Starting New Hatchlings: What's Going Wrong?

Hey guys!

So, I'm hoping someone out there has some advice for me. I've been breeding for four years now and every year I have trouble getting hatchlings started on food. I wind up having to assist feed 9/10 babies for sometimes months before they start eating on their own. I currently have two that are currently on the brink of death because they will not eat and the assist feeding doesn't seem to be keeping them alive. I've also run into hatchlings that will take one meal and then stop eating again permanently which seems bizarre.

I feed all of my hatchlings f/t rat pinks. I know that a lot of people will say "switch to live, or switch to mice" but neither are a good fit for us. We start on rats to help out our customers as we have had issues switching with our own snakes in the past and live is not available readily where we are. I have bred rats in the past and it did not go well when we moved into our current home. Even tried restarting a colony from scratch but they don't seem to do well at all and eventually we shut it down.

I raise our babies in CSerpents V-18 racks and use hides if they get really bad looking or are so terrified of the food that they bolt. I've tried feeding during the day, at night and leaving pinks overnight, but nothing seems to help.

I've got a bigger season coming up, with 9 tubs in the incubator already and this is just an issue I'd like to iron out. Any advice from experienced breeders is appreciated. I really don't want to spend the season assist feeding 100 baby snakes for months on end.

Thanks guys!

Note: We are waiting to assist feed after a month of twice weekly food offerings.

Stop breeding? I don't have a lot of experience but from what I've seen starting them on live mouse hoppers is really the way to go. Switching them over to frozen and then to rats can be slow but it should happen eventually. It's best to wait until they have a really strong feeding response with a given type of food. Then they should readily take another type of food without really thinking about it (or at least that's what I've noticed).


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Disclaimer, I haven't had hatchlings yet, but in my experience with snakes that come in feeding live (all but two of my kids) I haven't had a problem switching any snakes to F/T once they're feeding consistently. Getting them eating in the first place is more important than making them eat what you want.

REMINDER: Live is NOT available in my area so it is not an option. Thanks for the insight and believe me, were it a manageable request it would be something I'd be doing already as it does seem to be the standard, but as I said, live isn't a good fit for us where we are.

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"switch to live, or switch to mice" but neither are a good fit for us. We start on rats to help out our customers

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The I can't or I won't, it's not a good fit for us or it is to help customers should not be part of your vocabulary, it's about the animals not you.

A young animal that does not feed and does not do so in a timely manner will enter a viscous circle and a more time goes by without feeding the less likely the animal is to eat on it's own. Assisting is a last resort when everything else has been tried and that means EVERYTHING (live and mice)

I have been breeding for a decade, I used to start everything on live rat and no longer do, the main reason being that you get a higher success rate offering mice as their first meal versus rat. It's simple mice smell is just more enticing. Everything get switched to rats within 3 meals and some animals are switch to F/T in the same amount of time with 100% success rate in both cases.

Breeding comes with great responsibilities, that includes properly starting the animals on what works for the animals, what works for you is only secondary, if you are not willing to do that it might be time to re-assessed whether you should breed snakes or not.

You need to do what you need to do and live is available in NC and if you have to travel to find it than that's what you need to do. I have breeder friends in Charlotte and also some one hour out of charlotte who do not breed their own feeders and have no issue offering live food. They produce hundreds of BP each year so live is available.

And of course you also offer too often, you don't offer an animal that refuse to eat twice a week you do that with an animal that eats.

If live is not at all a possibility, make sure that husbandry is SPOT ON.

For little ones the most important thing is that they feel safe. Make sure they are in a VERY small container. Perhaps some dark substrate and even though its a small container, put some newspaper on top of the snakes so they can burrow under it. They need to have a very private TIGHT place to sqush themselves into. Make sure they are warm enough. Small containers are harder to control temp wise, but you want to have a good ambient temp.

If all that checks out, give them a few days to settle (if they aren't already in a tight small dark place). When you offer the food, is it REALLY warm? Such small items (rat pinks) cool rapidly. You have to also warm them up slow and safe, so that they don't get overheated and spoiled, but they DO have to be quite warm when offered.

Can you get your hand on some "live rodent shavings" ? No, not mutilated little rodents, but rather their soiled bedding ;) If you could rub the rat pink on the dirty bedding of a rodent it might entice the little ones to eat. They probably simply don't recognize the ft pinks as "food". They don't "move", they have no strong scent left on them, and they are probably cooling quickly, so no heat signature.

Feeding ft to hatchlings can certainly be done, but it requires a bit more work to get it "just right".

Live food would be better, esp. for the stubborn ones. But you already know that and you say thats not an option. If you have hatchlings near death because of this situation, perhaps you could offer them for free to someone that can provide live food and has the time and patience to try to get them to survive.

Good luck with the little ones :)

If you're in Charlotte, there must be local mouse or rat feeder breeders near you. You can look on your local fb reptile classifieds or on craigslist?

It won't be an issue to convert them to f/t later on. All the ball pythons I've received were eating live when they came to me, and they either converted right away or took a few tries. (Except for a 4 year old adult female who has been eating live her entire life, only then I failed to switch her over)

As said, what's important is they get a few meals in first, before you attempt to try to get them to eat what you want. If they resolutely won't take f/t no matter what, then you're looking at choosing between dead babies or offering live.

We did look for live when we first moved down here as we still had live mousers at the time, but no one within an hour's drive could provide them reliably in quantity and we tried several sources. My husband and I both have full time jobs and work six days a week meaning that we seriously don't have the time to make a long drive to maybe get mice or maybe not every week. We have managed thus far to produce healthy, robust animals for the past four years using f/t rats so I know it can work with enough time, patience, and effort on our parts. So it is not a question of stopping our breeding or not. They all eat eventually, in time.

I am not looking at convenience. I am looking at possibilities. If you have a source for live feeders that can provide 100 live hoppers every week locally without fail, I'd love to do business with them. When I reached out to the community and asked around for several months everyone told me that I would need to seek bigger breeders farther north or south (which makes sense if you're breeding for a living) or going to pet stores, which can possibly provide a handful of mice a week.

I am looking at options to make the f/t go easier for them. F/t mice could certainly be a possibility if, as you say, it is in every likelihood that they will switch over. We have had an extremely difficult time with mouse eaters in the past.

Will certainly ask our rat guy for some rodent shavings (wouldn't have thought of that) and I will seriously consider the f/t mice route, at least until they're eating steadily. Thank you!

You could keep a couple of female mice in a small cage and use their shavings to scent the ft rat pups.

I said female mice, because the males REALLY stink, and you don't really want babies..You just need the shavings ;)

Once they eat a few meals you can then just stop using the shavings and they should eat the ft rats no problem ;)

First, if at all possible, please do work out a source for live mice. I realize they're another time commitment, but have you considered breeding your own feeders? I know you're sick to death of hearing it, but getting access to live rodents is the most important thing you can do. That out of the way, as someone who starts the overwhelming majority of their babies on f/t, here's what I do:

* Once the babies have shed, each gets its own 6 qt shoe box with a water dish and hide (the hide is REALLY important! Seriously, don't scrimp on hides!!) on a folded paper towel. I glance over the tiny tubs daily, to make sure I don't have to clean or change the water, but leave the baby alone. I don't lift the hide, I don't do anything with the baby unless I have to.
* A full week after their shed and being left basically undisturbed, I thaw out hopper mice. I thaw at room temp, dry, for a few hours -- until the mice are fully thawed and no longer cold. I thaw in the snake room.
* In late evening, I heat the mice under a 60 watt incandescent bulb for ~6 - 10 minutes. Until they are warmed through and feel "living" to the touch.
* I quietly slide open the tubs and lay the mouse near the front using thin tongs, in view of the hide, but not right up in it. I do not zombie dance these mice. Maybe it's just me, I can never do it right, and it scares the babies.
-- Usually 50 - 60% of the babies will take on the first try for me. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
* Lights go out, I leave the babies undisturbed until the following morning. Then water is changed, any uneaten mice are removed. (I don't disturb babies whose mice are gone, I just let them digest.)
* I wait another week, even for babies who have eaten. Then I repeat the procedure.
* Babies that have not eaten after the second offering are switched to either cypress mulch or shredded aspen, depending on what I have on hand. The important thing is to make a nest of substrate beneath the hide as this helps them feel secure.
* Repeat. Any babies that have not eaten in four offerings of f/t are offered live. I prefer mouse crawlers, about when the eyes are just opening, because they provide movement, but are still harmless should I need to leave one overnight. That said, I'll use up to small adult mice to start babies without problem -- just don't leave a rodent with teeth with a baby for more than 15 minutes.

Other:
* I keep my babies at ~87 degrees, give or take a degree. I find hot babies are less likely to eat readily.
* Babies seem to like a touch more humidity than do adults and juveniles.
* My slower starters are almost always the more nervous babies.
* Switching to rats after a couple meals is honestly pretty easy. Sometimes I have a stubborn baby that needs scenting, but just thawing rats and mice together in a container is plenty.
* Braining or at least bloodying the nose of a dead hopper can help.
* The big thing is patience.

Things that have never worked for me:
Starting with f/t rats. Baby BPs really appear to prefer the smell of mice for tripping that "eat" program the first time.
Offering multiple meals a week to non-feeders. This just scares them, which makes things worse, and wastes rodents.

That's really all I can think of off the top of my head. Again, please do try to work out a source for live mice. Other things are doable, certainly, but live mice are best.

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Originally Posted by zina10

You could keep a couple of female mice in a small cage and use their shavings to scent the ft rat pups.

I said female mice, because the males REALLY stink, and you don't really want babies..You just need the shavings ;)

Once they eat a few meals you can then just stop using the shavings and they should eat the ft rats no problem ;)

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I've found that the male mouse stink works better for getting my bp to eat rats, if the rat is scented with a female mouse I might as well throw the rat away. Male mouse scenting though and boom rat gets eaten.

You can thaw rat fuzzies with a mouse in the bag with them. This sometimes helps. Most of mine do start on FT however there always seems to be a holdout that needs live to kick the instincts into gear.

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Originally Posted by hotelvoodoo

REMINDER: Live is NOT available in my area so it is not an option. Thanks for the insight and believe me, were it a manageable request it would be something I'd be doing already as it does seem to be the standard, but as I said, live isn't a good fit for us where we are.

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I find it hard to believe that there is not live feeders near you. So I took 11 seconds and found a breeder that not only has a ton of live but will also cull and freeze upon request.

https://charlotte.craigslist.org/pet/6185874391.html

I am in agreement with Deborah that its about the animals so if feeding live doesn't agree with you than maybe breeding isn't the best option, so this breeder is 15 miles away and seems reasonable to accommodate all..

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

You can thaw rat fuzzies with a mouse in the bag with them. This sometimes helps. Most of mine do start on FT however there always seems to be a holdout that needs live to kick the instincts into gear.

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Do you start on FT rats or mice?


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Originally Posted by BPGator

Do you start on FT rats or mice?


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Rats when I can get them at the right size, mice when I cannot, but Deborah is correct starting them on live mice is easier and has a much larger first time success rate. This year I am prepared and have more than enough FT rats of the correct size. I do this because I have a fear, maybe unfounded, that I am going to have issues switching them to FT rats. I like them to leave my care eating FT rat pups whenever possible.

I use paper towels and a small handful of slightly damp sphagnum moss in my 6qt hatchling tubs. It seems to make them feel more secure, and start eating quicker. I remove the moss after several successful feedings, and they're usually fine after that. They start with live hoppers, and after they feed a few times without the moss, I try to switch them to frozen hoppers.

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Many hatchlings are too timid to leave the hiding box to find the water bowl, and dehydration can make them refuse food. Putting one in a small box with a quarter inch of water in the bottom every few days and leaving it alone for half an hour or so can prevent dehydration.

Temperatures either too high or too low will put any snake off food.

Good luck.

UPDATE: Spent this past season using hopper mice on difficult first time feeders. We went with f/t to better ease the transition the rats in the long haul and it's worked like a a champ! We have been feeding the mice for a couple of weeks and then scenting rat pinks to switch them over and generally, within a feeding or two, they have switched right over. I guess at that small a size, the feeding response is strong enough that they don't have as much trouble switching prey.

Thanks for all of the advice guys! PROBLEM SOLVED.

Glad to hear you got it figured out. My first clutch I learned the same lesson, get them feeding on mice and then they quickly switch to rats. I had no takers on rats and 100% success as soon as I switched to mice. Then it only took 3-5 feedings to get them all switched to rats. I’ll never do it any other way now.