My Corn Is Struggling with Starvation

So maybe some of you remember my cute little ghost corn... Sora.

A couple months ago I started noticing part of his food being barfed up. I thought perhaps it was a weird poo but when I took it to the vet they confirmed Sora was barfing up his food.

He said that I should decrease the prey size a bit. Or keep downsizing until Sora digests properly.

So for the next month or so I started feeding smaller. Smaller. Still the same thing kept happening. I got a weight scale and got super specific with the weights of the pinkies even.

I returned to the vet and he told me I went too small now. "Far too small. It's odd he won't keep them down. Are you handling him a lot?"

I hardly reach in there any more. I stopped changing his water out everyday to every other day. Change his paper towel bedding even less frequently. I even tried to extend feedings to every other week even.

I haven't touched him as much as I could help... (accidentally bumping him when getting something that wasn't him out or something of the like)

So he said try specifically baby mice at the Fuzzy stage (3-4 grams) no more no less. At that point it got hard to tell what size to give him because he's so skinny. He specifically told me to watch him eat. See how he swallows. Explained how he SHOULD eat and gave me hints to look for...

Well so basically it's like he forgets he's eating it because he stops swallowing it and it's sitting there in his esophagus. Not even in his stomach. So I brought that up.

So then came the questions of where I got the Corn... which breeder. And I explained the little mom/pop pet store I got him from... and he looked at me and said.

"My best guess is that he was born out in the wild and found."

But he's a "Ghost Corn?"

Or, he said he has a birth defect preventing him from swallowing. It's common for animals, even humans, to have very weird mutations or defects due to inbreeding...

Can someone please double check this Vet? In part I'm trying to help my little guy but I don't want there to be "nothing I can do."

But I guess this is a huge heart heavy type of lesson to mind where you're getting your new pet buddy from...


Herp Derp

It's important to really space out feedings, as well as downgrading size, when you're trying to overcome a regurge issue. You need to give them time to rebuild the gut bacteria that aid in digestion and if you feed too big or too often, it can easily become a slippery slope to death. If you're fellow is so weak he's having issues simply swallowing now, you'll probably need a bit of luck if he's to pull through. You should generally skip a meal or two after a regurge before feeding a smaller prey item and then give them plenty of time to digest and see how it goes. If all's well, you can usually get back on a normal routine after a couple of feeds. Since you're now dealing with a chronic regurge issue, you'll want to slowly build back up, keeping meals small and spaced out until you're sure his digestion is able to keep up with the intake. Sounds like your vet was on the right track with downsizing prey but other than that, it doesn't seem like he was very helpful. Wait 2-3 weeks and get some nutribac(probiotic for reptiles) to include with your next feeding. If he gets it down, don't feed again until he(hopefully) poops and/or another 2-3 weeks pass. After that, I'd keep prey small and meals every 10-14 days for a while. Work on getting his digestive system back on track and then you can start rebuilding his strength by slowly increasing prey size and feeding frequency. Make sure you have a proper temperature gradient to aid in digestion.

You can always get a French gauge feeding tube (8 Fr/ch or 2.8 mm), a 5 mL syringe, and a small bag of Carnivore Care. That will keep him nourished til you find a better vet.

I second what John said.


Your vet probably should have had you hold off on feeding for long enough to let the corn's digestive tract recover, then had you feed a small prey item. If you are feeding him right after he's regurging(as in not waiting for a couple weeks), then it's like giving a human a burger right after they barfed from food poisoning. It's coming right back up.

The nutribac stuff is supposed to be really good too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John1982

It's important to really space out feedings, as well as downgrading size, when you're trying to overcome a regurge issue. You need to give them time to rebuild the gut bacteria that aid in digestion and if you feed too big or too often, it can easily become a slippery slope to death. If you're fellow is so weak he's having issues simply swallowing now, you'll probably need a bit of luck if he's to pull through. You should generally skip a meal or two after a regurge before feeding a smaller prey item and then give them plenty of time to digest and see how it goes. If all's well, you can usually get back on a normal routine after a couple of feeds. Since you're now dealing with a chronic regurge issue, you'll want to slowly build back up, keeping meals small and spaced out until you're sure his digestion is able to keep up with the intake. Sounds like your vet was on the right track with downsizing prey but other than that, it doesn't seem like he was very helpful. Wait 2-3 weeks and get some nutribac(probiotic for reptiles) to include with your next feeding. If he gets it down, don't feed again until he(hopefully) poops and/or another 2-3 weeks pass. After that, I'd keep prey small and meals every 10-14 days for a while. Work on getting his digestive system back on track and then you can start rebuilding his strength by slowly increasing prey size and feeding frequency. Make sure you have a proper temperature gradient to aid in digestion.

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Since I got him his poops look more like mini rabbit/deer and never seems all at once.

I'll see how this last one stays down but hopefully he can hang in another couple weeks... he's so skinny though...


Herp Derp

Definitely have the vet show you how to tube-feed the carnivore care. You can mix it with a little more water than the instructions call for to make a slurry, and the extra water will help ensure your snake stays hydrated.

Also has your vet done a fecal test for parasites and crypto? If not I would suggest one ASAP, especially since your snake came from a retailer.

We tried but the tiny sample I could give him from paper towel bedding wasn’t enough. He has a lot of tiny poops. The vet didn’t find this at all odd since most of the presentable evidence came with urates.

Corn snakes are normally hyper so this was supposedly normal.

But since then he’s stopped pooping entirely. He’s not absorbing anything.

Unlike my Ball Python, the Corn is VERY skiddish. For sure. he was absolutely fine up until we moved and after that is when this all started happening.



But small update: I got a type of reptile vitamin stuff that came recommended that I had direct access to. It’s made for boosting appetite but supposedly it’s good for urgent care as well of starving reptiles, including snakes. It’s called Flukers Repti-boost. It came with a syringe.

The Corn peed on me when I was trying to give it to him so I gave up shortly after giving him 2cc


Herp Derp

Can you please take your snake in for a second opinion. I mean, saying that a ghost was 'born in the wild' is a pretty clear indication that this person does NOT deal with snakes on the regular. Also, I hate to be a chicken little, but you're descibing signs similar to infection with Cryptosporidium serpentis... and crypto is seriously bad news. So please, please, please go to a different vet who specializes in reptiles.

Any updates?

I second spacing food and get a fecal regurge can be due to internal parasites especially the ones that keep re-occuring.

When the vet talk about defect how did he establish that? Did he take an x-ray showing a mass or kink or did he just say that.

If your snake regurges again take the feeder to the vet as it can also be tested for crypto.

Update!

He’s eating again. 2nd full feeding without regurge. He still doesn’t seem to have much of a food response though.

I downsized to half pinkies for a bit, then worked it up to full pinkies. He’s still very thin, and I see some stuck shed in places, but that will be a separate problem that should work itself out in time.


Herp Derp

When he presents you with a bowel movement have it checked for parasites and crypto.

I am late to the game here. However, I have a a 4 year old male corn, 550G.

When I first got him, at 9G, I didn't have temps correct, and he regurgitated a few meals.

I figured out the temps and he's been a great eater, and digester, every since.

What are your temps?

Corns are pretty happy with a 84-87 degree hot spot and a 72-75 degree cool spot, in my experience. Too hot is not good. Too cold is also not good.

There should be a gradient.

Everything else talked about here makes sense.

I am just adding my two cents from personal experience. I was worried sick when I first got him, but it was purely a husbandry issue. Not saying that is the case, but it's possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

I am late to the game here. However, I have a a 4 year old male corn, 550G.

When I first got him, at 9G, I didn't have temps correct, and he regurgitated a few meals.

I figured out the temps and he's been a great eater, and digester, every since.

What are your temps?

Corns are pretty happy with a 84-87 degree hot spot and a 72-75 degree cool spot, in my experience. Too hot is not good. Too cold is also not good.

There should be a gradient.

Everything else talked about here makes sense.

I am just adding my two cents from personal experience. I was worried sick when I first got him, but it was purely a husbandry issue. Not saying that is the case, but it's possible.

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I keep North American Colubrids in the 78-82F range ambient temps no hot spot or anything with slight drops at night time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

I am late to the game here. However, I have a a 4 year old male corn, 550G.

When I first got him, at 9G, I didn't have temps correct, and he regurgitated a few meals.

I figured out the temps and he's been a great eater, and digester, every since.

What are your temps?

Corns are pretty happy with a 84-87 degree hot spot and a 72-75 degree cool spot, in my experience. Too hot is not good. Too cold is also not good.

There should be a gradient.

Everything else talked about here makes sense.

I am just adding my two cents from personal experience. I was worried sick when I first got him, but it was purely a husbandry issue. Not saying that is the case, but it's possible.

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Sorry for the late reply.

His hotspot is at 85 set with a temp regulator. It’s about a 5 degree fluctuation because he likes to bump the probe off the center toward the corner.

Ambient temp is 70 but drops to 65 at night.


Herp Derp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

When he presents you with a bowel movement have it checked for parasites and crypto.

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He’s still pooping in frequent runny little bits rather than in big drops. Is that enough for testing?


Herp Derp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Sorry for the late reply.

His hotspot is at 85 set with a temp regulator. It’s about a 5 degree fluctuation because he likes to bump the probe off the center toward the corner.

Ambient temp is 70 but drops to 65 at night.


Herp Derp

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Your ambient temps are too low. Like jhill001, I suggest a 78-82 ambient temp. I do provide a hotspot around 84 for digestion purposes only. It's typically only used after a meal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

His hotspot is at 85 set with a temp regulator. It’s about a 5 degree fluctuation because he likes to bump the probe off the center toward the corner.

Ambient temp is 70 but drops to 65 at night.

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Your thermostat probe should not be located where the snake can move it, pee on it, dump water on it, etc. as that can cause the heat source to run too hot.

Ambient temps need to be higher, I wouldn't let them go below the mid 70's.

It doesn't take a lot of fecal matter to test for parasites.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Sorry for the late reply.

His hotspot is at 85 set with a temp regulator. It’s about a 5 degree fluctuation because he likes to bump the probe off the center toward the corner.

Ambient temp is 70 but drops to 65 at night.


Herp Derp

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Also, thermostat probe shouldn't be anywhere that the snake can move it, pee on it, poop on it, etc. If it's regulating the UTH then it needs to be on the outside between the UTH and the bottom of the enclosure


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Didn't mean to be redundant, bcr and I must have been typing our responses about the same time


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Didn't mean to be redundant, bcr and I must have been typing our responses about the same time


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I agree with bcr and jmcrook about tstat placement. Also not trying to be redundant, but quality advice from multiple reputable sources can't hurt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Also, thermostat probe shouldn't be anywhere that the snake can move it, pee on it, poop on it, etc. If it's regulating the UTH then it needs to be on the outside between the UTH and the bottom of the enclosure


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That makes sense... but wouldn’t that cause it to bend? I’m not sure if it’s made to be bent... it’s a pad but still seems like it should be on a flat surface? (Confirm otherwise?)

Regardless the ambient temp is as close as I can make it. We are in a mobile home and that’s with the heat on... I tried putting in a space heater we brought from the apartment, which was keeping the room 75-80 (and the problem BEGAN even in good temps, just so you guys know) but the space heater blew out a circuit.

Anyways, doesn’t matter either way. Both snakes are eating fine now. The corn is starting to gain weight. No more throwing up.

Still weak. So it’s not like he’s perfect. But he’s getting there.


Herp Derp

The probe btw is this large bulky cylinder. Part of me realized that there may be flat probes that are more common or more advisable.

Mine is about the size and girth of my pinkie.


Herp Derp

Since he is looking better, I might post pictures. But he still looks pretty bad and might cause a lot of anxiousness. Plus unnecessary bothering when there doesn’t need to be any.


Herp Derp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

That makes sense... but wouldn’t that cause it to bend? I’m not sure if it’s made to be bent... it’s a pad but still seems like it should be on a flat surface? (Confirm otherwise?)

Regardless the ambient temp is as close as I can make it. We are in a mobile home and that’s with the heat on... I tried putting in a space heater we brought from the apartment, which was keeping the room 75-80 (and the problem BEGAN even in good temps, just so you guys know) but the space heater blew out a circuit.

Anyways, doesn’t matter either way. Both snakes are eating fine now. The corn is starting to gain weight. No more throwing up.

Still weak. So it’s not like he’s perfect. But he’s getting there.


Herp Derp

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It will cause a bit of a bend in the UTH but that's better than a burn on a snake from an improperly regulated heat source.
An oil filled radiator will do a better job than a space heater and more safely too.
65* is still too cold of an ambient temp for either of those animals


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Update:

I buried him today.

I had just gotten more pinkies and fed him just last night. He was still lethargic.

I made sure he ate the whole pinkie.

This morning I found him dead after apparently puking one more time. There was a bit of yellow stuff as well. There was some swelling in his tummy and it was bruised. The pinkie was very tiny, so I am a little confused...

I took care of him. Took him out to the park and buried him deep so if he had anything it couldn’t hurt anyone else. But I wanted him to be cleansed and have a chance to return to the earth.

And I can’t help but beat myself up over it. At least he’s in a better place now and isn’t suffering.


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He had been eating fine for a while...


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I'm sorry for your loss.
Did you ever get the fecal in for crypto testing?

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

I'm sorry for your loss.
Did you ever get the fecal in for crypto testing?

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I did. And he came back positive. I’m also having Cookie tested. So far negative but the vet told me we have to test at least three more times to make sure... it can’t spread via air right?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

I did. And he came back positive. I’m also having Cookie tested. So far negative but the vet told me we have to test at least three more times to make sure... it can’t spread via air right?

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I am so very sorry.

Crypto transmission is fecal-oral, it is not airborne. As long as you practiced very strict quarantine between your two snakes the other one should be ok. I would definitely do several more tests though, a few months apart. In the meantime nothing else comes into your collection.

Chlorine, vinegar, and F10SC disinfectants do not kill crypto, only ammonia does. So if you want to keep your corn snake's equipment it will have to be disinfected with 100% ammonia. Take it all outside, wash it with soap and water, spray with 100% ammonia, let it dry, and rinse. Repeat several times over several days.

I would also put the retailer who sold it to you on blast as shops typically don't QT so God knows how many other infected animals they sold.

I'm so sorry for your loss. If the poor little guy tested positive for crypto, it sounds like you did everything you could do.

Hydrogen peroxide has also been shown to be effective against crypto. I'd use both (not at the same time).