Regurgitation - Need Help

Need some help here please. I recently switched over from f/t mice to f/t rats. Fed my BP his 1st rat pup on Weds night. He's a shy eater so I had to let it in the cage and come back the next day to find it gone. Well I left for the weekend and just returned tonight (sunday) and found him laying next to a regurgitated rat. The smell was intoxicating and I was mortified. It took me several minutes to figure out how I was going to get him out of the cage while he sat next to the rat.

For info, he's about 250-250 grams and this was his 1st rat pup. What could be some of the reasons be this happened and what should I do going forward? I think I remember reading that I should hold off feeding him for something like two weeks. Should I try another rat pup again or revert back to a mouse?

Any ideas how to get the smell out of the cage? I stripped everything out and cleaned it w/ some chlorhexadine but that only does so much w/ the trapped air in the pvc enclosure.

I think the general rule for regurg is do not feed or handle the snake for 2 weeks, then try again with a smaller prey item, but I'm more or less a beginner and could be off.

He certainly sounds big enough for a rat pup, is it possible something in his temps or humidity had gone off while you were gone? Maybe he got a bit stressed by something husbandry wise and thus regurged.

you'll need a deep cleaning. regurge smell is horrible.

two weeks until next feed. feed smaller prey.

are your temps where they should be and are you certain of those temps? regurge happens due to stress or too low temps. is it possible something spooked him? could temps be too low?

not the same but i tried to feed Coffee Bean a medium mouse when she was 3g below 200g and she struck but refused it. i'm thinking the meal might have been to big for her, so it could have happened with your guy. just an anecdote.

be sure husbandry is not the source of the regurge. where were your feeders from?

Don't feed for at least two weeks and when you do offer a feeder a size smaller than what you had been. I would feed a f/t mouse hopper. Dust the damp feeder with some NutriBAC, which is a powdered reptile probiotic that helps reptiles recover from stress after shipping, regurges, antibiotic treatments, etc. You can order it on Amazon while you wait for the next feeding.

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Originally Posted by honeybee

He certainly sounds big enough for a rat pup, is it possible something in his temps or humidity had gone off while you were gone? Maybe he got a bit stressed by something husbandry wise and thus regurged.

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That’s a good question which is hard to answer since I wasn’t there this weekend. I wouldn’t think the temps would have changed since everything is controlled by my Herpstat2. I’m just wondering if it has something to do w/ his 1^st rat.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

you'll need a deep cleaning. regurge smell is horrible.

two weeks until next feed. feed smaller prey.

are your temps where they should be and are you certain of those temps? regurge happens due to stress or too low temps. is it possible something spooked him? could temps be too low?

be sure husbandry is not the source of the regurge. where were your feeders from?

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It smells really bad but better since I removed the rat. I’ll be honest, I don’t check my temps w/ the temp gun like I did when I 1^st set up the enclosure. I’ve been relying on the readouts on my HerpStat unit, temp and humidity gauges. This morning, the Herpstat was running on the correct settings, the hotside temp gauge was reading 92.8, ambient was 79.5 and humidity was 74%. I’m guessing the cool side surface temp is in the low 80s. I would of used the temp gun but didn’t want to disturb my BP. I can do that tonight if needed.
As for spooked, maybe noise from kids playing in the basement. But that’s just a wild guess. Hasn’t been an issue before.
I bought the feeders from Feeder Source who were at the Atlanta repticon. I don’t know anything about them. Should I continue to try feeding the rat pups I purchased here after I finish the 2 week wait and offering of a smaller prey?

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Don't feed for at least two weeks and when you do offer a feeder a size smaller than what you had been. I would feed a f/t mouse hopper. Dust the damp feeder with some NutriBAC, which is a powdered reptile probiotic that helps reptiles recover from stress after shipping, regurges, antibiotic treatments, etc. You can order it on Amazon while you wait for the next feeding.

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Good advice on the NutriBAC, I’ll pick some up. Wouldn’t a mouse hopper be too small considering his weight? I think the local petstore only has small, med, large and fuzzy. Would one of these work? He started off on med and quickly went to large.

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

It smells really bad but better since I removed the rat. I’ll be honest, I don’t check my temps w/ the temp gun like I did when I 1^st set up the enclosure. I’ve been relying on the readouts on my HerpStat unit, temp and humidity gauges. This morning, the Herpstat was running on the correct settings, the hotside temp gauge was reading 92.8, ambient was 79.5 and humidity was 74%. I’m guessing the cool side surface temp is in the low 80s. I would of used the temp gun but didn’t want to disturb my BP. I can do that tonight if needed.
As for spooked, maybe noise from kids playing in the basement. But that’s just a wild guess. Hasn’t been an issue before.
I bought the feeders from Feeder Source who were at the Atlanta repticon. I don’t know anything about them. Should I continue to try feeding the rat pups I purchased here after I finish the 2 week wait and offering of a smaller prey?

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i'd continue feeding the rat pups after the 2 weeks + smaller prey, but if another issue arrises i'd ditch them real quick.
since you can't be sure what the cause was, you just need to ensure it won't happen again. monitor your temps for a week to be sure they're correct, and just watch for abnormal behavior.

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

Wouldn’t a mouse hopper be too small considering his weight? I think the local petstore only has small, med, large and fuzzy. Would one of these work? He started off on med and quickly went to large.

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Small mouse then.

I'm still having issues getting this out of my mind. The more I read the more it sounds serious; even reading a thread that if happens again it could result in death. What scares me the most is that I haven't been able to pin point what the reasoning was. The only thing that changed was that I went from f/t mice to f/t rats. The temps should not have changed because I have a HerpStat2 running as well as the Heater in the room set to run nonstop at 77 degrees

I was able to get some enclosure temps but I'm hesitant to get the best possible reading (temp gun on hot surface) because I don't want to disturbed a possibly stressed out BP.

Hot Side Surface: 93 (thermo reading w/ probe on UTH)
Cool Side Surface: 83 (taken w/ temp gun on surface)
Ambients (78-79ish)
Humidity:70ish

I'm hesitant to to attempt to remove that nasty smell from the enclosure or do anything which would involved opening the cage doors as to not disturb him in the next two weeks. For the record, I wiped down the cage as best I could when the rat was discovered so it's fairly clean....just the awful 'dead' smell.

Any additional advice would be helpful? This experience has been pretty traumatic so far.

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

Any additional advice would be helpful? This experience has been pretty traumatic so far.

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for cleaning: use a vinegar solution to help get rid of the smell. i agree with you in that i'd wait the 2 weeks before messing with her too much (if the smell will allow it).

my only ever regurge happened with Yellow when i had an ambient heat spike a year or so ago. it hadn't lasted more than an hour but that was still long enough to stress him out to that point. i waited the two weeks out and he's been a good boy ever since, but i was TERRIFIED after that, tho. i literally thought i might have killed him and i was waiting to come home and find a corpse. it was traumatic for us both, but we managed to pull through.

as for the reason why it happened, i can't help you there. i'm sure this all would be easier for you if you knew what happened. just know that regurges do happen sometimes (and for a reason), it's terrible, and you must try your best to learn and avoid it in the future (you already are).

beeps bounce back 100% if proper care is provided in the aftermath. :) your noodle will be just fine.

I second the vinegar. It is probably the best thing to get rid of the stink.

Normally a cause can be found for a regurge. In this case it was probably the food change that upset the animal. Relax, as long as the animal is not exhibiting any other symptoms of illness it is probably fine.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

for cleaning: use a vinegar solution to help get rid of the smell. i agree with you in that i'd wait the 2 weeks before messing with her too much (if the smell will allow it).

my only ever regurge happened with Yellow when i had an ambient heat spike a year or so ago. it hadn't lasted more than an hour but that was still long enough to stress him out to that point. i waited the two weeks out and he's been a good boy ever since, but i was TERRIFIED after that, tho. i literally thought i might have killed him and i was waiting to come home and find a corpse. it was traumatic for us both, but we managed to pull through.

as for the reason why it happened, i can't help you there. i'm sure this all would be easier for you if you knew what happened. just know that regurges do happen sometimes (and for a reason), it's terrible, and you must try your best to learn and avoid it in the future (you already are).

beeps bounce back 100% if proper care is provided in the aftermath. :) your noodle will be just fine.

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The pvc enclosure is good at keeping humidity and smells in so if I don't open the cage doors it doesn't bother me too much. Do you just bottle spray w/ vinegar & water and wipe down?

I REALLY hope this is not related to the f/t rats that I bought. This was the 1st one of 24 so I'm leery of giving him another one after the 2 week period.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I second the vinegar. It is probably the best thing to get rid of the stink.

Normally a cause can be found for a regurge. In this case it was probably the food change that upset the animal. Relax, as long as the animal is not exhibiting any other symptoms of illness it is probably fine.

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So if it's a food change, wouldn't it be a good chance this could happen again (going back to a small mouse and then trying a rat pup again)? No signs of illness but also hard tell since he's been in his hide when the times I've seen him.

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

The pvc enclosure is good at keeping humidity and smells in so if I don't open the cage doors it doesn't bother me too much. Do you just bottle spray w/ vinegar & water and wipe down?

I REALLY hope this is not related to the f/t rats that I bought. This was the 1st one of 24 so I'm leery of giving him another one after the 2 week period.

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you can do that. mix something like 1 part water 1 part vinegar and use that as a cleaning solution. vinegar is great at tackling smells.

it is an interesting note that this happened with the first feeder from a new supply. honestly, the piece of mind of buying new feeders just might be worth it to you if you can afford it. if you're not comfortable offering those feeders, then don't. "when in doubt, throw it out" applies, and the feeders are the only suspect at this point.

if this happened to me, tho, i'd offer one more of those feeders and see. if ANYTHING suspicious happens – from refusal, to a weird poo afterwards – anything at all, i'd pitch 'em.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

you can do that. mix something like 1 part water 1 part vinegar and use that as a cleaning solution. vinegar is great at tackling smells.

it is an interesting note that this happened with the first feeder from a new supply. honestly, the piece of mind of buying new feeders just might be worth it to you if you can afford it. if you're not comfortable offering those feeders, then don't. "when in doubt, throw it out" applies, and the feeders are the only suspect at this point.

if this happened to me, tho, i'd offer one more of those feeders and see. if ANYTHING suspicious happens – from refusal, to a weird poo afterwards – anything at all, i'd pitch 'em.

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I'm a novice in this area so I appreciate all the knowledge shared. Price isn't so much of an issue but I hate to toss 24 newly purchased rat pups if it's something else. Is there a 'safe' place to buy f/t rat pups if I do choose that route or need more after the 24 are gone?

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

I'm a novice in this area so I appreciate all the knowledge shared. Price isn't so much of an issue but I hate to toss 24 newly purchased rat pups if it's something else. Is there a 'safe' place to buy f/t rat pups if I do choose that route or need more after the 24 are gone?

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PerfectPrey.com

i had a smelly batch of f/t feeders from somewhere, and when Spaghetti started refusing them, i decided "when in doubt, throw them out." i bought entirely new stock from PerfectPrey.com and she was back on feed. i don't think i've ever heard a bad story about PerfectPrey.

Could have been an issue with the freezing and shipping of those rodents. Where did you get your feed from?

I have only used Big cheese rodent as a supplier so I can't attest to any other but they are amazing with shipping and packaging. It arrived frozen solid and packed so well that my last few are as good as the first few I ordered last batch. They only ship Monday and Tuesday to avoid issues with delivery and they use dry ice and insulated packages to ship.

I hate buying from big pet stores or reptile shows because I have no idea how they have been stored and most reptile shows just sell in a frozen bag that is not prepared in a way that makes it easy to keep them free of getting freezer burn.

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Originally Posted by SDA

Could have been an issue with the freezing and shipping of those rodents. Where did you get your feed from?

I have only used Big cheese rodent as a supplier so I can't attest to any other but they are amazing with shipping and packaging. It arrived frozen solid and packed so well that my last few are as good as the first few I ordered last batch. They only ship Monday and Tuesday to avoid issues with delivery and they use dry ice and insulated packages to ship.

I hate buying from big pet stores or reptile shows because I have no idea how they have been stored and most reptile shows just sell in a frozen bag that is not prepared in a way that makes it easy to keep them free of getting freezer burn.

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I bought them a week ago from www.feedersource.com who was at the Atlanta repticon. I purchased 25 of them and transported them back to the house in a cooler. They are in a frozen zipped locked bag which doesn't seem to have any freezer burn. They definitely looked in better shape then the Artic Mice that I used to buy from PetsMart which always had traces of blood coming from the mouth area.

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

I bought them a week ago from www.feedersource.com who was at the Atlanta repticon. I purchased 25 of them and transported them back to the house in a cooler. They are in a frozen zipped locked bag which doesn't seem to have any freezer burn. They definitely looked in better shape then the Artic Mice that I used to buy from PetsMart which always had traces of blood coming from the mouth area.

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I cannot attest to the quality of either source of food, however do not associate quality with blood around the mouth and nose. It is normal. Bad feeders will usually have an off smell to them. I consider dirty and or skinny rodents to be of bad quality.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I cannot attest to the quality of either source of food, however do not associate quality with blood around the mouth and nose. It is normal. Bad feeders will usually have an off smell to them. I consider dirty and or skinny rodents to be of bad quality.

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That's fair and I believe I've heard this before. These new feeders did not seem dirty nor skinny and I didn't notice any smell.

Just a thought but I'm wondering if the way I thawed the f/t rat had some bearing on the regurgitation. I used the same techniques which I've used on the f/t mice. Thaw in the Fridge for several hours and then place the rat/mouse at room temp near the enclosure for 2-3 hours. Then I hit the rat w/ a hair dryer for 20-30 seconds. The rat felt like he was thawed but maybe there is a better 'sure' way to prepare a f/t.

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

Just a thought but I'm wondering if the way I thawed the f/t rat had some bearing on the regurgitation. I used the same techniques which I've used on the f/t mice. Thaw in the Fridge for several hours and then place the rat/mouse at room temp near the enclosure for 2-3 hours. Then I hit the rat w/ a hair dryer for 20-30 seconds. The rat felt like he was thawed but maybe there is a better 'sure' way to prepare a f/t.

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to check f/t feeders i always squeeze at the hips and the head to check for cold spots, as those are the last parts of the body to thaw out (they're the thickest). maybe next time try thawing in room-temperature water after the fridge stage.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

to check f/t feeders i always squeeze at the hips and the head to check for cold spots, as those are the last parts of the body to thaw out (they're the thickest). maybe next time try thawing in room-temperature water after the fridge stage.

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I've tried to avoid thawing in water as to avoid a wet rodent but I guess I can keep them in the bag to accomplish this. Maybe then pull them out for the last hour to get the niece 'aroma' to excite my BP :snake:

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

I've tried to avoid thawing in water as to avoid a wet rodent but I guess I can keep them in the bag to accomplish this. Maybe then pull them out for the last hour to get the niece 'aroma' to excite my BP :snake:

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i don't like feeding wet rodents, either. i double bag: feeder goes into a sandwich ziploc bag, that bag goes into a gallon ziploc bag, that all goes into the water. right before the hairdryer step i waft the bag into the enclosure of whoever i'm feeding and they're usually ready to go within 15 seconds.

Wet rats... yuck. I hate it when I get them wet. They stink and some of my animals won't touch a wet one. I watched vids of brian feeding and all the rats are just thawing in water. Nasty stuff. Maybe if I had as many animals to feed as he does I would do it too but currently I still try to keep them dry.

Hold on... You fed the rat, left for the weekend and there were kids in the basement... Better ask your kids if they took the snake out and handled it, that would cause a regurge in an instant. Usually only happens to me if I handle too soon after feeding. Just a thought...

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

Hold on... You fed the rat, left for the weekend and there were kids in the basement... Better ask your kids if they took the snake out and handled it, that would cause a regurge in an instant. Usually only happens to me if I handle too soon after feeding. Just a thought...

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No, my kids are very young, have no interest in the snake and the cage is locked. My oldest son who is 4 hasn't even held the snake yet. The rat was fed on a weds night and I left Friday morning so that's just short of 48 hours that I was there. My wife believes she started smelling something either Friday night or Saturday morning but just thought it was snake poop (not the regurgitated rat). I'm pretty good about following instructions on here. 48 hours always!

It's possible there was 'traffic' in the basement Saturday (kids playing) but that's no different then any other time.

Sorry to continue to keep this thread going but one thing which came to mind yesterday is that my snake has yet to shed for me and it's been around 2-3 months since he arrived. He's been putting on some good weight (approx 60g) and eating each week so I wasn't too worried. But now w/ the regurgitation issue coinciding w/ the possibility of shedding; I'm hoping they don't cross paths....

Well it's coming up on two weeks since the regurgitation episode happened. Here's the sequence of events:

18th (weds): Fed 1st f/t Rat pup ever

19th (Thurs): No Sign of Rat Pup (unless it was in hide)

20th (Fri) in the morning: No Sign of Rat Pup (unless it was in hide)

*** Wife said something smelled really bad but she can't remember if it was Fri or Sat ***

22nd (Sun): Discovered Regurged Rat in cage after returning from trip

Since these events, I haven't' taken my BP out of the cage except the day of discovery when I had to remove the rat and perform a cleaning (The enclosure still smells awful when I open the sliding door).

I purchased a small mouse and some Nutribac supplement to sprinkle on the food (recommended by another person on this site).

Is it OK to try feeding again tomorrow (weds) which is 2 weeks from last feeding or should I wait until this weekend (2 weeks from regurgitation)?

I'm also thinking about getting rid of the 24 f/t rat pups that I purchased from a company at Repticon and repurchasing from one of the companies mentioned on this site. Seems like this may be good piece of mine because I have NO IDEA what caused this issue to happen.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

Well it's coming up on two weeks since the regurgitation episode happened. Here's the sequence of events:

18th (weds): Fed 1st f/t Rat pup ever

19th (Thurs): No Sign of Rat Pup (unless it was in hide)

20th (Fri) in the morning: No Sign of Rat Pup (unless it was in hide)

*** Wife said something smelled really bad but she can't remember if it was Fri or Sat ***

22nd (Sun): Discovered Regurged Rat in cage after returning from trip

Since these events, I haven't' taken my BP out of the cage except the day of discovery when I had to remove the rat and perform a cleaning (The enclosure still smells awful when I open the sliding door).

I purchased a small mouse and some Nutribac supplement to sprinkle on the food (recommended by another person on this site).

Is it OK to try feeding again tomorrow (weds) which is 2 weeks from last feeding or should I wait until this weekend (2 weeks from regurgitation)?

I'm also thinking about getting rid of the 24 f/t rat pups that I purchased from a company at Repticon and repurchasing from one of the companies mentioned on this site. Seems like this may be good piece of mine because I have NO IDEA what caused this issue to happen.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

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feed this weekend, when the 2 weeks from regurge are up. :)

it's your choice whether or not you decide to toss the feeders, but since they are the only suspect in this mystery it probably wouldn't hurt and the piece of mind that comes with new feeders is definitely worth it.

good luck on your next feeding!

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

Well it's coming up on two weeks since the regurgitation episode happened. Here's the sequence of events:

18th (weds): Fed 1st f/t Rat pup ever

19th (Thurs): No Sign of Rat Pup (unless it was in hide)

20th (Fri) in the morning: No Sign of Rat Pup (unless it was in hide)

*** Wife said something smelled really bad but she can't remember if it was Fri or Sat ***

22nd (Sun): Discovered Regurged Rat in cage after returning from trip

Since these events, I haven't' taken my BP out of the cage except the day of discovery when I had to remove the rat and perform a cleaning (The enclosure still smells awful when I open the sliding door).

I purchased a small mouse and some Nutribac supplement to sprinkle on the food (recommended by another person on this site).

Is it OK to try feeding again tomorrow (weds) which is 2 weeks from last feeding or should I wait until this weekend (2 weeks from regurgitation)?

I'm also thinking about getting rid of the 24 f/t rat pups that I purchased from a company at Repticon and repurchasing from one of the companies mentioned on this site. Seems like this may be good piece of mine because I have NO IDEA what caused this issue to happen.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

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Hey, sorry you had to experience this regurge with the little guy. Sounds like the husbandry was and is on point but i am conflicted on the thawing procedure you use bc i think your freezer to fridge time and duration in the fridge may be inadequate. 3 or 4 hours i don't think is sufficient time to fully thaw out a rat. A mouse maybe, and that's taking into consideration that you still continue to thaw and warm with warm/hot water and the hair dryer. I think you should consider leaving the frozen prey in the fridge alot longer. Maybe even 6 to 8 hours bc usually it's a thawing from freezer to fridge of overnight and then all the other warming procedures. Some people thaw at room temperatures. So, before throwing out all the rats from Repticon try adjusting your thawing procedures first. :gj: Don't worry too much either bc these pythons recover from this sort of thing that is pretty much self limiting. Keep your husbandry on point and you and him will be fine. Lol.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

to check f/t feeders i always squeeze at the hips and the head to check for cold spots, as those are the last parts of the body to thaw out (they're the thickest). maybe next time try thawing in room-temperature water after the fridge stage.

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The chest of a rat needs to be included here bc the rib cage protrudes. So, ultimately this can be deceptive of the true internal temperature of the organs and tissues behind the ribs.

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

The chest of a rat needs to be included here bc the rib cage protrudes. So, ultimately this can be deceptive of the true internal temperature of the organs and tissues behind the ribs.

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i appreciate your input. thank you! [emoji3]

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Hey, sorry you had to experience this regurge with the little guy. Sounds like the husbandry was and is on point but i am conflicted on the thawing procedure you use bc i think your freezer to fridge time and duration in the fridge may be inadequate. 3 or 4 hours i don't think is sufficient time to fully thaw out a rat. A mouse maybe, and that's taking into consideration that you still continue to thaw and warm with warm/hot water and the hair dryer. I think you should consider leaving the frozen prey in the fridge alot longer. Maybe even 6 to 8 hours bc usually it's a thawing from freezer to fridge of overnight and then all the other warming procedures. Some people thaw at room temperatures. So, before throwing out all the rats from Repticon try adjusting your thawing procedures first. :gj: Don't worry too much either bc these pythons recover from this sort of thing that is pretty much self limiting. Keep your husbandry on point and you and him will be fine. Lol.

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Sorry if my previous notes were unclear on the my thawing procedure but I've been taking the F/T out of the freezer in the mornings before work and thawing in theFridge until the early evening (10-12 hours). Then I'll lay it outside the cage (3 hours) and proceed to warm w/ a hairdryer. If I need to make some adjustments to this process, I'm all ears. I appreciate your response!!!!

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

Sorry if my previous notes were unclear on the my thawing procedure but I've been taking the F/T out of the freezer in the mornings before work and thawing in theFridge until the early evening (10-12 hours). Then I'll lay it outside the cage (3 hours) and proceed to warm w/ a hairdryer. If I need to make some adjustments to this process, I'm all ears. I appreciate your response!!!!

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Oh ok. I saw "several hours " and translated it into 3 or 4 hours of fridge time. Then in that case, i would spend more time with the blowdryer on the target areas and maybe even consider the double ziplock bag and hot water prior to the blowdryer.

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Oh ok. I saw "several hours " and translated it into 3 or 4 hours of fridge time. Then in that case, i would spend more time with the blowdryer on the target areas and maybe even consider the double ziplock bag and hot water prior to the blowdryer.

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If it makes sense, I can thaw even longer in the fridge (i.e. put in the fridge the previous night). I just don't know if that's borderline a health concern for the BP.

As for the blow dryer, I usually only dry for 15-20 seconds because I don't want to experience any type of explosion. Not sure how likely this is or how long it takes for this to happen.

I've been trying to hold off involving water but if it's recommended, I'll certainly consider it.

Follow the same guidelines as for human meat.

Don't leave it out at room temperature for over 2 hours, no more than 2-3 days in the fridge, and not more than 6 months in the freezer. - https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal...asics/ct_index

You really should start getting in the habit of warming in a bag in a container of hot tap water. This warms much safer and faster than leaving at room temperature and prevents the possibility of rancid meat. If the rodent gets wet in a water bath you can always spot dry it in paper towels but a damp rodent won't harm anything ;) . Heating with a blow dryer won't cause any problems but leaving it to thaw out of a fridge for 3 hours could.

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Originally Posted by SDA

Follow the same guidelines as for human meat.

Don't leave it out at room temperature for over 2 hours, no more than 2-3 days in the fridge, and not more than 6 months in the freezer. - https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal...asics/ct_index

You really should start getting in the habit of warming in a bag in a container of hot tap water. This warms much safer and faster than leaving at room temperature and prevents the possibility of rancid meat. If the rodent gets wet in a water bath you can always spot dry it in paper towels but a damp rodent won't harm anything ;) . Heating with a blow dryer won't cause any problems but leaving it to thaw out of a fridge for 3 hours could.

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Thanks SDA. This is the type of information that I value from this site.

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

If it makes sense, I can thaw even longer in the fridge (i.e. put in the fridge the previous night). I just don't know if that's borderline a health concern for the BP.

As for the blow dryer, I usually only dry for 15-20 seconds because I don't want to experience any type of explosion. Not sure how likely this is or how long it takes for this to happen.

I've been trying to hold off involving water but if it's recommended, I'll certainly consider it.

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That makes sense for sure but isn't really necessary as the "overnight" being a max of 8 hrs should suffice. Very minimal to no health concern as bp's have extremely strong gastric enzymes of digestion but inadequate tolerance of low, cold prey temperatures are more concerning. When using the blowdryer, it should be a waving type of motion to increase the temperature of prey items. Try increasing the time and surface area covered when using the blowdryer.

Regurgitation Update:

After 2 weeks, I prepared a small mouse (thawed in fridge over night, 30 minutes double zipped locked bag in warm water, dusted w/ Nutribac and finished off w/ hairdryer).

Interestingly enough, I think the sound of the hairdryer peaked my BPs interest and he poked his head out of his hide. I presented the mouse w. hemostats and he struck but missed like he's done so many times in the past. I ended up leaving the mouse in the cage and it was gone in the morning. I've checked several times since and no sign of it, unless it's in his hide which I doubt.

So my question is, should I wait another week and re-introduce a Rat Pup? After speaking w/ someone at PerfectPrey, they thought maybe the regurgitation happened because of the switch from mouse to rat. They also suggested I pick out the smallest Rat Pup in the bag or feed a Rat Fuzzy (which I don't think I can find in any pet stores).

Also wanted to get some clarification on the topic of disturbances, etc.... I know not to handle my BP until 48 hours after feeding but does that mean hands off any changes to the cage (i.e. changing water, small house keeping items). What about general traffic in the area where the enclosure is? We have the BP in our basement where we have young kids that will play. They have no interest in the enclosure / snake but I wasn't sure if the jumping around or noise associated w/ kids can be an issue.

One more thing, should I wait until another feeding to hold and/or remove him for a deep cleaning?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

Also wanted to get some clarification on the topic of disturbances, etc.... I know not to handle my BP until 48 hours after feeding but does that mean hands off any changes to the cage (i.e. changing water, small house keeping items). What about general traffic in the area where the enclosure is? We have the BP in our basement where we have young kids that will play. They have no interest in the enclosure / snake but I wasn't sure if the jumping around or noise associated w/ kids can be an issue.

One more thing, should I wait until another feeding to hold and/or remove him for a deep cleaning?

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congrats on the feed!!!

IMO i don't think those types of general disturbances interfere that much with the beeps digestion. feel free to do any changes or maintenance in the cage. and i don't think traffic is a problem, but jumping around might.

i think you can go ahead and clean the enclosure after 48hrs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

So my question is, should I wait another week and re-introduce a Rat Pup? After speaking w/ someone at PerfectPrey, they thought maybe the regurgitation happened because of the switch from mouse to rat. They also suggested I pick out the smallest Rat Pup in the bag or feed a Rat Fuzzy (which I don't think I can find in any pet stores).

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I would wait two weeks and feed another mouse treated with NutriBAC like you just fed, assuming your BP doesn't regurge again. If the next feeding goes ok I would wait ten days and offer another treated slightly larger mouse. Wait ten days after that and offer the rat fuzzy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I would wait two weeks and feed another mouse treated with NutriBAC like you just fed, assuming your BP doesn't regurge again. If the next feeding goes ok I would wait ten days and offer another treated slightly larger mouse. Wait ten days after that and offer the rat fuzzy.

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This sounds like solid advice. Is nutribac like a supplement to aid in building back up gut flora or something?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I would wait two weeks and feed another mouse treated with NutriBAC like you just fed, assuming your BP doesn't regurge again. If the next feeding goes ok I would wait ten days and offer another treated slightly larger mouse. Wait ten days after that and offer the rat fuzzy.

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I was wondering about the continued use of the NutriBAC because the directions fail to mention how long to use it for.

So I'll continue w/ another small mouse and bump up to maybe a medium/large mouse.

As for the rat fuzzy, since I only have rat pups, is it worth trying to find one online since they are not regularly found in stores?

And is it ok to hold my BP or should I wait until all these steps are finished?

I mean probiotic supplements in us people are found to be a decent way to maintain healthy digestion so I wonder, is feeding a diet consisting of only frozen/thawed rats limiting the gut flora of a snake? I would love to know about any long term supplementing of this in ball pythons and if there is any benefit. Don't mean to slightly change the post here but I think this question might be a good one to know regurgitation or not.

Edit: just want to add I would assume if you get reptuable f/t rodents you don't have to worry about supplimenting because the rat breeder will feed the rat a nutrient rich diet which will translate to the snake. Just curious about any long term studies on probiotics in snakes outside of using it after a regurg or antibiotics.

NutriBAC is a powdered reptile probiotic. A healthy critter shouldn't need it, but one that has just regurgitated, been subjected to stress due to being shipped, or received antibiotics would benefit from it.

If you can't find a rat fuzzy then weigh the pups and offer the smallest one when the time comes to convert him.

I was pleasantly surprised to see Fred weigh has much as he did after several weeks of not eating up until his small mouse. He actually gained weight (although a poop should be coming soon). Never the less, it was still good to see and hold him briefly while I attended to his enclosure. I think it's been close to a month since the last time I held him. Still as docile as ever :)

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...90283bbd70.jpg


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***** Update *****

So I followed all of the wonderful and informative instructions on my BP's regurgitation situation. My BP gladly took all the mice (2 smalls and one large) over a several week period. This was the 1st time he's ever been able to strike and take the meal. Usually I've had to drop the prey and come back the next day. I guess he was extremely hungry from all of the spaced out feedings :)

Well last night was my 1st attempt at giving him a rat pup (since his regurgitated rat pup experience). I weighed all the pups and found the smallest one (24g). For reference, my BP is approx 250-260 grams but the rat pup still looked large in comparison to my BP's head and neck. I went through the thawing process (overnight in the fridge, bagged and submerged in hot water for almost an hour and a hairdryer to finish off. As soon as the hairdryer was turned on, my BPs head came out of the hide. I presented the prey on tongs and he seemed interested but he never struck. I decided to leave the prey in his cage as I've done successfully in the past. This morning I went downstairs to check on him and he was laying on top of his hide, head cocked w/ the rat pup partially pulled into the entrance of his hide. I wasn't sure what to do because I wasn't sure if he was planning to eat the prey or if it would continue to lay there the rest of the day. I decided to pull it out and risk getting tagged ;)

So what to do now? I still think the initial regurgitation happened because of the change in prey. Should I keep trying w/ the rat pups and if so when should I try next? Or should I continue w/ large mice.

Also one thing to note...this weekend the enclosure was wrapped in a blanket because of the low temps outside. The ambients still remained around 76-77 degrees. Just wanted to point out any changes that may have impacted the feeding.

Please help!!1

Let him wait a week and then offer another rat pup. If you put him back on mice it'll be that much harder to convert him later.

If you have mice you can try scenting the rat pup with one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Let him wait a week and then offer another rat pup. If you put him back on mice it'll be that much harder to convert him later.

If you have mice you can try scenting the rat pup with one.

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Tried feeding again tonight, thawing the rat pup in the same bag as mouse and rubbing the two together....

As soon as a I turned on the hairdryer, my BP started poking his head out of his hide. I presented the pup and he struck while inside his hide but missed. His head would follow the pup wherever I moved it. I reheated the pup about 5-6 times and each time he seemed interested but never struck. I decided to let the pup in the cage and come back the next morning to see if it's gone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ckuhn003

Tried feeding again tonight, thawing the rat pup in the same bag as mouse and rubbing the two together....

As soon as a I turned on the hairdryer, my BP started poking his head out of his hide. I presented the pup and he struck while inside his hide but missed. His head would follow the pup wherever I moved it. I reheated the pup about 5-6 times and each time he seemed interested but never struck. I decided to let the pup in the cage and come back the next morning to see if it's gone.

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Well hope things work out .... normally if there's the slightest bit of interest they will take or eventually .... just as I'm about to give up I try again and they take it , sometimes a few minutes break - then the lights down or off and try again and BAM !!

In fact , the only time I give up is if there is no reaction or interest AT ALL then it's usually due to them going into shed or something ..


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