Signs of hunger, stress?

My bp hasn't eaten for nearly three weeks now, he is three months old, and weighed 70g when I took his weight recently. He had a successful shed and appears otherwise healthy, he has been using both of his hides, and I have observed him drinking from his water dish a couple of times, after which he has gone straight back into his hide, so in that regard, his behavior seems normal/healthy to me.

I'd say during the past three or four days or so, he has been displaying morning and daytime activity, which he has not done previously; I usually barely see him during the day, other than if I happen to catch him going for a drink, and then going back to hiding. He still uses his hides, but appears to be out far more than usual. From what I can tell, his movement is not erratic; but he does appear to be exploring his enclosure, including him climbing up on top of artificial plants and nosing the metal grate/screen of the top lid of his viv - - a behavior similar to the one he displayed when I first introduced him to his tank. I have read that "escape attempt behaviors" are a sign of a stressed snake, which is why I'm worried he may not be eating due to something stressing him out for some reason all of the sudden.

What is confusing to me though is that this behavior is completely unusual for him and he has only been doing this for a few days; he has not seemed stressed previously at all, nor has he been out much when it is light out, until now.

Due to an ambient temp drop in his tank, I had to get him either a CHE or an infrared, and I chose infrared for being more affordable, I have had to use it to get his ambient temps back to the normal range, could the infrared be a reason for his activity? When I turned it on he did almost immediately come up out of his hot spot, appeared to be looking upward toward the source of heat with his tongue flicking, and went straight into his cool side - - so he switched hides in favor of the one that is receiving added heat.

At this point, I'm not sure what to do in order to get him to eat, other than offer larger prey item because the rat pinkys are smaller than his midsection - - and since he has refused the rat pinkys I have offered, I was considering offering him a fuzzy next.

- His breeder has established him on f/t rat pinkys; he was fed five times at the breeder's.

- His humidity and temperatures are good; his hot side is set to 33C at all times, his cool side is back at 25.5 to 26C after I got the infrared for him, and his humidity is at 60% (75-77% during more humid days).

- Handling has been kept to a minimum, and I have not disturbed the snake.

- He is currently in a 10 gallon baby tank.

- The area around his enclosure is quiet, with very minimal movement/traffic around it.

- His enclosure is clean (no mold, feces, etc), he has not defecated, though I have removed small urates.

- The sides and the back of his tank are covered in black paper.

- He has two identical, low-ceiling plastic hides; with crumpled up paper towels inside; he uses both hides.

the behavior you describe definitely sounds like the snake is hungry and a bit stressed from it. i'm just going to go through your info and try to address what i can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

- His breeder has established him on f/t rat pinkys; he was fed five times at the breeder's.

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even though the snake isn't eating right now, you need to up the prey size. follow the feeding chart below.

has the snake eaten for you since you've had them?
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2F98qfzDH.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

- His humidity and temperatures are good; his hot side is set to 33C at all times, his cool side is back at 25.5 to 26C after I got the infrared for him, and his humidity is at 60% (75-77% during more humid days).

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hatchlings usually do better with a slightly lower hot spot temp around 88-89° F (31° C) but your temps sound good. maybe try lowering the hot spot temps a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

- Handling has been kept to a minimum, and I have not disturbed the snake.

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continue to do so until the snake is eating regularly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

- He is currently in a 10 gallon baby tank.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

- He has two identical, low-ceiling plastic hides; with crumpled up paper towels inside; he uses both hides.

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what's the L x W x H of the enclosure? you might need to move the snake to an even smaller tub. i have Coffee Bean (90g+) in a 15 quart tub with almost comically small hides. what is the behavior when a prey item is presented? does the snake poke out then retreat, or is there 0 interest?

@tttaylorrr:

The snake has not eaten since I got him, and I have upgraded the prey item for him, from pinky to a fuzzy, the breeder has been notified of the snake not eating and she recommended that I maintain a 7-day period between his meals despite him not having taken any food. I just lowered my thermostat from 33C to 32C, so his hot spot should now be a bit cooler, and he has not been handled today at all, and I'm willing to forego handling altogether if it will help him start eating. As I said, though, handling him in general has been very minimal since I got him, and he has /not/ displayed any symptoms of stress until recently, it only just started a couple of days ago.

I'm unable to get the exact measurements of his enclosure at the moment and cannot remember them from the top of my head, but the breeder (who maintains her own snakes in a rack system) told me his enclosure is adequate for a baby, especially with the modifications I've made to the tank (covering the back and the sides, adding clutter). I would have gotten him size S hides but I was unable to get them from anywhere, including pet stores and online, they were all sold out, which is why I had to settle for the medium size hides he has in his enclosure right now, they seem to be working for him however since he is utilizing both of them, and I added the paper towels to make the hides appear more cramped and enclosed for his safety/security.

His behavior when presented with prey item is generally zero interest, he has not shown any "real" feeding behavior toward a prey item at any of the times I have offered him f/t, including when I have imitated live prey by gently wiggling the rat pinky, at best he comes closer, flicks his tongue, then retreats, after which there is no continued interest in the prey item. My snake also suffers from a slight wobble, which is why I've been trying to avoid imitating live too much, because I was told by his breeder it could increase his chances of missing a strike due to his wobble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

The snake has not eaten since I got him, and I have upgraded the prey item for him, from pinky to a fuzzy, the breeder has been notified of the snake not eating and she recommended that I maintain a 7-day period between his meals despite him not having taken any food. I just lowered my thermostat from 33C to 32C, so his hot spot should now be a bit cooler, and he has not been handled today at all, and I'm willing to forego handling altogether if it will help him start eating. As I said, though, handling him in general has been very minimal since I got him, and he has /not/ displayed any symptoms of stress until recently, it only just started a couple of days ago.

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i agree with sticking to a 7-day schedule.

the behavior you're seeing is probably the snake realizing he's hungry, but since your husbandry might not be meeting his needs, and trying to go elsewhere. your husbandry is fine, but if the snake isn't eating, something's gotta give.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

I'm unable to get the exact measurements of his enclosure at the moment and cannot remember them from the top of my head, but the breeder (who maintains her own snakes in a rack system) told me his enclosure is adequate for a baby, especially with the modifications I've made to the tank (covering the back and the sides, adding clutter). I would have gotten him size S hides but I was unable to get them from anywhere, including pet stores and online, they were all sold out, which is why I had to settle for the medium size hides he has in his enclosure right now, they seem to be working for him however since he is utilizing both of them, and I added the paper towels to make the hides appear more cramped and enclosed for his safety/security.

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on paper the enclosure might be suitable, but in reality it's not since the snake isn't eating. monitor your husbandry LIKE A HAWK for the next week or so to ensure it's EXACTLY where you say it is. if the snake still won't eat, we're going to have to try something else: moving him to a tub, smaller hides. not every baby snake can thrive in a "big" enclosure right away, and that's okay! you've done everything right so far but ur lil beep just isn't having it. there's a reason Deborah's write-up on this topic is a stickied tread and is constantly referenced in these situations: it WORKS. your situation is not new and is almost without a doubt husbandry-related. over the next week or so you should start gathering the supplies needed for "The Deb Treatment" as i like to call it. we gotta get that baby eating!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

His behavior when presented with prey item is generally zero interest, he has not shown any "real" feeding behavior toward a prey item at any of the times I have offered him f/t, including when I have imitated live prey by gently wiggling the rat pinky, at best he comes closer, flicks his tongue, then retreats, after which there is no continued interest in the prey item. My snake also suffers from a slight wobble, which is why I've been trying to avoid imitating live too much, because I was told by his breeder it could increase his chances of missing a strike due to his wobble.

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this sounds very typical for a snake that has improper husbandry (not the wobble of course). reference my advice above and we'll get him on the right track.

May have to cave and swap out the red light for the CHE too. Yours might be one of the ones who's unable to tolerate the light.

Thank you so much for linking me that thread and the advice.

I'll give Solidus one more week or so; and then I'll follow the instructions on the stickied thread, at first I wasn't anxious or frustrated, but now this is starting to stress me out, too, I would literally give my kidney for this baby to eat lol, and like any responsible snake owner I obviously want my guy to be healthy and happy. I've been keeping obscenely good track of my husbandry lol since I live in a country where the weather makes everything difficult and affects indoors temps and humidity a lot as well, so I'm certain it is unrelated to the temps and humidity, but could be the enclosure itself, or sizes of his hides.

I do have these plastic IKEA storage tubs already, I've been using them to store substrate, and since a tub might prove to be better for him at least until he gets to around 200g and starts to eat on regular basis, I started wondering if the ones I have at hand would be ideal/sufficient?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2FqHTxAWO.png

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2Fi3fuR4V.png

The tub is 40 x 30 x 18 cm.

So, what I'm planning to do next is:

- No handling whatsoever
- Try providing smaller hides
- Switch infrared to CHE and see if it makes a difference (his stressed out/overtly active behavior DID start about two days after I got him the infrared)
- Continue keep track of husbandry and numbers
- Continue to offer larger prey item (fuzzy)
- Move him to a tub and follow the instructions if he still hasn't eaten within a week from now

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

Thank you so much for linking me that thread and the advice.

I'll give Solidus one more week or so; and then I'll follow the instructions on the stickied thread, at first I wasn't anxious or frustrated, but now this is starting to stress me out, too, I would literally give my kidney for this baby to eat lol, and like any responsible snake owner I obviously want my guy to be healthy and happy. I've been keeping obscenely good track of my husbandry lol since I live in a country where the weather makes everything difficult and affects indoors temps and humidity a lot as well, so I'm certain it is unrelated to the temps and humidity, but could be the enclosure itself, or sizes of his hides.

I do have these plastic IKEA storage tubs already, I've been using them to store substrate, and since a tub might prove to be better for him at least until he gets to around 200g and starts to eat on regular basis, I started wondering if the ones I have at hand would be ideal/sufficient?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2FqHTxAWO.png

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2Fi3fuR4V.png

The tub is 40 x 30 x 18 cm.

So, what I'm planning to do next is:

- No handling whatsoever
- Try providing smaller hides
- Switch infrared to CHE and see if it makes a difference (his stressed out/overtly active behavior DID start about two days after I got him the infrared)
- Continue keep track of husbandry and numbers
- Continue to offer larger prey item (fuzzy)
- Move him to a tub and follow the instructions if he still hasn't eaten within a week from now

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Deborah recommends a 6qt tub in her thread, and i can't say i can offer advice that's against her recommendations. HOWEVER, i'm using the same tub size in those pics (15qt) for lil Coffee Bean. with air holes (of course), those tubs can be suitable, but again, Deborah recommends a 6qt.

your plan moving forward sounds good. that's an interesting bit you mentioned about the bulb...maybe you can try switching that out right away and offer food on his next scheduled feeding. if you still get a refusal, i say it's time for The Deb Treatment^TM.

I'll have to see if I can get my hands on a 6qt, but if the tub I already have is suitable, I'll most likely end up using that one.

He refused his food even before the infrared so I doubt it's the the cause of him not eating, he might be sensitive to the light and that is why his activity has increased so much, combined with the hunger he's feeling, but I think I'll switch it out to a CHE, just in case.

Thanks again, I will post an update in Solidus' thread when I know how best to proceed after I've given him one more week, but as of right now, I'll probably have to re-house him in a tub instead of a tank, and honestly, if the tub works, he can remain in one even past 200g as far as I'm concerned, if he's healthy and begins to eat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

I'll have to see if I can get my hands on a 6qt, but if the tub I already have is suitable, I'll most likely end up using that one.

He refused his food even before the infrared so I doubt it's the the cause of him not eating, he might be sensitive to the light and that is why his activity has increased so much, combined with the hunger he's feeling, but I think I'll switch it out to a CHE, just in case.

Thanks again, I will post an update in Solidus' thread when I know how best to proceed after I've given him one more week, but as of right now, I'll probably have to re-house him in a tub instead of a tank, and honestly, if the tub works, he can remain in one even past 200g as far as I'm concerned, if he's healthy and begins to eat.

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keep us posted :gj:

I'm sorry if I missed it but how are you heating the F/T rat fuzzy?

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Originally Posted by dr del ❤️

I'm sorry if I missed it but how are you heating the F/T rat fuzzy?

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I've thawed his rats - - pinky's so far, the next meal I'll offer is a fuzzy, by putting the prey item in a reclosable zipper bag and filling a tupperware container with water. The prey items that I've offered have been fully thawed, warm, and dry every time I've tried to feed him, it was one of the first things I checked to make sure I was heating his prey right when he refused food for the first time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

I've thawed his rats - - pinky's so far, the next meal I'll offer is a fuzzy, by putting the prey item in a reclosable zipper bag and filling a tupperware container with water. The prey items that I've offered have been fully thawed, warm, and dry every time I've tried to feed him, it was one of the first things I checked to make sure I was heating his prey right when he refused food for the first time.

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have you tried scenting the room for like, 30min to an hour before offering?

When ours wouldn't eat, I covered the entire tank...even the front...with paper and didn't so much as peek at him. Then waited about 5 days. Then I thawed the rat literally on top of the snake cage. Then blow dried it with a hair dryer in the room with the snake. This worked for us! Good luck!

UPDATE

Moved my boy from his viv to a new, 15qt tub setup today -- it's the same plastic IKEA storage tub I posted pics of earlier. The tub has been furnished with substrate, a ceramic water dish, and one low-ceiling plastic hide, situated on the warm side; he has a new heat mat, regulated by a t-stat. Temps and humidity are good, and I drilled ventilation holes into the tub to provide sufficient airflow. Again, like with his tank, I used black paper to cover the sides and back, even the lid, to minimize his stress and "visibility." As before, I have not handled him at all, except for a few minutes today when I moved him to the tub.

I also took his weight today, he has lost a couple of grams, and has gone 4 weeks w/o feeding now. This is his /first day/ in the new tub setup, I'll give him about two weeks, to see if he'll start eating now that he's housed in a more tighter and enclosed space. His next scheduled feeding is 09/16, and I still have him on a 7-day schedule. I also have f/t fuzzy rats for him ready in the freezer, upgraded from the pinky's he has been refusing, and I'm planning on scenting the room properly as well and letting his prey item thaw directly on top of his tub to see if that makes any difference. My plan now is letting him get acclimated to his tub, offer food, and make sure my husbandry stays on point.

If he still refuses to eat, the breeder has offered to take him back to get him eating again and get some weight on him but as of right now, this is how I'm going to proceed; and hopefully, my baby will de-stress and accept food.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/wIQjocY.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/wIQjocY.png

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i see you, Solidus!!!


thank you for the update! that's good on the breeder for working something out with you, but hopefully it doesn't come to that!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

i see you, Solidus!!!


thank you for the update! that's good on the breeder for working something out with you, but hopefully it doesn't come to that!

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He started exploring the tub right away but already went inside his hide a couple of times, I'm gonna let him do his thing and then offer him a fuzzy on the scheduled feeding day, I know he may not take it right away, but I'm really hoping he'll start eating in the tub. His breeder has been really helpful and supportive, I don't want it to come to that, either, but if that's what it takes to get him to eat, I'll gladly give him away for awhile until he's bigger and eating. So far, so good, though, I'll keep the updates coming.

Hide looks too big. You need to have 2, one on hot side and one on cool side. That tub looks a bit on the small side relative to the size of the hide and water bowl. Probably alright if you had appropriately sized hides.

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Originally Posted by SiXandSeven8ths

Hide looks too big. You need to have 2, one on hot side and one on cool side. That tub looks a bit on the small side relative to the size of the hide and water bowl. Probably alright if you had appropriately sized hides.

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I've been looking for a size S plastic hide but I can't find one, they're sold out/unavailable on every pet store near me as well as from the two online reptile stores in my country, he has however been using that hide since I got him, it's medium size, and I've also added paper towels inside it to make it seem more crowded for him. I am aware two hides are normally recommended, and he did have two, while he was still kept in a viv setup. This is temporary, until he starts eating.

The tub is small (15qt; and an even smaller one was recommended but that size is what I had in hand) on purpose, did you even read what my thread is about? I am following the instructions from this post to the best of my ability / what resources are available to me at this time to get my baby to start eating.

In terms of hides for the smaller ones I have always used plant pot saucers with one hole cut in the side ( twice the width of the snakes widest part).

I think the low ceiling helps to add to the feeling of security somehow - you can bed it down in the substrate to ensure it is the correct height to touch their back when inside. :)

The hide is absolutely too big. The plant saucer or a paper towel cardboard end will be the way to go. The little guy is looking for a place to set up camp and grab his prey items. All your other husbandry and environmental setup seems on point. He needs a very small hide right away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

The hide is absolutely too big. The plant saucer or a paper towel cardboard end will be the way to go. The little guy is looking for a place to set up camp and grab his prey items. All your other husbandry and environmental setup seems on point. He needs a very small hide right away.

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Thank you, I'll change it, I'll try to get him a plant saucer for a hide that was also recommended in Deborah's thread, the reason I've chosen plastic hides is because they've seemed to be the most low ceiling hides I could find for him, as I said before, I have tried to find him a smaller hide before but they've been unavailable, I didn't really know the plant saucer was an option til I was directed to Deborah's thread. I will change his hide as soon as I can, I might be able to get it for him as soon as today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iddah

My bp hasn't eaten for nearly three weeks now, he is three months old, and weighed 70g when I took his weight recently. He had a successful shed and appears otherwise healthy, he has been using both of his hides, and I have observed him drinking from his water dish a couple of times, after which he has gone straight back into his hide, so in that regard, his behavior seems normal/healthy to me.

I'd say during the past three or four days or so, he has been displaying morning and daytime activity, which he has not done previously; I usually barely see him during the day, other than if I happen to catch him going for a drink, and then going back to hiding. He still uses his hides, but appears to be out far more than usual. From what I can tell, his movement is not erratic; but he does appear to be exploring his enclosure, including him climbing up on top of artificial plants and nosing the metal grate/screen of the top lid of his viv - - a behavior similar to the one he displayed when I first introduced him to his tank. I have read that "escape attempt behaviors" are a sign of a stressed snake, which is why I'm worried he may not be eating due to something stressing him out for some reason all of the sudden.

What is confusing to me though is that this behavior is completely unusual for him and he has only been doing this for a few days; he has not seemed stressed previously at all, nor has he been out much when it is light out, until now.

Due to an ambient temp drop in his tank, I had to get him either a CHE or an infrared, and I chose infrared for being more affordable, I have had to use it to get his ambient temps back to the normal range, could the infrared be a reason for his activity? When I turned it on he did almost immediately come up out of his hot spot, appeared to be looking upward toward the source of heat with his tongue flicking, and went straight into his cool side - - so he switched hides in favor of the one that is receiving added heat.

At this point, I'm not sure what to do in order to get him to eat, other than offer larger prey item because the rat pinkys are smaller than his midsection - - and since he has refused the rat pinkys I have offered, I was considering offering him a fuzzy next.

- His breeder has established him on f/t rat pinkys; he was fed five times at the breeder's.

- His humidity and temperatures are good; his hot side is set to 33C at all times, his cool side is back at 25.5 to 26C after I got the infrared for him, and his humidity is at 60% (75-77% during more humid days).

- Handling has been kept to a minimum, and I have not disturbed the snake.

- He is currently in a 10 gallon baby tank.

- The area around his enclosure is quiet, with very minimal movement/traffic around it.

- His enclosure is clean (no mold, feces, etc), he has not defecated, though I have removed small urates.

- The sides and the back of his tank are covered in black paper.

- He has two identical, low-ceiling plastic hides; with crumpled up paper towels inside; he uses both hides.

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Mine is acting the same way. I had an unsuccesful feed 2 days ago. And she is acting the same way you describe yours acting. She must be hungry as well. Have to wait a few days to attempt again.

UPDATE

Got him an 18 cm plastic plant saucer and cut out an entrance for him using scissors, he already partially checked out the hide but hasn't gone fully in yet. It's /really/ low ceiling and /almost/ touches his back, should be nice and snug for him but he can still maneuver inside of it, I was gonna get him a 25 cm saucer but the store was sold out, I might check again later if they have the 25 cm ones. But, hopefully this is improvement from the medium size plastic RepTech hide that you guys said was too big for him.

I also switched out his red light to a CHE to keep his cool spot at the correct temps, I haven't been able to rig it up yet so for now I have to keep it straight on top of the lid of the tub and just switch it on and off to keep his cool side temp at 25C. His hot spot is set to 32C (plugged to a thermostat) and his humidity, right now, is 80%.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/mTkv3ql.png

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/h8fvj7h.png

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/SCFLFnC.png

HIDE COMPARISON

Old vs new hide setup.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/GUAkx3z.png

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/F4g2uim.png

Such a dinky lil thing.

I believe the others were right about the hide size but another consideration is maybe turning the entries AWAY from the open side of the enclosure. You did cut them a LITTLE open for an animal of his size, so if his nerves are iffy that'll make it feel less like you can peer in on him. But you'd be surprised just how happily they'll cram into seemingly too-tiny houses.

Edit: AKA, turn the hide 90 degrees clockwise so it faces the opaque back wall, and move the water bowl so it shields the path between the two hides. Goal is for the animal to feel like it's unseen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hollowlaughter

Such a dinky lil thing.

I believe the others were right about the hide size but another consideration is maybe turning the entries AWAY from the open side of the enclosure. You did cut them a LITTLE open for an animal of his size, so if his nerves are iffy that'll make it feel less like you can peer in on him. But you'd be surprised just how happily they'll cram into seemingly too-tiny houses.

Edit: AKA, turn the hide 90 degrees clockwise so it faces the opaque back wall, and move the water bowl so it shields the path between the two hides. Goal is for the animal to feel like it's unseen.

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Thanks for pointing that out, his hide is now facing the covered up back wall, I also moved his water dish so that he can feel more shielded.

Definitely a minor thing, but hopefully that + everything else you've done to follow Deborah's hatchling tutorial should get your boy eating once he acclimates to all the enclosure changes that have been happening. Has he used the new hides yet?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hollowlaughter

Definitely a minor thing, but hopefully that + everything else you've done to follow Deborah's hatchling tutorial should get your boy eating once he acclimates to all the enclosure changes that have been happening. Has he used the new hides yet?

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He is using the new hide, and is currently inside it, one thing I noticed after I moved him to the tub is that he's roaming less and stays in hiding again, which I'm taking as a good sign, he seems less strssed.

UPDATE


Offered him a fuzzy just now, didnt think he was gonna take it, and was dead wrong lol. My boy struck almost immediately, coiled, and I closed the lid and left to let him eat in peace.

Thanks for all the support n advice guys!!