Switching from live mice to Frozen/Thawed?

Hey everyone,

I have recently taken ownership of a 4 year old Ball Python! He was re-homed to me after my GFs family didnt have the room for him anymore.
I have done tons and tons of research in the weeks before receiving him (as well as taking advice from previous owners, although I have changed many things), and have made sure that all of his needs are being met. He is the sweetest most docile snake ever and seems to already be comfortable in his new home

The only thing is that the previous owners only fed him live mice, and all of the research that I have done seems to point to the fact that f/t is much better. He has been eating this way all his life for 4 years, and I am worried that he will not be able to make the switch after getting so used to live.
I have only had him for a few weeks, and have fed him twice so far. I have fed him live mice only because I am not sure how to begin switching him over.

I have read/watched many different sources explaining how one may get a snake to switch over. Just looking for more information or if anyone has had past experience with something like this!

Thank you!:snake:

I honestly might just stick with live. If it's what he's used too getting all the time. Have you tried to offer frozen yet?


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Mice? He's four and hes not on rats?

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Originally Posted by monks98

Mice? He's four and hes not on rats?

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you never know monks98, i have a 4 year old ball that just recently made his way to rats. :-/ He has been a bad feeder since he was just a little guy. Now he'd doing better and accepting one small/medium rat every 5-7 weeks.

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Originally Posted by dylan815

you never know monks98, i have a 4 year old ball that just recently made his way to rats. :-/ He has been a bad feeder since he was just a little guy. Now he'd doing better and accepting one small/medium rat every 5-7 weeks.

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We do have one mouser. So I know it happens. But our guy is stunted and prone to illness because he has never eaten what he should or in correct quantities. Where I live F/T is the only legal way to obtain rats so I have done a fair bit of switching from live to F/T. Only snakes on mice right now is our mouser and our 2 month old hatchlings.

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No not yet. I've heard many different techniques of trying to switch them over but it seems like the major commitment is patience. I havent had him for too long so Ive wanted to feed him the way hes used to before trying to make a swtich.

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Originally Posted by ebbanflo

I have read/watched many different sources explaining how one may get a snake to switch over. Just looking for more information or if anyone has had past experience with something like this! Thank you!:snake:

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O' Zinc!!!

No hes not, but i only feed him adult mice because thats what his previous owners have done. Ive researched and also considered switching him to rats.

I read that the food should only be an inch larger than the largest part of the BPs body. is that not true?

also thank you all for the responses so helpful so far!

I think %15 is a good number to go by. so nothing bigger than %15 of the snakes body weight, I'm sure someone on here can verify that number. Maybe try switching him up to rats depending on his weight. If he's used to being fed live and hes never had a problem with it for the last 4 years, keep feeding live. I guess you won't really know for sure if he'll even take f/t unless you give it a shot.

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Originally Posted by monks98

We do have one mouser. So I know it happens. But our guy is stunted and prone to illness because he has never eaten what he should or in correct quantities. Where I live F/T is the only legal way to obtain rats so I have done a fair bit of switching from live to F/T. Only snakes on mice right now is our mouser and our 2 month old hatchlings.

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How long did it take for them to switch over? Also how would you recommend beginning the switch process?

and aww 2 month olds!

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Originally Posted by dylan815

I think %15 is a good number to go by. so nothing bigger than %15 of the snakes body weight, I'm sure someone on here can verify that number. Maybe try switching him up to rats depending on his weight. If he's used to being fed live and hes never had a problem with it for the last 4 years, keep feeding live. I guess you won't really know for sure if he'll even take f/t unless you give it a shot.

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True. I guess I am dealing with the 'humane' aspect of it, (or I guess relative humane treatment). I don't have a problem buying live mice for him but I've heard f/t are safer in terms of health and because he wont have to deal with killing it, thus potentially getting hurt. He seems to never have an issue, but I still worry about it while I watch him.

I also feed in a separate enclosure because thats what his previous owners did. Dont know about opinions on that.

It took one snake 6 months. It took another 3 weeks. It really depended on the snake!! Persistance is key but we also follow an offer 3 weeks in a row take 1 week where we don't offer at all. As well as temperature matters a lot to most our snakes. We have a laser reader and we had to temp some rats at the start because the snakes will not eat them cool. Also invest in long tongs because the rat dance (hold them by the tail and wiggle it) can mean some pretty wild strikes. You will be able to tell if the snake is interested pretty quickly. Start with the easy and basic heat and wiggle method first. If that doesn't work there are other ways but sometimes thats all it takes :)

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how long it would take depends on the snake. I'd start by not feeding for a week or two so he's nice an hungry. Let you f/t mouse defrost on your counter or where ever, just don't ever microwave a frozen rodent. I like to warm up a mug of hot water in the microwave and then put the mouse in a bag and leave in hot water for 20 mins or so. after its thawed and has been warmed up by the water offer it to your snake. you might try moving it around to mimic a live mouse. if he takes it move it around to simulate a struggle when he coils up on it. If this doesnt work you might try fresh killed, it's a little more violent but it might be needed to segway to frozen thawed?

We also feed every snake in thier tubs. No one gets moved :)

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Originally Posted by ebbanflo

True. I guess I am dealing with the 'humane' aspect of it, (or I guess relative humane treatment). I don't have a problem buying live mice for him but I've heard f/t are safer in terms of health and because he wont have to deal with killing it, thus potentially getting hurt. He seems to never have an issue, but I still worry about it while I watch him.

I also feed in a separate enclosure because thats what his previous owners did. Dont know about opinions on that.

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Feeding in a separate enclosure can be a good thing for smaller snakes. It helps to keep them from associating their tank opening and you reaching in with getting fed. That way they only expect to be fed when they are put in their special "dinner" box. :) I feed in a separate enclosure for my boa and my ball python. You can run into problems finding a large enough container to feed a big retic or burm in though!

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Originally Posted by dylan815

how long it would take depends on the snake. I'd start by not feeding for a week or two so he's nice an hungry. Let you f/t mouse defrost on your counter or where ever, just don't ever microwave a frozen rodent. I like to warm up a mug of hot water in the microwave and then put the mouse in a bag and leave in hot water for 20 mins or so. after its thawed and has been warmed up by the water offer it to your snake. you might try moving it around to mimic a live mouse. if he takes it move it around to simulate a struggle when he coils up on it. If this doesnt work you might try fresh killed, it's a little more violent but it might be needed to segway to frozen thawed?

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Thank you for the advice!

Ive heard fresh killed but unsure about the process, what does that involve?

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Originally Posted by dylan815

Feeding in a separate enclosure can be a good thing for smaller snakes. It helps to keep them from associating their tank opening and you reaching in with getting fed. That way they only expect to be fed when they are put in their special "dinner" box. :) I feed in a separate enclosure for my boa and my ball python. You can run into problems finding a large enough container to feed a big retic or burm in though!

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This is a relief to hear! And damn I would love to have a boa as well I've only had my BP for a few weeks and I'm obsessed!!!

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Originally Posted by monks98

It took one snake 6 months. It took another 3 weeks. It really depended on the snake!! Persistance is key but we also follow an offer 3 weeks in a row take 1 week where we don't offer at all. As well as temperature matters a lot to most our snakes. We have a laser reader and we had to temp some rats at the start because the snakes will not eat them cool. Also invest in long tongs because the rat dance (hold them by the tail and wiggle it) can mean some pretty wild strikes. You will be able to tell if the snake is interested pretty quickly. Start with the easy and basic heat and wiggle method first. If that doesn't work there are other ways but sometimes thats all it takes :)

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thank you! I just fed him yesterday, I am going to try this out starting next week with your technique!

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Originally Posted by monks98

We also feed every snake in thier tubs. No one gets moved :)

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have you ever had issues with the snakes confusing food time with being taken out of the enclosure to hang out?

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Originally Posted by ebbanflo

have you ever had issues with the snakes confusing food time with being taken out of the enclosure to hang out?

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Not even once :) only ones that strike are the babies and thats just because thats just what they do haha

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebbanflo

Thank you for the advice!

Ive heard fresh killed but unsure about the process, what does that involve?

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This is a relief to hear! And damn I would love to have a boa as well I've only had my BP for a few weeks and I'm obsessed!!!

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Fresh killed can be kinda messy for you. You might not have it in you to do it. Bassicaly all you do is kill the mouse so the snake doesn't have to. This protects the snake and kills the mouse faster than then snake can. You just take your mouse and grab firmly bring its head and at the base of its tail. Then quick and hard pull in opposite directions and you will break the mouses neck. It's not to much fun to do to a poor little mouse so it's not very common. Other people who do fresh killed often make little co2 gas chambers to gas out the mice. That's problebly the most humane way to do it. So that's what fresh killed is. I'm not a huge fan of it, makes me feel bad after. But you asked. :-/


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebbanflo

have you ever had issues with the snakes confusing food time with being taken out of the enclosure to hang out?

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Originally Posted by monks98

Not even once :) only ones that strike are the babies and thats just because thats just what they do haha

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OP "cage aggression" is a common myth. i, nor anyone here, have ever had a snake learn that hand = food. feeding in a separate enclosure provides no benefit to the snake or keeper and can cause more problems than it solves.

feed in the enclosure.

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Originally Posted by dylan815

Fresh killed can be kinda messy for you. You might not have it in you to do it. Bassicaly all you do is kill the mouse so the snake doesn't have to. This protects the snake and kills the mouse faster than then snake can. You just take your mouse and grab firmly bring its head and at the base of its tail. Then quick and hard pull in opposite directions and you will break the mouses neck. It's not to much fun to do to a poor little mouse so it's not very common. Other people who do fresh killed often make little co2 gas chambers to gas out the mice. That's problebly the most humane way to do it. So that's what fresh killed is. I'm not a huge fan of it, makes me feel bad after. But you asked. :-/


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thank you for explaining, defintely interseting in the conquest for f/t, the thing im worried about the most is the fact that hes so used to movement before the kill, maybe the heat of the freshly killed will confuse it if I can get it to 'dance' enough to seem life like.

still intense tho, but again, circle of life right..

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Originally Posted by ebbanflo

thank you for explaining, defintely interseting in the conquest for f/t, the thing im worried about the most is the fact that hes so used to movement before the kill, maybe the heat of the freshly killed will confuse it if I can get it to 'dance' enough to seem life like.

still intense tho, but again, circle of life right..

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Yes, the mouse is still the same temp exactly as it was when it was alive.


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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

OP "cage aggression" is a common myth. i, nor anyone here, have ever had a snake learn that hand = food. feeding in a separate enclosure provides no benefit to the snake or keeper and can cause more problems than it solves.

feed in the enclosure.

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Would you suggest that the next time I feed I just do it in the enclosure? Should I worry about him being confused about whats happening?

Sorry super new to a lot of this still!!

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Originally Posted by ebbanflo

Would you suggest that the next time I feed I just do it in the enclosure? Should I worry about him being confused about whats happening?

Sorry super new to a lot of this still!!

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absolutely. as soon as he smells the prey item, he'll know what's up. there's no confusion once he takes a whiff.

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Originally Posted by ebbanflo

Would you suggest that the next time I feed I just do it in the enclosure? Should I worry about him being confused about whats happening?

Sorry super new to a lot of this still!!

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A human and a rat or mouse smell different, have different temps generally and move different. I have been bitten by one of our BPs but it wasn't during feeding at all and it was partially my fault and partially inevitable. We thaw all our rats IN our snake room for 2 or 3 hours prior to a hot water dunk to get the snakes riled up. And even doing that I have still never been bitten and once or twice a snake will come out of its tub looking and it needs to be picked up and placed back in by hand.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

absolutely. as soon as he smells the prey item, he'll know what's up. there's no confusion once he takes a whiff.

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I guess I've had different experiences with feeding in a separate container. When I had my baby red tail I always fed her in a separate contain. She's never taken a nip at me except when she's in that container. Even if I put her in there and don't have mice out or smell like them she'll come flying out to bite at me if I take the lid off.


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Originally Posted by dylan815

I guess I've had different experiences with feeding in a separate container. When I had my baby red tail I always fed her in a separate contain. She's never taken a nip at me except when she's in that container. Even if I put her in there and don't have mice out or smell like them she'll come flying out to bite at me if I take the lid off.


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INteresting. I will defintely report back after feeding in the enclosure next time around to let you all know if anything strange or unusual happened.

Update! My BP Jake after two weeks of refusing has taken f/t mice! Just had to move it around to trick him a little ;) thanks for all help!!


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