Push face, audible exhalation, spit on cage doors

So Phyllis my SD retic has been pushing really hard the last month or so. Minor swelling on either or both side of her tip lip, little bits of saliva on the area of the cage door that she pushes at. Her breathing is also a bit noisier on the exhale for about the last month-ish too. Not rattly or crackly, no bubbles, no elevated head breathing, but does occasionally have a fairly forceful "sneeze" as a real hard exhale. She does chill out significantly with a meal in her belly but a couple of times after eating her lips will swell up more than earlier that day. Inside of her mouth looks clean, good color, no stringy mucous that I can see. Temps are 88-90* warm side, 80-81* cool side, 75-80% humidity in a T8. Heated with pro heat RHP.
Does this sound like the beginning of an RI? Maybe a broken tooth? Abscess? Or maybe the stretching of her jaws to eat a large rat irritates swelling from previous pushing? She's still very active, never turns down a meal, very curious when I have her out and about. Just looking for some input from other retic keepers on here before I stress her out taking her to a vet, which I'm not overly confident that vets in my area will be too familiar with dealing with retics. Thanks y'all!
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I'm thinking the pushing caused the swelling. Are the exhales coming when she pushes, or just during standard handling?

When my boa pushes he does get spit/drool on the cage now and then, so does the coastal carpet.

She looks great and I can't see any reason an R/I would start up unless she is extremely stressed out. Your husbandry is very good and I don't see any mold, overly wet and prolonged cool conditions coming out of your camp, you always take great care .

I think you've looked at everything (mouth condition, mucus checks) critical and scratched it off the list.

If she is shedding well, has a shine to her skin and moves properly, I'd doubt anything is wrong.

Does her enclosure have any height to it? I know each snake is different, but Wallace has never pushed, that's not to say he won't because my boa will occasionally, and the carpet as well.

I also think you are on to something with the post feeding swell. It probably irritates the mouth after a lot of pushing.

Do you use a night drop? I've read a few articles that some retics enjoy a cooler area than some would expect. The option to have a 76-79 degree are may help. I'm just throwing it out there. My snakes all settle a lot when I drop temps. Some areas of the country are experiencing very hot temps, its possible she is picking up on those cues, but I really don't know.

Certainly keep and eye on things though.

Thanks for the reply Gio!
I've only noticed the heavy exhale when she's out for general handling so it could be that she's just excited and breathing heavier when I have her out. Enclosure is very short, 12" high, so that is probably influencing her pushing a lot. T25 should be ready soon but I'll probably wait to set it up until my big move is over. Don't want to damage a 6' $500 cage in the relocation.
I used the night drop feature when I first set up the T8s but haven't used it in a while. I'll try that out tonight and monitor the results.
Sheds in one piece, has beautiful color, movement is great. I think I'm just overly paranoid but I'd rather be that way and have a healthy animal than be too relaxed and have a sick snakes. I'll keep an eye on things and keep y'all posted.


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Females typically push when they're hungry, and the SD's and crosses I have often cross the line from "foody" to "stupidly foody" - one male even strikes the RHP. :rolleyes: Getting him out for exercise often, especially the 3-4 days before his next feeding day, helps a lot.

The occasional exhale seems to be common, I've heard it from most of mine. The first few times it was rather disconcerting as it's a loud, forceful expelling of air. Maybe there is a particular reason for it in the wild? I've just noted that my retics are noisier and more expressive than my other snakes.

I think it is all covered.

By the way when handling, especially if my skin is a touch moist and sticky, all of my snakes will exhale loudly. Almost like a powerlifter when completing the heavy part of a lift. The snakes stick to me a bit and when they contract to move they exhale. My carpet is like a bellows. She huffs and breaths a lot.

Wallace has been doing this a bit more as he grows, and from day one, every now and then I hear a click in his nose. Its almost like a valve or something that keeps water from going in his airway.

A buddy of mine who is very well versed in retics said they often make that sound.

I think being a pure SD and considering the time of year, she is probably feeling, biologically like her island is loading up with birds and its time to eat. Basically her seasonal clock is causing her increased activity. Its documented that the smaller retics don't eat as much year round because food isn't plentiful during all seasons, which is why bcr229 mentioned SD/SD crosses getting nuts.

You should, IMO see some relief with the larger cage. I really recommend designing some perches. A shelf isn't quite the same and doesn't offer the "challenges" a perch setup would.

SD models are probably even more semi arboreal than the other species. Reptile Experts mentions their diet coincides with avian migrations so it would stand to reason climbing would play in.

I agree, get her out and let her go on a wild, exploring adventure and maybe she'll wear herself out a bit.

Even in the summer I let my cage temps drop at night, though not like winter. Eternally, warm conditions will obviously increase metabolism and in turn get them ready to eat and grow sooner.

I think she's looking great, and is just a bit bonkers right now, maybe even a step closer to maturity.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Females typically push when they're hungry, and the SD's and crosses I have often cross the line from "foody" to "stupidly foody" - one male even strikes the RHP. :rolleyes: Getting him out for exercise often, especially the 3-4 days before his next feeding day, helps a lot.

The occasional exhale seems to be common, I've heard it from most of mine. The first few times it was rather disconcerting as it's a loud, forceful expelling of air. Maybe there is a particular reason for it in the wild? I've just noted that my retics are noisier and more expressive than my other snakes.

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Thank you BCR! I was hoping you'd see this thread and chime in. All of my previous snakes have been balls and corn snakes so the last year and a half of retics has been very much a learning experience. Glad to know that your SDs are also more vocal and expressive than other snakes. I had a strong feeling that was what I had been dealing with but couldn't help being concerned the first handful of times she let out a big blast of air! Thanks so much for the reply! And yes, Phyllis is VERY food driven. I think I'll either bump up her prey size or offer every 7-8 days vs 10-12. A large rat is only about 10% her body weight at this point. She's about 2700 grams and ~7', 16 months old.


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Originally Posted by Gio

I think it is all covered.

By the way when handling, especially if my skin is a touch moist and sticky, all of my snakes will exhale loudly. Almost like a powerlifter when completing the heavy part of a lift. The snakes stick to me a bit and when they contract to move they exhale. My carpet is like a bellows. She huffs and breaths a lot.

Wallace has been doing this a bit more as he grows, and from day one, every now and then I hear a click in his nose. Its almost like a valve or something that keeps water from going in his airway.

A buddy of mine who is very well versed in retics said they often make that sound.

I think being a pure SD and considering the time of year, she is probably feeling, biologically like her island is loading up with birds and its time to eat. Basically her seasonal clock is causing her increased activity. Its documented that the smaller retics don't eat as much year round because food isn't plentiful during all seasons, which is why bcr229 mentioned SD/SD crosses getting nuts.

You should, IMO see some relief with the larger cage. I really recommend designing some perches. A shelf isn't quite the same and doesn't offer the "challenges" a perch setup would.

SD models are probably even more semi arboreal than the other species. Reptile Experts mentions their diet coincides with avian migrations so it would stand to reason climbing would play in.

I agree, get her out and let her go on a wild, exploring adventure and maybe she'll wear herself out a bit.

Even in the summer I let my cage temps drop at night, though not like winter. Eternally, warm conditions will obviously increase metabolism and in turn get them ready to eat and grow sooner.

I think she's looking great, and is just a bit bonkers right now, maybe even a step closer to maturity.

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Yep! Seasonal change was something I had been considering as a cause as well. Her being F1 captive bred I'm sure her wild side of her brain says "birds are supposed to be everywhere now and I'm supposed to start binging on them!"
I'm planning for probably at least one big perch the length of her T25 about halfway or higher up and a sky hide as well in addition to her shelf she'll have. Gonna keep it otherwise fairly minimal for sake of easy cleaning and accessibility.
Thanks for the quick replies folks!


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Caesar used to do the exhale loudly when out too. He seems to have kind of quit doing it though.

The saliva on the doors and loud breathing were the things Rosey did but she also had a lump developing on her nose. I took her to the vet and it turned out she had a sinus infection. The vet guesses it was probably from pushing as she pushed a lot in her old Pro-Line cage(none of my snakes liked that cage but thats a different story lol).

I would personally just watch her and feed her a little on the heavy side so if the start of something is going on, you can maybe stem it before it gets bad by keeping her sedated with food haha.

Caesar has pretty much quit pushing but i also feed him a jumbo rat every 7-10 days which seems to be his happy place for food. Everyone else though is starting to get worked up because of summer. Rosey is tearing stuff apart as well as Vic, Dottie and even Gina is out nightly now doing the windshield wipe dance and climbing all over her shelf.

I keep my cages on an eternal summer and all my snakes still kind of slow down in the winter. Like now, their temps and everything are the same but they are all busy bodies. I think it has more to do with the outside pressures and stuff.

And like others said, get her out to burn off the energy.

Oh and to touch on the food part, she might need a bump up like you said. Everything all these people say i take with a grain of salt and a guideline. Your snake will be the only one who really can give you the right or wrong answer. When Caesar was going crazy, a lot of the people on the retic board told me i needed to feed him more. They said just because he is a super dwarf doesnt mean he wont eat. He is a retic still after all and while you can restrict the food all you want to have a small snake, some will take to it and some wont. Since then i just fed Caesar what looked good in him and kept him quiet and on the time frame that worked for him. All this within reason of course and it's been night an day with him. He is a very well mannered boy now and i can pet his head and do whatever. Just some food for thought.

Oh and not trying to slam anyones knowledge or advice. Just saying the best answers will come from the patient itself, your snake :)

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Caesar used to do the exhale loudly when out too. He seems to have kind of quit doing it though.

The saliva on the doors and loud breathing were the things Rosey did but she also had a lump developing on her nose. I took her to the vet and it turned out she had a sinus infection. The vet guesses it was probably from pushing as she pushed a lot in her old Pro-Line cage(none of my snakes liked that cage but thats a different story lol).

I would personally just watch her and feed her a little on the heavy side so if the start of something is going on, you can maybe stem it before it gets bad by keeping her sedated with food haha.

Caesar has pretty much quit pushing but i also feed him a jumbo rat every 7-10 days which seems to be his happy place for food. Everyone else though is starting to get worked up because of summer. Rosey is tearing stuff apart as well as Vic, Dottie and even Gina is out nightly now doing the windshield wipe dance and climbing all over her shelf.

I keep my cages on an eternal summer and all my snakes still kind of slow down in the winter. Like now, their temps and everything are the same but they are all busy bodies. I think it has more to do with the outside pressures and stuff.

And like others said, get her out to burn off the energy.

Oh and to touch on the food part, she might need a bump up like you said. Everything all these people say i take with a grain of salt and a guideline. Your snake will be the only one who really can give you the right or wrong answer. When Caesar was going crazy, a lot of the people on the retic board told me i needed to feed him more. They said just because he is a super dwarf doesnt mean he wont eat. He is a retic still after all and while you can restrict the food all you want to have a small snake, some will take to it and some wont. Since then i just fed Caesar what looked good in him and kept him quiet and on the time frame that worked for him. All this within reason of course and it's been night an day with him. He is a very well mannered boy now and i can pet his head and do whatever. Just some food for thought.

Oh and not trying to slam anyones knowledge or advice. Just saying the best answers will come from the patient itself, your snake :)

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Yeah, I think it's the seasonal change telling her brain to hunt like the world is going to end lol! She didn't do that last year but she was also a fifth the size she is now at most and fit in a divided T8 then. Gonna keep her well fed, maybe even bump up to jumbo rats... just hoping to keep her on a rat diet vs rabbits as an adult but like you said, gotta follow what the snake says is the answer for it.
I've probably been slightly underfeeding her, and she's responding with pushing tantrums. She did the same thing the last time I tried to scale her back on food. Going to go back to weekly feeding with large or jumbo rats and see how she acts. I usually see pushing at day 5/6 after she takes a dump and then destroys everything in the cage. Don't want her obese but don't want her to have a busted up face either.
Also, got the new wire shelves in that are the same footprint as her T25... that thing is going to be freaking massive! Hahahah!

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I dont think feeding her a jumbo a week is going to make her obese. I mean it might be a bit different for a super dwarf but a lot of the people i see on the retic forums seem to feed weekly. I mean i guess if you are worried, you can always just feed on the smaller side but more often. That way she isnt sitting long with a empty stomach but also isnt stuffed like a turkey 24/7.

And same here, Caesar usually starts wandering around and getting really alert around the 5th day. Since i moved him up to jumbo rats weekly, like i said, he has been really laid back and doesnt push anymore. He's in shed right now so he's extra quiet except for when he shoves his warm hide out of the way so he could sit on the flexwatt uncovered haha. He seems to not even care for his hides too much anymore right now.

As for size, while i agree, feeding will play into the size, i think genetics has a lot to do with it too. I mean look at Wallace. Gio fed him a small rat every 14 days and he's 5.5' or so. I fed Caesar large and jumbo rats and he's about 6.5'. Thats a huge difference in food intake and Caesar being i think almost double the mainland blood and half the dwarf blood of Wallace and he is only about 1' longer. Now if you fed Phyllis her max every few days, she might get big but i still think the genetics will top them out. I mean no matter how much you fed Phyllis, she would never become a 20' snake. Her genetics just arent programmed for it. At least thats what i think. And i feed Caesar weekly most of the time. I mean sometimes he's goes longer if he is quiet. Like now he is in shed and hasnt eaten in probably close to 1.5 weeks and he is still quiet. I mostly just feed when he gets active and starts darting at any movement as that seems to be his signs when he gets hungry.

Thanks for the detailed replies Sauzo. I'll probably try large rats weekly or graduate to jumbos if she still gets antsy around the 5th day. Also as Gio said, hopefully once she's in a 6' cage she'll calm down with more climbing options to explore.
Didn't even really think about the differences between Wallace and Caesars feeding schedule with a pretty similar growth rate. For that matter, I've fed Phyllis maybe a bit lighter than Caesar and she's bigger by 6" or so with no mainland or dwarf blood. I agree, she's never going to be a true "giant" no matter how hard she's fed. Might get 9' but even that would be big considering she's been hovering around 7' for a while without too much additional length recently. Getting a bit heavier though which would explain her wanting more food and pushing more. She ate two days ago and has been pretty quiet but still gets very interested in any movement near the cage when I'm in the room. Her right lip swelling has gone down even since I posted this morning. I'll probably take your advice and keep her sedated with food and keep an eye on her to see how her face does.


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Yeah. Just weird her lip swells up after she eats.

She might calm down some with a bigger cage but Gina for example is only 2' and she's in a 4' cage and when she is hungry, she is all over that cage and spends probably 60% of the time windshield wiping the glass doors. Maybe the snakes have learned the glass doors is where food comes from and they pace it or camp it hoping the glass door gods grant them dinner haha.

Not sure if it's good advice or not but people have told me if your retic is pushing or destroying the cage and its a female, it's either hungry or the husbandry is off. If it's a male, he's either hungry, husbandry is off, or he wants some sweet luvin lol.

Anyways, good luck on the lip issue and in that first pic, it does look pretty bad although surf those retic forums and you will see WAY worse. i saw one from a guy with a white albino male where it looked like the snake had a big cottonball in its mouth. That snake did some serious pushing and the owner was a moron and didnt take care of it.

Would that first pic be vet worthy swelling in your opinion? Or in anyone else's opinion for that matter? I've been told by a few people with retic experience that the swelling should go down in time and just to keep an eye on her. I'm just a worrier


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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Would that first pic be vet worthy swelling in your opinion? Or in anyone else's opinion for that matter? I've been told by a few people with retic experience that the swelling should go down in time and just to keep an eye on her. I'm just a worrier


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I think its commonplace for a lot of retics to have banged up faces. Maybe not good, but a common occurrence for a lot of them to exhibit some goofy mouths.

Hey, just FYI, I gave Wallace a bath tonight to get I'm to Pee and he was breathing hard the rest of the night. I don't think he particularly liked his bath experience. I saw him loading up toward me for a strike so I used a shampoo bottle to break his aggression, I got two nice, wide mouthed threat displays after that.

He was making heavy breathing sounds with a slight whistle after being wet. I think every snake I've put in the tub has made those same sounds.

I doubt your husbandry is off, but I would like to see how she behaves with a 76-77 degree night drop from 22:00 Hrs to maybe 08:30 the next morning.

Personally, I can't see how anything is off as you've had such a wonderful first year with her.

Also, after a bad strike, Ive had both the royal python and the boa here, have screwed up faces for a couple of days. The royal was the first snake here when we got it for our son. She had me concerned because her lip was folded in after a weird strike. It went away in 2 days.

I think the pushing coupled with possibly, a not ideal strike could account for the swelling.

Keep and eye on it, but I'll bet a good meal and a new cage will help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Would that first pic be vet worthy swelling in your opinion? Or in anyone else's opinion for that matter? I've been told by a few people with retic experience that the swelling should go down in time and just to keep an eye on her. I'm just a worrier Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Nah not vet worthy. Doesn't look great but I've seen worse. Just keep her fed and in a food coma to let it heal.

I would watch more for that swelling when she eats. That almost sounds like an infected tooth that when she eats food and it gets shifted, it gets inflamed or something.

In the meantime, I would find a good vet so you have one if you do need it.

I too am like you and a worrier. When Caesar got his scrapes, I was all over the retic boards asking and everyone said it's nothing and he would shed it. They did say though that I was underfeeding him as a medium rat for a 5' snake was not near enough. The one guy said, he can easily eat large rats or even jumbos. Said pushing was his way of wanting more food since he was too young to be looking for a girlfriend. A lot of other guys agreed with him and said, he knows his retics. He said, its not a boa, it's a retic be it SD or manlaind, it's still a retic and will eat like a retic. Not a large rat once a month boa.

Anyways, once I fed Caesar larges, he mellowed out and once he went up to jumbos, he quit pushing except maybe once or twice a day before dinner. And even those pushes are more just looking in the gap to see whats up.

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Originally Posted by Gio

I think its commonplace for a lot of retics to have banged up faces. Maybe not good, but a common occurrence for a lot of them to exhibit some goofy mouths.

Hey, just FYI, I gave Wallace a bath tonight to get I'm to Pee and he was breathing hard the rest of the night. I don't think he particularly liked his bath experience. I saw him loading up toward me for a strike so I used a shampoo bottle to break his aggression, I got two nice, wide mouthed threat displays after that.

He was making heavy breathing sounds with a slight whistle after being wet. I think every snake I've put in the tub has made those same sounds.

I doubt your husbandry is off, but I would like to see how she behaves with a 76-77 degree night drop from 22:00 Hrs to maybe 08:30 the next morning.

Personally, I can't see how anything is off as you've had such a wonderful first year with her.

Also, after a bad strike, Ive had both the royal python and the boa here, have screwed up faces for a couple of days. The royal was the first snake here when we got it for our son. She had me concerned because her lip was folded in after a weird strike. It went away in 2 days.

I think the pushing coupled with possibly, a not ideal strike could account for the swelling.

Keep and eye on it, but I'll bet a good meal and a new cage will help.

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Haha, I haven't given Caesar a bath yet. I have sprayed him with a water bottle though and he seems to not mind it.

Caesar did those wide open mouth threats when he was a baby at his hook. I quit using that and since then he has been mellow.

He could drop the temp a little but honestly I think its food pushing. He's got a female which are food driven more than males from what I've been told. Worth a shot though but Caesar for example is kept about 80-82F on his cool side and 92F on the hot spot. I don't have changing ambient temps since I just use flexwatt so basically the whole cage ambient is 80-82F or whatever the cool side temp is.

And I agree, JM is probably fine on husbandry.

Guess I've been lucky in that none of my snakes have gotten a messed up face from food. Rosey has even freakin grabbed the feeding tongs a few times and wrapped them up with her rat and had the tongs in her mouth. I use the BBQ tongs for her. Then when she lets go and finally picks the rat up, I quicky slide the tongs out haha. As for Dottie, she doesn't eat enough to get anything screwed up lol. It's closing in on 4.5 months since shes eaten.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Nah not vet worthy. Doesn't look great but I've seen worse. Just keep her fed and in a food coma to let it heal.

I would watch more for that swelling when she eats. That almost sounds like an infected tooth that when she eats food and it gets shifted, it gets inflamed or something.

In the meantime, I would find a good vet so you have one if you do need it.

I too am like you and a worrier. When Caesar got his scrapes, I was all over the retic boards asking and everyone said it's nothing and he would shed it. They did say though that I was underfeeding him as a medium rat for a 5' snake was not near enough. The one guy said, he can easily eat large rats or even jumbos. Said pushing was his way of wanting more food since he was too young to be looking for a girlfriend. A lot of other guys agreed with him and said, he knows his retics. He said, its not a boa, it's a retic be it SD or manlaind, it's still a retic and will eat like a retic. Not a large rat once a month boa.

Anyways, once I fed Caesar larges, he mellowed out and once he went up to jumbos, he quit pushing except maybe once or twice a day before dinner. And even those pushes are more just looking in the gap to see whats up.

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I do have a vet locally that friends have used and recommended that I'm ready to use at any time. The real issue is that I'm moving 8.5 hours away to Mississippi in 5 weeks for a new teaching job at Mississippi State University. From what I've been able to find, the nearest vet that deals more heavily with exotics is about 3 hours from the town I'm moving to, Starkville. If anyone from Mississippi comes across this thread and knows of a decent exotics vet near Starkville please let me know!


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Ugh that sucks. My vet is about an hour away.

Forgot to update here. Phyllis took a large rat on 6/19, went into shed cycle a few days later, and shed on 6/29 for a total of 10 days quiet time with zero pushing. After shed, her face looks soooo much better and gave her her first 400gram jumbo rat that same day. 3 days later still no pushing, a couple huge pisses first all liquid and second with some urates while I had her out for exercise. Still some girthy sausage butt to be worked out over the next few days lol. Thank you everyone for the replies and suggestions. I feel like seasonal changes had just prompted her to be ridiculously food driven coupled with her reaching a more mature size. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d71d884fe9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d3394b406c.jpg
Huge food lump that was almost entirely gone after two days. Crazy fast metabolism


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I would continue to get her out for exercise if that involves outside time in the yard. She may just "go" for you out there, much easier to deal with than cleaning the enclosure. Also I found with mine that giving them more exercise and outside time means that they're more likely to relax when in their homes. I think we forget that these are active snakes and they need more exercise time each day than something like a ball python or Dumerils boa.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Forgot to update here. Phyllis took a large rat on 6/19, went into shed cycle a few days later, and shed on 6/29 for a total of 10 days quiet time with zero pushing. After shed, her face looks soooo much better and gave her her first 400gram jumbo rat that same day. 3 days later still no pushing, a couple huge pisses first all liquid and second with some urates while I had her out for exercise. Still some girthy sausage butt to be worked out over the next few days lol. Thank you everyone for the replies and suggestions. I feel like seasonal changes had just prompted her to be ridiculously food driven coupled with her reaching a more mature size. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d71d884fe9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d3394b406c.jpg
Huge food lump that was almost entirely gone after two days. Crazy fast metabolism


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Reminds me of Gene, he always lays on top if his hide.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I would continue to get her out for exercise if that involves outside time in the yard. She may just "go" for you out there, much easier to deal with than cleaning the enclosure. Also I found with mine that giving them more exercise and outside time means that they're more likely to relax when in their homes. I think we forget that these are active snakes and they need more exercise time each day than something like a ball python or Dumerils boa.

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Yep! I try to get her out for exercise every other day or so and let her wander in the yard when I can/weather permitting or climb the stairs in the apt. Usually if I get her out two and three days after eating she does most of her liquid/urate bathroom business outside of her enclosure which is nice, provided I'm outside or next to the bathroom when I see that telltale swell right at her vent before she goes.


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Originally Posted by Stearns84

Reminds me of Gene, he always lays on top if his hide.

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That's funny because Phyllis almost never does this anymore. She used to when she was smaller but no so much recently


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