Things have changed

Back about 4-5 years ago I got my first hatchling BP. Read husbandry advice til my eyes bled and talked and listened to those in the know til my head exploded and mouth ached. Wanted to know everything I could. The advice I was given then seems to be different now.

Then: 10-15 degree temp drop at night (done this since day 1)
Now: Not needed nor desireable
Then: Feed snake in a separate enclosure (done this since day 1)
Now: Don't feed in separate enclosure
Then: 35-40% humidity and bump to 60% ish when shedding (also followed since day 1)
Now: 50-60 normal and 70+ when shedding

Some other small differences from what I first learned but not significant. Point is my first normal BP is almost 5 years old and just shy of 5', eating a steady diet of 1 large rat every 14-18 days (day old baby chicks every 6 feedings) has never went off food, always one piece sheds, never bitten or even struck, loves to be handled, never been sick or had mites or anything, and totally understands when she in the feed box what is about to happen vs just being taken out to snuggle.

So I guess I am just wondering why the change in advice seems so different. What I was originally taught has seemed to work as Theo (yeah thought it was he when I got her) has turned out to be a very healthy animal. I also have a 5 year old male that I care for the same way with the same results. Behavior is typical BP in both animals. Is it a go with what has worked or should I consider updating my husbandry?

wow. If I am being honest, the incredible differences between the way you have handled your BPs and the way people are recommending handling them these days is STARK at the least. My gut instinct tells me why fix what clearly isn't broken? The next thought is that (I havent gotten a BP yet, but I am in that research phase right now myself) the way you do it clearly seems to work well and is also somewhat easier than the recommendations that are being given today. If I could get such great results by maintaining an easier-to-care-for animal....I don't see why I would. Kudos on your awesome, healthy friends!

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Originally Posted by JimHjr

Back about 4-5 years ago I got my first hatchling BP. Read husbandry advice til my eyes bled and talked and listened to those in the know til my head exploded and mouth ached. Wanted to know everything I could. The advice I was given then seems to be different now.

Then: 10-15 degree temp drop at night (done this since day 1)
Now: Not needed nor desireable
Then: Feed snake in a separate enclosure (done this since day 1)
Now: Don't feed in separate enclosure
Then: 35-40% humidity and bump to 60% ish when shedding (also followed since day 1)
Now: 50-60 normal and 70+ when shedding

Some other small differences from what I first learned but not significant. Point is my first normal BP is almost 5 years old and just shy of 5', eating a steady diet of 1 large rat every 14-18 days (day old baby chicks every 6 feedings) has never went off food, always one piece sheds, never bitten or even struck, loves to be handled, never been sick or had mites or anything, and totally understands when she in the feed box what is about to happen vs just being taken out to snuggle.

So I guess I am just wondering why the change in advice seems so different. What I was originally taught has seemed to work as Theo (yeah thought it was he when I got her) has turned out to be a very healthy animal. I also have a 5 year old male that I care for the same way with the same results. Behavior is typical BP in both animals. Is it a go with what has worked or should I consider updating my husbandry?

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I suggest sticking with mostly with what works for you and your animals. A lot of people will go 50/50 on these topics, especially tub feeding (I tub feed but I get a lot of people are very against it. I do it for the structure change and routine. I have a blind male who i don't tank feed because he really won't be able to learn what is me. V.s. what is prey. And trust me he knows exactly what that tub is for. Especially since i super scent the feeding tub with his mice and he goes instantly into hunt mode the second he touches it).
5yrs is a long time of routine to change a feeding schedule. You'll get suggestions of switching to feeding every 7 days instead.

In the end, the only thing I would suggest in changing is your humidity levels a bit higher.
Good luck with your journey!

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with our society being more connected than ever, we have the ability to share knowledge and compare our own experiences in the blink of an eye. over time, people in the hobby - whether new or old - were able to narrow down new methods which established these new "rules" which seemed to help a broader spectrum of keepers.

there's a wonderful post somewhere on here titled "Zen and the Art of Snake Keeping" that shares a beautiful story about this very topic.

bottom line: information, technology, and common knowledge are ever-changing in a world where we can communicate instantly. however, something i feel very strongly about, what works for me may not work for you, but neither of us is wrong. there's more than one way to cook a potato. when it comes to new keepers, it's better to have them learn these "strict rules" until they're truly knowledgeable with their husbandry and keeping where they can experiment and decide what works for them, which i always encourage.

just my 2 cents. [emoji4]

You will find dramatic shifts in opinion (albeit if you don't know it's opinion some would think it was law how some people act) regarding husbandry and routines. I've kept boas, ball pythons and burmese pythons off and on since the early 90s. I've had times of success, times of failure, been given advice, shared advice. The biggest thing most keepers need to keep in mind is not everything works for everyone, and your post is an example of that.

It hasn't really changed all that much. Ten years ago there were people advocating exactly what we say now, or different things. There's still folks who think it's best to tub feed, or not.

If you have a healthy snake with your care, then it's working well for you.

If you go back far enough, you'd see unregulated heat rocks in glass tanks being the norm. Things change over time. I'm sure there's plenty of people who still keep snakes in tanks with unregulated heat rocks.

Giving a temperature difference seems like a good idea... more "natural" and all. But is it needed? Not really. Same for the rest. I don't think any of it was harmful or even that today's methods are better.

All that matters is that you have a healthy happy pet.

What you are doing works for you, and as far as I am concerned safe. The only thing if anything I would change would be humidity. If you have one animal and you are paying attention you know when to bump up the humidity. I have a lot of animals, and I may miss the beginning of a shed cycle so my humidity is always up.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

If you have one animal and you are paying attention you know when to bump up the humidity.

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I have one other BP, A BCC RTB, California King Snake, and a Sand Boa. Along with white's Australian tree frogs, pac-man frog, Fire belly toads, green tree frogs, Asian forest scorpion, and Chilean rose hair tarantula. Despite the abundance of animals I'm in a daily regimen of condition checking.

I recently got a reptifogger for my BCC and think I will DIY a splitter with a gang valve and flexible hose to humidify the BP's and King. It runs on a cheap mech timer for 1 hour every 4 hours and It has helped keep my big boa comfy so I spose a slight increase wont hurt the BPs.

Thanks for all the responses. I do have a very happy healthy animal.

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Originally Posted by JimHjr

Back about 4-5 years ago I got my first hatchling BP. Read husbandry advice til my eyes bled and talked and listened to those in the know til my head exploded and mouth ached. Wanted to know everything I could. The advice I was given then seems to be different now.

Then: 10-15 degree temp drop at night (done this since day 1)
Now: Not needed nor desireable
Then: Feed snake in a separate enclosure (done this since day 1)
Now: Don't feed in separate enclosure
Then: 35-40% humidity and bump to 60% ish when shedding (also followed since day 1)
Now: 50-60 normal and 70+ when shedding

Some other small differences from what I first learned but not significant. Point is my first normal BP is almost 5 years old and just shy of 5', eating a steady diet of 1 large rat every 14-18 days (day old baby chicks every 6 feedings) has never went off food, always one piece sheds, never bitten or even struck, loves to be handled, never been sick or had mites or anything, and totally understands when she in the feed box what is about to happen vs just being taken out to snuggle.

So I guess I am just wondering why the change in advice seems so different. What I was originally taught has seemed to work as Theo (yeah thought it was he when I got her) has turned out to be a very healthy animal. I also have a 5 year old male that I care for the same way with the same results. Behavior is typical BP in both animals. Is it a go with what has worked or should I consider updating my husbandry?

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Evolution

I'm curious as to when you tub feed, do you put your BP in there for a few hours/days? I have a healthy male whose 3 1/2 years old (1186g which is good for a male from what I've read) but he's always been an inconsistent feeder. I'm always open to new ideas even if it may not be the accepted norm.

I'd agree with evolution, research, and information dissemination.

However, I think its also important to bear in mind the stricter standards used today are to the animal's benefit since a lot of keepers sit around the fringes of proper husbandry. If we say 70% humidity, then people will let it drop to 65% and not panic. But if we solicit the bare minimum an animal needs, say, 30%, then there will be keepers letting it sit at 25%. There's a reason phrasing like "creeping normality" exists, since it's common enough to require terminology for it.

At the levels given now, it seems preventative. Not every animal may need it, but it helps protect the animals of people with more lax husbandry practices and less experience/concern for their animals. If we get everyone accepting a "bare minimum" of a 20G tank on care sheets, maybe then we'll stop having adult animals crammed into a 10G.

A lot of this will prove out later on, b/c this is a new hobby. A lot of the oldest BPs in the hobby as the same age as I am. When they die at 20 or 30 and these new ones more commonly make it to 40, we'll finally have proof. Not as quickly as say, rodent keepers, would be able to pin down ideal husbandry between generations, but it's a work in progress.

Honestly, though, if you go by any "one" or even two animals of one species, you simply do not have enough of them to connect the dots, so to speak. There are variances in different species and even in different animals of the same species.

What works for one of them, might not work for the other. Only when you care for a large amount of animals of the same species can you realize what works for "most" of them consistently. That still doesn't mean it will work for each single one, though.

When "newbies" ask for help, it is always best to give the most straight forward advice and answers. And that is usually what has been determined to work best for "most" of the animals, because the chance it will work for that particular animal will be the highest.

Unless you have a constant room temperature (instead of heat tapes, radiant panels, etc) most rooms cool down at night. While the actual hot spot usually doesn't get affected by this, the ambient temps do. Most snakes do just fine with that.

While feeding in a different container can (and does) work, I simply don't like it. The snakes often stay in "feeding" mode for quite a while after eating and I do not want to disturb them, handle them, carry them around right after eating. Won't kill them I'm sure, but I just don't see any good sense in it. I do not even think the "aggression factor" plays any role in this or would for me anyhow. Its all about the comfort and stress level. Again, the animal can deal with it most likely, but I just don't see any good reason to do it that way so I don't see any good reason to advice a "newbie" to feed that way.

Evolution is a good way to explain it. Its not actually the evolution in the animal, but in our learning and understanding about what works best for most of this species while kept in captivity.

For years on end its been said not to give a "hot" and exercised horse water, they may colic. Now its understood that the opposite is true. Doesn't mean that every horse got (or will get) dehydrated and sick if water was with held until they were cooled off, but it does mean that it is healthier for them to give water right away and that the old opinion simply isn't advisable anymore after more understanding of their health and needs.

Long story short. If what you do works for you and your animals, there is nothing wrong with sticking with it. But the advice given to people new to the hobby should always be the one that has been proven to be best for most of these particular animals.

Knowledge evolves ;)

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Originally Posted by zina10

Evolution is a good way to explain it. Its not actually the evolution in the animal, but in our learning and understanding about what works best for most of this species while kept in captivity. Knowledge evolves ;)

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Thank you Zina. I couldn't have explained it so eloquently as you! :bow:

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

with our society being more connected than ever, we have the ability to share knowledge and compare our own experiences in the blink of an eye. over time, people in the hobby - whether new or old - were able to narrow down new methods which established these new "rules" which seemed to help a broader spectrum of keepers.

there's a wonderful post somewhere on here titled "Zen and the Art of Snake Keeping" that shares a beautiful story about this very topic.

bottom line: information, technology, and common knowledge are ever-changing in a world where we can communicate instantly. however, something i feel very strongly about, what works for me may not work for you, but neither of us is wrong. there's more than one way to cook a potato. when it comes to new keepers, it's better to have them learn these "strict rules" until they're truly knowledgeable with their husbandry and keeping where they can experiment and decide what works for them, which i always encourage.

just my 2 cents. [emoji4]

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Yep . More than one way to cook a potato sums everything up just dandy !


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I would just add that in my experience moving a Burm / Retic / King snake or a tiny 15" Thai Red Bamboo rat snake from a container back to a viv - after a feed - can be a scary thing !!


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Originally Posted by cron14

I'm curious as to when you tub feed, do you put your BP in there for a few hours/days? I have a healthy male whose 3 1/2 years old (1186g which is good for a male from what I've read) but he's always been an inconsistent feeder. I'm always open to new ideas even if it may not be the accepted norm.

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I put my BPs in the tubs while I am warming their meal up in warm water. They know whats up. Each snake has their own tub. After they have consumed their meal I let them sit for an hour then transfer em back to their habitats. I know Ive read leave em several hours and even up to a couple days but my process seems to work for me. Never had a regurge and they are handled carefully after feeding taking mind not to pick them up by the stomach. I usually make that transfer right next to their habitat to reduce handling time.

I can see how a larger species would give a person goose bumps. I am sometimes nervous transferring my 6 1/2 BCC RTB after feeding. There has always been a trust issue with her though as she was a rescue and newer in my collection. After 6 months I think she is starting to learn whats going on and Im not as tense during that process as I use to be with her.

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Originally Posted by JimHjr

I can see how a larger species would give a person goose bumps. I am sometimes nervous transferring my 6 1/2 BCC RTB after feeding. There has always been a trust issue with her though as she was a rescue and newer in my collection. After 6 months I think she is starting to learn whats going on and Im not as tense during that process as I use to be with her.

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Jees , I'd never try moving anything other than Royals nevermind a big Boa !


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The thing is that snakes aren't difficult to keep. People like to act like its some high skill endeavor but in reality its as simple stupid as the owner wants to make it.

We have basically 5 ways of telling if a snake is healthy, is it eating, is it shedding properly, will it breed, is the animal of good weight and vigor.

That's pretty much it.

When all of those are happening with someone's snake they think boom I'm nailing it. I'm right and everyone else doing differently than me is wrong. This happens because people are self righteous and stupid.

In reality there are thousands of variables that will lead someone to healthy snakes and good husbandry.

We all like to argue what's "optimal" but we don't really have anything to go by other than those 5 signs I mentioned. So perhaps "optimal" is a much wider range of conditions and people just need to listen to what people are saying and make their own decisions with their own snakes instead of telling someone they are totally wrong just because they found a different way of finding success.

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Originally Posted by JimHjr

Then: 10-15 degree temp drop at night (done this since day 1)
Now: Not needed nor desireable

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I more or less just answered this in another thread, but I'll mention it again here in case others missed and might find it helpful:

A night drop can be of merit to snakes fighting off certainly infections. Many virus strains have an optimal temperature at which they reproduce best, for example, reptarenaviruses (such as those heavily suspected of being the cause of IBD in boid snakes) reproduce best at around 86 F. This is right around thermoregulatory temperature for most reptiles so it is easy to see why they are a natural host. If a reptile hugs its hot spot 90% of the time, while create for digestion, it is also the perfect temperature for viral spread. I believe there was a report of someone with an ill snake and their vet recommended removing his heat for 24-48 hours and see if that helped him improve. The rationale for this suggestion is based on temperatures preferred by a variety of viruses. Thus, if the snakes body temperature is dropped to ~70-75 F, it can probably fight off such an infection easier. Now, there are a variety of viruses that have different optimal temperatures, so having a night drop that modulates the snakes temperature somewhat may help a snake in fighting off certain infections. I don't know of an academic study that has weighed the pros and cons of a night drop in captive conditions, but I suspect there are pros and cons to both approaches.

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Originally Posted by JimHjr

Then: Feed snake in a separate enclosure (done this since day 1)
Now: Don't feed in separate enclosure

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I'll start by saying there are a lot of opinions regarding captive animal husbandry in general. I don't know that, for example, feeding in a separate container has gone away per se. I still see people recommend it. I suspect that in the past, people learned that feeding a snake in its enclosure sometimes increased the chances of it biting them. The reason for this wasn't that the snake was being more aggressive, just that the snake had been conditioned to accept food when it's enclosure was opened. If a snake is rarely handled and food comes from an opening in it's home (i.e. the door), the snake learns that rats come from the door. I have two boas that, on feeding day, sit right at the side opening of their cage I usually put the food in from. I highly doubt feeding within the snakes own cage or in a separate cage has a marked effect on a snakes health and well-being. I have heard it argued that the less you handle your snake the better, so feeding it in it's enclosure is superior. However, that doesn't always hold true. Initially a snake unaccustomed to handling will indeed experience stress from it (most of the time), but if the snake is handled small amounts over time, the snake becomes desensitized to the stress of handling and learns it is not a threatening event. So I suspect averaging the amount of stress of a snakes life time from both approaches is similar, or depending on life span, the handled snake may actually be better off.

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Originally Posted by JimHjr

Then: 35-40% humidity and bump to 60% ish when shedding (also followed since day 1)
Now: 50-60 normal and 70+ when shedding

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Animals are far more tolerant of humidity fluctuations than people appear to assume, but as a general rule, it is probably best to look at the animals native habitat and use that as a guide. For example, Ghana and Togo (major native habitats for ball pythons) experience temperatures between roughly 70 F and 88 F on average. Humidity is typically between 75 - 85 %. We can say then that generally ball pythons prefer warmer temperatures and higher humidity assuming their natural habitat is an appropriate guide. Can ball pythons do just fine in variations of this? Certainly. Indeed, while the two locations I mention are "hot beds" for ball pythons, their range is actually quite large, extending into more arid and Savannah terrain. This ability to survive in a variety of ecosystems is likely why they are so hardy in captivity.

Huh. If one has a sick bird or fish, it is generally recommended that the heat be raised.

Nevertheless, I often question the recommended temperatures for general snake husbandry. Assuming the wild BP would spend most of it's time in a termite mound, what are the ambient temperature and humidity inside the mound?

I notice this with snakes native to cooler areas. Garters can live up in Canada, but the recommended temps are given as if they were only found in FL. Even here in NM, it frequently isn't all that warm. I find the snakes in shadey, cooler areas of the yard. I understand they need the heat to digest, but I don't think the wild ones spend much time in the recommended ambient temps.

Last night, I was reading a caresheet for Peruvian cave roaches, and the usual warm 80-something temp. was given. Caves tend to be a bit chilly. Is the name a mis-nomer? Wish we had more complete info.

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Originally Posted by distaff

Huh. If one has a sick bird or fish, it is generally recommended that the heat be raised.

Nevertheless, I often question the recommended temperatures for general snake husbandry. Assuming the wild BP would spend most of it's time in a termite mound, what are the ambient temperature and humidity inside the mound?

I notice this with snakes native to cooler areas. Garters can live up in Canada, but the recommended temps are given as if they were only found in FL. Even here in NM, it frequently isn't all that warm. I find the snakes in shadey, cooler areas of the yard. I understand they need the heat to digest, but I don't think the wild ones spend much time in the recommended ambient temps.

Last night, I was reading a caresheet for Peruvian cave roaches, and the usual warm 80-something temp. was given. Caves tend to be a bit chilly. Is the name a mis-nomer? Wish we had more complete info.

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A termite mound averages 87 degrees. This is because snakes value security more than optimal temps. That temp is based on the inside of the mound, not near the edge of it which is where I imagine a BP spends its time. Snakes tend to run from hot spots in my experience and I don't even offer them anymore.

Hi,

I suspect a lot of the confusion may be coming simply from the focus of these forums.

We mainly advocate one simple to achieve set of variables as we know we get a lot of new or inexperienced owners. It will help them keep their new companions happy and healthy and suit most of the animals needs.

We also know there are considerable variations on the theme that will suit the requirements of the animals - this was mainly why we set up the "advanced husbandry" section where the variables can be shared and the pro's and cons of each discussed. ;)

The basic rule of "if it isn't broken don't fix it" applies but, if you find an animal with different preferences, and you know how to recognise this when you see it then there are many places to find the information.

The Barkers (VPI ) for example do things differently than I do - but I implicitly trust their knowledge and observational skills as biologists to make sure they are meeting the animals needs. I do not feel I have their skill set to the degree that I would be comfortable relying on it to spot problems with my own animals however. :cool:


dr del

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Originally Posted by distaff

Huh. If one has a sick bird or fish, it is generally recommended that the heat be raised.

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In terms of combating a virus or infection, you can either raise or lower temperature. The goal is to get away from the viruses preferred reproduction temperature. If for example, a virus likes 80 F, then moving down to 75 F or up to 85 F will slow viral reproduction and aid in recovery. You might consider it like artificially inducing fever like people experience. The body raises its temperature in an effort to make it a less hospitable place for infectious agents.

Admittedly, my knowledge of fish is quite poor, but in warm-blooded animals like birds and mammals raising temperature is preferred to lowering as far as outcomes are concerned. In cold-blooded animals like fish and reptiles, I suspect you could go either way as long as you are modulating body temperature without hitting undesirable extremes. Certainly raising a reptiles body temperature to that of of a mammals for long periods could cause serious harm.

I only have one BP but wanted to add my two cents in as well. Before I discovered this site, (about a year into my first and only BP) I had my BP in a tank where the ambient temps during the winter would never get higher than 72-73F. Humidity was always a challenge as I had him in a glass tank and was probably rarely in the correct range. Oddly enough, this was the most consistent year of feeding I had for him. I would guess that this was due to him being a baby and had a stronger feeding response than he does now. I am in no way saying anyone should keep their BPs in this type of setting. I've had everything in the "norm" for the past two and a half years and have had a T8 for over a year now which makes keeping a breeze. I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning and got lucky but I am amazed at how forgiving BPs are.