, probably based on the prey weight to body weight ratio and tons of other factors. Some only one a small once a month.

I'm not doing it to save cash, it's more not to waste it since he's been regularly refusing bi-weekly, leading to me having to toss a rat. So, I've swapped him to a biweekly feeding for now. Maybe through the summer he'll go back to weekly.

I just make sure to observe him at night.

In his hide watching me/the GF? Not hungry.

On top of his hide nosing the lid/glass? Probably hungry. Try offering the following weekend.

So far it's been working for him.

As an addition, to stay topical: the reason the breeder held him back 'til he was 2 was PROBABLY due to this and the fact careguides often biblically set a "once a week small rat!" guide. Pollux is not doing that. The breeder didn't underfeed him by choice, nor have I.

Something to take into consideration when getting small adults.

Pretty much my feeling is if he starts suddenly putting on weight beyond his normal maount, I will more than likely reduce to bimonthly. He has been fine weekly for 7 years and since I am not trying to save cash ($15 a month is pretty cheap for that type of entertainment), I have no real incentive to reduce feeding. I also am having a hard time finding concrete evidence for reduced feeding outside of "I want to save a few bucks"

I just feed them as much as they want. It seems that they fast (stop eating) themselves for the most part. As they are growing, they eat like pigs, once they reach adult hood, they slow way down.

So I am totally cool with "maintenance-feeding" an adult, it makes sense. I am not cool with under-feeding a baby, feed them! Let them pig out all they can until they are full-grown.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I don't know this for a fact but I would bet that the sick animals get culled because it is cheaper to cull them than to treat them.

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Well... I've spoken with two exotic vets in my area and neither see a whole lot of normal ball pythons or common boas as patients, just the more expensive morphs.

Take that for what you will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Well... I've spoken with two exotic vets in my area and neither see a whole lot of normal ball pythons or common boas as patients, just the more expensive morphs.

Take that for what you will.

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This holds true as well for the vets I know.