Swallowed substrate.

Today was feeding day and everything went wrong. I'll admit I left my rats out to thaw a bit too long. Today was the first time feeding my White Lipped Python an appropriate sized rat (medium) and because of this I left them out longer to thaw. My other three snakes take 2x weaned rats and 1x rat pup so this is the first time thawing such a large rat. I set them out to thaw at 11AM and fed at 7PM. As I normally do, I left and let them feed, when I returned to check on them I was surprised by my BP's rat having expelled it's guts out. It was disgusting, yes, but it caused a bigger issue. Im assuming the blood and fluids from the rat caused an unusual amount of substrate (Aspen chips) to be stuck in his mouth once he had swallowed the rat. He was visibly struggling to rid his mouth of the substrate. I tried to remove as much as I could with some forceps but did not want to stress him and cause him to regurge. I then check on my boa and find after he has swallowed his rat that he is having the same issue. His mouth was full of substrate. I tried to remove some as I did with the BP but the boa was really trying to get away from the forceps, and again did not want to stress him after eating. I really hope the substrate doesn't do them harm. Has anyone else had these issue with substrate? I'm thinking I now want to switch to something like reptichip as I can't imagine it clumping up and giving me the same issue the aspen chip did. Does anyone use reptichip? I really liked how the aspen chips helped absorb the smell from my snakes enclosures. To top it all off my JCP refused completely to eat. I offered 4 times and all 4 time she struck and coiled up the rat but never ate it, she's never done that before. My worst day dealing with my snakes so far.

I feed on sheets of printer paper to prevent what you had but I have had substrate in their mouths before. They will usually drink and its fine but if they got a lot, you might have to intervene. Gina had a mouthful of Eco Earth to the point she couldn't close her mouth at all. I had to wipe out as much as I could with a paper towel and Q-Tip. Then use the center Q-Tip stick to prop her mouth open and hang her head down and use a spray bottle and flush her mouth out. Had to do that twice. After that, I swear I'm never using Eco Earth again. Two times I've used it and two times I've had issues.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

I feed on sheets of printer paper to prevent what you had but I have had substrate in their mouths before. They will usually drink and its fine but if they got a lot, you might have to intervene. Gina had a mouthful of Eco Earth to the point she couldn't close her mouth at all. I had to wipe out as much as I could with a paper towel and Q-Tip. Then use the center Q-Tip stick to prop her mouth open and hang her head down and use a spray bottle and flush her mouth out. Had to do that twice. After that, I swear I'm never using Eco Earth again. Two times I've used it and two times I've had issues.

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They both had enough to were they could not close their mouths. I was able to remove some from my BP, the rest it seems he just eventually worked down. My boa absolutely refused to let me near him with the forceps, I tried gently spraying it with my mister but he eventually worked it down as well. This is the first time I've had this problem and I've been keeping them on aspen chips for the last 8 months or so. Do you keep them on paper or just feed out of their enclosures on paper?

I usually serve the rodents dry so not much substrate sticks to them but the times when the snakes have ingested substrate it's never had any ill effects. As long as their temps are good and they have fresh water they should pass it just fine.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I usually serve the rodents dry so not much substrate sticks to them but the times when the snakes have ingested substrate it's never had any ill effects. As long as their temps are good and they have fresh water they should pass it just fine.

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I do as well, I never thaw in water or with water. I leave my rodents to thaw for hours. The reason I had substrate stick this time was because one rat (that i saw) exploded when constricted (I think because I thawed for 8hrs) and the blood caused the substrate to stick. I'm assuming the same happened with the boa although I didn't see it. Both are feeding on the same sized rat so it makes sense 8hr thaw might be too much for weaned rats to thaw, both had the same substrate issue. The JCP takes rat fuzzies but as I said she refused to eat today. My WLP takes a medium but I imagine since its bigger the 8hr thaw wasn't enough to cause the blood to settle on one side, and if it is it didn't explode since the WLP will not constrict, he just takes the rat once I leave the room.

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Originally Posted by RamMac

They both had enough to were they could not close their mouths. I was able to remove some from my BP, the rest it seems he just eventually worked down. My boa absolutely refused to let me near him with the forceps, I tried gently spraying it with my mister but he eventually worked it down as well. This is the first time I've had this problem and I've been keeping them on aspen chips for the last 8 months or so. Do you keep them on paper or just feed out of their enclosures on paper?

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I've fed all of them in their cages for years. Like I said, I just use a sheet of printer paper. I mean cardboard or newspaper would work too. For the little ones, I just hold onto the mice with my forceps and they are all wrapped around the mouse hanging in the air lol. I then just slide the printer paper under them al lower the whole mass onto the paper. With the big ones, they rip food off of the tongs as forceps for them is just asking for a mistake lol. After that, they curl it up on the floor. I just lift up the whole mass and make sure to not have my hand near the head or any ways to get wrapped in a coil. Usually the easiest way is to lift the mass by the rats tail. I then slide the paper down and set them onto it. Sometimes they drag it off the paper but like I said, if they get a few pieces especially the large snakes, they get it down or they take a giant drink of water and it washes down.

And all my snakes get food that kind of fluffed dry with paper towels but its still wet, just not dripping wet. I thaw all my stuff in a bucket of water. I just throw the guinea pigs, rats and mice all in a bucket of warm water and feed off as they thaw and refresh the waters temp as needed.

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Originally Posted by RamMac

I do as well, I never thaw in water or with water. I leave my rodents to thaw for hours. The reason I had substrate stick this time was because one rat (that i saw) exploded when constricted (I think because I thawed for 8hrs) and the blood caused the substrate to stick. I'm assuming the same happened with the boa although I didn't see it. Both are feeding on the same sized rat so it makes sense 8hr thaw might be too much for weaned rats to thaw, both had the same substrate issue. The JCP takes rat fuzzies but as I said she refused to eat today. My WLP takes a medium but I imagine since its bigger the 8hr thaw wasn't enough to cause the blood to settle on one side, and if it is it didn't explode since the WLP will not constrict, he just takes the rat once I leave the room.

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Just make sure you are fully thawing the stuff. Smaller rats isn't that big of deal as you can easily tell if they are fully thawed but for big stuff, you want to make sure the insides are thawed and not frozen still. That's why I use warm water. Easier to tell if 2XL guinea pigs and large rats are fully thawed as I just kind of squeeze them a little and you can easily tell as you will feel a big temp difference.

And you're lucky your snakes are mellow feeders. Caesar freakin went ballistic Saturday when he smelled the colossal rat. I couldn't get a good grip with the tongs and kept dropping it lol. Caesar came flying out of the cage with mouth open and swaying like Stevie Wonder all over the place. I ended up having to just back up and wait until he went back inside the cage and I opened the other door and laid the rat on top of a hide real quick and shut the door. He came over and when he found it, he went crazy and slammed it and shook the whole dang cage enough to rattle the doors in the tracks lol. He is crazy when it comes to dinner. It's like Jeckyll and Hyde. He's an angel when no food but when food, I guarantee he will mess you up lol.

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Originally Posted by RamMac

Has anyone else had these issue with substrate? I'm thinking I now want to switch to something like reptichip as I can't imagine it clumping up and giving me the same issue the aspen chip did. Does anyone use reptichip? I really liked how the aspen chips helped absorb the smell from my snakes enclosures.

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Yes, I've occasionally had this problem with my corns because I keep them on Aspen and they like to drag their mouse to the back, under the hanging vines, where putting them on paper just doesn't happen.
Everyone else is on Reptichip. It doesn't clump and stick as much as Aspen does, and Reptichip is worlds better when it comes to odor prevention. And with my bigger snakes, that pee buckets full, nothing holds it better than Reptichip... no swampy mess to clean.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Just make sure you are fully thawing the stuff. Smaller rats isn't that big of deal as you can easily tell if they are fully thawed but for big stuff, you want to make sure the insides are thawed and not frozen still. That's why I use warm water. Easier to tell if 2XL guinea pigs and large rats are fully thawed as I just kind of squeeze them a little and you can easily tell as you will feel a big temp difference.

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Yes, this made me nervous since this is the first time I've had to thaw such a large rat. It was fully thawed, but unfortunately it may have been to long for the weaned rats which cause them to burst open.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

And you're lucky your snakes are mellow feeders. Caesar freakin went ballistic Saturday when he smelled the colossal rat. I couldn't get a good grip with the tongs and kept dropping it lol. Caesar came flying out of the cage with mouth open and swaying like Stevie Wonder all over the place. I ended up having to just back up and wait until he went back inside the cage and I opened the other door and laid the rat on top of a hide real quick and shut the door. He came over and when he found it, he went crazy and slammed it and shook the whole dang cage enough to rattle the doors in the tracks lol. He is crazy when it comes to dinner. It's like Jeckyll and Hyde. He's an angel when no food but when food, I guarantee he will mess you up lol.

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They are mellow feeders. The JCP is easily the most animated feeder despite her being very defensive still. When she smells food, all reservations that she has with me approaching her enclosure disappear. She comes straight towards me. My BP and boa feed great but they have never displayed Caesars hunger. This was only my second time feeding the WLP but both times I've had to just leave the rat for him to eat on his own, he would not take it from me. Both times I've fed, he has not struck nor coiled the rats.

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Originally Posted by DLena

Yes, I've occasionally had this problem with my corns because I keep them on Aspen and they like to drag their mouse to the back, under the hanging vines, where putting them on paper just doesn't happen.
Everyone else is on Reptichip. It doesn't clump and stick as much as Aspen does, and Reptichip is worlds better when it comes to odor prevention. And with my bigger snakes, that pee buckets full, nothing holds it better than Reptichip... no swampy mess to clean.

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Im going to give reptichip a try. Thanks :gj:

This is one of the biggest reasons I use newspaper and refuse to use substrates...

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

This is one of the biggest reasons I use newspaper and refuse to use substrates...

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I had my snakes on paper before, but I did not like how much the snake room would stink with feces and urates. Aspen chips being so small and how they clump together when wet (in this case from blood) was the contributing factor in this case.

Imo the pros of a substrate outweigh the only con it has and its not like it happens every time you feed. Be aware though, i have talked to people who has kept their snakes on newspapers for years and they said the snakes started to take on a more flattened pancake look to them since they could never get grip with newspaper, they would flatten themselves out to create as much surface area to try and compensate. Now whether this is BS or not, I have heard it from a few guys. Snakes naturally dont live on a slick surface. It would be like you doing nothing but walking around on hardwood floors in socks. After years of it, i imagine you would lose some of your skills at walking on a solid non slip surface.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Imo the pros of a substrate outweigh the only con it has and its not like it happens every time you feed. Be aware though, i have talked to people who has kept their snakes on newspapers for years and they said the snakes started to take on a more flattened pancake look to them since they could never get grip with newspaper, they would flatten themselves out to create as much surface area to try and compensate. Now whether this is BS or not, I have heard it from a few guys. Snakes naturally dont live on a slick surface. It would be like you doing nothing but walking around on hardwood floors in socks. After years of it, i imagine you would lose some of your skills at walking on a solid non slip surface.

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That makes sense and it's definitely something to consider and I also feel that the snakes would be much more comfortable on substrate. Smell hasn't been an issue for me, though. I check in on my snakes several times a day and the moment I notice urine or feces their tubs get washed out with dawn dish soap and get fresh newspaper immediately. In more messy situations (like when my Bloods set off poop bombs) the snakes will also get a bath before being returned to their fresh tubs. I have actually been planning on experimenting with artificial grass/astroturf. That seems like it would be ideal to me. It's relatively cheap and it seems like it would be easy to clean. I just want to see how many cleanings it will stand up to. Have you or anyone you know of ever used it, Sauzo?

The astroturf option use to be fairly common among a handful of keepers. Some loved it, some hated it. I'd be sure to buy quality material to make sure it'll stand up to being vigorously washed.

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

That makes sense and it's definitely something to consider and I also feel that the snakes would be much more comfortable on substrate. Smell hasn't been an issue for me, though. I check in on my snakes several times a day and the moment I notice urine or feces their tubs get washed out with dawn dish soap and get fresh newspaper immediately. In more messy situations (like when my Bloods set off poop bombs) the snakes will also get a bath before being returned to their fresh tubs. I have actually been planning on experimenting with artificial grass/astroturf. That seems like it would be ideal to me. It's relatively cheap and it seems like it would be easy to clean. I just want to see how many cleanings it will stand up to. Have you or anyone you know of ever used it, Sauzo?

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I don't know any breeder who uses the stuff. To me it would seem more work than worth.

I mean you have to have at least 2 'floors' per cage as when it is soiled on, you need to wash it and dry it or it will become a bacteria breeding ground.

Also. depending how its made, if it is like the reptile carpet with each strand of the flooring being a loop, if a snake struck and missed or for any reason got carpet in the mouth, it could break or pull out teeth.

So to me, its just more work lol. If I was going to go to anything that was along the lines of quick fold and dump flooring, I would go with corrugated cardboard liners in the big roll. Give grip while also allowing fluids to drain into the valleys so the snake isn't sitting on piss.

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...Flute-24-x-250 This is the 24" wide stuff so if you have wider cages, obviously you would get the wider roll :)