Water snakes and Belly Heat :/

So...another thread. :oops: I've seen several Water snake ads and thought I'd look more into it so I looked up caresheets. I cant find very much info and what I can find seems to differ greatly. Does anyone know a good caresheet or own Water snakes?

Also I have spoken to a few garter snake owners who dont use belly heat with their snakes and they breed them and say the snakes digest fine. I was wondering if this is actually okay? With the use of an overheat heat sorce like a red bulb I mean. Just wondering as I cant find anything to really awnser these questions on internet! Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

So...another thread. :oops: I've seen several Water snake ads and thought I'd look more into it so I looked up caresheets. I cant find very much info and what I can find seems to differ greatly. Does anyone know a good caresheet or own Water snakes?

Also I have spoken to a few garter snake owners who dont use belly heat with their snakes and they breed them and say the snakes digest fine. I was wondering if this is actually okay? With the use of an overheat heat sorce like a red bulb I mean. Just wondering as I cant find anything to really awnser these questions on internet! Thanks :)

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I'm sure you can find some decent care sheets for water snakes(Nerodia) if you google around. Not super popular keepers but they do have a niche following so you could probably find some captive born animals without much trouble. The biggest mistake people tend to make keeping them is not offering enough dry land area which can lead to blister and rot issues. It's fine to have a large water area(headache keeping clean, mind) but your snake also needs a fair bit of land. They usually do better kept in a mostly dry setup with just a larger water dish/tub that you can easily remove and clean.

The purpose of heat sources is to help reach target temperatures. If your house ambient temps match up with their natural ranges there's not really a need for additional heating and using too much can even lead to discomfort or death from overheating - why thermostats are so highly recommended. Some north american colubrids do perfectly fine kept without additional heat as long as your house temps range in the mid to upper 70s. Ambients in my reptile room range from 76(early morning) to 82(mid afternoon) in the summer months. I only use additional heat on a few of my animals from warmer climates.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

So...another thread. :oops: I've seen several Water snake ads and thought I'd look more into it so I looked up caresheets. I cant find very much info and what I can find seems to differ greatly. Does anyone know a good caresheet or own Water snakes?

Also I have spoken to a few garter snake owners who dont use belly heat with their snakes and they breed them and say the snakes digest fine. I was wondering if this is actually okay? With the use of an overheat heat sorce like a red bulb I mean. Just wondering as I cant find anything to really awnser these questions on internet! Thanks :)

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Most colubrids have very similar care requirements and the vast majority will do well with an ambient of around 73-76 F and a hot spot at 85 F. In the past, I used to keep kingsnakes at room temperature and feed them once a week. They always accepted food and appeared to digest just fine. I never had a regurgitation or health issue of any kind. They are a pretty robust snake family.

That said, I feel they greatly benefit from a warm spot. After providing one, I notice my California kingsnakes hug it quite often with an ambient of 75 F, particularly after eating. It does not matter if the hot spot is achieved by a UTH (belly heat) or an overhead heat lamp/CHE. There is nothing special about belly heat, the snake simply needs a source of heat to assist in thermoregulation.

As for water snakes, despite their name and propensity to eat fish, they don't need a huge source of it. Captive water snakes will do just fine with a clean water dish of a size that they can soak in if they wish (per John1982's suggestion). Most keepers I know use the same substrates you would for other reptiles (aspen, reptile carpet, etc.). Personally, I think cypress mulch is probably the best choice. For feeding, the best success seems to come from feeding live fish and amphibians supplemented with mice (frozen or live).

Thanks for your replys! My house averages around 75 and drops into the high 60's at night. If you dont mind me asking, which animals do you not use additional heat with?

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

Thanks for your replys! My house averages around 75 and drops into the high 60's at night. If you dont mind me asking, which animals do you not use additional heat with?

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In summer months I don't use additional heat for the indigo, mussurana, false water cobras, corns, bulls, pines, garters, carpet pythons, timor pythons or papuan python. Basically, the only snakes in my reptile room who have additional heat during the summer are the black-headed pythons. There's about a 5-6 degree difference in temperature from the floor to the ceiling, in additional to the 5-6 degree swing I get in a 24 hour period, in my reptile room. I use this to position animals accordingly - warmer loving species are higher up and less heat tolerant animals are closer to the floor. I also offer UVB lights to the garters, which gives them a slightly warmer basking option, but all the others simply get a natural photoperiod from south and west facing windows.

I love Falsies :P You have a very diverse collection!

Also you said you keep Indigos? How are their temperments?

Belly heat is not a requirement for any snake, the only direction snakes gain heat faster is through their backs, it's why species from cooler areas have darker coloration on their backs compared to their stomachs so they can gain heat faster from the sun. The belly heat requirement myth comes from heat pads/heat tape being really easy to use, they advise another keeper to use them, then so on so forth it becomes the only way because everyone wants to think they are right.

Water snakes do well when they aren't allowed to be perpetually wet, in fact they don't really seem to NEED a large water bowl however that aspect is kinda what makes them cool in my experience. My friend keeps his in screen top aquariums with CHE heating and a UVB hood, while rodent eating species don't need UVB there is a little bit of contradictory evidence showing that snakes that don't primarily eat mice (IE garters, green snakes, water snakes) do benefit from that UVB. These species also happen to be much more avid baskers in the wild than most rodent eating species.

How complex you want to make a setup is going to be up to your own experience level and ambition. I saw one at an aquarium that was basically a spectacular palladarium with rocks and plants it was really cool but that's gonna be outside the scope of many folks.

Feeding these guys is also a special requirement. Many people purchase whole fish, fish fillets, etc, add the necessary supplements (calcium, vitamins etc) and blend it up and create jello with it. Type in "fish jello for snakes" and go to the thamnophis forum that shows up and read up on it. These snakes (not the green snake as it's an insectivore) can be raised on mice only diets and many do however the really avid keepers seem to feel as if too many rodents will cause similar issues with these species as feeding too many rodents to say a bearded dragon in terms of liver issues from too much fat.

In terms of finding CB specimens, facebook groups dedicated to garters, water snakes and the like are going to be the place to find breeders and other advice.

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

Belly heat is not a requirement for any snake, the only direction snakes gain heat faster is through their backs, it's why species from cooler areas have darker coloration on their backs compared to their stomachs so they can gain heat faster from the sun. The belly heat requirement myth comes from heat pads/heat tape being really easy to use, they advise another keeper to use them, then so on so forth it becomes the only way because everyone wants to think they are right.

Water snakes do well when they aren't allowed to be perpetually wet, in fact they don't really seem to NEED a large water bowl however that aspect is kinda what makes them cool in my experience. My friend keeps his in screen top aquariums with CHE heating and a UVB hood, while rodent eating species don't need UVB there is a little bit of contradictory evidence showing that snakes that don't primarily eat mice (IE garters, green snakes, water snakes) do benefit from that UVB. These species also happen to be much more avid baskers in the wild than most rodent eating species.

How complex you want to make a setup is going to be up to your own experience level and ambition. I saw one at an aquarium that was basically a spectacular palladarium with rocks and plants it was really cool but that's gonna be outside the scope of many folks.

Feeding these guys is also a special requirement. Many people purchase whole fish, fish fillets, etc, add the necessary supplements (calcium, vitamins etc) and blend it up and create jello with it. Type in "fish jello for snakes" and go to the thamnophis forum that shows up and read up on it. These snakes (not the green snake as it's an insectivore) can be raised on mice only diets and many do however the really avid keepers seem to feel as if too many rodents will cause similar issues with these species as feeding too many rodents to say a bearded dragon in terms of liver issues from too much fat.

In terms of finding CB specimens, facebook groups dedicated to garters, water snakes and the like are going to be the place to find breeders and other advice.

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Thank you! That really clears it up :) I was actually reading the Diy garter diet thread and saw that they had mentioned using it for water snakes. It didn't look terribly complicated

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

Thank you! That really clears it up :) I was actually reading the Diy garter diet thread and saw that they had mentioned using it for water snakes. It didn't look terribly complicated

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It doesn't. You just buy frozen fish as you see it go on sale, keep it in the fridge till you need to make the next batch of jello, I imagine that helps keep the cost down to an extent. If you were going to get fresh fillets every time it needed to eat they would be obnoxiously expensive.

The only problem I would see would be it being a little messy once it got warm, although if the snake took it soon after it was offered I dont think it would be a problem.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

The only problem I would see would be it being a little messy once it got warm, although if the snake took it soon after it was offered I dont think it would be a problem.

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You should also be able to find whole fish in most aquarium/reptile type stores that sell frozen food. I buy "San Francisco Bay Brand, Sally's Silversides" at my local petsmart for about $15 a bag.

I feed pinkies, worms, fish filets (salmon, yellow perch, tilapia, etc), and silversides to my garters. No gelatin involved. It's not particularly expensive, just cut off and defrost what you need from the frozen fish and buy worms every couple weeks. They don't really like the silversides or pinkies too much, but they'll eat them and it's good for them to have whole things vs filets.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

The only problem I would see would be it being a little messy once it got warm, although if the snake took it soon after it was offered I dont think it would be a problem.

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I've had water snakes I've caught eat in the bucket I caught them in right after capture. Leaving food items unattended isn't likely to be a problem with water snakes.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

Also you said you keep Indigos? How are their temperments?

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If you are interested in colubrids with no particular species in mind, of all the snakes I keep, the indigos are hands down my favorite. Eastern indigos in particular are something of a jewel in the reptile world, but required some extra effort to get a hold of typically. Texas indigos are cheaper and easier to come by and offer you probably 90% the same animal.

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Originally Posted by Regius_049

If you are interested in colubrids with no particular species in mind, of all the snakes I keep, the indigos are hands down my favorite. Eastern indigos in particular are something of a jewel in the reptile world, but required some extra effort to get a hold of typically. Texas indigos are cheaper and easier to come by and offer you probably 90% the same animal.

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I might look into them a bit more but they look like they get pretty big

They also have the potential to give you one of the gnarlier bites you can receive from a nonvenomous snake if you get a feeding response latch. These aren't constrictors. They rely on strength of body and jaw to overpower their prey. I currently just keep a female mexican indigo(D. m. rubidus) and am still seeking an unrelated male. She's a little over a year old, in the 4 foot range, and really just starting to come into her own. A complete sweetheart to handle but she comes at food fast and with a single minded purpose that's a bit awe inspiring, haha. She also routinely rips the heads off quail and spills the guts of rodents. Fish and snakes, with their scaley protection, hold up the best but I've also seen a video of a black tail cribo literally twisting/ripping the head off a prey snake(smaller cribo if memory serves) in the wild. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of a big adult male's feeding bite.

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Originally Posted by John1982

They also have the potential to give you one of the gnarlier bites you can receive from a nonvenomous snake if you get a feeding response latch. These aren't constrictors. They rely on strength of body and jaw to overpower their prey. I currently just keep a female mexican indigo(D. m. rubidus) and am still seeking an unrelated male. She's a little over a year old, in the 4 foot range, and really just starting to come into her own. A complete sweetheart to handle but she comes at food fast and with a single minded purpose that's a bit awe inspiring, haha. She also routinely rips the heads off quail and spills the guts of rodents. Fish and snakes, with their scaley protection, hold up the best but I've also seen a video of a black tail cribo literally twisting/ripping the head off a prey snake(smaller cribo if memory serves) in the wild. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of a big adult male's feeding bite.

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Yikes :O

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Originally Posted by Regius_049

If you are interested in colubrids with no particular species in mind, of all the snakes I keep, the indigos are hands down my favorite. Eastern indigos in particular are something of a jewel in the reptile world, but required some extra effort to get a hold of typically. Texas indigos are cheaper and easier to come by and offer you probably 90% the same animal.

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Absolute jewel! I'm kinda of curious if anyone has kept more than one subspecies of Indigo if there is an actual difference in temperament from the others to the Easterns or if the opinion of the Easterns is maybe skewed because of the "Holy crap it's an EASTERN INDIGO" effect.

So I just thought of something. I've been told that Ball Pythons need Belly Heat? I just wanted to see if this is true

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

So I just thought of something. I've been told that Ball Pythons need Belly Heat? I just wanted to see if this is true

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Not true. I have a large collection of balls that I keep totally on ambient heat. 84-88 degrees.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

So I just thought of something. I've been told that Ball Pythons need Belly Heat? I just wanted to see if this is true

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Not true. I have a large collection of balls that I keep totally on ambient heat. 84-88 degrees.

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it's not true, they just need enough heat to properly digest. the easiest way to achieve proper hot-spot temps is with belly heat (UTH), but it's not the only way to accomplish a proper hot-spot temp, like JodanOrNoDan mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

it's not true, they just need enough heat to properly digest. the easiest way to achieve proper hot-spot temps is with belly heat (UTH), but it's not the only way to accomplish a proper hot-spot temp, like JodanOrNoDan mentioned above.

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Thanks! Also,I wanted to say I love the name you chose for your pied boy :P

Also...I have a thermostat(the Hydrofarm Jumpstart) and I cant get it to stay on. It keeps shutting off :/ Any insight would be good as I cannot find anything online to help

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

Also...I have a thermostat(the Hydrofarm Jumpstart) and I cant get it to stay on. It keeps shutting off :/ Any insight would be good as I cannot find anything online to help

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turning off as in losing power completely, or turning off as in it's reached its targeted temperature and it cuts power to the UTH?

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

turning off as in losing power completely, or turning off as in it's reached its targeted temperature and it cuts power to the UTH?

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As in that it's reached its target temp. Basicly the small red light turns off. Does that turn its heat off or is it still outputting heat? Im asking because its on a glass tank and when i feel the inside it dosent feel warm at all

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

As in that it's reached its target temp. Basicly the small red light turns off. Does that turn its heat off or is it still outputting heat? Im asking because its on a glass tank and when i feel the inside it dosent feel warm at all

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it is stopping any power output to the device that's connected to it, so yes the heat is turned off. those thermostats operate in an on/off style: full power or no power, with a 2° ∆ (delta; this means the device waits for the temperature to be 2° above or below the target temp before switching off/on.).

you might need to up the temperature set on the thermostat. what's the temperature reading at the bottom of the enclosure above the UTH?

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

it is stopping any power output to the device that's connected to it, so yes the heat is turned off. those thermostats operate in an on/off style: full power or no power, with a 2° ∆ (delta; this means the device waits for the temperature to be 2° above or below the target temp before switching off/on.).

you might need to up the temperature set on the thermostat. what's the temperature reading at the bottom of the enclosure above the UTH?

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I'll have to get back to you on that. Im not at home right now and all my heating things are shut off. Right now I dont have a probed thermometer just an Accurite thermometer that has the humidity and air temp

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

I'll have to get back to you on that. Im not at home right now and all my heating things are shut off. Right now I dont have a probed thermometer just an Accurite thermometer that has the humidity and air temp

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that's okay. i'd recommend getting a probed thermometer or an infrared temperature gun, otherwise you're just guessing your hotspot temperature (no beuno!)

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

that's okay. i'd recommend getting a probed thermometer or an infrared temperature gun, otherwise you're just guessing your hotspot temperature (no beuno!)

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Okay,Ill do that :) Oh, and its hooked up to a 1-5 gallon zoomed heat mat

So, another question!(Thanks for being so patient!) If I decide on a Ball Python(Hypothetical as I am still doing research to see whats best for me!) I would need to raise my air temp, which I cannot do in a tub(Correct me if Im wrong) and people say tanks are not good for Beeps. Even if I got a Ap cage than it would still be too big for a baby bp. So I was wondering if covering the top of the tank(a 10 gal) with alluminm tap(tape on outside of screen top) and leaving a space just big enough for a red heat bulb would work?

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

So, another question!(Thanks for being so patient!) If I decide on a Ball Python(Hypothetical as I am still doing research to see whats best for me!) I would need to raise my air temp, which I cannot do in a tub(Correct me if Im wrong) and people say tanks are not good for Beeps. Even if I got a Ap cage than it would still be too big for a baby bp. So I was wondering if covering the top of the tank(a 10 gal) with alluminm tap(tape on outside of screen top) and leaving a space just big enough for a red heat bulb would work?

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Tanks are fine.

I wanted to ask something. I know people say you can use dollar store plants for snakes. I bought a kind of decoration that has no glitter or anything on it,just leaves. I was told that this was okay to use. Can anybody second that? The plant decoration thing was bought at a local shopko

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

Absolute jewel! I'm kinda of curious if anyone has kept more than one subspecies of Indigo if there is an actual difference in temperament from the others to the Easterns or if the opinion of the Easterns is maybe skewed because of the "Holy crap it's an EASTERN INDIGO" effect.

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I've dealt with 3 drymarchon species: eastern indigos, texas indigos, and black tail cribos. The easterns, as will surprise no one, always get the biggest reaction. In my experience, they have all behaved more or less the same with some slight variances between individuals. However, I have only personally kept and handled maybe 20 drymarchon specimens. Larger breeders have noted to me that texas indigos are slightly more high strung than easterns and than yellow-tail cribos are the most aggressive of the group. All that said, I am pretty confident you would get the "indigo experience" from really any of the species. In some cases, with "black phase" eastern indigos, it can actually be quite hard to tell them apart from a texas indigo. Red phase indigos however are pretty unmistakable.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

I wanted to ask something. I know people say you can use dollar store plants for snakes. I bought a kind of decoration that has no glitter or anything on it,just leaves. I was told that this was okay to use. Can anybody second that? The plant decoration thing was bought at a local shopko

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I see no reason you can't use fake plants or really any decor with ball pythons. They won't care if it looks realistic or not.