mangrove snake?

This is strictly a curiosity thread at this point, as I just want to learn more about a species that has caught my eye. Any info will be appreciated.

So, as the title says, the mangrove snake has caught my eye. I absolutely love the black and yellow, and their size is in the range I personally enjoy keeping.

That being said, they are rear-fanged and mildly venomous from what I have read. Does anybody know if they are classified as venomous? Are they even legal in MA? Or are they classified like hognose snakes?

How does their bite compare to that of a hognose concerning the effect on humans?

I have also read varied things on them being nippy but able to calm down with time, patience and regular handling...right up to saying they are unhandleable.

I haven't added one to the wish list just yet, but darn they are beautiful and intriguing.

Anybody keeping mangroves?
What are your thoughts?
Thanks in advance...


Sent from my SM-J700T1 using Tapatalk

(Just because nobody replied yet so I will LOL) I was seriously interested in dendrophila at one point too and did some research. I guess there isn't enough studies on their venom's effect on people exactly, but overall for rear-fanged snakes, it just depends on the individual's reaction and if they have an allergic reaction. Supposedly, their venom is the most potent out of all boiga though, so should be taken more seriously- but that's anecdotal, I think, unless anyone has research articles on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

(Just because nobody replied yet so I will LOL) I was seriously interested in dendrophila at one point too and did some research. I guess there isn't enough studies on their venom's effect on people exactly, but overall for rear-fanged snakes, it just depends on the individual's reaction and if they have an allergic reaction. Supposedly, their venom is the most potent out of all boiga though, so should be taken more seriously- but that's anecdotal, I think, unless anyone has research articles on it.

---

Thanks, I've had very little luck finding much more than the basics regarding this species. But I have read that like most rear-fanged/mildly venomous it depends on the individual and the reaction varies greatly. My understanding is that they can do a bit of damage, but nothing crazy. Swelling, pain, etc... is to be expected, but to varying degrees.

Thanks for the reply :D

Any other info will be appreciated, thanks in advance

They are very pretty snakes. I have seen a few in person and the pictures do not do them justice. That said, give some real thought to having anything even slightly venomous in your house. I love gaboons, and would be capable of caring for one, however I have young children around all the time, so it's just not going to happen. Kids do stupid stuff and adults forget. Look how many threads there are about lost ball pythons. Some idiot around here lost a cobra not too long ago. Granted, a mangrove is not in the same league as a cobra or a gaboon, but if there are kids around I just wouldn't go there. There are people that can handle the risks, you just have to decide if you are one of them. Always remember it is not just you that you need to keep safe.

I agree with Jodan, which is why I never ended up going with boiga. Even if the risk is small, you don't know who is the person who will have a worse reaction to their bites. The main reason why hognose are so commonly kept is because they so rarely bite and always bluff, some even docile, not because they're "less venomous" (even though they are less venomous than boiga LOL). While dendrophila has that chance of biting as much as the next defensive species during handling, and that's why some people say they never directly handle their boiga except for on a hook with gloves and all that jazz. It's just a bigger risk people need to understand before taking it.

http://www.reptaquatics.com/node/9

Although very little is known about the venom's affect on humans, it is comparable to that of a death adder. Poorly evolved fangs and a poor delivery system make this snake's bite likely less than life threatening. Since they have a primitive means of venom delivery, they are not likely to pose a threat to a healthy adult.

^ I've read info about their venom being very potent in a few other places too

I thought I should add, for all rear-fanged species, the main reason people have mild varying reactions is related to the amount of chewing the snake managed to get in. If the snake barely got them and they got their snake to let go quickly, they most likely won't have much of a reaction. Rear-fanged have that inefficient method of delivering venom, which is why they're always randomly described as "mildly venomous", but it's not actually referring to the venom itself that's mild lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

They are very pretty snakes. I have seen a few in person and the pictures do not do them justice. That said, give some real thought to having anything even slightly venomous in your house. I love gaboons, and would be capable of caring for one, however I have young children around all the time, so it's just not going to happen. Kids do stupid stuff and adults forget. Look how many threads there are about lost ball pythons. Some idiot around here lost a cobra not too long ago. Granted, a mangrove is not in the same league as a cobra or a gaboon, but if there are kids around I just wouldn't go there. There are people that can handle the risks, you just have to decide if you are one of them. Always remember it is not just you that you need to keep safe.

---

Well put, Jodan. They're gorgeous in pictures, so I can only imagine how they look in person.
They're definitely not a species on my short list, but piqued my interest. I don't even know if they're legal in MA.
Always like to learn more where I can.

Thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

I thought I should add, for all rear-fanged species, the main reason people have mild varying reactions is related to the amount of chewing the snake managed to get in. If the snake barely got them and they got their snake to let go quickly, they most likely won't have much of a reaction. Rear-fanged have that inefficient method of delivering venom, which is why they're always randomly described as "mildly venomous", but it's not actually referring to the venom itself that's mild lol.

---

Thanks red! That's my understanding as well. Seems as though a typical defensive strike probably won't do much, but a feeding strike might be serious depending on if they chew thinking they are biting prey.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

I thought I should add, for all rear-fanged species, the main reason people have mild varying reactions is related to the amount of chewing the snake managed to get in. If the snake barely got them and they got their snake to let go quickly, they most likely won't have much of a reaction. Rear-fanged have that inefficient method of delivering venom, which is why they're always randomly described as "mildly venomous", but it's not actually referring to the venom itself that's mild lol.

---

No all rear fanged snake bites lead to mild reaction case point the boomslang which was thought to be harmless until herptologist Karl Schmidt died :O the boomlang then became listed as one of africa's most venemous. To add to the story the bite was was and the venom was delivered only by one of the fang (and the animal was a juvenile)

So it's a poor delivery system for some rear fanged but not all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

No all rear fanged snake bites lead to mild reaction case point the boomslang which was thought to be harmless until herptologist Karl Schmidt died :O the boomlang then became listed as one of africa's most venemous. To add to the story the bite was was and the venom was delivered only by one of the fang (and the animal was a juvenile)

So it's a poor delivery system for some rear fanged but not all.

---

Oh dang, that's crazy!! I didn't even know boomslangs were rear fanged either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

No all rear fanged snake bites lead to mild reaction case point the boomslang which was thought to be harmless until herptologist Karl Schmidt died :O the boomlang then became listed as one of africa's most venemous. To add to the story the bite was was and the venom was delivered only by one of the fang (and the animal was a juvenile)

So it's a poor delivery system for some rear fanged but not all.

---

As always, thank you for the education! I knew boomslangs were a venomous colubrid, but wasn't aware they are rear-fanged.
The boomslang is a beautiful animal, too. Those greens and blacks really pop. And those big ol' eyes are cool too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

(Just because nobody replied yet so I will LOL) I was seriously interested in dendrophila at one point too and did some research. I guess there isn't enough studies on their venom's effect on people exactly, but overall for rear-fanged snakes, it just depends on the individual's reaction and if they have an allergic reaction. Supposedly, their venom is the most potent out of all boiga though, so should be taken more seriously- but that's anecdotal, I think, unless anyone has research articles on it.

---

There is no way you are going to have an allergic reaction to a venom you have not been repeatedly exposed to. The myth of the spontaneous venom allergy persists..............

The various boiga species have various venoms. The delivery system of most rear fang snakes (with the exception of thelotornis and dispholidus) is ineffective. A good prolonged chew may give you some minor symptoms, but I can promise you that you will not have an allergic reaction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

No all rear fanged snake bites lead to mild reaction case point the boomslang which was thought to be harmless until herptologist Karl Schmidt died :O the boomlang then became listed as one of africa's most venemous. To add to the story the bite was was and the venom was delivered only by one of the fang (and the animal was a juvenile)

So it's a poor delivery system for some rear fanged but not all.

---

Deborah...a common misconception...but at the time Schmidt was bitten, it was well known that boomslangs were deadly. I've "known" you for years and please understand that I'm not trying to sound snarky, it's just that the "Schmidt Analogy" does a great disservice to one of the most influential people in herpetology.

When discussing opistoglyphous snakes with other people, someone eventually brings up the “Karl Schmidt” analogy.

The classic use of the analogy attempts to draw a parallel between the risk a contemporary keeper runs in getting bitten by a false water cobra, western hognose or baron’s racer to what happened to Dr. Karl P. Schmidt. With many people (not you, Deborah) the attempt is to romanticize the minimal risk that most of today’s rear fanged snake keepers face. I'd argue that the roots of the analogy started with false water cobra keepers who are desperately trying to impress people with what dashing daredevils they were.

However before we breakdown the logical fallacy of this analogy, we should probably discuss who Dr. Karl Schmidt was and exactly what happened to him.

Dr. Karl P. Schmidt was an American herpetologist – arguably one of the most influential and important of the first half of the 20th century. During his career he authored over 200 books and articles, served as the president of the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists and was the curator of amphibians and reptiles at Chicago’s Field Museum of Natural History. He was a leading expert on micurus – having described several subspecies of dumerilii, dissoleucus, elegans, hemprichii, lemniscatus, nigroncinctus, etc.

In other words, he was no dummy. He had an intimate knowledge of the animals he worked with – and was no stranger to venomous snakes.

On September 25, 1957 Dr. Schmidt was, along with Dr. Robert Inger; working with a young boomslang at the Field Museum. In his own words, he described the bite that ultimately resulted in his death.

I took it [the boomslang] from Dr. Robert Inger without thinking of any precaution, and it promptly bit me on the fleshy lateral aspect of the first joint of the left thumb. The mouth was widely opened and the bite was made with the rear fangs only, only the right fang entering to its full length of about 3 mm.

The next day at 3 PM, Dr. Schmidt was dead of respiratory paralysis. An autopsy report showed hemorrhaging in his lungs, renal pelvis and small intestine – all effects of the hemotoxic venom of the dispholidus typus that bit him.

Schmidt was noted as being a meticulous note taker and documented his reaction to the bite up until his death. These are now generally referred to as his “death notes”. These were later published by Clifford H. Pope, another famed herpetologist.

9:00 PM-12:20 AM Slept well. No blood in urine before going to sleep, but very small amount of urine. Urination at 12:20 AM mostly blood, but small in amount. Mouth had bled steadily as shown by dried blood at both angles of mouth.”


In 1957, the toxicity of dispholidus typus venom was well established. Dr. Schmidt was not dealing with an unknown factor here – for in 1940 Grasset and Schaafsma had documented the toxicity of boomslang venom.

In other words, Dr. Schmidt was well aware that he had been bitten by a highly venomous snake. Any argument regarding a lack of knowledge as to the toxicity of the boomslang is therefore totally and completely invalid.

The problem was that Dr. Schmidt had incorrectly assumed that due to the age and temperament of the snake, and the characteristics of the bite, that he was not at risk.

Pope, in his comments that accompanied Schmidt’s published notes states:

That Dr. Schmidt’s optimism was extremely unfortunate is proved by his death, but it must be admitted that there was some justification: The boomslang was very young and only one fang penetrated deeply. However, almost two decades ago careful experimentation by Grasset and Schaafsma (South African Med. Jour., 1940, 14: 236-41) showed that boomslang venom has an extraordinarily high toxicity, even higher than those of such notorious snakes as cobras, kraits, and mambas. This fact alone dictates extreme caution in handling boomslangs of all sizes, even though they be among the most mild tempered of venomous snakes.

This is where the logic of the Schmidt Analogy fails. Karl Schmidt was not dealing with an unknown snake of unknown toxicity. The venom of the boomslang and it’s effects had been documented at least 17 years prior to his death.

The Schmidt Analogy relies on the assumption that Karl Schmidt was unaware of the potential lethality of a boomslang bite.

The Schmidt Analogy assumes that in 1957, the toxicity of boomslang venom was unknown.

The Schmidt Analogy is based on a lack of knowledge – specifically a lack of knowledge concerning the details of Dr. Schmidt’s death and a lack of knowledge as to what the herpetological world knew regarding the toxicity of dispholidus typus venom.

The Schmidt Analogy is an insult to Dr. Schmidt and is an example of internet pap run amok. It is a prime exemplar of mindless parroting and how such parroting can eventually eclipse facts. Sadly, the misconception has completely eclipsed the reality of the incident.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

There is no way you are going to have an allergic reaction to a venom you have not been repeatedly exposed to. The myth of the spontaneous venom allergy persists..............

The various boiga species have various venoms. The delivery system of most rear fang snakes (with the exception of thelotornis and dispholidus) is ineffective. A good prolonged chew may give you some minor symptoms, but I can promise you that you will not have an allergic reaction.

---

Oh interesting, thanks for the info skip! I guess it persists since people keep bringing it up repeatedly, so we all keep taking it as fact.

I worked with a pair of wc boiga dendrophilia. Initially they were very defensive and quick to bite but eventually they mellowed down a bit. I did get bit a couple times, never chewed. Not added pain or reaction.
If you are interested in getting some, get captive bread. Wc specemins are often dehydrated and difficult to acclimate. Do your research and know what you are getting into. Truth be told you probably have a better chance of being killed by a neighbor's dog that a mangrove bite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by enginee837

I worked with a pair of wc boiga dendrophilia. Initially they were very defensive and quick to bite but eventually they mellowed down a bit. I did get bit a couple times, never chewed. Not added pain or reaction.
If you are interested in getting some, get captive bread. Wc specemins are often dehydrated and difficult to acclimate. Do your research and know what you are getting into. Truth be told you probably have a better chance of being killed by a neighbor's dog that a mangrove bite.

---

Thank you so much for the reply. I'm jealous you got to work with them!
Glad to hear there was no added pain or reaction.

Should the day come that I am actually considering one, I will definitely go CB. I'm not willing to bring anything wild caught into my home. Working with them, however, would be awesome!