Young BP and new owner feeding concerns

Hello!

My husband and I recently acquired an approx 6month old BP who was shown by feeding records to be a good eater. We've had him for 3 weeks and we've offered twice and he's completely uninterested in the food. We're using f/t hoppers (that's what the store said he was eating successfully). I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. He's very active at night, literally climbing the walls. Fairly active during the day (exploring the new digs?) Anyway, he's pretty much terrified of the food and I don't know if it's the way I'm trying to feed him (I use tongs and in trying to make as little noise as possible, I've dipoles the mouse a few times).

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

Hello!

My husband and I recently acquired an approx 6month old BP who was shown by feeding records to be a good eater. We've had him for 3 weeks and we've offered twice and he's completely uninterested in the food. We're using f/t hoppers (that's what the store said he was eating successfully). I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. He's very active at night, literally climbing the walls. Fairly active during the day (exploring the new digs?) Anyway, he's pretty much terrified of the food and I don't know if it's the way I'm trying to feed him (I use tongs and in trying to make as little noise as possible, I've dipoles the mouse a few times).

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Please provide us with your husbandry. Your temps hot/cold side? Humidity? Ambient temps? Are you offering feeder warm?

Apparently I can't edit my post...I didn't actually mean to hit "post" but I'm on a phone. Here's the whole post:

Hello!

My husband and I recently acquired an approx 6month old BP who was shown by feeding records to be a good eater. We've had him for 3 weeks and we've offered twice and he's completely uninterested in the food. We're using f/t hoppers (that's what the store said he was eating successfully). I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. He's very active at night, literally climbing the walls. Fairly active during the day (exploring the new digs?) Anyway, he's pretty much terrified of the food and I don't know if it's the way I'm trying to feed him (I use tongs and in trying to make as little noise as possible, I've dropped the mouse a few times, plus opening and closing the top isn't exactly quiet as it's a screen top with clamps).

Our main concern is that he's young and we don't know how long it's safe for something that young to go off food. We got him October 9th and he had last eaten the week prior, so he's been off food for 4 weeks. I need to get a weight and length on him. We haven't been handling except the minimum necessary to clean the aquarium.

We're really nervous owners because we had a BP that we got earlier this year that was sick when we got him (as new owners, we had no idea...we just thought he was adjusting to the new surroundings) and died within a month. We just don't want this guy to starve on us.

Temps are good, humidity is a bit low, but we're working on that.

What exactly are the temps? Also your heat is controlled by a thermostat?

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Originally Posted by Newbie39

What exactly are the temps? Also your heat is controlled by a thermostat?

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His hot side sits between 85-90, cool side between 75-81. Humidity sits around 30%, but we're working to bump that up...fighting against the AC pulling moisture out of the air. He's got lots of hiding places, 2 hides plus a plant. We don't have a thermostat, but we haven't had issues with temps staying in the accepted ranges.

I think it def. could be the temps. A constant 88 to 90 would be better for hot side, cold side at 80. and that humidity def. needs to come up. You say screen top? Maybe cover it with a towel or something? I have limited experience with glass enclosures. what are using to heat the enclosure? If just UTH you may need to add a secondary heat source on top.

Maybe someone else can chime in here please that has experience with glass tanks.

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

Hello!

My husband and I recently acquired an approx 6month old BP who was shown by feeding records to be a good eater. We've had him for 3 weeks and we've offered twice and he's completely uninterested in the food. We're using f/t hoppers (that's what the store said he was eating successfully). I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. He's very active at night, literally climbing the walls. Fairly active during the day (exploring the new digs?) Anyway, he's pretty much terrified of the food and I don't know if it's the way I'm trying to feed him (I use tongs and in trying to make as little noise as possible, I've dipoles the mouse a few times).

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Your main priority is getting your husbandry right and making sure the snake feels safe and secure.
Once husbandry and security are solid, you may need to try different approaches regarding how you hear the prey item, whether you feed off tongs or just leave the prey, etc... I would contact the breeder and find out how they heated and fed and mimic that. Bps can be finicky eaters. I have one who will only eat if I defrost and heat the prey a certain way.

Lastly, hoppers are only fed for the first 3-5 meals generally and then switched to rat fuzzies or small adult mice.
Hope this chart helps:https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...672e2a1b1e.jpg

Sent from my SM-J327T1 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

His hot side sits between 85-90, cool side between 75-81. Humidity sits around 30%, but we're working to bump that up...fighting against the AC pulling moisture out of the air. He's got lots of hiding places, 2 hides plus a plant. We don't have a thermostat, but we haven't had issues with temps staying in the accepted ranges.

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Running heating equipment without a thermostat is a ticking time bomb. PLEASE unplug it ASAP in order to avoid serious burns or even fatal heat spikes due to unregulated heat sources. An Unregulated UTH can spike to 120 degrees and cause horrific burns or even death. There was a thread about a week or two ago that a member started asking what to do about their snake being burned. Trust me, you don't want that.

As regards the actual feeding ...

This method WORKS if done properly ...
I wait until evening as they're nocturnal of course . I let the rodent thaw out in the reptile room so they get the smell ..
Then I warm up the mouse / rat with a hairdryer and offer with tongs IMMEDIATELY whilst still warm . If refused simply repeat the heating and offering as many times as needed. .
A couple of mine will only strike feed from within their hides so I dangle the warm rodent in front of the hide's entrance - usually works but if it fails simply reheat the rodent with a hairdryer and immediately offer again whilst it's still warm continue until it's grabbed ...


Incidentally , if it shows no interest at all not even a tongue flicker maybe it's best to leave for a week or so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Running heating equipment without a thermostat is a ticking time bomb. PLEASE unplug it ASAP in order to avoid serious burns or even fatal heat spikes due to unregulated heat sources. An Unregulated UTH can spike to 120 degrees and cause horrific burns or even death. There was a thread about a week or two ago that a member started asking what to do about their snake being burned. Trust me, you don't want that.

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I never said I had a UTH. I have a ceramic heat source above.

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

I never said I had a UTH. I have a ceramic heat source above.

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Nope, but you didn't specify, so I cited one example. ALL heat sources should be regulated, including CHEs. Heat spikes can be FATAL.

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

Apparently I can't edit my post...I didn't actually mean to hit "post" but I'm on a phone. Here's the whole post:

Hello!

My husband and I recently acquired an approx 6month old BP who was shown by feeding records to be a good eater. We've had him for 3 weeks and we've offered twice and he's completely uninterested in the food. We're using f/t hoppers (that's what the store said he was eating successfully). I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. He's very active at night, literally climbing the walls. Fairly active during the day (exploring the new digs?) Anyway, he's pretty much terrified of the food and I don't know if it's the way I'm trying to feed him (I use tongs and in trying to make as little noise as possible, I've dropped the mouse a few times, plus opening and closing the top isn't exactly quiet as it's a screen top with clamps).

Our main concern is that he's young and we don't know how long it's safe for something that young to go off food. We got him October 9th and he had last eaten the week prior, so he's been off food for 4 weeks. I need to get a weight and length on him. We haven't been handling except the minimum necessary to clean the aquarium.

We're really nervous owners because we had a BP that we got earlier this year that was sick when we got him (as new owners, we had no idea...we just thought he was adjusting to the new surroundings) and died within a month. We just don't want this guy to starve on us.

Temps are good, humidity is a bit low, but we're working on that.

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Can someone please answer the actual question I have which is "when should I be worried about him not eating?" He's currently 64 grams and approx 15 inches long. I appreciate all the feeding advise, but that's not my question.

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

Can someone please answer the actual question I have which is "when should I be worried about him not eating?" He's currently 64 grams and approx 15 inches long. I appreciate all the feeding advise, but that's not my question.

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Sometimes solving the problems that are causing the problem in question is the best answer you can get. Getting the snake eating is your goal, I was simply trying to help you get there. But if you don't want to hear advice from years of successful experience and want to do it your way, not gonna stop you. Rather than trying to figure out when to worry, maybe try to figure out how to solve the problem...

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Sometimes solving the problems that are causing the problem in question is the best answer you can get. Getting the snake eating is your goal, I was simply trying to help you get there. But if you don't want to hear advice from years of successful experience and want to do it your way, not gonna stop you. Rather than trying to figure out when to worry, maybe try to figure out how to solve the problem...

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I'm trying to determine at what point I need to panic and take him to the vet, who is nearly and hour and a half away. There are thousands of feeding advise forums, but I have yet to find a "healthy weight" metric. I'm not saying your advise is useless, please don't think that. But I have no idea if my snake is dangerously thin. I know very little about his background.

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

I'm trying to determine at what point I need to panic and take him to the vet, who is nearly and hour and a half away. There are thousands of feeding advise forums, but I have yet to find a "healthy weight" metric. I'm not saying your advise is useless, please don't think that. But I have no idea if my snake is dangerously thin. I know very little about his background.

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Ok, so in order to help you with that we will need pics. Weight and length are helpful, but actual shape and body condition will tell us if the animal is healthy, too skinny or dangerously thin.
Unfortunately, I've got to head to work in a few, so if I don't reply somebody else will be on to help soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

Can someone please answer the actual question I have which is "when should I be worried about him not eating?" He's currently 64 grams and approx 15 inches long. I appreciate all the feeding advise, but that's not my question.

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We are. Until you get temps. on point your snake will be stressed and not eat.

Feeding will only come if you perfectly square away your husbandry. My first contact would be with the pet store you bought it from to make sure they were feeding frozen thawed. I would also ask if they have live feed as that might be required to get this to work. I question if they had them on f/t but if they did they also most likely had them in a small rack where they felt secure enough to eat. You are not in dire straights yet with the feeding issue and you have some time before you even need to start worrying but get your snake in the ideal conditions. Wait 5-7 days before you even look in on him/her then offer food.

Don't handle your snake for at least a week while you try and get them feeding after fixing their setup. That is the worst thing you can do to a snake getting used to surroundings.

You can do it with your current setup but you need clutter and small hides and if in a glass tank you must block off the sides and back. The more clutter the better to get them to feel safe and hidden.

You need to get a UTH and thermostat to regulate their under heat on the hot side right away, an overhead CHE isn't going to cut it alone. You also need to regulate that CHE as they can get well over 300 degrees and dry out an enclosure rapidly. If you are using aspen shavings you will need to eventually move away from those as they are horrible for retaining humidity. Go Eco Earth or Forest Floor from zoo med. Your pet shop should stock these. Either will work.

2 properly sized hides, UTH, thermostat, blocked off back and sides, clutter, do not handle, wait 5 days between feed attempts no exceptions, and above all else have patience.

Get your enclosure feeling secure, your heat and humidity under control and you will get your feeding happening.

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Originally Posted by SDA

I would also ask if they have live feed as that might be required to get this to work. .

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That was going to be my suggestion, just for the time being at least to a get a meal into it.

I think the snake will be fine for another week if the breeder/store records are fine. I'm concerned for the snakes health if she doesn't get a UTH controlled by a thermostat. Also needs a thermostat for the CHE. The snake is likely very cold without belly heat.

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Originally Posted by Newbie39

I think the snake will be fine for another week if the breeder/store records are fine. I'm concerned for the snakes health if she doesn't get a UTH controlled by a thermostat. Also needs a thermostat for the CHE. The snake is likely very cold without belly heat.

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I agree you need a source of regulation for the CHE, but I wouldn't say I agree with the part about a UTH being necessary in every scenario.

Case in point: I don't use belly heat AT ALL, but rather only radiant heat panels for all of my animals without problems. This was the suggestion of numerous other experienced keepers as well as Bob from Pro Products. It makes sense as well, snakes don't have a source of "belly heat" in the wild to digest meals. Rather, they use a source of basking heat (which can be provided in captivity by CHE's or RHP's). Just make sure you're keeping proper temperatures directly under the bulb at substrate level.

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Originally Posted by KevinK

I agree you need a source of regulation for the CHE, but I wouldn't say I agree with the part about a UTH being necessary.

Case in point: I don't use belly heat AT ALL, but rather only radiant heat panels for all of my animals without problems. This was the suggestion of numerous other experienced keepers as well as Bob from Pro Products. It makes sense as well, snakes don't have a source of "belly heat" in the wild to digest meals. Rather, they use a source of basking heat (which can be provided in captivity by CHE's or RHP's). Just make sure you're keeping proper temperatures directly under the bulb at substrate level.

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Do the CHE's provide ample heat like a radiant heat panel? If so I totally agree with you. I believe they don't though. People often use CHE's and a UTH. I apologize if I'm wrong but I didn't realize she had a radiant heat panel.

CHE = RHP and RHP = CHE the only difference is the surface area of the devices and the upper range of heat they get to. RHPs have more surface area and don't get as hot. That is the only difference where radiant heat is involved.

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Originally Posted by SDA

CHE = RHP and RHP = CHE the only difference is the surface area of the devices and the upper range of heat they get to. RHPs have more surface area and don't get as hot. That is the only difference where radiant heat is involved.

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Thanks Good to know.

My beep wouldnt eat when I dangled it in front of him so I left him alone and made sure it was dark and quiet and he ate :)

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Ok, so in order to help you with that we will need pics. Weight and length are helpful, but actual shape and body condition will tell us if the animal is healthy, too skinny or dangerously thin.
Unfortunately, I've got to head to work in a few, so if I don't reply somebody else will be on to help soon.

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It won't let me post any pictures. I'll post on my profile.

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

It won't let me post any pictures. I'll post on my profile.

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Easiest way to upload photo is to get the free app TapaTalk ...


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This thread is all over the place. Ball pythons do not need heat panels, lights, or heating pads. What they do need optimally is a body temp between 84 and 88 degrees. How you get to that is up to you. For me this means an AC unit in the summer and a oil filled heater in the winter.

For the OP. Depending on the current condition and age of the animal, ball pythons can go quite a long time without eating. My record is an 8 month fast by an adult male. For babies less than six months old I tend to get concerned if they skip three meals.

Ball pythons will only eat if they believe they can safely digest their meals. All animals must have the proper humidity and temps. Some animals require a spot they feel confined and secure (read hides). Some animals will eat just about anything thrown their way. Others want a certain prey item heated and dangled just right, and still others may demand live.

How long the animal can go without food becomes moot once the animal eats. Vet trips can become very expensive. I would do everything I could to convince the animal to eat before taking it to the vet unless it is displaying signs of illness. The vet can't fix not eating. The vet can medicate the animal and can tube feed it. That is about it.

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Originally Posted by Jacmiller11

I never said I had a UTH. I have a ceramic heat source above.

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all heat sources need to be regulated by it her a thermostat or dimmer. We are trying to help you and your beep.

I have glass tanks. Humidity is always the issue with glass. I take a piece of cardboard the size of the screen top cut a hole for the light (trace the hood on the cardboard) and then cover the entire thing in foil. I use reptile prime bedding but Eco earth works the same for the most part. You can also put some damp not wet moss into the corners of the tank. Che goes on hot side with the uth (you will need one and control it with a thermostat) water bowl in the middle and hides in the back corners. Lots of plants to hide. Oh and cover three sides of the tank with black paper.

Here is the thing about that and it irks me a bit...

Yes, heat pads and heat panels are necessary for a large amount of the people keeping cold blooded animals in temperate climates. I wish this hobby would be more uniform like the other pet care hobbies and stop saying conflicting information simply because someone is lucky enough to live in an environment that matches their pet snake's ideal habitat. An under tank heater and if the house temperature demands it, an above tank emitter or other sort of radiant panel is very necessary and should not be told to someone starting out they are not needed. Temperature and how to achieve it with the equipment in the hobby doesn't change. The only factor that changes is how warm the room that cage is kept in... period.

Something that is a proven in the vast majority of climates to support the healthy growth and vitality of a reptile should never be discouraged when advice to a new user is given. It is far simpler to tell someone get a heat mat/heat tape and CHE/RHP than it is to try and explain the engineering principles of heating a confined space to the exact conditions necessary in the geographic location of your point on the planet. It would be as foolish of me to explain the conditions I keep my snake in in West Tennessee as the gospel truth as it is to assume someone should do the same because they live in Canada or Southern Florida. Instead we offer standards of care that should be endorsed and followed to avoid confusion.

Even breeders use heat tape or heat panels for their snakes in racks. That's like saying I'll just heat my basement to 82 degrees and everyone should be fine. you will still have varying degrees all over the room. And heat rises so unless your snake is on the ceiling......lol

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Even breeders use heat tape or heat panels for their snakes in racks. That's like saying I'll just heat my basement to 82 degrees and everyone should be fine. you will still have varying degrees all over the room. And heat rises so unless your snake is on the ceiling......lol

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I am a breeder. The only thing that has heat tape in my little operation is my isolation rack because it is kept outside the main environment. I just turned on the heat tape in that rack last night because the ambient hit 82. It was off all spring and summer. I have over 100 animals that get by just fine on ambient between 84 and 88.

When you are keeping only one species, it is pretty easy and economical to set up an entire room like a giant incubator. The top of the rack does get warmer than the bottom, but that is what fans are for.

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Originally Posted by SDA

Here is the thing about that and it irks me a bit...

Yes, heat pads and heat panels are necessary for a large amount of the people keeping cold blooded animals in temperate climates. I wish this hobby would be more uniform like the other pet care hobbies and stop saying conflicting information simply because someone is lucky enough to live in an environment that matches their pet snake's ideal habitat. An under tank heater and if the house temperature demands it, an above tank emitter or other sort of radiant panel is very necessary and should not be told to someone starting out they are not needed. Temperature and how to achieve it with the equipment in the hobby doesn't change. The only factor that changes is how warm the room that cage is kept in... period.

Something that is a proven in the vast majority of climates to support the healthy growth and vitality of a reptile should never be discouraged when advice to a new user is given. It is far simpler to tell someone get a heat mat/heat tape and CHE/RHP than it is to try and explain the engineering principles of heating a confined space to the exact conditions necessary in the geographic location of your point on the planet. It would be as foolish of me to explain the conditions I keep my snake in in West Tennessee as the gospel truth as it is to assume someone should do the same because they live in Canada or Southern Florida. Instead we offer standards of care that should be endorsed and followed to avoid confusion.

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If you were not referring to my post, ignore this otherwise please give this some thought.

I also do not like inconsistencies so I deal with what is consistent. The needs of the animal are not going change. There are desirable methods to provide them and undesirable ones. On the desirable side we can say any heating or cooling source provided must be regulated. When you keep a lot of animals of the same species and you have the space life is much easier and in my case more economical to just treat an entire room like a giant incubator. This works for every climate.

If regulating a room is not feasible and or you do not have a lot of animals, regulated heat tape is the next best bet however even this method needs to be supplemented with radiant or ambient heat in extremely cold climates.

On the undesirable side there are tanks with screen lids with a heat lamp on top. It can work and some here have made it work great however this is the most inefficient method to heat and maintaining humidity is a war.

What I am getting at is understanding what the animal needs. Before I had a lot of animals I used heat tape and just left it on all year until a light bulb went off in my head and I realized that for most of the year I was solving a problem that didn't even exist. My house was already the right temp for the animals, why was I trying to heat them? They were never over the heat tape anyway.

To directly address the OP's question it's all about monitoring their weight and body condition.

They can lose ( at that size ) a few grams just through pooping and peeing but when their weight loses more than approx 5g I would be treating it as slightly worrying.

The advice given in the thread so far should hopefully help him start eating for you and avoid any panic. :)