Spider with very little "wobble"

So I've been watching alot of videos and reading a lot on the "wobble". So far I've not noticed hardly any, not even when she feeds. Some places I've read said it could act up more as they grow older and some say that it may stay very minimal. Just wondering what you guys/girls think. Moving her up to rat fuzzy next feeding as she pounded down 2 hoppers. The most I've noticed was this inverted swallowing like she got disoriented.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...cf61cdebe3.jpg

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Wobble is the reason I'll never own a spider, probably no champagne or woma either.

I've seen absolute train wrecks, corkscrewing for long periods of time, can't even eat type wobble and then I've seen very mild wobble where the only noticeable thing is that they miss a lot when striking. You never know what you're going to get since a bp with an almost not even there wobble can produce a baby with a severe wobble and vice versa. I've never heard that it gets worse with age though. I have heard that stress will make the wobble get really bad, don't know how true that is.

I don't like when I hear people get scared about spider wobble. Stress can cause wobble to be more noticeable but as they get older they adjust to it and lead perfectly normal lives. I would never consider my baby damaged goods because he has moderate wobble.

BTW ine eats all sorts of strange directions and never has any issues.

It all just depends on the animal. Some will have no wobble as babies then get one when they are older and some will have it as babies and grow out of it, some will show little to no wobble their whole lives. It all depends. Severe wobbles aren't super common though so I really wouldn't worry about that. Yeah they are a big quirky but for the most part they live normal lives and eat just fine.

My girl has only shown a wobble one feeding when she got really excited, but the most it did was cause her to miss her first strike and have to try again.

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oh im by no means scared, i love her to pieces, i know its nothing thats going to harm her. would just be something that might freak someone out that didn't know any better about the gene. her feeding strike is actually more accurate than my "normal" girl as it took her 3 strike last feeding and my spider nailed it first strike(both hoppers). Sorry if my OP came off as sounding scared of the wobble, was basically wondering how others felt about it and how their spiders progressed over the years.

We hanging out now going through the forum lolhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...24e03f306e.jpg

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I have 3 spider combos, bumble bee, killer bee and disco bee. They pretty much display all three levels of wobble from non existent to severe. Not one of them is there any reason not to have as a pet. On average they are my best eaters and most human tolerant or what some people would call tame. They all live great lives or I wouldn't own one, why would anyone want an animal that seems to be suffering? There has to be 100s of thousands of spiders out there and anyone that owns one will tell you they live perfectly normal lives with or without wobble. Yet people still get scared off and miss out on owning one of the best morphs out there. It's a shame a video of one of the most extreme cases of wobble gets out there and every person that's never owned a spider thinks that's normal and vows to never own one, it's kind of ridiculous actually. There is no good reason to not own a spider morph unless it's personal opinion that you don't like the look. The fear of wobble should not stop people from enjoying this great morph. If your that worried about if check out the snake in person before you make a decision and if it isn't doing anything crazy, you'll be fine, a little excitement at feeding time may make them show a little but it doesn't affect the snake negatively in any way.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

On average they are my best eaters and most human tolerant or what some people would call tame.

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I've had a few spiders/spider combos and I've noticed this trend as well. Despite their flaws, they always seem to be great eaters and very, very "friendly". They don't really even ball up as much as your typical BP would, are extremely curious when they're outside of their enclosures, and I've never, ever had one strike at me. Perhaps this is a link in their neuro issues. In any case, I don't see how they would make bad pets. They eat, they poop, they do BPs things. They just do them a little bit goofier than your average snake.

I think they're wonderful personally. They are one of my favorite morphs.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

There has to be 100s of thousands of spiders out there and anyone that owns one will tell you they live perfectly normal lives with or without wobble. Yet people still get scared off and miss out on owning one of the best morphs out there. It's a shame a video of one of the most extreme cases of wobble gets out there and every person that's never owned a spider thinks that's normal and vows to never own one, it's kind of ridiculous actually. There is no good reason to not own a spider morph unless it's personal opinion that you don't like the look. The fear of wobble should not stop people from enjoying this great morph.

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I normally keep my opinions to myself regarding the morphs with known issues (i.e. spider ball pythons, enigma leopard geckos, etc.), but to say it's ridiculous not to want to own one or there is no good reason is pretty absurd. There are a bazillion ball python morphs out there without known issues you could pick from with good temperament, feeding response, or whatever features you might desire in a ball python. People are picking a spider for one reason only: the aesthetic. I come from a background in dog breeding and responsible breeders there go through a great deal of trouble to select for dogs with good temperament, OFA graded hips, CERF eye certifications, etc. In effect, breeding for health. No reputable breeder would breed a dog with bad hips/eyes just because it "looks nice". Now I own a variety of reptile morphs within my personal collection from ball pythons to tokay geckos, but I have mixed feelings on them. One of my main concerns is that reptiles move more and more towards being a major source of profit via trying to create newer and better morphs and while often this encourages new blood to enter the hobby (which is great), a slow but certain departure from health and well-being starts often starts to occur. A prime example of this is the current issues facing the eastern indigo snake. People bred snakes together with unknown lineages and slowly, but surely, the inbreeding began to take its toll. Many big breeders however still deny that it is an issue. The standard justification helping their cause is a set of vocal individuals saying some permutation of "well my snake from breeder x does just fine".

It kind of perplexes me the lengths people to make their enclosures or husbandry "perfect" in regards to ideal humidity, prey size, or whatever. If humidity goes above ~ 70% there is a thread on how to make it exactly 60% for example. To have such an obsession of these (often inconsequential) details on making everything perfect then buy a snake with a known neurological defect? I understand if you rescue the snake or take from a friend who can't care for it, but to actually go out and buy one is another story. If I were to propose using an animal with known neurological issues in a breeding program to a group of individuals outside what I will call "the spider ball python debate" just because I liked his/her aesthetics, I would get concerns or push-back with almost near certainty. I am not going to speculate on a ball python's "happiness", but to say it has no effect on the animals welfare is likely naive. There is actually paper published in the journal of exotic pet medicine on the topic By Rose et al. The authors note that "side-to side head tremors, incoordination, erratic corkscrewing of the head and neck, inhibited righting reflex, torticollis (neck spasms), poor muscle tone, and loose grip with the tail” have all been observed as issues associated with the spider gene and its "wobble". They go on to say that most scientists versed in animal welfare perceived a moderate to high welfare impact from the disorder due to additional stress and impaired ability to perform certain species specific behaviors such as feeding and proper locomotion.

You are right that within a captive setting most spider ball pythons and other morphs with known issues "do just fine" and you are certainly entitled to your opinion and to own whatever ball pythons you wish, but breeding snakes with known issues is not something I can encourage.

Every time the "spider issue" comes up, someone wants to make the comparison back to bad dog breeding habits. While I get the point trying to be made - and have considered it myself in the past - I'm not sure I can bring myself to take it seriously.

Defects in dogs bring about known, painful, and life-shortening harm to the animal. I have German Shepherds, and the amount of people that buy a dog without getting their lineages checked for hip problems is astounding. A dog like a GSD needs interaction and exercise and stimulation, and it's easy to make the argument that one born with hip defects will not live a fulfilling life, especially if that life-span is drastically shortened.

The same can't be said for a snake. We keep these animals in small, contained cages. They do not require interaction or stimulation beyond being fed regularly. Most of the time they're curled up in one spot. They live the same amount of time another snake would. Their lives are not shortened, their interaction is not changed, they eat, they poop, they live their lives as any other snake would.

I'm just not buying it. If there's a better comparison out there, I'm all for hearing it. But being that snakes require so little in the way of care and interaction is most likely why we don't see the same stipulations and lineage tracking as we do around dogs. I'm not sure we ever will... and the "spider issue" is going to be left to personal preference and opinion.

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Originally Posted by Regius_049

I normally keep my opinions to myself regarding the morphs with known issues (i.e. spider ball pythons, enigma leopard geckos, etc.), but to say it's ridiculous not to want to own one or there is no good reason is pretty absurd. There are a bazillion ball python morphs out there without known issues you could pick from with good temperament, feeding response, or whatever features you might desire in a ball python. People are picking a spider for one reason only: the aesthetic. I come from a background in dog breeding and responsible breeders there go through a great deal of trouble to select for dogs with good temperament, OFA graded hips, CERF eye certifications, etc. In effect, breeding for health. No reputable breeder would breed a dog with bad hips/eyes just because it "looks nice". Now I own a variety of reptile morphs within my personal collection from ball pythons to tokay geckos, but I have mixed feelings on them. One of my main concerns is that reptiles move more and more towards being a major source of profit via trying to create newer and better morphs and while often this encourages new blood to enter the hobby (which is great), a slow but certain departure from health and well-being starts often starts to occur. A prime example of this is the current issues facing the eastern indigo snake. People bred snakes together with unknown lineages and slowly, but surely, the inbreeding began to take its toll. Many big breeders however still deny that it is an issue. The standard justification helping their cause is a set of vocal individuals saying some permutation of "well my snake from breeder x does just fine".

It kind of perplexes me the lengths people to make their enclosures or husbandry "perfect" in regards to ideal humidity, prey size, or whatever. If humidity goes above ~ 70% there is a thread on how to make it exactly 60% for example. To have such an obsession of these (often inconsequential) details on making everything perfect then buy a snake with a known neurological defect? I understand if you rescue the snake or take from a friend who can't care for it, but to actually go out and buy one is another story. If I were to propose using an animal with known neurological issues in a breeding program to a group of individuals outside what I will call "the spider ball python debate" just because I liked his/her aesthetics, I would get concerns or push-back with almost near certainty. I am not going to speculate on a ball python's "happiness", but to say it has no effect on the animals welfare is likely naive. There is actually paper published in the journal of exotic pet medicine on the topic By Rose et al. The authors note that "side-to side head tremors, incoordination, erratic corkscrewing of the head and neck, inhibited righting reflex, torticollis (neck spasms), poor muscle tone, and loose grip with the tail” have all been observed as issues associated with the spider gene and its "wobble". They go on to say that most scientists versed in animal welfare perceived a moderate to high welfare impact from the disorder due to additional stress and impaired ability to perform certain species specific behaviors such as feeding and proper locomotion.

You are right that within a captive setting most spider ball pythons and other morphs with known issues "do just fine" and you are certainly entitled to your opinion and to own whatever ball pythons you wish, but breeding snakes with known issues is not something I can encourage.

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The only thing I can say is that I should of been more clear on what I think is ridiculous, not to make an educated decision that you don't choose to own a spider but to choose not to own one because you saw a video on YouTube that shows one of the most extreme cases and then assume all spiders are like that so you vow never to own one. That is what's ridiculous imo.

Spider genetic "defects" have ZERO impact on their health and longevity. Taking your dog example, brachiocephalic dogs have insane health issues relating to a genetic breeding program that produced these dogs so that they only "look nice". Same with hairless dogs, giant sized dogs, and long haired dogs.

I will put my spider up against any ball python for feeding, temperament, health, and longevity. Nobody should bash something they know nothing about simply because they read or saw it somewhere that uneducated people assume it is a defect and state as fact. I bought my snake because it was beautiful, calm, and a price I could afford. I would happily take a normal over a morph any day, I just happen to own a spider which has taught just how wonderful and amazing this morph truly is.

By your logic breeding any animal is careless because breeding in itself produces unwanted genetics that evolution naturally would have weeded out. Ignorance of something is no excuse to pass judgement.

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Originally Posted by SDA

Spider genetic "defects" have ZERO impact on their health and longevity. Taking your dog example, brachiocephalic dogs have insane health issues relating to a genetic breeding program that produced these dogs so that they only "look nice". Same with hairless dogs, giant sized dogs, and long haired dogs.

I will put my spider up against any ball python for feeding, temperament, health, and longevity. Nobody should bash something they know nothing about simply because they read or saw it somewhere that uneducated people assume it is a defect and state as fact. I bought my snake because it was beautiful, calm, and a price I could afford. I would happily take a normal over a morph any day, I just happen to own a spider which has taught just how wonderful and amazing this morph truly is.

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Honestly, I am genuinely happy you love your spider ball python, I really am, but you are not being objective here. Veterinarians have described the wobble condition as "indicative of a neurological disorder" and indeed it mirrors symptoms of diseases that affect the CNS, albeit to a lesser extent. More specifically, our best understanding is that during embryonic development the spider gene causes a abnormality in the neural crest causing cells that originate from it (skin cells and neural cells) to migrate and position themselves improperly, thus you see some degree of pattern change alongside the "wobble". This, by any clinical measure, is an undesirable health problem. You can call it an abnormality, a glitch, irregularity, or "defect", but it is not a positive outcome. I am puzzled as to how you think this is an "uneducated" conclusion.

I suppose there is beauty in imperfection and I have seen some breeders note that different morphs/color variations appear to affect temperament (I think BHB did a little piece on it), but I think it is a stretch to claim that one morph is more "wonderful or amazing" than another by any metric other than aesthetics. Everyone's personal snakes are better than someone else's to them, but if given a large enough sample size, I would be very surprised if morphs behaved like anything other than different looking normals outside known genetic issues like the one we are debating. I will concede that it is theoretically possible that the neural abnormality in the spider ball python could potentially make them calmer, but within ball pythons, you would be just as likely to get calmness/tameness in another snake. It is one the reasons they are such popular pets.

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Originally Posted by SDA

By your logic breeding any animal is careless because breeding in itself produces unwanted genetics that evolution naturally would have weeded out. Ignorance of something is no excuse to pass judgement.

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I see the point you're trying to make here, but you are exaggerating the idea too far. There is a huge difference in trying to breed animals to make a healthier, better animal and just saying "meh, we've already circumvented Darwin anyway so nothing matters". Animals have been bred selectively over time to suit them for captive life, sometimes responsibly, sometimes irresponsibly. However, a neurological disorder does not make them better suited for captive life or a natural, wild life. Based on the way you've phrased your statement, it seems inescapable but to categorize the spider neural abnormality along with any other sort of health issue that may arise as a result of captive breeding. The difference is one is easily preventable and the others are mainly the result of random chance. If another morph has known issues or if a specimen exhibits "poor condition", I would assert that these animals should not be bred either.

People ask for recommendations on, and seek out the elusive "good breeder" when purchasing a snake or any captive animal. Isn't one of the components of that title breeding from healthy stock? It perplexes me to think that again outside this "spider debate" people would recommend or buy from a breeder that breeds any kind of animals together with a neural problem known to be passed on to offspring even if they survived just fine.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I've had a few spiders/spider combos and I've noticed this trend as well. Despite their flaws, they always seem to be great eaters and very, very "friendly". They don't really even ball up as much as your typical BP would, are extremely curious when they're outside of their enclosures, and I've never, ever had one strike at me. Perhaps this is a link in their neuro issues. In any case, I don't see how they would make bad pets. They eat, they poop, they do BPs things. They just do them a little bit goofier than your average snake.

I think they're wonderful personally. They are one of my favorite morphs.

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Interesting . I have a Caramel Albino Spider Royal who has no wobble at all , is extremely friendly and is a fabulous eater !! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...85a65abd31.jpg


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Originally Posted by Regius_049

The authors note that "side-to side head tremors, incoordination, erratic corkscrewing of the head and neck, inhibited righting reflex, torticollis (neck spasms), poor muscle tone, and loose grip with the tail” have all been observed as issues associated with the spider gene and its "wobble". They go on to say that most scientists versed in animal welfare perceived a moderate to high welfare impact from the disorder due to additional stress and impaired ability to perform certain species specific behaviors such as feeding and proper locomotion.

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I'd really like to see test cases on this. I've never seen any of this in any of the spiders I've kept (from regular spiders to bees, etc). I have a vanilla killer bee right now that has a TERRIBLE corkscrew when he gets excited, ex. during feeding time. But he strikes fiercely, is fairly accurate (at least no less than a typical BP), swallows his prey down, evacuates on the regular. When I have him out he grips, he's curious... I see little to no behavioral or physiological differences between him and my plain, normal male BP. I have never seen any behavioral or physiological differences between any spiders I've kept and my normal BPs.

I don't have a large collection, so I think it would be interesting for someone to test this and track the differences, and then document said test cases. I haven't read the article you're referring to... did they do this? Or just paint in broad strokes?

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I'd really like to see test cases on this. I've never seen any of this in any of the spiders I've kept (from regular spiders to bees, etc). I have a vanilla killer bee right now that has a TERRIBLE corkscrew when he gets excited, ex. during feeding time. But he strikes fiercely, is fairly accurate (at least no less than a typical BP), swallows his prey down, evacuates on the regular. When I have him out he grips, he's curious... I see little to no behavioral or physiological differences between him and my plain, normal male BP. I have never seen any behavioral or physiological differences between any spiders I've kept and my normal BPs.

I don't have a large collection, so I think it would be interesting for someone to test this and track the differences, and then document said test cases. I haven't read the article you're referring to... did they do this? Or just paint in broad strokes?

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Note when reading the admission of a alarmingly small sample size and subjective results due to the survey methods used. This was a highly biased and rather unscientific study that started the whole fear of the spider gene.

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One animal welfare respondent stated, "Mild torticollis would still be quite uncomfortable, according to the 'how would that make me feel?' principle."

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https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ns_for_welfare

Wow. So, after reading that article, I'm definitely not convinced. Breeders were contacted for their opinions and observations... and despite all the breeders generally agreeing that quality of life wasn't affected, the welfare scientists STILL concluded that it was.

Based on what evidence?? Their feelings...??

There is a lot of "squishy" language used - words like may and might and perhaps. No hard evidence and no real data.

I would still really like someone to take a large collection and observe the spider gene for a period of time, and document the observations. I'm willing to listen to numbers, but not opinions that can't really be proven... in that case, I'll just stick to my own opinion based on my personal observations.


I think it's interesting to note that the spider gene is HUGELY represented in the BP world, and is a large foundation for many, many, many morphs on the market today. Large breeders can have hundreds of these animals in their collections - and not one of them is saying the condition is detrimental? That can, of course, open the can of worms that many of the big breeders are in it more for the money than the animals, but there are still a great many that are in the business out of passion for the creatures themselves - and while they all agree the spider gene can cause a wobble, none of them have ever said it decreases the welfare of the animal...? (Example that has been brought forward is caramels and kinking, and you don't see thousands of them for sale anymore).

I cannot offer scientific proven research.

But I can offer my own personal experience with Spiders and their combos, as well as my thoughts on the whole thing.

I've had Ball Pythons for around 18 years now. That is nothing compared to some other owners, but it does mean that I've had my fair share of experience. I used to do "rescue" and had quite a few snakes that needed care. Some were worse then others, but they all shared one common factor. When stressed, they wouldn't eat. When sick, they wouldn't eat. Parasites..no eating. I also know that pain and "feeling ill" causes a body stress.

That said, from my own experience as well as a few other peoples, it seems that spider and their combos are overall (of course there are always exceptions) very easy to take care of snakes. As long as the husbandry is correct, they are eager feeders and seem somewhat less shy. Even my hatchlings that display the spider gene are the ones that ate first, ate most, were the easiest to switch to f/t rats and seem remarkably un-afraid. If anything, quite curious. No aggression or defensiveness either.

Could all that be a fluke? I suppose so. My adult female never displayed any discernible wobble, other then missing the rodent during a feeding strike here and there. One hatchling seems to weave a bit more then others, also the one that was first to eat.

Going by my own experience I do not feel that these snakes are in any kind of distress. Over time you do get a "feel" for these snakes and their body language. And Ball Pythons usually stop eating if something bothers them enough.

Spiders and their combos can make wonderful pet snakes. But I also understand if some people want to steer clear. Its a personal choice to make.

People trying to put human emotion to snake actions. Nothing more, nothing less. The only definitive indicator of stress in a bp is if it thrives. If it eats, drinks on its own it is fine.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I don't have a large collection, so I think it would be interesting for someone to test this and track the differences, and then document said test cases. I haven't read the article you're referring to... did they do this? Or just paint in broad strokes?

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Indeed this would be the most objective way to study the gene and it's effects. In truth, any study by an animal welfare science team or by a large breeder is likely biased. One potentially by anthropomorphism and one by economic factors as ladywhipple02 notes. There are good breeders and bad breeders, and I would wager some from each category fall into the pro-spider or anti-spider camp.

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Originally Posted by SDA

This was a highly biased and rather unscientific study that started the whole fear of the spider gene.

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Biased? Quite possible. However, the idea that this study started the "fear of the spider gene" is kind of farfetched. I kind of doubt a great deal of reptile keepers read the journal or would take its claims that seriously, indeed the dismissive attitude shown by you and the others in this thread kind of proves my point. People developed their opinions on the spider gene due a combination of several things: (1) word of mouth, (2) obvious symptoms, and (3) the symptoms similarity to "boogeyman" diseases such as OPMV and IBD. It didn't take a rocket scientist to discern there was neural dysfunction.

All that said, the spider neural abnormality is still, by any clinical measure, a neural disorder and an undesirable health problem. I stand by the fact that if you were again hunting for a pet outside this little debate, no one would be buying an animal with a known neural problem from a breeder who bred it knowing that was a likely outcome.

If you mean other animals when you say "outside this debate" then I beg to differ.

Quality of life. We can all agree that "Pain" lowers it. There are quite a few neurological abnormalities that cause NO pain. Aside from a balance problem. There are quite a few dogs and cats that suffer from such an abnormality, their gait is funny, they fall over at times, yet they are by all means happy go lucky animals and pain free.

Yet, there are many breeds (dogs, cats, horses) that are purposely bred to resemble a certain trait humans like, that have issues (even if not neurological) that affect quality of life.

For example in horses. There is a typical color that people strive for, but in order to get it you risk creating a "lethal white" foal. A foal that is born bright white and cannot live. They appear normal for a few hours or a day, then experience severe pain and eventually die or have to be put down. They cannot pass feces. Yet...breeders still breed with that risk, to get the color they want. Which people want to buy, despite knowing the risk.

Horses with HYPP. Muscle disorder that causes muscle spasms. People bred these horses on purpose, to get those giant muscled up horses. To this day some breeders continue with that gene and with the risk of horses that will keel over and die suddenly, making them dangerous to have around.

And then there are the dogs...

Start with the short faced breeds such as the english bulldogs. I have had 2 of them and I have chosen good breeders. No matter how good the breeder, that breed is plagued by issues that can (and does) greatly affect quality of life. The breathing is compromised and they cannot tolerate heat or over heating. They can't breed without assistance, they can't birth safely without a cesarean. They often have such tight screw tails that they either have to be removed or cause the dog pain and discomfort through out the life. Not to mention the many skin infections around the tight skin rolls. They often "lick the air" because their tail bothers them and they cannot reach it to "scratch the itch" or relieve their pain. The heavy skin folds around their eyes often cause problems with entropian, or they suffer from cherry eye. They are, from a medical standpoint, a mess. Yet, they are one of the most popular dog breeds and come at a high price. Most short faced breeds face quite a few problems that can and do cause pain and compromise quality of life.

Giant breeds that are purposely bred to be even bigger then they should be suffer from a lot of issues. Many compromising length and quality of life.

Tiny breeds that are purposely bred to be even tinier. Huge holes in the skull that won't close, joint issues, bite (teeth) issues, etc etc.

Cats bred purposely to have super short legs, causing them skeletal issues.

I could go on and on.


Does it make ANY of that "alright" ? Nope.

One has to choose where ones own principles and morals lay.

All that said, based on my own research and experiences, I feel that "Spiders" live a normal life and do not seem to be affected greatly by their sometimes apparent imbalance. Based on the fact they readily eat, breed and do not seem stressed (if husbandry is correct) But that is just my opinion and I don't expect others to agree with it.

Point of my message was simply that all over the "pet" world (and even livestock) animals are bred for certain characteristics that humans look for, even if that does not create the healthiest and/or anatomically correct animal.

If someone wants to make sure that there are no "hidden" defects in their BP morph (and some defects could be internal/hidden) then one would have to stick with "normals" only. Of course that would not be a 100% guarantee on health, but it would fit the principle of staying away from genetically "different" animals that were bred that way on purpose.

That said, one must also note that with dogs/horses/livestock it is far harder to establish "quality of life".

A dog will still eat and live in even deplorable conditions (for example, puppy mill)
Most animals will still live whether they are in freezing or hot temperatures, or in less then ideal husbandry for their breed / species.

They may not be happy or healthy, they may have a good quality of life, but they go on...for a long while before perishing due to neglect.

With snakes, particularly Ball Pythons, it is different.

BP that are stressed for which ever reason, health, fear, no privacy, to cold, to hot do NOT do well. They usually will not eat, and they will not thrive.

Therefore it is easier to establish when a BP is not doing well.

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Originally Posted by zina10

One has to choose where ones own principles and morals lay.

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This. Only the individual gets to decide for themselves what is moral for them. There is no moral high ground, no right or wrong. It is a decision based on personal feelings and only applies to the individual.