New Rescue. Normie or no?

Any idea what my new little buddy is? Petsmart said "fancy" ball python and unfortunately this is one of those "rescue from Petsmart" situations, regardless of the morph. The attendant told me they had an aggressive "fancy ball python" in the back that they couldn't sell. They didn't know the sex and I haven't sexed it yet. I want to let it acclimate to a new habitat first, and more importantly, we've got some dehydration and a bad shed to get through before worrying about that. Anyway, dehydration and bad shed and the in general horrible Petsmart "care" aside... they said fancy, so I'm wondering what I'm looking at.

I was trying to get it in its new home pretty quickly so I only took time to snap a couple quick pictures before. The belly is partially patterned like the second picture and partially unpatterned. I can grab another picture tomorrow if that's a determining factor.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0ca43a97f2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...22587ed3db.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...40249a5566.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...18c60be472.jpg


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That's not a rescue animal. That's an animal bought from somewhere that treats the animals poorly (as the pics indicate). Buying from these stores is supporting them and putting more money in their pockets with which they will buy more animals and treat them this same, sad way.

They are there to make sales, buying from them is supporting them, not rescuing an animal.

Maybe Enchi?? I have very little experience with morphs.
Looks like it will be a pretty animal once you have the poor creature cleaned up.

I'll stay out of the never-ending larger debate.
The OP doesn't indicate if any money changed hands.
The snake has a much better home. For the snake, that's a good thing.

Good luck with it. Anything in that shape would be a bit pissy. Probably will calm down once He/she's feeling better.

Looks like a pretty reduced normal to me.

Not 100% sure, maybe someone with more experience will chime in.

I got my first and only BP from PetSmart a year ago, but from one that cared for reptiles properly so I had none of the problems you're dealing with. Ignore all the bashing, you're giving him/her a much better home.

bashing? who's bashing? sharing information is not bashing.

Buying from a big box store and contributing to their neglect is not the same as taking in a rescue animal.

Someone who is taking am animal and bettering its care, that is a rescue to me, no matter the money that it took to acquire the animal.

According to the OP, the store clerk said they couldn't sell it. It was damaged merchandise.
Damaged merchandise goes into the dumpster, and you can find YouTubes of people dumpster diving pet store trash and coming up with LIVE animals. Yikes some places don't even care enough to put an animal down before throwing it away.

Regardless, the animal would probably have been disposed of somehow, w/o the OP's intervention. Let's not re-define common English words to fit a narrow agenda.

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Originally Posted by distaff

According to the OP, the store clerk said they couldn't sell it. It was damaged merchandise.
Damaged merchandise goes into the dumpster, and you can find YouTubes of people dumpster diving pet store trash and coming up with LIVE animals. Yikes some places don't even care enough to put an animal down before throwing it away.

Regardless, the animal would probably have been disposed of somehow, w/o the OP's intervention. Let's not re-define common English words to fit a narrow agenda.

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Well said.

I think the most viral of those videos was the baby iguana, but I've seen many more.

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

bashing? who's bashing? sharing information is not bashing.

Buying from a big box store and contributing to their neglect is not the same as taking in a rescue animal.

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Either way the snake is in much better care. Can't keep them in those conditions. I understand your point in not supporting these stores, but at that same time it's not good if the snake dies either. Maybe someone needs to step up and have them stopped from selling these animals unless they change the conditions they are kept in. :)

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

That's not a rescue animal. That's an animal bought from somewhere that treats the animals poorly (as the pics indicate). Buying from these stores is supporting them and putting more money in their pockets with which they will buy more animals and treat them this same, sad way.

They are there to make sales, buying from them is supporting them, not rescuing an animal.

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You know I luv ya.....and Petsmart is worse. But that hits me in the feels. You know where I work and I take care of my animals. There are a few of us in box stores that know what we are doing. Still luv ya :P

Good points made above. Wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers, sorry if I did.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

You know I luv ya.....and Petsmart is worse. But that hits me in the feels. You know where I work and I take care of my animals. There are a few of us in box stores that know what we are doing. Still luv ya :P

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There's exceptions to every rule, and you, my friend, are obviously one :)

You do know where we get out snakes from right? And usually when we get them in they are 6mo old and still hatchling weight which pisses me off! So I now have to get them up to weight before they hit the sales floor and take care of the issues they have. I'm so pissed off every time I get snakes in and then i see them posting on morph market with the same age snake all plump and healthy. So they mass produce normals, under feed them, don't care about their issues, and still ship them off to us! My snake Odyn had a retained eye cap when we got him in store. Who doesn't see that before shipping it off to a store! Grrrrrrrr.

And this isn't directed at anyone. Just a vent post.

I'm probably going to get bashed for this but it's whatever. Sorry if the bold seems aggressive but it's just to highlight important points, don't take offense. Please read the whole comment before replying. I AM NOT BASHING THOSE WITH PETCO/PETSMART RESCUES, NOR THOSE WHO HAVE BOUGHT FROM THESE STORES (god that seems aggressive lol).

It's awesome that the OP felt the need to intervene before anything worse happened to the snake (*cough* dumpster), but there's a reason why craigafrechette said what they did. I have seen plenty of big box employees who genuinely care about the animals, and have the knowledge to care for them the correct way. But the problem doesn't just lie in supporting the store, the problem lies in supporting the "breeders" that the animals come from. Now I'm not sure if this is entirely true, but the suppliers for Petco's small animals aren't good news based on some investigations ( I'm not somebody who supports PETA btw). I won't get into any details, there's some articles around about it, along with a couple of videos. They're basically animal mills. So when you purchase one of these animals to rescue, you're really just giving Petco more of a reason to buy more of that animal from these suppliers, resulting in them staying in business and more animals being put through these torturous conditions. This explains why Sunnieskys has to do what they do (props to you btw for caring about the animals before they're sold. Idk too much about policy for selling them, but I've seen animals in the display tanks for sale in the state of health you've just described). Yes, a single snake dying at the care of a big box store is extremely unfortunate and shouldn't happen, but now due to the purchase of one animal several more may have to go through the same thing.

To sum all that up: Buying animals from Petco= more demand for animals from bad suppliers= more neglected animals

But there have been some really good points made here as well. Yes, they did rescue an animal, and now it is safe from further harm. I'm not saying they were a bad person for saving this ball python, as it clearly needed help and there are many of people who wouldn't've stepped in and did what the OP did. And again, we're not sure if any money was exchanged either. I myself am happy that the snake is with a responsible and caring owner, just felt that I should share my view on the subject, and why I personally don't see myself ever buying an animal from Petco.

I agree with all that. I'm not sure who Petsmart gets their snakes from. Their policy seems to be feed all snakes pinkies....um hells to the no!

Petco policy is to never toss any animal, deceased, or live into a dumpster. We need to have a vet put an animal down and then it goes into a holding facility in store for pick up. Never into a dumpster. That includes fish.

We also must contact a vet within 24hours on seeing an injury or sickness.

I also go into other stores in my district and check on snakes. If I see something wring i talk to the store mgr and the dept leader and educate them on proper feeding and how to stay within protocol. It's the loopholes yo!

and I agree with the animal mills. The gourmet rodent is a mill. I'm sick of them sending me underweight snakes. I wish Petco would rotate breeders for better animals. If smaller breeders supplied Petco it would make a world of difference.

I'm seeing a reduced pattern normal however, wait until all that old shed is off and then post new photos. Good luck with your new baby!

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

I think the most viral of those videos was the baby iguana, but I've seen many more.

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Interesting, I didn't know there were more. The one with the guy finding the iguana in the trash was faked.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

I agree with all that. I'm not sure who Petsmart gets their snakes from. Their policy seems to be feed all snakes pinkies....um hells to the no!

Petco policy is to never toss any animal, deceased, or live into a dumpster. We need to have a vet put an animal down and then it goes into a holding facility in store for pick up. Never into a dumpster. That includes fish.

We also must contact a vet within 24hours on seeing an injury or sickness.

I also go into other stores in my district and check on snakes. If I see something wring i talk to the store mgr and the dept leader and educate them on proper feeding and how to stay within protocol. It's the loopholes yo!

and I agree with the animal mills. The gourmet rodent is a mill. I'm sick of them sending me underweight snakes. I wish Petco would rotate breeders for better animals. If smaller breeders supplied Petco it would make a world of difference.

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Hmm, I guess some stores don't have employees who care enough not to throw-out animals or to take them to a vet when needed. But seriously kudos to you for doing what you do, it's good to know there are some great big box employees out there. I was talking to a couple of people at my local Petco who actually keep reptiles, one of them an employee (who was happy to agree with me on some of the sucky equipment they sell) who had multiple BPs and another who worked at a different Petco and had LOADSS of herps of all types. It's just really unfortunate where the animals come from- all of them (small mammal, reptile, birds, everything). I TOTALLY agree with you on rotating breeders.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

I'm seeing a reduced pattern normal however, wait until all that old shed is off and then post new photos. Good luck with your new baby!



Interesting, I didn't know there were more. The one with the guy finding the iguana in the trash was faked.

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Woah that was faked? This is news! I've seen it but I never knew it was fake. Thanks for the info, how'd you find out?

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Originally Posted by GiddyGoat

Woah that was faked? This is news! I've seen it but I never knew it was fake. Thanks for the info, how'd you find out?

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I should clarify 'most likely' faked, based on Mike's lack of proof, propensity for lying (he was exposed on fauna back in 2012) and direct emails with a user over there being highly fishy. Comments in his BOI were made in 2013 that the claim was investigated and proven false but I didn't see more details. Most of us all suspected it was all faked and he did it for publicity.



Sorry to go off topic

Huh! Thanks for all the info, I never knew and that was the only thing of his I'd ever really seen.

How about getting back on track and leave the other discussion for another time in another thread

This is a reduced pattern normal which may or may not be genetic, many are not.

He/She is a gorgeous snake regardless. Hopefully some TLC will get him back on track! Congrats!

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

That's not a rescue animal. That's an animal bought from somewhere that treats the animals poorly (as the pics indicate). Buying from these stores is supporting them and putting more money in their pockets with which they will buy more animals and treat them this same, sad way.

They are there to make sales, buying from them is supporting them, not rescuing an animal.

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In my original post I stated that they could not sell the animal. No money changed hands.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

That's not a rescue animal. That's an animal bought from somewhere that treats the animals poorly (as the pics indicate). Buying from these stores is supporting them and putting more money in their pockets with which they will buy more animals and treat them this same, sad way.

They are there to make sales, buying from them is supporting them, not rescuing an animal.

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This^^^ people quit buying from big box stores and calling it a rescue. You purchased a snake in poor health.. its not a rescue. Even being no money xchanged.. U still opened the option for thm to bring in more snakes to abuse. Good luck w it. With time he/sge shld be fine.

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For the three of you who have actually responded to the question I asked, thank you! I really don't care too much whether it is a reduced normie or a normal normie or a snake worth $8000.. I have provided a better home.

For those of you arguing about my choice of words: no money changed hands. They showed me a baby in need and I took it home for free. For what it's worth, here's my take on the "rescue" debate.. I think rescue is a proper word even if money had changed hands. Webster defines "rescue" as "to free from confinement, danger, or evil". No matter whether money changes hands, if a baby is saved from the danger of mistreatment, it is (by definition) rescued. I do agree that there are some ethical issues at play here and I think that [insert big box name here]'s corporate office should make sure that their associates know how to take care of these animals. Maybe an organized push to demand that would help? Either way. This is a thread asking about a morph thats posted in a forum dedicated to discussing morphs.

Reduced normal. And they should know the sex by the paperwork that comes in with the animal. As well as weights and feeding charts.

"Fancy" is just a petstore indicator that often simply adds to the animal's price by its presence, far as I can tell. Listing things as "normal" ball pythons and "normal/regular" rats didn't sell them well, so they're tied to the term "animal fancy".

Fancy usually means any old morph, majority of the time they will not know what it is.

My 'fancy' ball python from PetSmart was a pastel 100% het pied and still very bright and vibrant almost two years later!

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...51-1_thumb.jpg

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Originally Posted by Deborah

How about getting back on track and leave the other discussion for another time in another thread

This is a reduced pattern normal which may or may not be genetic, many are not.

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Where can I find more information about this? I like to read and know things! :D

I've looked through the morph pages on here quite a bit, and unless you're referring to the subtle morphs, I haven't seen anything about this.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Reduced normal. And they should know the sex by the paperwork that comes in with the animal. As well as weights and feeding charts.

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Their care sheets were seriously lacking. When I actually looked at them closely, I was past livid.

No sex, weight, or hatching info on there. They couldn't give a verbal report on any of that info either. I'm assuming it was hatched around the beginning of the year?

They got this snake on 6/1. Apparently someone had told them to offer food daily when they first got it. They indicated that it fed on 7/11. One week later, they started offering daily again through 7/23.

I have no information for 7/24 through 8/1 (the dates weren't even written in). The dates are written in without any notes from 8/1 through 8/15 where there is a note that it was shedding. No dates or notes until 8/26 when the note says "shedding" and that they had offered food. There is no information for 8/26 through 9/18 when I took it home.

I weighed it at 143g. Still no sex information. I will be posting this info in the husbandry forum as well to ask some questions. That post is here.

There is very little info on genetic reduced pattern simply because most people really do not care to breed or produce them anymore since they are normal and that some mutation have had the same effect.

However I think they are still something worthy to work with when incorporated in other mutations, there is Joliff line called Tiger which is co-dom (not to be mistaken with the Desert Enchi combo), NERD has the
bengal which is recessive....etc

Helped with the bad shed tonight. Grabbed some more pictures in case they help!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3c2d5f3f4c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fd912b5a8e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...317948b5be.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fd912b5a8e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...456564dd8e.jpg


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Forgot about these. Is that pixelated or does that refer to something more distinct?

It got a little nippy there for a while and I need to get back studying so I don't have time to wait for it to let go if it bit and held on... So I threw on some gloves haha.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...719a16d57e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e65525e3e7.jpg


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Whether genetic or not, that is one BEAUTIFUL snake.

I own morphs. But I carefully selected the ones whose looks I will like throughout their lives. Many morphs start out crazy cool looking in hatchlings, and then they fade/brown out and change. Many of them still look quite cool, though, just not like they did as hatchlings.

"Normals" start pretty and they stay pretty. And I prefer their looks over some morphs.

That is the Beauty with Ball Pythons though, SUCH a huge selection, there is something for everybody :) But the "wild type" in itself is gorgeous and always will be, too.

Good job on getting the shed off. Now just adjust the habitat a bit and then let that snake recover and relax real well, before attempting to feed. In the future, when its defensive, just cup your free hand over on top of the snake, slightly (and super gently of course) pushing down until the snake is tight against both hands (GENTLY). It seems to snap them out of the "I'm gonna get ya and I'm gonna kill ya" mode. After that they usually go right back to being calm and exploring. But it is very important that you get it eating well before you do any "behavior modifications", lol..

You want to make sure that this behavior doesn't just stem from all that stress and fear. Either way, the gentle "cupping" of the snake is not and should not be a aggressive or "disciplinary" action, just a gentle "back down and calm down". All your movements around the snake should always be direct and deliberate, yet gentle. No jerking, nervous or hesitant movement.

hope that helps a little :)

Nice snake, love the color fades on the belly. That is a good idea with the gloves. I have two young nippy toddlers to attend to these days and I think gloves and careful gentleness might be a good stepping stone to the next phase of tameness.:)

Zina, excellent advice, thank you for the tips, I am going to try this stuff with my babies.:)

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

Zina, excellent advice, thank you for the tips, I am going to try this stuff with my babies.:)

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I do this with my brand new hatchlings, some of which can be REALLY defensive. (and one is simply a stinker). All have already calmed down and I only handle them for cleaning the tub and a couple picture sessions.

If they look "primed" or not, I always approach with a flat hand from up above them. Not really from "in front of them". That does not give them a target to tag. Then I lower my flat hand gently on top of them, slightly touching their whole body and head downwards. I then use that hand to pick them up no problem. If they "s" up again in hand (which only one did) I use the other hand to do the same thing again. Come from up above with flat hand, gently pushing that angry head down and putting SLIGHT pressure onto the body, then lifting the hand again. And they are calm and sweet.

I can't stress enough though, that this is NOT a aggressive motion. Not to scare them or punish them. It just seems to snap them out of that mode and calms them down. Never use it angry, never move quick or harsh.

I don't like gloves with the small ones, because I can't really feel them. I like to feel if they tense up or move and I want to feel how much pressure I'm using in holding them. But yours aren't as little, so if you want to use gloves until you are more comfortable, go ahead. Try to find the ones that are quite soft and not so thick. Like the "rose bush trimming" gloves out of soft leather, they are more then enough protection...

If you feel uncomfortable using your hand to do the "touch" when first getting them out, or you can't really approach from above easily, you can use a paper towel roll with a bit of paper still on it, so its skinny, but still soft. Gently push that head down, then take them out. Its more about the touch, then a push. Only do this if they seem tense and ready to strike.

Only do any of that after they are well established eaters, so you know they aren't just acting out from stress..

My guess is that a normal with a reduced pattern.

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It looks very normal to me. Bright patterned normals with reduced pattern overall are very pretty.

I would lay money it's a male, since females are generally more, although with it being a normal, it's still possible you got a female.

Once it's all settled in to a proper habitat and feeding, you can get it sexed and find out 100%.

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Originally Posted by zina10

Whether genetic or not, that is one BEAUTIFUL snake.

I own morphs. But I carefully selected the ones whose looks I will like throughout their lives. Many morphs start out crazy cool looking in hatchlings, and then they fade/brown out and change. Many of them still look quite cool, though, just not like they did as hatchlings.

"Normals" start pretty and they stay pretty. And I prefer their looks over some morphs.

That is the Beauty with Ball Pythons though, SUCH a huge selection, there is something for everybody :) But the "wild type" in itself is gorgeous and always will be, too.

Good job on getting the shed off. Now just adjust the habitat a bit and then let that snake recover and relax real well, before attempting to feed. In the future, when its defensive, just cup your free hand over on top of the snake, slightly (and super gently of course) pushing down until the snake is tight against both hands (GENTLY). It seems to snap them out of the "I'm gonna get ya and I'm gonna kill ya" mode. After that they usually go right back to being calm and exploring. But it is very important that you get it eating well before you do any "behavior modifications", lol..

You want to make sure that this behavior doesn't just stem from all that stress and fear. Either way, the gentle "cupping" of the snake is not and should not be a aggressive or "disciplinary" action, just a gentle "back down and calm down". All your movements around the snake should always be direct and deliberate, yet gentle. No jerking, nervous or hesitant movement.

hope that helps a little :)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

I do this with my brand new hatchlings, some of which can be REALLY defensive. (and one is simply a stinker). All have already calmed down and I only handle them for cleaning the tub and a couple picture sessions.

If they look "primed" or not, I always approach with a flat hand from up above them. Not really from "in front of them". That does not give them a target to tag. Then I lower my flat hand gently on top of them, slightly touching their whole body and head downwards. I then use that hand to pick them up no problem. If they "s" up again in hand (which only one did) I use the other hand to do the same thing again. Come from up above with flat hand, gently pushing that angry head down and putting SLIGHT pressure onto the body, then lifting the hand again. And they are calm and sweet.

I can't stress enough though, that this is NOT a aggressive motion. Not to scare them or punish them. It just seems to snap them out of that mode and calms them down. Never use it angry, never move quick or harsh.

I don't like gloves with the small ones, because I can't really feel them. I like to feel if they tense up or move and I want to feel how much pressure I'm using in holding them. But yours aren't as little, so if you want to use gloves until you are more comfortable, go ahead. Try to find the ones that are quite soft and not so thick. Like the "rose bush trimming" gloves out of soft leather, they are more then enough protection...

If you feel uncomfortable using your hand to do the "touch" when first getting them out, or you can't really approach from above easily, you can use a paper towel roll with a bit of paper still on it, so its skinny, but still soft. Gently push that head down, then take them out. Its more about the touch, then a push. Only do this if they seem tense and ready to strike.

Only do any of that after they are well established eaters, so you know they aren't just acting out from stress..

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Good stuff, Zina10. Thanks for sharing. As much as I hate seeing summer come to an end (that means winter weather in New England isn't too far off), it's good to see you around the forum more :D

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Good stuff, Zina10. Thanks for sharing. As much as I hate seeing summer come to an end (that means winter weather in New England isn't too far off), it's good to see you around the forum more :D

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Thank you :)
Life has slowed down just a bit here, and I enjoy popping into the forum throughout the day..

Nothing "fancy", I hate that they use that term to increase the price on someone ignorant to the purchase.
Any animal leaving a pet store just frees a spot for another to come in.
This debate is never ending.

That normal does have a nice reduced pattern but as Deb already said, no breeders want to end up with a whole clutch of normals that whole sale at $5 or less each.