New Owner Worries

Hi everyone, I apologise in advance for this long post and the constant use of Royal not Ball, but i'll try and break it down so you can skip bits:

Background

Last year while on holiday my son watched a wildlife show and got picked to handle a corn snake, since then he has always asked for one. So the wife and I decided that if he can save up some money he can get one..... Thinking that a 6 yr old would never save. But lo and behold he save all his Christmas money, Birthday money and even money from bits like Easter. So when he gathered £250 and asked if he can have a snake and having known he researched lots of you tube videos we couldn't say no. He is also autistic so we thought a pet would be nice for him to calm him and give him something to focus on.

We originally planed on a corn snake but having spoken to some reptile experts at a local zoo we frequently visit they suggested a Royal Python as they are slightly larger and slower to handle compared to the more slimline and agile corns... amongst all the other pro's and con's.

So we took him to a pet shop that was highly recommended and there he got to handle a corn and a royal, with him falling in love with the Royal.

Set Up

We opted for the forever home set up which looks like below:

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/cool_end.jpg


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../1/hot_end.jpg

The Vivarium is 48x18x18, we are using a Ceramic heater on a pulse stat. We have 2 hides a small branch, large water bowl, foliage and currently using exo terra snake bedding.

The hot end is around 32 Degrees Celsius (34 at probe) and the cool end is circa 27 Degrees in the cool end (Using a thermo gun).


The Snake​

the snake is roughly 7 months old and currently weighing in at:
He was supposed to be eating weekly rat pups.


The Concerns:

Since we have had the snake it seems to spend 95% of its time in the cool end in its cool hide, even when switching hides around or placing him in the hot end after a handle. It always goes to the cool end.

It has not eaten for the last 7 weeks, it will go and put its head next to the feed, then just not show any interest.

It has done one poo since we have had it, so now i am guessing it hasn't anything inside.

While i understand they can go without food for quite some time I'm concerned as to why it's gone from a regular strike feeder to food shy, i would have hoped that by week 5 it would have settled in and be ready to eat.

I've tried:
* Leaving the feed over night in case it was shy
* Tried different times in case it was a late night eater (around midnight compared to 8 pm when my son can try and feed)
* Tried Braining the rat pups
* Tried swapping from Rat pup to small mice in case it wanted something different



So i was hoping for either some reassurance (So i can re assure my son as he's getting worried) or some pointers for us newbies so we can improve the life of our snake.

Thanks for reading.

Ideally , add some branches and /or pieces of bark ( all from local woods / forest or garden ) .

Also at least two hides one at warm side one at cooler end ( ideally identical hides ) .

As regards getting it to eat ,.


This method WORKS if done properly ...
I wait until evening as they're nocturnal of course . I let the rodent thaw out in the reptile room so they get the smell ..
Then I warm up the mouse / rat with a hairdryer and offer with tongs IMMEDIATELY whilst still warm . If refused simply repeat the heating and offering as many times as needed. .
A couple of mine will only strike feed from within their hides so I dangle the warm rodent in front of the hide's entrance - usually works but if it fails simply reheat the rodent with a hairdryer and immediately offer again whilst it's still warm :cens0r:continue until it's grabbed ...
I always wait until evenings to feed as they're nocturnal of course .

Incidentally , if it shows no interest at all not even a tongue flicker maybe it's best to leave for a week or so.

I

I'm confused, was he eating for you initially and then stopped or was he eating well for the pet shop but not for you?

The enclosure is huge for a royal of that size. I would add more identical hides (at least one in the middle). Your enclosure is so big there may some area in the middle with a more ideal temp for him. Also can't hurt to clutter the floor up more. All this is to help him feel more secure which could be the feeding issue.

As for feeding, I agree with Zincubus. But just to make sure, was the pet shop feeding frozen rat pups too?


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First off, welcome!
And congrats on getting your son his first snake. Huge props to him for saving up AND doing some online research!! That's awesome!!! I find my snakes to be very therapeutic, so I think you and your son made a great choice. I deal with depression and anxiety and am a recovering alcoholic and drug addict and my animals, especially my snakes, sometimes help me to get through the day.


Ok, the snake isn't eating, so let's figure out why....

Based on what I have read and can see, your BP, sorry, Royal for our friends in the UK :D, is probably feeling shy and not secure enough in his forever enclosure.

BPs can be very finicky eaters. The main reasons they refuse at that age are almost always husbandry related.
-So, starting with your temps (I had to convert to Fahrenheit because....America, hahaha, we also still use inches and feet like a country of fools) I see you're in good shape there.
-The next thing to consider is security. That enclosure doesn't offer much security in the eyes of a snake. If a BP doesn't feel safe and secure, it will often refuse food in order to be able to escape faster if threatened. My suggestions would be to consider a smaller temporary enclosure, you could even put it directly inside your forever enclosure. The RUBs that I see others in the UK using might be your best option for now. If you're reluctant to try that right away, just try adding some clutter to the enclosure, ie more plants, rocks, sticks etc...just make sure anything you use is safe and properly cleaned/disinfected (more on that later if you're interested).


The bottom line is this though: the snake needs to start eating. So, as responsible snake keepers, we need figure out why and we need to do what the animal needs us to do to get them eating. We may not like the look of a RUB or temporary enclosure as much as a Viv, but a hungry, malnourished, skinny, dehydrated snake doesn't look good in a viv either. Nor is it fair for the animal. So sometimes we need to sacrifice our wants for the animals needs.
If you want to try adding more clutter and security to the viv and see what happens, I say go for it. If the food strike continues it may be time to try a temporary plan B...

Good luck, keep us posted. We're here to answer any questions we can and help you, your son and your snake :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPGator

I'm confused, was he eating for you initially and then stopped or was he eating well for the pet shop but not for you?

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Sorry, he was eating for the shop owner. he has never ate for us.

Thanks everyone for the advice, I'll look at getting some more things to clutter the floor up and another identical hide to place in the middle for now. we tried feeding last night so if i get the bits tonight i'll see how he goes next Sunday :)

So I finished work early to get down to the reptile shop.

Here's the new layouts, kind of went from one extreme to another :rolleyes:


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../1/new_hot.jpg


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/new_cold.jpg


So now i guess I'll let him settle then try to feed him again Sunday night.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YoJimbo

So I finished work early to get down to the reptile shop.

Here's the new layouts, kind of went from one extreme to another :rolleyes:


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../1/new_hot.jpg


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/new_cold.jpg


So now i guess I'll let him settle then try to feed him again Sunday night.

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that looks lovely!!! definitely more cozy.

good luck, sunday! :gj:

Looks good!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YoJimbo

So I finished work early to get down to the reptile shop.

Here's the new layouts, kind of went from one extreme to another :rolleyes:


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../1/new_hot.jpg


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/new_cold.jpg


So now i guess I'll let him settle then try to feed him again Sunday night.

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That's one of the nicest setups I've seen , looking real good .

Nice work !!



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Thanks everyone for the advice, last night he was all over the place having a good old explore and today he's not hiding inside the cool shelter but actually curled up with his head just outside.

So I have a few other queries I'd like to ask you BP veterans:


1) During the set up of the viv i placed a single row LED strip that set to blue and not very bright (Purely for us to see in). Is LED lighting OK or does this irritate the snakes? I don't have it on often at the minute as I'm unsure of it.


2) Taking temperature readings.. currently i am using a thermo gun for surface readings (as i have been for my bearded dragon for years) or should i be looking at air temps? given that i'm using a ceramic for heat?



As always the info seems to be 50/50 so I am just curious what the consensus is here as I want to try and get everything perfect for both the snake and my son.


Thanks again for your time :)

1) The light, if just used occasionally will be perfectly fine for your BP. BPs don't need a light cycle, but you mentioned that the light is purely for your viewing. I would leave it off when you aren't using it for viewing, but otherwise you're fine with that light.

2) You want to get the actual surface temp (the glass below the substrate) for your hotspot using your thermo gun.
You also want to get the ambient (air temps) temps using a regular thermometer. This is where the temp gradient comes into play creating a cool
and a warm side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

1) The light, if just used occasionally will be perfectly fine for your BP. BPs don't need a light cycle, but you mentioned that the light is purely for your viewing. I would leave it off when you aren't using it for viewing, but otherwise you're fine with that light.

2) You want to get the actual surface temp (the glass below the substrate) for your hotspot using your thermo gun.
You also want to get the ambient (air temps) temps using a regular thermometer. This is where the temp gradient comes into play creating a cool
and a warm side.

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Perfect response IMHO

Well Sunday came and went :(.

Once again tried to feed him at 23:30 with a warmed rat pup (soaked in near hot water for around 2 mins) rat pup showed as 38 degrees with thermo gun (100F i think).


And once again he looked at it then turned his head and just ignored it, no matter how i wiggled it near his head, tried leaving it at the entrance of his plant hiding area but he didn't have it.


So I'm back at the start looking if there is other factors..

Don't sweat it yet. Sometimes, even when husbandry is spot on, it still takes time.

It could also be the prey, the preparation of the prey, etc... Some BPs are finicky, so we need to try different feeding techniques and do what works for that specific animal once we have it figured out. For example, My BP, Tyson, will only eat if I defrost straight from the freezer and feed him immediately. If I thaw overnight, or thaw any other way, he won't eat. So I do what works for him, and he eats regularly...for now...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YoJimbo

Well Sunday came and went :(.

Once again tried to feed him at 23:30 with a warmed rat pup (soaked in near hot water for around 2 mins) rat pup showed as 38 degrees with thermo gun (100F i think).


And once again he looked at it then turned his head and just ignored it, no matter how i wiggled it near his head, tried leaving it at the entrance of his plant hiding area but he didn't have it.


So I'm back at the start looking if there is other factors..

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Try to let it defrost naturally in the snake room , or on a heat mat or something. ... anyway rather than soaking in water .

I have a couple of Albino royals who simply won't take mice warmed in water - I presumed I was washing the smell away . It's the aroma they smell / taste along with the 'heat' that presumably triggers the strike ....


Those two I mentioned will eat every time as long as I offer every ten to fourteen days - they aren't interested in eating weekly .

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Some snakes are just weird about taking their feeds, I've heard/seen all of these:

• Snake only takes it when heated past 100F.
• Snake only takes it when scented, permanently.
• Snake only takes it when prey is left overnight.
• Snake only takes it when offered head first.
• Snake only takes it when offered legs/tail first.
• Snake only takes it after its been zombie walked around.
• Snake only takes it if in its hide.
• Snake only takes it when out of hide.
• Snake only takes it if tapped against its snout.
• Snake only takes it if you make it "fight" after strike.
• Snake only eats girl rodents.
• Snake only eats boy rodents.
• Snake only eats albino rodents.
• Snake only eats colored rodents.
• Snake only eats gerbils, soft-furs (prey imprinted).

BPs are... finicky, suffice to say. Makes them hard first snakes.

Mine personally often takes a while to strike (5+ minutes) and only perks up if I let it thaw in the room with him then heat it up with a blow dryer long enough for him to wake up. Head has to be heated much higher than the body. No moving it. Just tap it against his snout so he knows it's time to eat (I guess) then wait for him to line it up. He's a little... Uh. Special. No wonder the breeder said he likes to skip weeks since feeding day is a little bit of a ritual for him. But I count my blessings that he isn't outright scared of his food like some BPs will be.

Essentially, you might have to try a lot of stuff to see what works for yours. They're each individuals, no-one's method is really going to work for all snakes, but some tend to work better than others (like braining prey).

If he responds to the food and shows interest (following it, tongue flicking, alert) you have a hungry snake and just need to figure out what it takes to make the little guy realize its food time and chug it down for you.

Gets easier after that, once you and the snake are on the same page.

Oh yeah, random addition past edit timeline:

Call the shop where you got them. Ask to speak to whoever normally feeds the snakes. Say your BPs not eating, you have the husbandry right, could you please go through (in detail) how you feed them at the shop? Ask for minute details. Then mimic how the shop did it.

Also ask for some used mouse or rat bedding. throw the rat in it to defrost. Worked for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hollowlaughter

Some snakes are just weird about taking their feeds, I've heard/seen all of these:

• Snake only takes it when heated past 100F.
• Snake only takes it when scented, permanently.
• Snake only takes it when prey is left overnight.
• Snake only takes it when offered head first.
• Snake only takes it when offered legs/tail first.
• Snake only takes it after its been zombie walked around.
• Snake only takes it if in its hide.
• Snake only takes it when out of hide.
• Snake only takes it if tapped against its snout.
• Snake only takes it if you make it "fight" after strike.
• Snake only eats girl rodents.
• Snake only eats boy rodents.
• Snake only eats albino rodents.
• Snake only eats colored rodents.
• Snake only eats gerbils, soft-furs (prey imprinted).

BPs are... finicky, suffice to say. Makes them hard first snakes.

Mine personally often takes a while to strike (5+ minutes) and only perks up if I let it thaw in the room with him then heat it up with a blow dryer long enough for him to wake up. Head has to be heated much higher than the body. No moving it. Just tap it against his snout so he knows it's time to eat (I guess) then wait for him to line it up. He's a little... Uh. Special. No wonder the breeder said he likes to skip weeks since feeding day is a little bit of a ritual for him. But I count my blessings that he isn't outright scared of his food like some BPs will be.

Essentially, you might have to try a lot of stuff to see what works for yours. They're each individuals, no-one's method is really going to work for all snakes, but some tend to work better than others (like braining prey).

If he responds to the food and shows interest (following it, tongue flicking, alert) you have a hungry snake and just need to figure out what it takes to make the little guy realize its food time and chug it down for you.

Gets easier after that, once you and the snake are on the same page.

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Maybe the one you mentioned would be better on a longer schedule like my pair of albinos - every 10 to 14 days ??


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Wow i knew they could be picky eaters, but i didn't realise to that extent.

the current (and broken ritual) used to be:

1) thaw the ratpup in a open plastic tub next to the viv for him to smell (usualy thawed for 12 hrs)
2) place the ratpup in a plastic sandwich bag (supposidly to preserve smell)
3) place bag in warm water to warm mouse up

Then try to feed.

I'll contact the store and get his feed ritual off him down to the little details.

Thanks everyone for your great advice :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Maybe the one you mentioned would be better on a longer schedule like my pair of albinos - every 10 to 14 days ??


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Oh, he'll eat on a 7 day cycle (or less if given the chance), just he seems what I'd call "hesitant to strike". Breeder had him on a maintenance diet so I'm trying to get him plumped up a bit. I heat it and he shows IMMENSE interest if I do it in the same room as him but then when I offer the prey to him he just loves to stare at it a bit, like he's appreciating the detail in the "plating". Lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YoJimbo

Wow i knew they could be picky eaters, but i didn't realise to that extent.

the current (and broken ritual) used to be:

1) thaw the ratpup in a open plastic tub next to the viv for him to smell (usualy thawed for 12 hrs)
2) place the ratpup in a plastic sandwich bag (supposidly to preserve smell)
3) place bag in warm water to warm mouse up

Then try to feed.

I'll contact the store and get his feed ritual off him down to the little details.

Thanks everyone for your great advice :D

---

To be honest with mine the important thing is to have the mouse WARM and that's why I warm with a hairdryer then offer IMMEDIATELY , usually takes a few reheats and they grab it ...


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Maybe I missed it but I didn't see humidity mentioned? If you are heating with a ceramic, odds are that it's drying out the air so if you are not misting on a regular basis then he is probably very dry and they do not like to be dry. What is your humidity?

Ahh mmm well i was talked around by the store owner in regards to Humidity.

I did mention this to him but he gave me the whole I've been breeding for x amount of years and humidity has never been a problem in the UK. As long as a water bowl is kept in the viv it shouldn't be an issue.
He was quite convincing and made me feel daft so i took his word for it.

So needless to say I'm now looking at getting a Thermo-Hygrometer to check the ambient temps and humidity of the viv, that and I'm going to start misting the viv a little till i know what the % is.


Guess i should have stuck to my guns on this subject, but he was very convincing. :oops:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YoJimbo

Ahh mmm well i was talked around by the store owner in regards to Humidity.

I did mention this to him but he gave me the whole I've been breeding for x amount of years and humidity has never been a problem in the UK. As long as a water bowl is kept in the viv it shouldn't be an issue.
He was quite convincing and made me feel daft so i took his word for it.

So needless to say I'm now looking at getting a Thermo-Hygrometer to check the ambient temps and humidity of the viv, that and I'm going to start misting the viv a little till i know what the % is.


Guess i should have stuck to my guns on this subject, but he was very convincing. :oops:

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LOL. It is rather damp there. I live right next to a huge humid swamp and even here if you are running heat or ac it can suck the humidity right out of the air inside. My cure is that I open the windows at night but there that is probably not an option there very often so I am thinking that the store owner is just full of it.

Where I live is supposedly humid too, but with the roommates running the AC all summer and heat all winter, the air gets pretty dry in here. Plus I have to use a CHE for my ambient temps in my current setup, so I use moss to offset that.

(It's 87% outside thanks to rain, and he's sitting at about the same inside since he's blue.)

In an enclosure like yours it shouldn't be too hard to maintain humidity, but if you're having trouble getting it to the usual 55-60% range, using moss in the hides or offering a moist hide is a good solution to supplement a water bowl. If he's shedding (the eyes look blue, body color dulls) you should aim to get the humidity up to around 80% during that process.

:O:O:O Well i went out to the reptile store and bought a lucky Rep Thermo-Hygrometer pro reader and placed it in the viv.

Cold End:
70F with 51% humid

Hot End:
81F with 50% humid.

Yet when i go with the thermo gun the surface temps are 92f in the hot end and 80F in the cold end.

So which do i go by? do i go by the air temp or surface temp? If i increase the air temp then surface temps will go up. So now I'm royally confused :confusd::confusd:

Surface temps - temp gun everytime IMHO .

The surface is crucial as its where your snake is lying / sleeping ..


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Yep, judge by your surface temps. A heat gradient going up > down can be just as useful as one going left > right. Allows for more thermoregulation if you give the snake opportunities to climb upward.

The 50% is ok, though getting it a LITTLE higher just to be safe might be worth it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YoJimbo

:O:O:O Well i went out to the reptile store and bought a lucky Rep Thermo-Hygrometer pro reader and placed it in the viv.

Cold End:
70F with 51% humid

Hot End:
81F with 50% humid.

Yet when i go with the thermo gun the surface temps are 92f in the hot end and 80F in the cold end.

So which do i go by? do i go by the air temp or surface temp? If i increase the air temp then surface temps will go up. So now I'm royally confused :confusd::confusd:

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BPs being a terrestrial species, the surface temps are what you want to focus on. Your BP will spend almost all of it's time on the ground, so those temps are most important.