Went to the vet -- some things he recommended

Hey, all. I'd like to preface this by saying I've had no issues with Mazikeen's husbandry, no signs of RI's, and she eats like a pig, so this was really just for a check up to make sure she didn't have RI's and maybe do a fecal (She's been holding poop for about 3 weeks now so that didn't happen lol).

He told me a lot of stuff I already knew -- very basic husbandry, which I understood after about a week of researching, like having the cold side around 79-83 and the hot around 85-88, having a hot spot of 88-92, having "bumped up" humidity during shed, etc. One thing he kept insisting adamantly was that I needed to drop the hot side 10-15 degrees at night, which seems super counter-intuitive to me. With the two different heat ranges on either side of the tub, it encourages movement and exercise and they get a sense of autonomy in picking what temperature they want to be at. When I said I had two different sides, he shot me down and immediately replied with, "They're not the smartest, so some stuff you kind of have to do for them or they hurt themselves." Which is just. Why would you let a reptile be in conditions in which they could hurt themselves?

On top of that, she's been deep in shed all weekend, and her humidity's been around 80%. The day before we went, she finally turned dark, so it was literally any day that she was supposed to shed. I told him this as a preface, but he still put enough pressure on her spine for the skin to break open unevenly in several places, and resulted in a bad shed the following day. The vet glared at me like it was my fault she was shedding in his hands and complained about how low my humidity must be. He also wanted me to add rocks to her enclosure.

With how much he was talking AT me instead of TO me, I felt like I didn't really get to explain my husbandry that well. I should have just whipped out my phone and showed him pictures, but hindsight is always 20/20.

I've never had experience with a reptile vet before, and I'm not really sure how things are supposed to go. I know he was feeling her belly for hard lumps, and handling her a bit roughly was necessary for that level of examination.

So, here's the question: is there supposed to be a drop in temperatures at night? From what I've seen on the forum and various other sources, that seems to be an older style of doing things that isn't endorsed anymore. Why is that?

We don't do it. Never have honestly. All our snakes are fine and live in racks.

As well was he a vet who specialized in reptiles or just one who "also saw them". We don't have option A where I live but we have option B and it's a mess.

Off topic have you tried a gentle warm soak to get her to poop? Sometimes we need to give a snake a 15 minute soak to loosen things up lol

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monks98

We don't do it. Never have honestly. All our snakes are fine and live in racks.

As well was he a vet who specialized in reptiles or just one who "also saw them". We don't have option A where I live but we have option B and it's a mess.

Off topic have you tried a gentle warm soak to get her to poop? Sometimes we need to give a snake a 15 minute soak to loosen things up lol

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

---

See, that's what I thought, so that's why I'm asking. I'm not really sure what to believe right now and it kind of frazzled me (I'm a pretty anxious person anyways so that's not really hard to do unfortunately lol).

None of the vets in my area have a special certification for reptiles, so he's probably just one that "sees them". Basically the only reason I went was to try to get a fecal or at least scheduled for when she did poop and the RI thing. :/

Not yet on the soak; she's not got a major sausage booty yet so I'm worried about it at this time. If she doesn't go soon I may have to try it though. Thanks for your insight!

If you are comfortable with it you can use a credit card or bank card to open the snakes mouth and look inside. There will be signs if RI if one is present. I have dealt with 2 RI's in our snake time. One snake made it the other didnt. The vet was next to no help in either case though he claimed he "knew" reptiles.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monks98

If you are comfortable with it you can use a credit card or bank card to open the snakes mouth and look inside. There will be signs if RI if one is present. I have dealt with 2 RI's in our snake time. One snake made it the other didnt. The vet was next to no help in either case though he claimed he "knew" reptiles.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

---

I've popped her mouth open two times with q-tips and didn't see anything -- like I said, this was just a check-up to see if all was well. He gave her an all-clear on that one, and cooed over her cute belly (it's super cute) and how pretty her teeth are, so at least there was that lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starscream

Hey, all. I'd like to preface this by saying I've had no issues with Mazikeen's husbandry, no signs of RI's, and she eats like a pig, so this was really just for a check up to make sure she didn't have RI's and maybe do a fecal (She's been holding poop for about 3 weeks now so that didn't happen lol).

He told me a lot of stuff I already knew -- very basic husbandry, which I understood after about a week of researching, like having the cold side around 79-83 and the hot around 85-88, having a hot spot of 88-92, having "bumped up" humidity during shed, etc. One thing he kept insisting adamantly was that I needed to drop the hot side 10-15 degrees at night, which seems super counter-intuitive to me. With the two different heat ranges on either side of the tub, it encourages movement and exercise and they get a sense of autonomy in picking what temperature they want to be at. When I said I had two different sides, he shot me down and immediately replied with, "They're not the smartest, so some stuff you kind of have to do for them or they hurt themselves." Which is just. Why would you let a reptile be in conditions in which they could hurt themselves?

On top of that, she's been deep in shed all weekend, and her humidity's been around 80%. The day before we went, she finally turned dark, so it was literally any day that she was supposed to shed. I told him this as a preface, but he still put enough pressure on her spine for the skin to break open unevenly in several places, and resulted in a bad shed the following day. The vet glared at me like it was my fault she was shedding in his hands and complained about how low my humidity must be. He also wanted me to add rocks to her enclosure.

With how much he was talking AT me instead of TO me, I felt like I didn't really get to explain my husbandry that well. I should have just whipped out my phone and showed him pictures, but hindsight is always 20/20.

I've never had experience with a reptile vet before, and I'm not really sure how things are supposed to go. I know he was feeling her belly for hard lumps, and handling her a bit roughly was necessary for that level of examination.

So, here's the question: is there supposed to be a drop in temperatures at night? From what I've seen on the forum and various other sources, that seems to be an older style of doing things that isn't endorsed anymore. Why is that?

---

I would try to find someone else in your area. I would never put up with someone like the vet you described. Hopefully you can find someone else in you're area for "routine" checkups.

Im a new owner and have no intention of changing my BPs heat gradient at night,

that reptile vet sounds scary

there is no need to drop temps at night. what would this practice even provide?

"well tttaylorrr, it mimics their natural environment!"
there's nothing "natural" about my snakes living in boxes in my bedroom with thermostats, heaters, fake plant and temperature gauges.

"They're not the smartest, so some stuff you kind of have to do for them or they hurt themselves."
how exactly does dropping temperatures help them? how does NOT doing so hurt them?
"Well what if they're too hot!?"
they know where their cool side is, and regulated temperatures make any "too hot" scenario non-existent.

stay far, far away from that vet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dylan815

I would try to find someone else in your area. I would never put up with someone like the vet you described. Hopefully you can find someone else in you're area for "routine" checkups.

---

That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure if I was overreacting or if this was the norm or what. We're gonna start looking for another vet again, because both me and roommate have decided that this guy is definitely not for us. Thank you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

there is no need to drop temps at night. what would this practice even provide?

"well tttaylorrr, it mimics their natural environment!"
there's nothing "natural" about my snakes living in boxes in my bedroom with thermostats, heaters, fake plant and temperature gauges.

"They're not the smartest, so some stuff you kind of have to do for them or they hurt themselves."
how exactly does dropping temperatures help them? how does NOT doing so hurt them?
"Well what if they're too hot!?"
they know where their cool side is, and regulated temperatures make any "too hot" scenario non-existent.

stay far, far away from that vet.

---

You're the best :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ebbanflo

Im a new owner and have no intention of changing my BPs heat gradient at night,

that reptile vet sounds scary

---

My thoughts exactly, man. it definitely threw me for a loop when he said it, and they left a message for me today asking if I'd "updated her temps to their recommendations" like I don't even want to pick up the phone now, thank you bye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

there is no need to drop temps at night. what would this practice even provide?

"well tttaylorrr, it mimics their natural environment!"
there's nothing "natural" about my snakes living in boxes in my bedroom with thermostats, heaters, fake plant and temperature gauges.

"They're not the smartest, so some stuff you kind of have to do for them or they hurt themselves."
how exactly does dropping temperatures help them?
"what if they're hot!?"
they know where their cool side is, and regulated temperatures make any "too hot" scenario non-existent.

stay far, far away from that vet.

---

THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT I WAS THINKING I've been frustrated for two days now trying to articulate everything and this pretty much sums it up. Don't like him. Don't want to go back. :/

Here is my two cents on most vets. You need them to prescribe medicine and you need them to do cultures. A real reptile vet is hard to find. A reptile vet that knows specific things about whatever you are keeping is next to impossible to find. I had some pretty in-depth discussions with one of the best guys in my area recently and it just reinforced my belief that a vet may know more about the anatomy and biology of an animal, but it is the large keepers and breeders that you should really pay attention to when it come to husbandry and behavior. Many of the "reptile vets" don't keep one snake let alone a large collection. All they know is read from a book. I have read a few vet textbooks on reptiles and I will tell you that scientifically we know very little and the books tend to be pathetic when it comes to a particular species. Though this particular vet is probably one of the best vets I have dealt with in the reptile arena, I still ended up getting in a heated discussion about white rats. He insisted that feeding ball pythons brown rats would make them feed better because that is the color of the prey in the wild. I told him that ball pythons fixate on a prey item, and that while a brown rat may induce a wild caught animal to eat, most of my captive bred animals have never even seen a brown rat and they eat and grow just fine. Personally I don't believe the whole color of the rat thing, I think their fixations have more to do with smell as anyone that has converted from mice to rats has experience with. I have successfully taken care of hundreds of animals of the same species. Who know more about husbandry, me or the vet that has never had a pet ball python?

Long story short, if you need lab work done, meds prescribed, or attention given to an injury you cannot handle, see a vet. Otherwise talk to the experienced people here.

I can't imagine having a vet talk to me/treat my pet like that. I'm still a new owner myself and definitely not a genius on the subject of reptiles or snakes, but I would be very upset, and would definitely take my business elsewhere. If that's not an option, I understand though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starscream

One thing he kept insisting adamantly was that I needed to drop the hot side 10-15 degrees at night, which seems super counter-intuitive to me. With the two different heat ranges on either side of the tub, it encourages movement and exercise and they get a sense of autonomy in picking what temperature they want to be at. When I said I had two different sides, he shot me down and immediately replied with, "They're not the smartest, so some stuff you kind of have to do for them or they hurt themselves." Which is just. Why would you let a reptile be in conditions in which they could hurt themselves?

So, here's the question: is there supposed to be a drop in temperatures at night? From what I've seen on the forum and various other sources, that seems to be an older style of doing things that isn't endorsed anymore. Why is that?

---

This sounds like a very judgemental veterinarian and seeing as your husbandry as you describe it is more or less "on point", he could have conveyed his thoughts in a much friendlier manner. As previous posters have noted, there are some great reptile veterinarians, but they are hard to find. For every good reptile vet, there are probably 10 poor ones. Veterinary school has also sadly become "politicized" to some degree and misinformation is being spread even among medical professionals in the veterinary field. For example, most vets will recommend spay / neuter in dogs, even though it has been shown that spaying or neutering a large breed dog too early shows a marked increased risk of osteosarcoma.

That said, there is some merit to what your vet has suggested. I will start by saying a drop at night time is not necessary for good husbandry in the vast majority of cases. The animal will thrive, especially following feeding with 24/7 access to an appropriate hot spot. In some cases of multi-animal encloses it can even be necessary as co-inhabitants will establish a "basking schedule" based on order of dominance. That said there are two things I will note:

1. If a snake has access to an area that is dangerously hot, there are many anecdotal reports of snakes burning themselves from prolonged contact even thought common sense would dictate that an animal burning itself would just move to a cooler / non-burning location. This is not to suggest you had a dangerous location in your enclosure, just that there is some merit to the "snakes aren't the smartest" mentality.

2. A night drop can be of merit to snakes fighting off certainly infections. Many virus strains have an optimal temperature at which they reproduce best, for example, reptarenaviruses (such as those heavily suspected of being the cause of IBD in boid snakes) reproduce best at around 86 F. This is right around thermoregulatory temperature for most reptiles so it is easy to see why they are a natural host. If a reptile hugs its hot spot 90% of the time, while create for digestion, it is also the perfect temperature for viral spread. I believe there was a report of someone with an ill snake and their vet recommended removing his heat for 24-48 hours and see if that helped him improve. The rationale for this suggestion is based on temperatures preferred by a variety of viruses. Thus, if the snakes body temperature is dropped to ~70-75 F, it can probably fight off such an infection easier. Now, there are a variety of viruses that have different optimal temperatures, so having a night drop that modulates the snakes temperature somewhat may help a snake in fighting off certain infections. I don't know of an academic study that has weighed the pros and cons of a night drop in captive conditions, but I suspect there are pros and cons to both approaches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

there is no need to drop temps at night. what would this practice even provide?

"well tttaylorrr, it mimics their natural environment!"
there's nothing "natural" about my snakes living in boxes in my bedroom with thermostats, heaters, fake plant and temperature gauges.

"They're not the smartest, so some stuff you kind of have to do for them or they hurt themselves."
how exactly does dropping temperatures help them? how does NOT doing so hurt them?
"Well what if they're too hot!?"
they know where their cool side is, and regulated temperatures make any "too hot" scenario non-existent.

stay far, far away from that vet.

---

I second this...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Here is my two cents on most vets. You need them to prescribe medicine and you need them to do cultures. A real reptile vet is hard to find. A reptile vet that knows specific things about whatever you are keeping is next to impossible to find. I had some pretty in-depth discussions with one of the best guys in my area recently and it just reinforced my belief that a vet may know more about the anatomy and biology of an animal, but it is the large keepers and breeders that you should really pay attention to when it come to husbandry and behavior. Many of the "reptile vets" don't keep one snake let alone a large collection. All they know is read from a book. I have read a few vet textbooks on reptiles and I will tell you that scientifically we know very little and the books tend to be pathetic when it comes to a particular species. Though this particular vet is probably one of the best vets I have dealt with in the reptile arena, I still ended up getting in a heated discussion about white rats. He insisted that feeding ball pythons brown rats would make them feed better because that is the color of the prey in the wild. I told him that ball pythons fixate on a prey item, and that while a brown rat may induce a wild caught animal to eat, most of my captive bred animals have never even seen a brown rat and they eat and grow just fine. Personally I don't believe the whole color of the rat thing, I think their fixations have more to do with smell as anyone that has converted from mice to rats has experience with. I have successfully taken care of hundreds of animals of the same species. Who know more about husbandry, me or the vet that has never had a pet ball python?

Long story short, if you need lab work done, meds prescribed, or attention given to an injury you cannot handle, see a vet. Otherwise talk to the experienced people here.

---

...and this.

Very good stuff here, thanks tttaylorrr and JodanOrNoDan

Yeah, dude sounds like a quack. Might require a commute, but you can do better.

I'm very lucky to have my exotics vet and a rapport with her already over the roommate's cats (which since I am the homemaker, I am the main caregiver for). Know she handles some big snakes at this practice (assistant mentioned a 12' patient), and also does field vet work for the Army. Figure if she can handle 12' she can handle my calm lil 3' guy.

Vets often have strong opinions, just like all people. When a vet lets their opinion override evidence and other valid methods of keeping, that's a problem.

Dropping the temps 15 degrees below the minimum could even be bad for the snake. A healthy animal would probably be fine, but it's not "good" for them in any way(except isolated cases mentioned above).

Use your vet for needed things. Yes, a vet will usually insist on an exam in order to do basic stuff like fecals. Let the vet examine the snake, nod your head, hum in a thoughtful manner and thank them for the advice. Then go home and do what works well for you, that you know from experienced keepers works great for keeping pythons and don't get bothered by the vet's opinions.

It's been nearly two months, and I'm not going to a vet anytime soon, but today I spoke with some local folks in the reptile scene about vets. They all overwhelming recommended a guy that I now plan on going to in the future for Maze's yearly check-up.

And then something interesting happened. I mentioned the name of the practice I went to, and someone who used to work there popped up. She said that the attitude the reptile vet displayed is not only typical of the practice, but also just an inkling of how they treat their employees. So now I'm super glad my instincts screamed at me that his guy is Bad News, because I do NOT want to support a business that treats their employees that badly.

Random update, but. Dang. Was not expecting that, but I'm not exactly surprised.

Get a new vet. Not because he told you what you did not want to hear, because of how he told you it. Vets are 50% psychiatrist, 50% mind reader, and 50% doctor.

Every time I hear about ball pythons native environment I roll my eyes. We do not and cannot keep them in 100% their native environment because we keep them in captivity in teeny tiny houses. This means we need to keep conditions that are safe and close to natural conditions for their continual welfare, yet we do base care on native conditions to get baselines.

Ball pythons do not benefit from temperature drops because in their native habitat they do not encounter wild temperature swings like say a North American snake does. As such there is nothing in a captive setting that needs to be done to provide well being to a evolutionary survival trait like what say a western diamondback rattlesnake needs. As such there is no genetic predisposition to nightly temperature drops because that does not exist where they evolved at.

All ball pythons do is thermoregulate like every other ectothermic reptile. Excluding what you do to get them in the mood for love ;)

I would have been out of there at breaking the skin. And I would have been snarky back the entire time lol. That's just me though.

The vet sounds like a douche canoe without paddles. Ugh!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

I would have been out of there at breaking the skin. And I would have been snarky back the entire time lol. That's just me though.

The vet sounds like a douche canoe without paddles. Ugh!

---

I'm too polite for my own good lol. Although I think I started giving him the stink eye at some point. I'm not good at keeping my emotions off my face. lol.

Yeah, defo glad I found the local reptile group on FB. Apparently most vets in the area have about the same amount of "expertise" -- which is to say, next to none. Oh, well. They can't all be good eggs.

Quote:

---

When I said I had two different sides (for thermoregulation), he shot me down and immediately replied with, "They're not the smartest, so some stuff you kind of have to do for them or they hurt themselves."

---

'not smart enough' Yeah, well this is nonsense. Their nervous system is quite different than ours. Obviously, in many ways, our nervous systems are far more sophisticated...but not in temperature regulation and some other areas critical to the DNA of pythons. They are FAR SUPERIOR NERVOUS SYSTEM FOR HEAT SENSE AND THERMO-REGULATION! Humans comparatively are terrible at it. A wild snake will sense heat from a distance even, follow the heat signature and find it as needed. Wild snakes are often found in homes, curled up near the water heater of homes. Pythons even have heat-sensing pits on their faces, I mean come on! They are awesome at heat sense, second only to vipers I would guess.

So for him to suggest a snake is not smart enough to thermoregulate means he is clueless about reptiles in general.

Sorry you had such a poor experience! I would also recommend finding a good reptile vet - the closest to me is 2 hours away but the drive would be worth it.

I work in the veterinary field and there is no excuse for a vet to talk at you not to you, granted they probably were rushed and started to vent facts they learned at some point instead of listening to their clients, but you should never feel like you can't talk to someone. A good veterinarian should be open and listen to your history, even if you were doing something wrong they should correct you in a professional manner and also explain the 'whys' behind their advise. Even if it is a bit of a long haul you should try and find someone you are comfortable with, it will make all the difference for you and your pet :)

I also keep a "medical file" on mine where I record temps and humidity (used to be daily before the AP cage, now weekly), food offered (size, gender, brand, whether eaten or not), bowl movements / urates, shed dates, and any other notes that I need. This way should he ever need a vet I can give them his history in a format that they understand and can follow - also helps me to learn his patterns. I know this isn't realistic for large collections but it helps me lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crowfingers

Sorry you had such a poor experience! I would also recommend finding a good reptile vet - the closest to me is 2 hours away but the drive would be worth it.

I work in the veterinary field and there is no excuse for a vet to talk at you not to you, granted they probably were rushed and started to vent facts they learned at some point instead of listening to their clients, but you should never feel like you can't talk to someone. A good veterinarian should be open and listen to your history, even if you were doing something wrong they should correct you in a professional manner and also explain the 'whys' behind their advise. Even if it is a bit of a long haul you should try and find someone you are comfortable with, it will make all the difference for you and your pet :)

---

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crowfingers

I also keep a "medical file" on mine where I record temps and humidity (used to be daily before the AP cage, now weekly), food offered (size, gender, brand, whether eaten or not), bowl movements / urates, shed dates, and any other notes that I need. This way should he ever need a vet I can give them his history in a format that they understand and can follow - also helps me to learn his patterns. I know this isn't realistic for large collections but it helps me lol

---

Yeah, I keep a calendar with all of Maze's important dates. Feeding, sheds, cleaning. I don't record the weights of the rats, but I put down what size they were listed at and how many. Also keep track of her weight, but that's a given. I've been working on organizing it all into nice little spreadsheets for sharing/personal organization purposes. Will definitely try to remember to share them with the next vet I see.

(And I have picked out a new one with a very good reputation in the local reptile community. He's 1:15 away but it's worth it to get actual helpful feedback instead of condescension.)

glad you got a second opinion on this vet besides our own views. it's nice to have validation of your feelings, right? that's also nice that you have a local community you can talk to, i'm honestly jealous!!!

your guts were right. that vet is traaaaaash. [emoji14]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

glad you got a second opinion on this vet besides our own views. it's nice to have validation of your feelings, right? that's also nice that you have a local community you can talk to, i'm honestly jealous!!!

your guts were right. that vet is traaaaaash. [emoji14]

---

LMAO a liiiiiittle. ok, maybe a lot nice. As for the local community thing, I just got curious one day and started searching '*town* reptile' and who've thought, a whole group of folks keeping herps locally. it's also a classifieds group so i can maybe nab some cheap decorations/cages in the future 👀

been trying to listen to my instincts more lately. glad it's working? lol