Opinions On Breeding Male Normal BCI (Aberrant) From A Business Standpoint?

A few months ago, I made an impulse purchase at a reptile expo and bought a 2015 male BCI normal aberrant. He will be 2 years old in September... Originally, when I got back into keeping snakes with the intentions of pursuing breeding as a sideline business/passionate hobby (like most of us), I had no intentions of buying or breeding normals, because of how the market seems to work (mostly consisting of other breeders and more serious collectors, etc). But, I thought this snake was really pretty and the vendor gave me a deal I couldn't refuse, so he is my baby now and I love him to death. Anyway, I am considering picking a girlfriend up for him, but I feel I should be very selective from a business standpoint. My main concern is, I want to end up with as few hungry normal Boas that no one wants to buy as possible. As a side note, I have a 2017 female Ghost Het Moonglow that is a possible super, but it will be a few years before she can be bred and my plan is to pick up a male Ghost Het Moonglow boyfriend for her at some point. I don't feel like I will be willing to take a chance on breeding her to a normal with only a 1/3 chance that she might be a super after waiting 5 years...

There are a few different specific Boa morphs that I would love to have, but from a business standpoint a super form of something would make the most sense if i'm going to breed this normal. I am a huge fan of Boas that are either black, silver, grey, white, red or any interesting color combination of those colors. I'm not a fan of mutations with speckles, freckles and broken patterns... I'm just looking for some ideas for really cool, yet affordable (maybe $300.00 - $500.00 range) super forms that would produce desirable/marketable offspring. Could you guys throw some ideas at me?

As far as non-super forms, I am considering a Motley or a Motley Parahet. If i'm not mistaken, a Normal x Motley would produce 50% Motley offspring, is that correct? And, also, if I understand correctly, a Normal x Paradigm would produce 100% Het Albino (Caramel-hypo) 100% Het Albino (Sharp), right? So, what would happen to those odds with a Normal x Motley Parahet?

I welcome all of your thoughts and ideas!

A hypo motley would be a good choice. His abberant patterns may throw some cool babies, even if they are normals.

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The breeder also told me that if I were to breed him to a Hypo he could pass his aberrant markings on to the offspring... Is there some reason why he could only pass them on if crossed with a Hypo or could he pass them on no matter what he is crossed with?

I think from a business standpoint you probably want to breed most of your snakes as low end cheaper snakes. I just saw a video from a big breeder and he said that the majority of the snakes he breeds are corn snakes, and they are cheap. The demand is higher for a cheap snake. Anything above $300 and you are probably targeting possible breeders instead of your typical pet store hobbyist. I've seen people breed high end snakes and they seem to sell pretty slowly, not many people can whip out thousands of dollars to buy a snake. And in most cases it's an investment breeder making the purchase, not the general public.

With that said I'd say to purchase and breed what you really like. If they don't sell you can add them to your collection and sit on them until they do sell or perhaps you may want to keep them. Personally I have a mix of high end and low end snakes, from $50 up to about $1200. I'm planning on breeding and selling at shows, so when someone walks up to my table I'll can reach the largest variety of customers (big snakes, little snakes, cheap snakes, expensive snakes, colorful snakes, drab snakes, active snakes, lethargic snakes, etc..). If you have a few of each kind you'll get the most people coming to the table, especially if you have just one or two of a kind that most people don't have (like the Australian Woma pythons for example).

The hypo mutant gene is dominant to the corresponding normal gene. Mating a normal to a hypo would be expected to produce 1/2 hypo and 1/2 normal. IMO, the former owner meant that your normal's aberrant markings could be inherited by both the hypo and the normal babies.

Note the previous sentence says "could" instead of "would". If the aberrant markings are caused by something in the embryo's environment, than the offspring probably would not have the aberrant markings. Even if those aberrant markings are genetic, there are too many variables for me to predict what the offspring would look like.

A paradigm boa has a gene pair made up of a Sharp albino gene and a boawoman caramel (AKA Sharon Moore hypo) gene. A parahet is a normal looking baby from a normal x paradigm boa mating. A parahet is either het Sharp albino or het boawoman caramel, but you do not know which because both look normal. I would advise against getting a parahet because of the uncertainty of what you are getting, and particularly if you are getting snakes that are Kahl albino or het Kahl albino. A moonglow is a hypo Kahl albino anerythristic. A ghost is a hypo anerythristic. A ghost het moonglow is also known as a ghost het Kahl albino. Mating a Kahl albino to a Sharp albino produces 100% normal looking babies (both het Kahl albino and het Sharp albino). Such babies are practically worthless because people want to avoid mixing the two types of albino.

Thank you for your insight cchardwick! I really appreciate it! :) I agree completely with everything you touched on. I am brand new to the snake breeding/selling market, but it seems like I am pretty much correct about how the market works. Obviously, most people, who are just looking for a pet snake for themselves or their 10 year old child aren't going to care about what kind of genes an animal has in it or what kind of breeding potential it has. I would imagine their biggest concerns are going to be getting the cutest snake at the cheapest price possible. That's where normals and lower end mutations are perfect. My only concerns about that are, how many of those types of buyers are shopping online and/or going to reptile expos to buy a pet snake? It seems to me like most people would just go to their local pet store. Also, due to shipping costs, you have to drop the prices of your normals so much to be in the same ballpark as the local pet shops that you will be losing money by the time you add up all the costs of feeding each baby until it sells, etc. I mean, I have seen hatchling normal Ball Pythons online for only $25.00! lol So, yes... When I first decided to pursue this, I picked right up on the fact that the higher end, more sought after animals would mostly be a breeder/serious collector market.

I also completely agree with the importance of having a variety of snakes available. I can't wait until my collection is all grown up and producing! There are 3 monthly local reptile expos in my immediate area and I have never seen even one of most of the species that I will be producing. I suppose that could be good or bad, though, because mostly what I never see at the expos that I will be producing are Bloods, Borneos, Sumatrans or Womas. And, yes! I am happy to say I finally decided to buy a pair of Womas! lol There is no doubt in my mind that I will never have any problem selling Womas. I already get emails from people looking for them all the time. The Bloods i'm afraid, are going to be mostly a breeder/collector market, due to their adult size and unfortunate nasty reputation. Would you agree? Though, I am definitely going to become a strong advocate for "Bloods over Balls" as pets... lol

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Originally Posted by paulh

The hypo mutant gene is dominant to the corresponding normal gene. Mating a normal to a hypo would be expected to produce 1/2 hypo and 1/2 normal. IMO, the former owner meant that your normal's aberrant markings could be inherited by both the hypo and the normal babies.

Note the previous sentence says "could" instead of "would". If the aberrant markings are caused by something in the embryo's environment, than the offspring probably would not have the aberrant markings. Even if those aberrant markings are genetic, there are too many variables for me to predict what the offspring would look like.

A paradigm boa has a gene pair made up of a Sharp albino gene and a boawoman caramel (AKA Sharon Moore hypo) gene. A parahet is a normal looking baby from a normal x paradigm boa mating. A parahet is either het Sharp albino or het boawoman caramel, but you do not know which because both look normal. I would advise against getting a parahet because of the uncertainty of what you are getting, and particularly if you are getting snakes that are Kahl albino or het Kahl albino. A moonglow is a hypo Kahl albino anerythristic. A ghost is a hypo anerythristic. A ghost het moonglow is also known as a ghost het Kahl albino. Mating a Kahl albino to a Sharp albino produces 100% normal looking babies (both het Kahl albino and het Sharp albino). Such babies are practically worthless because people want to avoid mixing the two types of albino.

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Excellent information! Thanks! So, if I go with a Motley female the odds would be 50/50, right? So, what would happen to the odds if I went with a Hypo Motley female? Because, some of the offspring would be Hypo, some would be Motley, some would be Hypo Motley and some would be normal, right? Or, would half be Hypo Motley and the other half normal? I'm a little confused on that...

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

Excellent information! Thanks! So, if I go with a Motley female the odds would be 50/50, right? So, what would happen to the odds if I went with a Hypo Motley female? Because, some of the offspring would be Hypo, some would be Motley, some would be Hypo Motley and some would be normal, right? Or, would half be Hypo Motley and the other half normal? I'm a little confused on that...

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Right. Motley x normal is expected to produce 50% motley and 50% normal.

A hypo motley female would be an excellent choice. From what I have read on various forums, hypo motley x normal produces 50% hypo and 50% motley. There are no or almost no normal or hypo motley babies. The general belief is that hypo and motley can make a gene pair, like the Sharp albino gene and the boawoman caramel gene do.

By the way, don't try to mate a motley to a motley. Some of the babies would be super motley, which are weak and usually die before maturity.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Right. Motley x normal is expected to produce 50% motley and 50% normal.

A hypo motley female would be an excellent choice. From what I have read on various forums, hypo motley x normal produces 50% hypo and 50% motley. There are no or almost no normal or hypo motley babies. The general belief is that hypo and motley can make a gene pair, like the Sharp albino gene and the boawoman caramel gene do.

By the way, don't try to mate a motley to a motley. Some of the babies would be super motley, which are weak and usually die before maturity.

Good luck.

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Yes, that is a shame about the Super Motleys, because those would be ideal for me to get into otherwise. I loves me some black snakes! I've read how they usually don't live past 2 years old. It sucks that the IMGs are still so pricey, too!

An eclipse can be fairly dark too. Not like an img but still dark.

Hypomotley female and a normal male. Would be 1/4 motley 1/4 Hypo 1/4 hypomotley and 1/4 normal. I personally wouldn't find use for normal male from a business stand point unless it was high quality. You can find some really high quality normals that go for over 400. Those are the pastel lines you see people selling.

I have an adult female that would be ready to breed at any point. But she's butt ugly if you are talking about breeding quality. Personally I think she's pretty but her normal babies would be 40$ tops.

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Originally Posted by chip07

Hypo motley female and a normal male. Would be 1/4 motley 1/4 Hypo 1/4 hypo motley and 1/4 normal.

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The hypo and motley genes are allelic in boas, so you would end up with 50% hypo and 50% motley.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

The hypo and motley genes are allelic in boas, so you would end up with 50% hypo and 50% motley.

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Never heard that one. Interesting. Probably since they aren't recessive so people don't mention it. Or it might be since I'm not a motley fan and wasn't paying attention lol

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Originally Posted by bcr229

The hypo and motley genes are allelic in boas, so you would end up with 50% hypo and 50% motley.

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Wow... No kidding? No normals, huh? I think we have a winner! :)

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Originally Posted by bcr229

The hypo and motley genes are allelic in boas, so you would end up with 50% hypo and 50% motley.

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Now this I didn't know. Mainly because I don't work with, nor particularly care for the motley gene.

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Originally Posted by snakequeen74

Now this I didn't know. Mainly because I don't work with, nor particularly care for the motley gene.

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Im feeling like the motley gene is getting picked on now since I said the same thing lol. I only have the one motley since I want an eclipse.

Also Diem has some beautiful motleys she just made available. Not a fan of the gene but those could change my mind.

Since we are talking about this from a business standpoint you need to figure out what your expenses and bottom line are going to be. Let's for example look at the low end snakes at $40 each, depending on what kind of snake it is and how old it is you will get more or less eggs. A boa can have between 10 and 65 young, a ball python from 3 to 11 eggs, and retics up to 90! Let's look at a boa and an average clutch of 25 eggs. If they all hatch and you can sell them at $40 each that's $1,000 per year per female snake. Don't forget to factor in the male as well since he is a non-producer and with boas you may have a significant number of females that don't lay every year.

From that number you have to subtract your feed costs, bedding costs, and if you are doing the work yourself the time is free but if you scale up then you'll have to hire employees and that costs money. Don't forget rent for the building and heat / electricity / trash service / internet. If you are breeding in your basement and doing all the work yourself all of this is basically free besides the bedding and feed (maybe other small things like rubber gloves, trash bags, disinfectant, spray bottles, etc..). Other big expenses will be advertising, and boxing / shipping snakes, booth setups at shows, etc...

A good business person will look at each expense and try to come up with ways to cut costs. For example, I started out buying all my rodents from the pet shop but quickly found it wasn't cost effective for a large collection. So now I raise all my own rodents in an ARS rack system. It was a significant expense up front but saves a lot of time breeding and caring for them and my rats really seem to like the rack system, they are safe and secure and have plenty of water and food and are kept clean and dry. Most people breeding rats are buying wood chips or wood / paper pellets as a substrate. I switched to free shredded paper from work, it cuts my rodent costs in half!

Also, I prefer to use coconut husk substrate for my snakes, but most breeders now are switching over to newspaper or just plain old butcher paper. It takes more time to clean with paper but I imagine the money savings would be huge. But that's not an expense I'm willing to cut, I like the humidity and odor absorbing quality of coconut husk and accept the high price I pay (it reduces the labor cost and that's hard to calculate since I do everything myself). However, I can still cut costs and buy coconut husk by the pallet and cuts my costs by 50%, just have to come up with the initial $1,000 for the pallet! But I figure that pallet would last me three years, so that's a reasonable expense for me.

Even keeping all of that in mind I see some of the big breeders losing money on some of their projects and selling some snakes at a loss. But over all they come out way ahead. Personally I don't think you have to make a profit on every snake you sell, you just need to make enough money to keep the business going.

Also from a business standpoint both hypo and motley single-gene animals are very common, much like pastel, spider, lesser, Mohave, etc. in ball pythons. Also from the discussion above motleys don't get much love because the super form is lethal, though motley in combinations with other genes makes for some cool critters.

Personally I wouldn't breed a common normal BCI male or female unless something about that particular animal's color or pattern was being used to enhance a long-term project, as too many buyers look at cheap animals as disposable or not worth spending the money to set up and keep properly.

If you're going to make a go of breeding snakes as a business, then produce what other keepers aren't.

@cchardwick - The main cost I am concerned about is rats. Currently, I only have 12 snakes (of which only 2 are adults) and it is already getting fairly expensive to feed them. Originally, I had started preparing to breed my own and I planned on having that going already, but I ended up putting that on hold until I figure out how I am going to go about keeping the smell out of my house (possibly an exhaust fan in a basement window or something). I get really good deals on frozen rats from a guy locally, so the trade-off of not having to deal with breeding my own is still worth it for the time being. But, once babies start popping out in a few short months and I need to start having live available to get them eating, that's where i'm going to run into problems...

This is whole new subject of it's own, but what do you guys think about breeding rats in a garage from spring through fall? I haven't actually calculated everything, but it seems like if you timed everything right you could have plenty of live babies available throughout the traditional hatching season every year and also have plenty left to grow up and freeze to help get through the winter months. I have 2 large garages, but to breed rats year round in them I would have to heat them 24/7. So, the additional huge cost of my monthly gas bill sky rocketing would definitely not be worth it...

As far as substrate goes, I use newspaper for all of my snakes. Personally, I think it's perfect (aside from not retaining moisture for very long). The snakes don't get all dirty and it doesn't get all over the floor, it's basically free and it's no problem at all to switch the snakes out into a fresh clean tub once or twice a week. I also feel like there is much less of a chance of urine building up and bacteria and mold becoming a problem. With actual substrate, I don't see how it's possible to ever get all of the urine out of it and it's pretty expensive. And, not to mention, it greatly reduces the amount of room the snakes have to explore. I definitely have to get a humidifier for my snake room before winter, though. I've also been considering using moss instead of crumpled up newspaper for my Bloods and Short Tails to help retain moisture longer. Do you guys know how well the tropical moss generally retains moisture with a lot of airflow? Anyway, this is also another whole topic of it's own. But, from a business standpoint, newspaper definitely cuts down on a major cost. Also, these are only my opinions. I'm just a nOOb... lol You guys are the wise ones! :)

@chip07 - Grrr! Damn you for reminding me about the Eclipse! lol I'm never going to have any money again, am I? :( When I originally started researching Boa mutations and deciding which ones would be my favorites to work with the Eclipse was my very first choice! I got sidetracked with Moonglows and sorta forgot about them. Now, I am rethinking my plans again... Personally, I really like the Motleys, but if i'm going to go through the time and expense of raising up a Motley it would be much more worthwhile in the long run to be growing up a Leopard (which, I also like a lot) as well instead of planning on just putting her with a normal. Maybe I need to come to terms with just keeping my normal boy as a pet... The Eclipse is indeed just a Motley x Leopard, right? I'm guessing there is only a very small chance of getting an Eclipse, though, right? Wouldn't most of the offspring be Motley Het Leopards?

@bcr229 - I agree completely with everything you stated!

With regards to Motleys, I have had an idea for a possible world's first with that gene for awhile, but i'm not exactly sure how to go about it. I will start a new topic for that, which you guys might find interesting...

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

Let's look at a boa and an average clutch of 25 eggs.

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I'm really sorry but this is bothering me... boas are live-bearers.

In the early 2000's I wholesaled a large litter of normals for $15/ea in lots of 10. Didn't make any money but it paid the food costs for that year.

OP - the hypo gene itself can make funky patterns. Boa patterns are highly variable and can be inheritable characteristics, so there is a slightly higher chance an aberrant adult will product aberrant babies.
Good luck with whatever you decide! Good advise was given and I don't want to simply repeat it.
:)

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

@chip07 - Grrr! Damn you for reminding me about the Eclipse! lol I'm never going to have any money again, am I? :( When I originally started researching Boa mutations and deciding which ones would be my favorites to work with the Eclipse was my very first choice! I got sidetracked with Moonglows and sorta forgot about them. Now, I am rethinking my plans again... Personally, I really like the Motleys, but if i'm going to go through the time and expense of raising up a Motley it would be much more worthwhile in the long run to be growing up a Leopard (which, I also like a lot) as well instead of planning on just putting her with a normal. Maybe I need to come to terms with just keeping my normal boy as a pet... The Eclipse is indeed just a Motley x Leopard, right? I'm guessing there is only a very small chance of getting an Eclipse, though, right? Wouldn't most of the offspring be Motley Het Leopards?

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If it's a motleyxleopard pairing they would all be het leopards no visual eclipse. If the motley is het leopard you would get visual eclipse from the pairing. My Motley is a PH Leopard for example. She was only 125 I think it was so I couldn't pass it up. I have no clue if she will prove out or not but I think it would be fun to pair her with my hypo PH leopard male. Bit of a surprise pairing that could give me an eclipse or nothing. I have a Albino Het Leopard male and Hypo dh leopard Albino female for definite leopards in the future. And everyone will be ready around the same time.

If you want to pair him just to do so then that will always be your choice. I wouldn't make it a habit of pairing just any normal up of course but in the end that's always up to you. I would never pair my normal female simply because I don't think she's breeding quality and she has too much sentimental value to risk breeding personally. She's my first boa that I got when I was 13 years old. She's been with me half my life now so I don't really want to risk the chance something goes wrong.

I love the hypos and high quality normals (pastels). My first pairing will be a Hypo x EBV Poss Super Hypo Jungle pairing not anything amazingly high quality but they should produce colorful babies and may just surprise me:)

I have a new Summit Pastel Poss Jungle Het VPI female that I will probably be spending a lot of money on a male for in the next few years. I was thinking visual Hytec VPI from PP or Redrum lines for her or something along those lines. She's a 2017 so I have awhile to decide. The breeder I was thinking of has a lot of males that I loved but definitely don't have the money for right now.

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Originally Posted by chip07

Im feeling like the motley gene is getting picked on now since I said the same thing lol. I only have the one motley since I want an eclipse.

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I just prefer Arabesque. It's nothing against the gene itself.
There are quite a few Pattern mutations I don't care for.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

I'm really sorry but this is bothering me... boas are live-bearers.

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Glad someone else caught that.

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Originally Posted by chip07

If it's a motleyxleopard pairing they would all be het leopards no visual eclipse. If the motley is het leopard you would get visual eclipse from the pairing.

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So, just to be clear, to get a visual Eclipse the pairing would have to be Motley Het Leopard x Leopard, right? What are the odds for Eclipse offspring? The rest of the offspring would be Motley 50% Het Leopards and Normal 50% Het Leopards, right? Is there any other pairing that would increase the odds of getting visual Eclipse offspring or is that the only way?

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

So, just to be clear, to get a visual Eclipse the pairing would have to be Motley Het Leopard x Leopard, right? What are the odds for Eclipse offspring? The rest of the offspring would be Motley 50% Het Leopards and Normal 50% Het Leopards, right? Is there any other pairing that would increase the odds of getting visual Eclipse offspring or is that the only way?

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Motley Het Leopard x Leopard = 1/4 Eclipse, 1/4 Motley Het Leopard, 1/4 Leopard, 1/4 Het Leopard

Motley Het Leopard x Het Leopard = 1/8 Eclipse, 1/8 Leopard, 3/8 Motley 66% PH Leopard, 3/8 66% PH Leopard

Eclipse x Leopard = 1/2 Eclipse, 1/2 Leopard

Eclipse x Het Leopard = 1/4 Eclipse, 1/4 Motley Het Leopard, 1/4 Leopard, 1/4 Het Leopard

Anything with one visual Leopard will give you 100% hets. So either have one visual Leopard or two to increase the odds of an eclipse.

Awesome! Thanks for the info! Well... *sigh* Now, I know what my next 2 purchases will be after I get the 3 snakes paid off that i'm paying on right now... lol Do you know anyone who has Motley 100% Het Leopards available? I searched around a bit earlier and wasn't able to find any...

Lance Hansen just had a litter earlier this month. I bought my motley 66% Het Leopard from Fred Jaks not sure if he will have anything.

Breeding kills animals, so before breeding you need to be aware of that and be ready to lose any animals you breed. Even males can become injured or killed in any number of ways, but females are especially in danger of injury or death because they're gravid. Overfeeding can complicate things even further, so if you haven't been overly strict in your feeding regimen, the female could be put into danger when bred. Fatty liver disease is several times more likely in a gravid female, as the stress and time off of food can aggravate the condition.


Do you have money for vet bills in the case something goes wrong? Do you have the budget to spend potential thousands in vet costs on each individual snake in the case something goes wrong with the breeding, any of the babies need health care, etc.? Males can bust hemipenes, which will oftentimes leave them as useless breeders since their dominant side is usually the side affected. Males can become crushed or otherwise attacked by the female. Females can become eggbound, or otherwise become unhealthy from her gravidity. Babies can come out with conditions like hardened yolks, infected eyes (fairly common in albino boas), or other random ailments. These snakes will need veterinary care. The more animals you add to your collection, the higher the chances are that you'll encounter a health issue or a parasite infestation. Are you financially ready to deal with this?


Aberrant normals are quite common in boas, so you're not looking to make a lot of money from a normal breeding. Even if your female has a codom morph, your babies are still not going to be worth much. Unless they've been bred for quality over generations, the average hypo runs about $100-175 on average. These morphs are just so common, and most people aren't putting in the work to make the morph better, instead churning out low-quality ugly offspring (as ugly as a boa could ever be anyway).


If you plan on making breeding a full time venture of your's, then I'm sure you've already weighed these options.


You don't necessarily have to breed the poss super ghost to a normal to prove her out, as long as the male doesn't have hypo in him you'll be able to tell.




As far as the rat breeding, I used to breed my rats outside in a lean-to shed without any sort of heating. They bred and survived just fine. I never lost a litter or a rat to the cold, and never had any illnesses. The key was offering plenty of bedding and keeping them out of the wind. I do also live in NC, so it's *usually* not any colder than 10-20F during the winter, but we did have one winter of at least -10F, and the rats powered right on through it. Not sure if that is average for rats or not, or how advisable it is just my experience with them. I'm not sure if rats kept in the stereotypical breeding racks will have the resources to allow them to survive that. I had 3 rats to a 6' enclosure with 8" of bedding, so that could have given them an advantage.


I also have 12 snakes, and their yearly cost isn't really very high for feeding. If I bought all of the year's food at once I'm looking at about $380 for everyone (or $31.67/month), but I normally buy 6-8 month's worth of food at a time for right around $300. This is ordering bulk on websites like Big Cheese or Perfect Prey. I do also keep my snakes' prey sizes small and space out feedings, so I'm not feeding as much food as most other keepers. I don't have a single snake eating weekly right now, most are eating every 2-3 weeks, and will be eating monthly as adults.




I'm not sure why you think substrate will impact a snake's ability to explore, unless you're housing your snakes in enclosures that are too short to be ethical. With 2'+ height enclosures a few inches of substrate isn't going to make a difference in the snake's available space. As far as cleaning, just pick up urates/feces and any surrounding bedding and that should get most or all of it, absorbent beddings should keep everything from spreading too much. With the moss, I doubt the humidity would last more than a day with a lot of airflow.

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

Breeding kills animals, so before breeding you need to be aware of that and be ready to lose any animals you breed. Even males can become injured or killed in any number of ways, but females are especially in danger of injury or death because they're gravid. Overfeeding can complicate things even further, so if you haven't been overly strict in your feeding regimen, the female could be put into danger when bred. Fatty liver disease is several times more likely in a gravid female, as the stress and time off of food can aggravate the condition.

Do you have money for vet bills in the case something goes wrong? Do you have the budget to spend potential thousands in vet costs on each individual snake in the case something goes wrong with the breeding, any of the babies need health care, etc.? Males can bust hemipenes, which will oftentimes leave them as useless breeders since their dominant side is usually the side affected. Males can become crushed or otherwise attacked by the female. Females can become eggbound, or otherwise become unhealthy from her gravidity. Babies can come out with conditions like hardened yolks, infected eyes (fairly common in albino boas), or other random ailments. These snakes will need veterinary care. The more animals you add to your collection, the higher the chances are that you'll encounter a health issue or a parasite infestation. Are you financially ready to deal with this?

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I am quite aware of all this and I am just as horrified by the thought of all of these potential disasters (and others) as anyone. I also realize that Boas are especially at risk for breeding complications. I love and adore each and every one of my snakes dearly and they get just as good of care as anyone could possibly provide for them in captivity. I even hold and spend time with every one of them almost every day, so they can stretch out and get a little exercise and also to keep them used to being handled. They are first and foremost, my babies. But, secondly, they are investments. I didn't jump into this venture blindly...

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

Aberrant normals are quite common in boas, so you're not looking to make a lot of money from a normal breeding. Even if your female has a codom morph, your babies are still not going to be worth much. Unless they've been bred for quality over generations, the average hypo runs about $100-175 on average. These morphs are just so common, and most people aren't putting in the work to make the morph better, instead churning out low-quality ugly offspring (as ugly as a boa could ever be anyway).

If you plan on making breeding a full time venture of your's, then I'm sure you've already weighed these options

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Exactly... That was the whole point of this post. I have been on the fence about whether to plan on ever breeding this boy or just coming to terms with the likelihood that he may just remain a beloved pet. The obvious answer to me was to only breed normals with Super gene animals. But, if I were to ever breed him to a non-super gene animal, I think a Hypo Motley would be an excellent choice. No, neither Hypos, Motleys or Hypo Motleys are worth all that much money, but they are indeed all very popular and affordable. And, as we have discussed, from a business standpoint, it is a wise idea to have lower end (cheaper) animals available for average everyday pet snake buyers. How many of those type of buyers are going to be willing to buy a $350.00 - $40,000.00 pet snake for their 12 year old children?

At this time, my goal is simply for this to become a sideline business that is as profitable as possible (obviously) without going too big. I very well may try to make breeding a full time venture in my elder years at some point if I ever get too old to perform professionally (at the level I do now, at least). That was very much part of my reason for pursuing all of this. I think this is something that I would be very happy and content doing when i'm old and decrepit someday (Aaargh! :() and I believe it could become at least somewhat lucrative. I am and always will be an entrepreneur and I have to be passionate about whatever I am doing. Hence; Why I haven't had a "JOB" job in over 17 years... At this point, I don't really want my personal collection to grow to more than maybe 20 - 30 snakes (including the foreseeable holdbacks I am shooting for in my distant and not so distant future). But, the further I get into this the more I realize how difficult it might become to keep my collection that small. That will depend on how well I am able to move snakes and whether or not I decide to take it to the next level, I guess. Right now, I sorta feel like I showed up late for the game and i'm sorta in a race against time to get some good projects moving along. I am 47 years old and due to the fact that the process takes so long to grow these animals up to sexual maturity (especially Boas) I am trying to get as many desirable pairs in my collection and growing as possible. I mean, I will already be 50 or 51 years old by the time I can even attempt to breed my little Ghost girl and at least one other pair of Boas I see myself acquiring soon... :(

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

As far as the rat breeding, I used to breed my rats outside in a lean-to shed without any sort of heating. They bred and survived just fine. I never lost a litter or a rat to the cold, and never had any illnesses. The key was offering plenty of bedding and keeping them out of the wind. I do also live in NC, so it's *usually* not any colder than 10-20F during the winter, but we did have one winter of at least -10F, and the rats powered right on through it. Not sure if that is average for rats or not, or how advisable it is just my experience with them. I'm not sure if rats kept in the stereotypical breeding racks will have the resources to allow them to survive that. I had 3 rats to a 6' enclosure with 8" of bedding, so that could have given them an advantage.

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Wow... No kidding??? That is very interesting to hear! I live in Pittsburgh, PA and between November and April the average low temperatures range from 21 - 40 degrees. The high temperatures during those months range from 36 - 63 degrees. Judging by your experience, it sounds like perhaps the rats would probably do fine in one of my garages, yeah? I have read elsewhere on this forum that you will see a drop in production with temperatures below 55 and above 78 and that ideal temperatures are low to mid 70's. What has your experience been with that?

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

I also have 12 snakes, and their yearly cost isn't really very high for feeding. If I bought all of the year's food at once I'm looking at about $380 for everyone (or $31.67/month), but I normally buy 6-8 month's worth of food at a time for right around $300. This is ordering bulk on websites like Big Cheese or Perfect Prey. I do also keep my snakes' prey sizes small and space out feedings, so I'm not feeding as much food as most other keepers. I don't have a single snake eating weekly right now, most are eating every 2-3 weeks, and will be eating monthly as adults.

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I haven't ever broken down and calculated my actual feeding costs as of yet. I would estimate it's somewhere between $40.00 and $60.00 every 2 months or something, though. At this point all of my snakes are feeding on "appropriate size" rats every 7 days. I am keeping a very close eye on them (especially my Bloods and Short Tails) and if the shape of their bodies start to look fatter than what that particular species ideal body shape should look like I will cut the feedings back as needed. Does that seem reasonable to you?

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

I'm not sure why you think substrate will impact a snake's ability to explore, unless you're housing your snakes in enclosures that are too short to be ethical. With 2'+ height enclosures a few inches of substrate isn't going to make a difference in the snake's available space. As far as cleaning, just pick up urates/feces and any surrounding bedding and that should get most or all of it, absorbent beddings should keep everything from spreading too much. With the moss, I doubt the humidity would last more than a day with a lot of airflow.

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At this stage of growth, all of my snakes are still in 28 qt. - 41 qt. racks (my adult Ball Pythons will remain in 41 qt. racks). Each rack only has about 5 3/4" of headroom for the snakes. It doesn't take much calculating to see how little headroom "a few inches" of substrate is going to leave the snakes. As for the future, I will be building larger 4' - 6' individual enclosures as needed. Even then, I highly doubt that I will ever use substrate. I don't want to be pulling substrate out all over my floor every time I pull a snake out and I do feel that it is impossible to ever get all of the urine and bacteria out of the substrate without completely replacing it every time and that just isn't feasible. I have been considering the possibility of experimenting with artificial grass. I don't know how many cleanings it would stand up to, but otherwise, I think it would be ideal. Have any of you ever tried it?

Thanks so much for taking the time to share all of your knowledge and experience with me, Cloud. I really appreciate it! >8>)

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

I am quite aware of all this and I am just as horrified by the thought of all of these potential disasters (and others) as anyone. I also realize that Boas are especially at risk for breeding complications. I love and adore each and every one of my snakes dearly and they get just as good of care as anyone could possibly provide for them in captivity. I even hold and spend time with every one of them almost every day, so they can stretch out and get a little exercise and also to keep them used to being handled. They are first and foremost, my babies. But, secondly, they are investments. I didn't jump into this venture blindly...



Exactly... That was the whole point of this post. I have been on the fence about whether to plan on ever breeding this boy or just coming to terms with the likelihood that he may just remain a beloved pet. The obvious answer to me was to only breed normals with Super gene animals. But, if I were to ever breed him to a non-super gene animal, I think a Hypo Motley would be an excellent choice. No, neither Hypos, Motleys or Hypo Motleys are worth all that much money, but they are indeed all very popular and affordable. And, as we have discussed, from a business standpoint, it is a wise idea to have lower end (cheaper) animals available for average everyday pet snake buyers. How many of those type of buyers are going to be willing to buy a $350.00 - $40,000.00 pet snake for their 12 year old children?

At this time, my goal is simply for this to become a sideline business that is as profitable as possible (obviously) without going too big. I very well may try to make breeding a full time venture in my elder years at some point if I ever get too old to perform professionally (at the level I do now, at least). That was very much part of my reason for pursuing all of this. I think this is something that I would be very happy and content doing when i'm old and decrepit someday (Aaargh! :() and I believe it could become at least somewhat lucrative. I am and always will be an entrepreneur and I have to be passionate about whatever I am doing. Hence; Why I haven't had a "JOB" job in over 17 years... At this point, I don't really want my personal collection to grow to more than maybe 20 - 30 snakes (including the foreseeable holdbacks I am shooting for in my distant and not so distant future). But, the further I get into this the more I realize how difficult it might become to keep my collection that small. That will depend on how well I am able to move snakes and whether or not I decide to take it to the next level, I guess. Right now, I sorta feel like I showed up late for the game and i'm sorta in a race against time to get some good projects moving along. I am 47 years old and due to the fact that the process takes so long to grow these animals up to sexual maturity (especially Boas) I am trying to get as many desirable pairs in my collection and growing as possible. I mean, I will already be 50 or 51 years old by the time I can even attempt to breed my little Ghost girl and at least one other pair of Boas I see myself acquiring soon... :(



Wow... No kidding??? That is very interesting to hear! I live in Pittsburgh, PA and between November and April the average low temperatures range from 21 - 40 degrees. The high temperatures during those months range from 36 - 63 degrees. Judging by your experience, it sounds like perhaps the rats would probably do fine in one of my garages, yeah? I have read elsewhere on this forum that you will see a drop in production with temperatures below 55 and above 78 and that ideal temperatures are low to mid 70's. What has your experience been with that?



I haven't ever broken down and calculated my actual feeding costs as of yet. I would estimate it's somewhere between $40.00 and $60.00 every 2 months or something, though. At this point all of my snakes are feeding on "appropriate size" rats every 7 days. I am keeping a very close eye on them (especially my Bloods and Short Tails) and if the shape of their bodies start to look fatter than what that particular species ideal body shape should look like I will cut the feedings back as needed. Does that seem reasonable to you?



At this stage of growth, all of my snakes are still in 28 qt. - 41 qt. racks (my adult Ball Pythons will remain in 41 qt. racks). Each rack only has about 5 3/4" of headroom for the snakes. It doesn't take much calculating to see how little headroom "a few inches" of substrate is going to leave the snakes. As for the future, I will be building larger 4' - 6' individual enclosures as needed. Even then, I highly doubt that I will ever use substrate. I don't want to be pulling substrate out all over my floor every time I pull a snake out and I do feel that it is impossible to ever get all of the urine and bacteria out of the substrate without completely replacing it every time and that just isn't feasible. I have been considering the possibility of experimenting with artificial grass. I don't know how many cleanings it would stand up to, but otherwise, I think it would be ideal. Have any of you ever tried it?

Thanks so much for taking the time to share all of your knowledge and experience with me, Cloud. I really appreciate it! >8>)

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Glad to hear you've given some thought. :) That spiel is generally just the first thing I think of when someone mentions getting into breeding, as many folks don't think about it. But since you have, that's a great first step.

From what I've seen (and I'm not actually heavily into the selling market so I may be way off), boas up to about $500-600 don't generally have problems getting sold, even by the "average Joe." A lot of people are willing to pay for quality, even if they don't have plans to breed - after all have you seen the absolute ludicrous prices pet stores charge for their animals?! $120-160 for a normal boa, $800-1,000 for an average quality pied ball python...$300 for a BRB...it's mind-boggling. And those ones generally are low-quality cast-offs from breeders or turn ins from keepers who couldn't handle them anymore. Doesn't mean you won't have a higher sell volume with cheaper snakes, of course. Other breeders also do buy out litters pretty easily, especially if you have lineages in high demand or are in the right circles.

Yes, that's just my experience. Nothing more than plenty of bedding and some shelter and they did fine. Raised 3 generations of rats in this way. I would say that temperature range sounds fine if you're keeping them inside. Much warmer than that, and they start to get lethargic or overheated, I tended to give them frozen water bottles and cucumbers to munch on as well as an extra water bottle to help out during hot days. Luckily the structure I kept them in generally stayed comfortably cool even on a hot summer day.

Weekly should be fine depending on the species, but I generally start my boas out eating every 10-14 days. At a year, they go no more often than 14 days, and by 2 years old they're eating every 3 weeks. At 3+ they get fed every 4-6 weeks. I also feed my 1.5-2 year olds monthly over the winter (a period of 3-4 months), and I begin completely fasting them or feeding them half as often over the winter at 2.5-3 years old.

I've never tried artificial grass, no. I would assume it would need complete bedding changes every time it was soiled, though, as I don't see cleaning it to be a feasible task. For the particulate bedding, I don't think a boa would create enough liquid to fill up the entirety of the bedding in a 4'-6' enclosure. lol I at most pick up the bedding surrounding any feces/urates out to 4". EcoEarth is quite absorbent. If you ever let it dry and make it to the bedding before a fresh dropping dries out, you'll notice the liquid doesn't travel far at all.