Tub People vs Enclosure People

Hey everyone. Just wanted to discuss a topic that is starting to "grind my gears" a little.

As we are all aware, some people choose enclosures and some people choose tubs for their ball pythons. I feel it's a personal choice and as long as you can meet the snakes needs without causing undo stress.

Having said that, there are a few Facebook groups I'm on where tub users (mostly people in their early 20s) are kind of aggressively pushing their own ideas on ball python owners.

I just saw a young lady who set her ball python up in a 20 gallon glass tank. She had hides, clutter, foliage, proper temps, thermostat, thermometers, hydrometers and 3 sides covered.

You would've thought she murdered the pope. This poor girl is basically throwing everything away and moving to a tub because in her words she didn't want to do anything wrong again. I really feel for her. She has one snake. That's a lot of wasted money and lets face it. Some people enjoy creating and aesthetically pleasing environment for their ball pythons. If done properly, your snake can thrive in an enclosure.

I get it. Sometimes you have a shy snake or one thats a picky eater and you have to accommodate accordingly.

What are your thoughts?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ed2ac1bb4c.jpg

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

I believe the general consensus of the forum is that proper conditions just need to be met. Temperature, humidity, hiding places. Doesn't matter if it's a tub or a tank.

I remember that at one point, even here, tanks were considered poor conditions as it makes it fairly hard to maintain the husbandry. But it got better.

I've always held that a BP can be kept safely in a tank, as long as the proper conditions were met, and I've given people advice on how to turn a tank into a decent enclosure, the ins and outs of maintaining humidity, the types of bedding and heating, etc. My first BP was kept in a tank for an extremely long time with only a few bad sheds in the winter. At the time I didn't realize I could handle that with a sheet of aluminum foil, now we know.

The sentiment that a tank is somehow inferior is false, it's just a matter of how much preparation you need for the tank to handle a BP. If things can be kept where they need to be, you're fine.

Heck, you can get away with CHEs, light bulbs, etc. As long as the right temperatures are being generated for the snake and your humidity is where it needs to be. Obviously you also need secure locations for it to hide.

I don't keep BPs anymore but I've used tubs, tanks, and pvc enclosures without issues for years with multiple species of snakes. As long as the animal has a proper temperature gradient, sufficient humidity, hides, and access to fresh food and water it can thrive in any of those enclosures.

Thanks for your input Oxylepy. I agree 100%. This forum seems to have a lot less people with egos and a lot more people who want to share information that help the snake and the owner achieve happiness.

Just saw another guy post a picture of his 36" tank for an adult ball python and the replies were all the same "too big".

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Personally, I use both tubs and display caging and have no problems with either. I do sometimes feel that there is an assumption by 'experienced' keepers that a newbie is just making it hard on themselves with display settings (ie time and effort to keep clean, effort to make sure there are appropriate temps, esp with glass enclosures, etc). For me, the rub is that you just need housing that makes the animal feel 'secure' so it exhibits 'normal' behaviors, yeah? But if it's a newer person, who hasn't learned basic behaviors, how do they know the difference between 'comfortably cruising and exploring' and 'desperately seeking a way out'. It's a bit of a bell curve, which leads to the assumption that it would just be 'easier' all around to stick em in a rack. Especially if there is an expectation that more than one animal will be following the first. I have a friend who originally got a BP for her kids (who are now in college). The BP still lives in a 60g tank, nicely displayed and gets brought out all the time to explore. Sweetest, healthiest snake imaginable. And much enjoyed as a 'display' animal. Would it be the pride of the family in a tub? probably not. I'm not advocating either way, I just think there are always multiple factors to take in and the best thing more 'experienced' keepers can do is offer education as the the whys and wherefors, rather than dictate.

Just my .02

Cheers,
Kat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I don't keep BPs anymore but I've used tubs, tanks, and pvc enclosures without issues for years with multiple species of snakes. As long as the animal has a proper temperature gradient, sufficient humidity, hides, and access to fresh food and water it can thrive in any of those enclosures.

---

Right on El-Ziggy! By the way, you have some very impressive looking carpets.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Personally, I use both tubs and display caging and have no problems with either. I do sometimes feel that there is an assumption by 'experienced' keepers that a newbie is just making it hard on themselves with display settings (ie time and effort to keep clean, effort to make sure there are appropriate temps, esp with glass enclosures, etc). For me, the rub is that you just need housing that makes the animal feel 'secure' so it exhibits 'normal' behaviors, yeah? But if it's a newer person, who hasn't learned basic behaviors, how do they know the difference between 'comfortably cruising and exploring' and 'desperately seeking a way out'. It's a bit of a bell curve, which leads to the assumption that it would just be 'easier' all around to stick em in a rack. Especially if there is an expectation that more than one animal will be following the first. I have a friend who originally got a BP for her kids (who are now in college). The BP still lives in a 60g tank, nicely displayed and gets brought out all the time to explore. Sweetest, healthiest snake imaginable. And much enjoyed as a 'display' animal. Would it be the pride of the family in a tub? probably not. I'm not advocating either way, I just think there are always multiple factors to take in and the best thing more 'experienced' keepers can do is offer education as the the whys and wherefors, rather than dictate.

Just my .02

Cheers,
Kat

---

"offer education as the the whys and wherefors, rather than dictate."

Nailed it!!!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

It's funny because with younger people I usually see the exact opposite. Tubs are EVIL, and cruel, and don't provide snake enough enrichment, and anyone who uses them is a money grubbing breeder who's in it only for the profit and doesn't care about their animals. No really, I have seen this exact argument come up whenever someone posted pics of their racks.

My personal feeling is, you can make a tub in a rack an enriched environment if you do it right, you can make a glass terrarium maintain the proper heat and humidity parameters if you do it right, and you can make a PVC enclosure into a beautiful cross of both if you do it right. The defining factors are the amount of time someone spends researching their animal's needs, and then the effort they go through to implement various fixes and workarounds to get there. There is no perfect enclosure. Anybody can goof it up. The most important thing is that you have a healthy, thriving animal. All else is secondary to that.

With enough experience and skill you could probably use a milk crate as a starting point. Silly example but I am sure you guys understand my point. I am always going to push people, especially new ones to tubs for a couple reasons. The first being tubs are easier. 95% of the husbandry problems on here are tank related. There are very few skills required to set up a tub. Tubs are cheap. When you get beyond a couple animals tubs and racks are the only way to go.

My assumption has always been if someone has a couple brain cells, does their homework and has a few skills they can make a tank work. If they are smart enough to figure that out they are also smart enough to realize why I push tubs and don't argue the issue. Many people just do not have the "skills", at least in the short term, to make a tank work. In the meantime the animal suffers and the board is flooded with bad shed threads.

All of my animals are in tubs and racks. I have far too many to play any other game. I am however working on a design, to create the most accurate natural environment I can that will break almost all the rules I quote. It will be a very large display enclosure. It will have plants and dirt. It will have lights, and God forbid it will host multiple animals. Why am I going to do it? Because I want to create and observe as close to a natural breeding cycle as I can. I wouldn't in a million years recommend this type of setup for the average pet owner.

As a final note.. I try real hard to not crucify anyone. If you sound like you know what you are doing, I let it go. If I do feel the need to give advice and it is ignored then all bets are off.

Ok. What's going on here? I've always kept my snakes in bowls and bags. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ringorock

Ok. What's going on here? I've always kept my snakes in bowls and bags. :rolleyes:

---

LOL. When I was a kid, I kept corns in baskets. I'm not kidding either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kevall1

I just saw a young lady who set her ball python up in a 20 gallon glass tank. She had hides, clutter, foliage, proper temps, thermostat, thermometers, hydrometers and 3 sides covered.

You would've thought she murdered the pope. This poor girl is basically throwing everything away and moving to a tub because in her words she didn't want to do anything wrong again. I really feel for her. She has one snake. That's a lot of wasted money and lets face it. Some people enjoy creating and aesthetically pleasing environment for their ball pythons. If done properly, your snake can thrive in an enclosure.

---

Snakes. Because people are jerks.

I personally have all glass now, but would like to switch to PVC display enclosures.

To me, glass works just fine if you are willing to put in the due diligence to know what to do to properly care for your animal. If you're ok with the additional time, effort and potential headaches of glass and want to display your animals I say go for it. As long as the animal is properly cared for I don't see any reason to knock anybody's personal preference of enclosure. Typically, once your husbandry is dialed in, it's just routine maintenance from there and checking things daily to make sure everything is running properly. Then making some seasonal adjustments. Sure, humidity is a little tougher to maintain, especially during the dry, winter months. But if you're willing to take the time and make the appropriate adjustments, what's wrong with that?

That being said, I don't think I'll ever get rid of display enclosures. If the day comes that I have more snakes than time allows for me to properly maintain the glass, I may consider the more time efficient rack setup, but would still keep the majority in display enclosures. I'll cross that bridge then, but will probably limit my collection to what I can maintain in display enclosures.

I like the look of display enclosures and enjoy watching my snakes do what snakes do, even if that means stay in their hides the vast majority of the time.

In my opinion, if you're not capable of making glass work, you're probably going to have husbandry issues regardless of enclosure. It just takes a little homework and a little effort.

Either way, regardless of your choice of enclosure, if your animals are healthy and well taken care of I say you do you. :gj:

I'm curious about the photo attached to the original post - I would assume the corn is in that kritter keeper as it's enclosure is being cleaned but is someone keeping it in there as it's 'tub'? eek!

As others, I have successfully kept a variety of species in both glass enclosures, plastic enclosures and tubs.

Its just a photo that was on Google

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Racks allow me to have 10 plus ball pythons and not have a house full of fish tanks which is nice. I used to use tanks heck i still got them. If i had on or two bp's maybe i'd go back to tanks but i love all my babies so i'm all in on racks. Somebody already mentioned it and i agree that as long as you keep your bp's healthy that should be good enough for tank and tub people to respect each other. Some people think its important to have a nice display tank while others don't to each their own. Just recently somebody on these forums got a new bp that they claimed was living in a shoebox for the last two years. I'm guessing they are referring to tubs or racks. If so i felt that was ignorant.

Take this picture for example people really believe this is terrible. It's not. What i see is a relaxed healthy ball python that was probably getting a drink and to me that equals a happy ball python.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._52_47_pro.jpg

At the end of the day i've realized that's just the way people are gonna be. People just have to be needlessly hostile to each other over simple differences in the reptile world also in general and it's a shame to me.

If the needs of the snake are met it shouldn't be an issue. I choose a tub because I wanted a younger ball and didn't want to keep changing enclosures as he grows. Eventually I want to have a pvc enclosure so I can have somewhat of a display while still keeping the husbandry benefits of a tub. I've had my Ball 3 weeks now and so far I've had no issues with him in a tub.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EDR

Racks allow me to have 10 plus ball pythons and not have a house full of fish tanks which is nice. I used to use tanks heck i still got them. If i had on or two bp's maybe i'd go back to tanks but i love all my babies so i'm all in on racks. Somebody already mentioned it and i agree that as long as you keep your bp's healthy that should be good enough for tank and tub people to respect each other. Some people think its important to have a nice display tank while others don't to each their own. Just recently somebody on these forums got a new bp that they claimed was living in a shoebox for the last two years. I'm guessing they are referring to tubs or racks. If so i felt that was ignorant.

Take this picture for example people really believe this is terrible. It's not. What i see is a relaxed healthy ball python that was probably getting a drink and to me that equals a happy ball python.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._52_47_pro.jpg

At the end of the day i've realized that's just the way people are gonna be. People just have to be needlessly hostile to each other over simple differences in the reptile world also in general and it's a shame to me.

---

Thanks for your input EDR. I really like what you said about respecting each other. I personally use custom melamine display cages but I plan to also have racks when my collection grows.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bmocken

If the needs of the snake are met it shouldn't be an issue. I choose a tub because I wanted a younger ball and didn't want to keep changing enclosures as he grows. Eventually I want to have a pvc enclosure so I can have somewhat of a display while still keeping the husbandry benefits of a tub. I've had my Ball 3 weeks now and so far I've had no issues with him in a tub.

---

Bmocken it sounds to me like you have a good plan. Tubs do make it much easier to provide your ball python with proper care. I don't use them at the moment but that just means more work for me. It doesn't mean my snakes will suffer as long as I do as I should. Besides, I enjoy that part of the hobby and my collection is small enough to easily maintain.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by craigafrechette

I personally have all glass now, but would like to switch to PVC display enclosures.

To me, glass works just fine if you are willing to put in the due diligence to know what to do to properly care for your animal. If you're ok with the additional time, effort and potential headaches of glass and want to display your animals I say go for it. As long as the animal is properly cared for I don't see any reason to knock anybody's personal preference of enclosure. Typically, once your husbandry is dialed in, it's just routine maintenance from there and checking things daily to make sure everything is running properly. Then making some seasonal adjustments. Sure, humidity is a little tougher to maintain, especially during the dry, winter months. But if you're willing to take the time and make the appropriate adjustments, what's wrong with that?

That being said, I don't think I'll ever get rid of display enclosures. If the day comes that I have more snakes than time allows for me to properly maintain the glass, I may consider the more time efficient rack setup, but would still keep the majority in display enclosures. I'll cross that bridge then, but will probably limit my collection to what I can maintain in display enclosures.

I like the look of display enclosures and enjoy watching my snakes do what snakes do, even if that means stay in their hides the vast majority of the time.

In my opinion, if you're not capable of making glass work, you're probably going to have husbandry issues regardless of enclosure. It just takes a little homework and a little effort.

Either way, regardless of your choice of enclosure, if your animals are healthy and well taken care of I say you do you. :gj:

---

Agree 110%. I may use tubs eventually but I'll always have my display cages.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Depends on the person and the fact that some people forget that "what works in one house at not work in another".
The problem is when people come crying with problems BUT refuse to take any advice even if it means changing everything.
If your set-up is not working there is a reason.
99% of the members here will help more than any of us expect them to do.
1% of us a really blunt and straight forward.
100% are here for the animals we chose to keep.

It's a non debate :rolleyes:

It's about providing the adequate environment for a specific animal (species, age, possible issues etc).

If you have the experience and know how to provide husbandry you can make anything work, if you lack the experience and knowledge you can make anything fail and have issue with your animal.

Obviously someone with issues will be pointed toward an optimal easy setup that is proven and guaranteed to work, if there is no issue people should keep doing what they doing and not care so much about how other people keep their animal.