yet another 'my bp is not eating' thread

1. How long have you had your ball python? I got her on February 1, 2016. She weighed 95g. The breeder had her on mice fuzzies.



2. How old (or how big) is your snake? She was hatched July 15, 2016. She is currently 208g.



3. Does it eat on a regular schedule? She did when I got her. I switched her to rat pinkies and then rat fuzzies and she was taking them every 5 - 7 days. Before she stopped eating she had taken 2 rat pups for me.



4. How long since its last meal? Her last meal was a 20g rat on June 7th. She'd skipped a few meals before that one, too. She'd had a meal on May 20th of 30g rat. She'd weighed 250g on May 13th.



5. What type/size prey is being offered? Frozen/thawed rat pups (which weigh between 20 and 30g, I get them in bulk frozen from PerfectPrey)



6. How often do you offer food? When I first got her, she was very thin and the breeder was underfeeding her. I was offering every 5 days. After she'd had a few meals that were appropriate size I started doing every 7 days. I thaw the rodents overnight in the fridge. When I get home from work around 7pm, they come out of the fridge and sit on the counter for about 2 hours to get to room temp. Then I boil water, pour the water into a ceramic bowl, place a ceramic plate on top of the bowl, and put the rodents on the plate, rotating them every 15 minutes until all of the body is at 100F (which I measure w a temp gun). I then run the heads under hot running water (while in a plastic bag so it stays dry) until the head is around 110F. Then I use tongs to do a zombie dance.



7. What type and size of enclosure does it live in? She is currently in a divided Animal Plastics T8. So she has 2x2 feet. I was a total newb who thought proper research was done, and she was in a 20gL acquariam. I had the top mostly covered in saran wrap to keep in humidity, and I had 3 of the 4 walls covered in foam board to keep heat in and so she felt more enclosed. My T8 arrived in May and she was moved May 13th (weighed her that day). I waited a full week for her to settle in before trying to feed her, even though she'd skipped the previous meal.



8. What are you using as substrate? If it has depth, how deep is it? I use paper towels. About 3 or 4 layers. She likes tp burrow under it and makes tunnels.



9. What type of heating do you use? I used flexwatt under tank heater.



10. Do you use a thermostat to control temperatures? I am using a Jumpstart thermostat for right now. Herpstats are on sale so I bought one this morning, hopefully it will be coming in soon.



11. What do you use to measure/monitor temperatures? I use two Acurite thermometers/hygrometers. I have one that is indoor/outdoor and one that's just indoor. The indoor/outdoor one has a probe that I placed on the warm side ground, and the unit itself sits on the cool side (in the front). The other accurite sits in the back of the enclosure. I also have an IR temp gun.



12. What are the surface and ambient temperatures in the enclosure? Surface on warm side is current 89.2 cool side is 78, ambient is 77.



13. What is the average humidity level? Currently 70%



14. How many and what type of hides does the snake have? She has five total hides. She has two medium Exo Terra Caves, one on each side.These are super snug around her. She has two medium hides from Reptile Basics. These are not so tight on her, but I put crinkled paper in them and she likes to burrow around in it. She has one of these on each side. The fifth one I can't find a product page for, but it's a tree stump. It's enclosed on all sides and has one entrance and there is a top to it. This one is in the middle back of the enclosure. I've also got a lot of flukers leaves in there to give her some cover.



15. Is water readily available at all times? Yes. She has a medium crock dish I bought from reptile basics, it's large enough for her to soak in. It's in the middle middle of the enclosure, and she's got a smaller dish too that I have between her two warm side hides. She likes to poke her head out, drink from that one, and then go back in. Having the medium one on the warm side created too much humidity. Having the smaller one on the warm side and the medium on the middle gets the humidity just right.



16. Does the snake live alone or does it share the enclosure with anything else? She is in a divided T8. She has her side all to herself. the other side has a male BRB in it. He obviously has different heating / humidity needs, and I've got him on his own heating pad and I've got some of his vents blocked off to help with humidity. He's on paper towels too, but he has some sphagnum moss in the corner, and in addition to his warm and cool hides, he's got one in the middle filled with sphagnum moss. The eventual plan is to get him an Animal Plastics T12 and let my BP have the T8 all to herself after I clean out/sterilize his side and remove the divider. That will probably happen next summer.



17. How often and for how long is the snake typically handled? I have not handled her at all since May 13th, when I moved her to the T8 except to weigh her, and once to move her out of the way so I could clean. Her being weighed is no more than 5 minutes and happens every two weeks. I did a thorough cleaning last sunday. I removed all but the hide she was in, disinfected her cage decor with warm water and vinegar/bleach solution (soaked for about 1 hr, then rinsed thoroughly and left to dry). I removed and completely changed her paper towels (she was still in the hide in the enclosure), and wiped down the walls / floor with warm water. I then swapped her hides out so I could clean the one and lifted her up to put down new paper towels. Wasn't handled for more than 30 seconds. Prior to her hunger strike I was handling her about twice a week for 10 minutes, never on the day I fed her, or the two days after that.



18. Does the snake have any medical history (old injuries or illnesses)? None that I know of, I asked the breeder and he said she was fine.



19. Do you have any other reptiles? Have you brought in any new reptiles recently? I have a BRB. Prior to moving into his half of the T8 he was in a sterelite bin set up. I had a kitchen rack and the BP's aquarium was in the middle rack and his bin was on the top rack. Bottom rack was there supplies.



20. Is there anything specific or unique about your situation that we should be aware of? She was super docile before she went on her hunger strike. never struck at me, never got tense. Now she is angry and bity. I've been tagged twice by her now when I was in there refilling her water bowl (doesn't hurt, much rather be bit by her than one of my cats).

I've been offering her a f/t rat every seven days. She refused again last night. At first I was leaving the rats in over night, but she doesn't touch them and seems more stressed by them being in there. So the last two times if she hasn't struck after 20 minutes of me doing the zombie dance, it gets tossed. Last night she did two defensive strikes and then slithered quickly away as if super scared.

I am wondering if she can smell the BRB? But he is eating just fine and I don't have to do the zombie dance with him, he gets wiff of his rat and the next thing I know it's gone and he's got it halfway down his throat.

I have a weighted curtain type situation going on to keep the cats from being interested at night. In the morning I turn on their lights (I've got a wireless light set up inside with some Ikea LEDs) and remove the curtain. Once the sun sets I turn off their lights and put the curtain down. It's cat proof so far. It is in the living room, in a corner, but the living room isn't a very busy room, still considering moving it to my bedroom, which only gets used for sleeping since I moved my gaming set up to another room.

Any advice for getting her to eat? Right now I am planning to not try again for two weeks, but she has lost some weight since I moved her. I think some of that might be the massive poop she took shortly after getting to her new enclosure. But still, she's super small for her age.

If you want her to eat with more consistency I would downsize, I would not suggest a 20 gallons for a snake until it is at least 500 grams let alone having a 200+ grams snakes in a T8 for most of them it does not work, I would also suggest the use of Aspen or Coco coir chips or mulch as a substrate.

A snake in the 200 grams should be voracious if it’s not you need to provide more security and you do that with a smaller enclosure and very tight hides.

Thank you for the reply! Aspen is prone to molding, and in a high humidity environment like BP's require, that molding can happen quickly. I chose not to use aspen because of this reason.

As far as coco goes, I tried that, too. And the humidity shot up into the 90% range, which is way to much humidity.

Yes, she is in a T8, but she is only in half of it. She has plenty of hides and a ton of clutter. Two of her hides are very very snug, and the other two are full of crinkled paper so they are also very snug.

She was eating very well in her 20gallon, but I had difficulties in keeping her ambient temps and her humidity in the correct places.

If your snake is not eating you can

A/ Make changes that will help promote feeding behavior (a simple 15 quart plastic tub would help achieve that)

B/Keep doing what you doing

Aspen does mold so you change it more often, coco coir has higher humidity you dry it off first, for every problem there is a solution, those substrate help with security paper towel doe not.

I have put considerable thought into my substrate choices, I have put significant research into this decision. Paper towels are what I am using. Changing a substrate completely and totally with the frequency which aspen requires (and I tried aspen as my first substrate) would upset the BP more. I have read in my research no benefit from aspen with security. Most forums I have visited I have advised against using aspen. You are the first person of the over 100 people who have given me help to suggest it. If you have proof that aspen is more beneficial than others, please link it to me. But my days and weeks and months of research have led me to make the informed decision not to use it.

As far as coco goes, again. I have tried it. It was useful in her aquarium when I was having troubles with humidity, but she did not like it and avoided slithering on it if she could instead traverse the acquariam over her toys.

Additionally, my research has concluded in the fact that larger spaces are OK as long as you have enough clutter for them to feel invisible in their enclosure. I have done so with vines, multiple tight hides, and the privacy curtain which is used at night. This is advice from multiple other forums, all of which linked to detailed research about this.

If you ahve other advice, I am open to it, but on substrate and container size, she is not being moved.

You can put a smaller tub like a 15-qt into the half of the T8 your snake is in, the heat from the UTH will transfer through though you may have to bump it up a bit. Put half the tub over the heat pad.

Also instead of "zombie dancing" the feeder try just leaving it with its nose next to the opening of whatever hide your snake is using, and walk away. Do it at dusk and leave it overnight. Too much activity from the feeder can throw a shy snake off its food.

Thank you fro the advice, I will leave out the zombie dance next time. 9:00pm is right after dusk right now, so I will try a little earlier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdax

I have put considerable thought into my substrate choices, I have put significant research into this decision. Paper towels are what I am using. Changing a substrate completely and totally with the frequency which aspen requires (and I tried aspen as my first substrate) would upset the BP more. I have read in my research no benefit from aspen with security. Most forums I have visited I have advised against using aspen. You are the first person of the over 100 people who have given me help to suggest it. If you have proof that aspen is more beneficial than others, please link it to me. But my days and weeks and months of research have led me to make the informed decision not to use it.

As far as coco goes, again. I have tried it. It was useful in her aquarium when I was having troubles with humidity, but she did not like it and avoided slithering on it if she could instead traverse the acquariam over her toys.

Additionally, my research has concluded in the fact that larger spaces are OK as long as you have enough clutter for them to feel invisible in their enclosure. I have done so with vines, multiple tight hides, and the privacy curtain which is used at night. This is advice from multiple other forums, all of which linked to detailed research about this.

If you ahve other advice, I am open to it, but on substrate and container size, she is not being moved.

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You can't ask for advice and not be willing to make changes, we'll actually you can, just don't expect people to bother.

I could take each point and tell you that you are wrong but I won't waste my time, you were offered viable PROVEN solutions that have work for many, now it' up to YOU. YOU are the one complaining about feeding issues and lacking the experience to help fix them, not me.

Good luck.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I am perfectly willing to make changes. When I first started out keeping reptiles, I had a lot of problematic husbandry issues, and after receiving advice on other herp forums / message boards / sub reddits, I made a lot of significant changes and improvements. She is no longer on incredibly awful aspen, she is no longer in a glass aquarium, she is no longer eating prey that is too small for her / prey that is not nutritious (mice). I got rid of inaccurate and unsafe stick on analogue thermometers / hygrometers and got more accurate and more safe ones. Moving her from an aquarium to half of a T8 was the advice of multiple people on multiple other forums full of people who keep many BP's as well as other snakes. I was willing to make modifications to my glass tank while waiting for my AP cage. These modifications were not aesthetically pleasing (saran wrap over the lid / foam board over the sides) but I did them anyways because I prioritize the health and safety of my pets.

If you want to hurl insults at me, demean me, and act with hostility towards me because I made informed choices that differ from your opinion, I guess that speaks to the kind of person you are. Since you are a super moderator, I guess that speaks to the character of these forums. I was warned that this forum was full of misguided and ill-informed herpers, but I was hoping for a fifth opinion on what is going on. The other people were correct about this forum. Anyone who thinks that aspen is a viable choice for a substrate for a ball python is not someone I want to assist me. To keep aspen mold free, it would need to be changed at least 3 times a week. I am not going to be stressing my BP out and messing with her 3 times a week. It is not that I am lazy and don't want to clean her enclosure. I check the water and look for waste every day. It is that aspen is a poor choice for a high humidity snake. It might be perfectly fine for corn snakes or other snakes that do not have high humidity needs, but for BP's it is sub-optimal. I do not see how putting my BP onto sub-optimal substrate, and then bothering her three times a week to change it would actually help her get eating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdax

I am perfectly willing to make changes. When I first started out keeping reptiles, I had a lot of problematic husbandry issues, and after receiving advice on other herp forums / message boards / sub reddits, I made a lot of significant changes and improvements. She is no longer on incredibly awful aspen, she is no longer in a glass aquarium, she is no longer eating prey that is too small for her / prey that is not nutritious (mice). I got rid of inaccurate and unsafe stick on analogue thermometers / hygrometers and got more accurate and more safe ones. Moving her from an aquarium to half of a T8 was the advice of multiple people on multiple other forums full of people who keep many BP's as well as other snakes. I was willing to make modifications to my glass tank while waiting for my AP cage. These modifications were not aesthetically pleasing (saran wrap over the lid / foam board over the sides) but I did them anyways because I prioritize the health and safety of my pets.

If you want to hurl insults at me, demean me, and act with hostility towards me because I made informed choices that differ from your opinion, I guess that speaks to the kind of person you are. Since you are a super moderator, I guess that speaks to the character of these forums. I was warned that this forum was full of misguided and ill-informed herpers, but I was hoping for a fifth opinion on what is going on. The other people were correct about this forum. Anyone who thinks that aspen is a viable choice for a substrate for a ball python is not someone I want to assist me. To keep aspen mold free, it would need to be changed at least 3 times a week. I am not going to be stressing my BP out and messing with her 3 times a week. It is not that I am lazy and don't want to clean her enclosure. I check the water and look for waste every day. It is that aspen is a poor choice for a high humidity snake. It might be perfectly fine for corn snakes or other snakes that do not have high humidity needs, but for BP's it is sub-optimal. I do not see how putting my BP onto sub-optimal substrate, and then bothering her three times a week to change it would actually help her get eating.

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No insult was hurled at you. You asked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdax

I am perfectly willing to make changes. When I first started out keeping reptiles, I had a lot of problematic husbandry issues, and after receiving advice on other herp forums / message boards / sub reddits, I made a lot of significant changes and improvements. She is no longer on incredibly awful aspen, she is no longer in a glass aquarium, she is no longer eating prey that is too small for her / prey that is not nutritious (mice). I got rid of inaccurate and unsafe stick on analogue thermometers / hygrometers and got more accurate and more safe ones. Moving her from an aquarium to half of a T8 was the advice of multiple people on multiple other forums full of people who keep many BP's as well as other snakes. I was willing to make modifications to my glass tank while waiting for my AP cage. These modifications were not aesthetically pleasing (saran wrap over the lid / foam board over the sides) but I did them anyways because I prioritize the health and safety of my pets.

If you want to hurl insults at me, demean me, and act with hostility towards me because I made informed choices that differ from your opinion, I guess that speaks to the kind of person you are. Since you are a super moderator, I guess that speaks to the character of these forums. I was warned that this forum was full of misguided and ill-informed herpers, but I was hoping for a fifth opinion on what is going on. The other people were correct about this forum. Anyone who thinks that aspen is a viable choice for a substrate for a ball python is not someone I want to assist me. To keep aspen mold free, it would need to be changed at least 3 times a week. I am not going to be stressing my BP out and messing with her 3 times a week. It is not that I am lazy and don't want to clean her enclosure. I check the water and look for waste every day. It is that aspen is a poor choice for a high humidity snake. It might be perfectly fine for corn snakes or other snakes that do not have high humidity needs, but for BP's it is sub-optimal. I do not see how putting my BP onto sub-optimal substrate, and then bothering her three times a week to change it would actually help her get eating.

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Yep willing to listen so long you hear what you want to hear sadly pretty typical.

It's not about my opionion, it's about proven facts, trust me if you were keeping animals the way I do you would fail so it's not about how I keep my animals or my opinion on how to keep them it's about what works to help YOUR snake.

Insulted really?

Food for the thoughtd, guidance and advice do not mean that you will hear what you want to hear, it means you will receive advice based on experience and what is known to work.

Again you don't have to listen it's YOUR snake.

Anyway good luck again.....I know rude ;)

I know it is not always what I want to hear, but the advice you gave was bad advice. I am allowed to disregard it as the bad advice it is. I did not want to hear that the $60 glass tank I got for my new baby was useless. I did not want to hear that the $10 humidity gauge I bought was useless. I did not want to hear that the $10 bag of aspen I bought was useless. But I went out the next day and did something about it because that's what responsible pet owners do. The people on reddit were firm, blunt, and to the point. But they provided facts, links, and recommendations without calling into question my commitment to doing the right thing. They did it without hostility, aggression, or abuse of moderator privileges. They were not about to hand hold, but they also didn't try to slap my hand or stick my nose in my snakes pooop. The consensus that has been reached in many parts of the BP community is that aspen isn't appropriate. You are the first person I've ever EVER seen in all of my internet searching that has suggested it aside from PetCo/Smart. When I visited ReptiCon and asked various breeders about their own husbandry, all of them said aspen was a no-go. When I went to a vivarium while I was out of town to just check out what they did, they didn't even sell aspen. If it works for you, whatever, but I've made an informed decision not to use it.

I've had other members PM me advice, and I am really thankful for that and will be trying what they suggested. I'll change my feeding times, I won't be trying the zombie dance, I'll be letting the rat get to room temperature in the same room as my enclosure, having it sit on top of it (with my cats safely locked outside of that room) so that she can smell it earlier and maybe decide she is hungry, and I'll be going down a prey size to see if that helps. I am really thankful for all the people who have PM'd me these tips and the ones who PM'd just to commiserate how stressful it is to have a BP that won't eat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdax

Additionally, my research has concluded in the fact that larger spaces are OK as long as you have enough clutter for them to feel invisible in their enclosure. I have done so with vines, multiple tight hides, and the privacy curtain which is used at night. This is advice from multiple other forums, all of which linked to detailed research about this.
If you have other advice, I am open to it, but on substrate and container size, she is not being moved.

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I would re-research your research...... Your animal is not eating or a reason and at that size it should be.
There are many well experienced keepers here, many that have been doing it for decades and Deb is one that is always on point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdax

If you want to hurl insults at me, demean me, and act with hostility towards me because I made informed choices that differ from your opinion, I guess that speaks to the kind of person you are. Since you are a super moderator, I guess that speaks to the character of these forums. I was warned that this forum was full of misguided and ill-informed herpers, but I was hoping for a fifth opinion on what is going on. The other people were correct about this forum. Anyone who thinks that aspen is a viable choice for a substrate for a ball python is not someone I want to assist me. To keep aspen mold free, it would need to be changed at least 3 times a week. I am not going to be stressing my BP out and messing with her 3 times a week. It is not that I am lazy and don't want to clean her enclosure. I check the water and look for waste every day. It is that aspen is a poor choice for a high humidity snake. It might be perfectly fine for corn snakes or other snakes that do not have high humidity needs, but for BP's it is sub-optimal. I do not see how putting my BP onto sub-optimal substrate, and then bothering her three times a week to change it would actually help her get eating.

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What insults or hostility? Please stop with the pity party and read what is posted, you can feel how you want but you might what to read a post for what it is and not adlib to what you want to envision it to be.
FYI aspen will mold if you keep it too wet but myself and many others don't have a problem with it and can usually get it last close to a month with spot cleanings before a substrate change. Also shredded doesn't seem to mold as quickly as flakes.


askhole (true definition)

those people who demand that you explain, prove, or provide evidence, or cites, etc, to an idea you are presenting... but then when you DO provide information to read, watch, listen to, they REFUSE (ignore-ance?) to review the information, because they were being DISHONEST about being open to the truth, or even willing to respectfully review the information which THEY DEMEANINGLY DEMANDED of you.

Very confused at the aspen hate-I only use it in the hognose cage now but used it for years in the ball pythons setup and have never seen it mold. High humidity doesn't equal wet substrate.

I used aspen for a long time. I don't any more, but I never once had mold...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I would re-research your research...... Your animal is not eating or a reason and at that size it should be.
There are many well experienced keepers here, many that have been doing it for decades and Deb is one that is always on point.



What insults or hostility? Please stop with the pity party and read what is posted, you can feel how you want but you might what to read a post for what it is and not adlib to what you want to envision it to be.
FYI aspen will mold if you keep it too wet but myself and many others don't have a problem with it and can usually get it last close to a month with spot cleanings before a substrate change. Also shredded doesn't seem to mold as quickly as flakes.


askhole (true definition)

those people who demand that you explain, prove, or provide evidence, or cites, etc, to an idea you are presenting... but then when you DO provide information to read, watch, listen to, they REFUSE (ignore-ance?) to review the information, because they were being DISHONEST about being open to the truth, or even willing to respectfully review the information which THEY DEMEANINGLY DEMANDED of you.

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^^^Yup!^^^
Seriously, what's with people tonight?

A photo of your enclosure could help us get a feel of whether it needs more clutter or not, if you're going to keep her in the larger set up. My Bob is in a good sized bin right now, with a lot of clutter. It's definitely not 24"x24", but still larger than many snakes her size are kept in (under 150 grams).

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...3%2Fhh9Fnk.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdax

I was warned that this forum was full of misguided and ill-informed herpers, but I was hoping for a fifth opinion on what is going on. The other people were correct about this forum. Anyone who thinks that aspen is a viable choice for a substrate for a ball python is not someone I want to assist me.

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If you change your mind about the bolded bit, I'll be happy to assist too. It seems to me like you've got some preconceived notions about this forum that might be partially blocking your good advice receptors. You've already received plenty of good pointers from knowledgable folks so I'll just offer general advice, about researching and utilizing what you read. There might be 9 ways to skin a cat but if you try to use them all at the same time, you're just going to ruin the pelt. You're trying too hard to find the "best" solution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John1982

If you change your mind about the bolded bit, I'll be happy to assist too. It seems to me like you've got some preconceived notions about this forum that might be partially blocking your good advice receptors. You've already received plenty of good pointers from knowledgable folks so I'll just offer general advice, about researching and utilizing what you read. There might be 9 ways to skin a cat but if you try to use them all at the same time, you're just going to ruin the pelt. You're trying too hard to find the "best" solution.

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Very well said.

Here's an article for you: http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2014/08...te/#more-10026

You may think aspen is a poor idea, but there are snakes that are sensitive to substrate changes. Some just won't eat on paper towels no matter how hard you try. It also may seem intuitive that if you have the right hides and enough clutter the size of the enclosure shouldn't matter, and in most cases it probably doesn't, but I can tell you that I've gotten plenty of problem eaters to feed better by switching to a smaller enclosure.

There's something about your snake's environment that it doesn't like and it's up to you to figure out what that is. How do you know that the changes you've already ruled out aren't exactly what your snake needs to start feeding again? If I were you, I would try whatever it takes to get my snake feeding again, even if it meant aspen in a tiny little plastic tub.

Now granted, it doesn't have to be aspen. I think coco coir would work fine if you let it dry out for a few days. Yes, the humidity is very high at first, but it dries out like anything else. You could probably even go over it with a blow drier if you wanted. Maybe all your snake needs is that extra layer of security. If all else fails, going back to what the snake was on/in before is usually a good bet.

OP, as you can see, people are offering help. For the sake of your animal, maybe start taking some advice. What you're doing CLEARLY IS NOT WORKING. You have experienced, successful keepers on here taking the time to help, because WE CARE. And you've been lucky enough to have some well respected people in this hobby offer advice. I'm very much a noob compared to some of the people who have offered you advice. You should be thankful that they give their time and offer their suggestions based on what has PROVEN successful.

You say you're willing to make changes, yet the only thing you haven't shot down is the zombie dance thing. Yet all of the other advice has been shot down. And honestly, it starts with husbandry. Regardless of whether you zombie dance or not, if the husbandry isn't right your snake will continue to refuse food.

You came on here and asked for advice, yet felt insulted when people tried to help you. You said you took advice from 100 other people and made plenty of husbandry changes when you first started out. How is that working out for your snake? It's NOT EATING. So you NEED to make more changes and take more advice. Maybe the first 100 were not as experienced and tried to help, but you have people with YEARS of SUCCESS offering to help you now.

You came here asking for help...so let us help you and your snake.
What you're doing is NOT working, so either make some changes and do right by your animal or rehome your animal. I bet you everything I own that one of the people who offered you advice on this forum would have that snake eating and thriving fairly quickly, meanwhile you are not doing what's right for the animal.