How much experience before breeding?

Someone I know is suddenly very excited about snakes and reptiles. They have less than half a year experience with ball pythons and are now buying ball pythons out the wazoo - only to keep them at a friends, or my house, Because he cant keep them at his. Ive already had to take a corn snake he didnt want and almost had to take a baby boa he was going to buy.

He seems actually very interested in reptiles and its genuine but he keeps talking about getting into breeding because its "something he can make money" with.

I offered my help, mostly to make sure the animals are actually getting cared for correctly. I hope I dont seem like a bit of negative nancy or a bitter bob. But Im just worried about the animals, is all.


How much experience did you have when you started breeding and did you do it to make extra cash? Any advice would help! Im no expert by any means! Only been doing this around 2 years.

Breeding anything just for money isn't a good idea. without passion it will be easy to get over whelmed and over run especially if he is already pushing snakes he is buying off on other people. where would he be planning on keeping the babies? as for experience every one a little different but there needs to be a plan a lot of research done before jumping off that cliff.

It is not rocket science to breed and care for these animals. All the information is out there. Buying and breeding the right animals for the market is something different entirely. This requires that you understand cash flow, investing and developing an eye for the animals.

All that said your friend frankly sounds like an idiot. You don't buy animals and have other people care for them. Ball pythons are difficult to actually make money with unless you are either very, very lucky or operating on a huge scale. I am pretty sure every breeder on here actually has a "real" job and most do it because they enjoy it. If they happen to make a few bucks, great. If not, there is always next year.

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Breeding anything just for money isn't a good idea. without passion it will be easy to get over whelmed and over run especially if he is already pushing snakes he is buying off on other people. where would he be planning on keeping the babies? as for experience every one a little different but there needs to be a plan a lot of research done before jumping off that cliff.

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My Thoughts entirely. I try to remind him that these are not toys, and that the animals need to be kept in proper homes and that he should be keeping them at his own house. he currently has like 8 ball pythons that hes keeping at his friends house and is planning on breeding them. I told him that he only really needs a pair to start. He constantly talks about trying to make super pastels so he can sell them for money, again, hes all about the $$. I think that's wrong. Even his parents have told them all they see him doing is buying random reptiles.

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It is not rocket science to breed and care for these animals. All the information is out there. Buying and breeding the right animals for the market is something different entirely. This requires that you understand cash flow, investing and developing an eye for the animals.

All that said your friend frankly sounds like an idiot. You don't buy animals and have other people care for them. Ball pythons are difficult to actually make money with unless you are either very, very lucky or operating on a huge scale. I am pretty sure every breeder on here actually has a "real" job and most do it because they enjoy it. If they happen to make a few bucks, great. If not, there is always next year.

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Thank you. I agree with you. I'm Super worried that he is going to get overwhelmed when hes trying to breed ball pythons AND crestys at the same time. I wont be surprised if I end up with another BP soon. I told him that he should keep them at his house and that breeding can be a lot of work when you suddenly have 15 babies that need to be cared for.


I just needed some feedback so I don't feel like i'm being Bitter about this whole thing. I truly am worried about the welfare of these animals. He is always trying to play with snakes and take them out just to take pictures with them and etc. I feel like he treats them like they're toys instead of living beings.

Welcome to adulthood. I have watched dozens of people decide that they want to breed ball pythons for profit. He'd be lucky to break even with his expenses, and the animals suffer for the attempt.

In fact almost every money making scheme you come up with in life will be a failure. It's a very long and hard lesson for many people to learn. And at the moment your friend is burning his friend's electricity, causing you guys to foot his expenses.

I know people who have owned BP for 5, 10 years and still have no clue. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Having experience means not only being to provide optimum husbandry, but being open to changes as well, it also mean being able to read your animals and be a problem solver when issue arise.


Can you make money? Well this question comes back often and my answer remains the same.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Can money be done? Yes the return can be from a collection that pays for itself to making an extra income, to doing this for a living.

Who are the people who can achieve those different levels?

Those that are passionate, know how to treat this like a business, know how to market themselves, know how to build a solid reputation, know the animals and their genetics (what to do what not to do) know the market, know how to evolve.



Who are those that fail?

Many of them! Those that have no clue, that think they are gonna make money overnight, that have no plan, that do not know & understand the market, that have to be spooned fed every step of the way, that fail to evolve with the market, that have no real passion, that have no patience.....

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Now personally yes I am making money however I do not depend on this money even if the extra income is really nice, it did not start that way either I started breeding because there was a morph that I really wanted but could not justify spending $7500/$10000 for a pet so instead I made it. I got hooked withing 2 years my collection was paying for itself and I started making a profit soon afterward, and it only has increased over the years. It's not an easy way to make money, it's a lot of work, sacrifices, and heartache and most people getting into this will fail.

Ultimately if you want to take the plunge YOU will need to do the homework, no one will spoon feed you, tell you how to go about it, what to do every step of the way, tell you what to breed, what make money.....YOU need to do it on your own because by doing so it will demonstrate your commitment which most people lack.

And remember breeding snakes and making money (if you do) is more than just putting 2 snakes together.

In other words YOUR friend needs to figure it out, and no there is no money in super pastels.

I know you can't stop your friend if he decides to breed BPs, but definitely try to talk him out of it. If he doesn't even keep the animals at his own house and he is talking about money being his motivating factor he is in in for the wrong reasons and is sure to fail at the animal's expense. Maybe show him on this thread and some others that discuss breeding and the time and experience and luck involved to be "successful" financially. Like said above, he will probably struggle to break even. Maybe seeing some facts or threads about the difficulty of turning a profit on a small scale breeding level would discourage him. Money being his motivator would probably be the best way to change his mind as well. If he sees the difficulties in making a quick buck, maybe he will move onto another hair-brained money-making idea that at least won't cause any animals to suffer.
If he's already not keeping "his" animals at home and he is already pawning off unwanted animals, then he has no business bringing more into the world.

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

I know you can't stop your friend if he decides to breed BPs, but definitely try to talk him out of it. If he doesn't even keep the animals at his own house and he is talking about money being his motivating factor he is in in for the wrong reasons and is sure to fail at the animal's expense. Maybe show him on this thread and some others that discuss breeding and the time and experience and luck involved to be "successful" financially. Like said above, he will probably struggle to break even. Maybe seeing some facts or threads about the difficulty of turning a profit on a small scale breeding level would discourage him. Money being his motivator would probably be the best way to change his mind as well. If he sees the difficulties in making a quick buck, maybe he will move onto another hair-brained money-making idea that at least won't cause any animals to suffer.
If he's already not keeping "his" animals at home and he is already pawning off unwanted animals, then he has no business bringing more into the world.

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This ^^^ and I would add please don't enable your friend's BS. By helping him you are just enabling him to get more animals.

One question I have. If other people are housing his animals, who is feeding and cleaning them? If everyone else is caring for the animals, how will he be able to care for a sudden twice as many and be able to deal with ones that are being finicky?

Kyle


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Thank you all for your replies. I tried to tell him the risks and tell him how it is a lot of work, but he will not listen to me. He is a very stubborn person - and always take the advice I give as if i'm talking down to him, despite what the realities might be. Even tho I just state the facts.

He is currently keeping his animals at his girlfriends brothers house who has a boa and actually knows how to care for snakes. I can only assume he is the one feeding/caring for the snakes, since it would require a cross city bus ride for my friend to do it himself.

When he wanted me to keep the boa (that he never bought because I couldnt keep it in my house right away), he offered to pay for its food and etc. Which hints that I was going to be feeding the animal, handling it, and cleaning its cage. Which in my opinion basically makes it mine.

I tried to talk to him about this stuff, he just says he appreciates the advice and then sluffs me off.

Whenever hes around these animals hes CONSTANTLY trying to take them out and play with them, that's why I don't think he understands that these are animals that deserve respect and NOT toys to constantly be played with. He hasn't had a "hobby" before this, so I think hes really just doing it as a "Status" thing, and because he excited about something new. It is like he is only interested in reptiles so he can be "that snake guy"

His plan is to sell the offspring to a local reptile store - which I highly doubt is even a good business plan. Which he doesn't have.

Thank you all for your understanding and comments. He is spending hundreds of dollars because he "cant pass up a deal". What should I do?

Here's my final word on this. As far as your friend playing with the animals, some can take it, some cannot. My daughters play with many of mine like they are barbie dolls and they are fine. I have a couple they are not allowed to touch for various reasons.

The only cure for your friend may be to ask what pet store owner is willing to give wholesale for a particular animal. Odds are he will be shocked. It is waaaaayyyy less than the ticket price.

Also calculate the hours, food and other expenses it takes to take care of each animal. I can tell you this to the penny. Then..... there is always the possibility of a sudden vet bill which could take a significant bite into your yearly expenses.

Get him a better hobby. Preferably something that occupies his time and money.

Honestly it doesn't sound like he needs snakes, it sounds like he wants to spend money and is going about it entirely wrong. Get him into responsible gambling (stocks) and maybe he won't be kicking himself later

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

The only cure for your friend may be to ask what pet store owner is willing to give wholesale for a particular animal. Odds are he will be shocked. It is waaaaayyyy less than the ticket price.

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I'd love to know if he has even approached this pet store that he's going to sell them to about buying the animals. I think Jodan's right that he's going to experience some sticker shock regarding wholesale prices if he hasn't done any research into it. Especially if all he's trying to breed for is super pastels (!!!).

I would like to add that breeding takes time and you have to check them every day to get a successful breeding/laying. I have been keeping bps for 9 years and still have a difficult time breeding and knowing what to look for in terms of ovulation and such (I just started breeding last year) it takes time and money to be successful at breeding, if he is just wanting to sell super pastels he may not be able to sell all or any since there are so many higher end morphs out there now. If he is just in it for the money he most likely won't succeed. I think He needs a different hobby.

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He could, but did he start research on the breeding process yet?

Tell him that ball python breeding is not as quick-make-a-buck as it sounds. I've been pairing my one pair since last November every 3 weeks, and my female has not ovulated yet. During this whole process, she needs to eat more frequently, so more feeders to buy. Then after ovulation, it's another month and a half before the eggs are laid. Then after the eggs are laid, it's another 2 months to wait for them to hatch. THEN after they hatch, you need to wait for their first shed. Then you need to keep all 5~10 hatchlings and feed each one for a couple meals~months, depending on marketing skills and how fast they sell, before selling them and finally making what... a few dollars? Less than a week's worth of pay at his normal job?

So if you are looking at it purely from an economic standpoint, you are waiting/"working" for up to 11 months to gain back... $100? $400? You are not actually making money, just breaking even with your costs at best, especially for his first pairing and without reputation. LOL

He needs to be genuinely interested in the breeding process for this to be a good experience.

I'm not a breeder so I can't really comment about what it takes to be one etc. But I would imagine it's a lot harder than it looks on paper. You aren't going to get rich and you get out of it what you put into it. Sometimes. You need to have quality stock in order to make animals that stand out from what everyone else is making and that takes money. In addition you need to be able to spend a lot of money on a vet at the drop of a dime so your collection doesn't become sick and die. I think people get excited when they see youtube vids of people cutting clutches and showing off their snakes but they don't see the hard work that goes on during the other 24 hours and 45 minutes of their day. I have much respect for those that can run successful breeding operations. it takes passion and hard work and is anything but "easy money".

There's no specific level of experience required, it's purely a personal choice. I kept reptiles for over 20 years before having any real interest in the breeding process. Most of my collection consisted of pretty random stuff and I seldom had more than 1 of any given species at a time. Reptiles have always been fascinating to me, no less today than when I was just a stone/log flipping kiddo. Breeding opened up a whole new aspect of care that put me back on square 1 as far as experience - which was really enjoyable. If you don't truly enjoy it, you probably aren't going to last very long as a keeper, much less a breeder.

Experience with these animals is only that, business side of things is entirely different.

Imo they should focus on getting their own place first, diving into this hobby will only make it take longer before he can afford to move out. By the end of it, breeding for super pastels won't pay the mortgage. Also I think you are enabling him by keeping his animals. Unless he pays you for boarding, you should be blaming yourself as well. You could start with " if you want to breed that's fine, but I won't be keeping your animals" and don't take in any more of them.

I'm sorry but most of these responses are way too nice. Your friend sounds like an idiot to put it as nicely as possible. My biggest issue is that he is not even keeping his own animals. He has no business buying animals that he can't keep. It is insane to me that he is already talking breeding and buying more animals when he can't even keep his own animals. So he has no idea how or what it takes to even care for them and keep them healthy. He's basically saying he is going to use the people taking care of his animals to breed them for him so he can make money selling babies.

You and the other people caring for his animals need to immediately stop enabling him! If he has no place to keep them, he wont be able to have any and that would stop him from buying more and obviously squash his breeding plans. Give him a week to take his animals or your going to sell them or even buy them from him. If he takes them home, great, that is a good start. Then he can start from step one like everyone else, learn how to properly keep and care for the animals himself. Once he can do that then he can breed if he chooses to, everyone that breeds had to start from somewhere. I don't think it is a big deal if he wants to breed fairly quickly after caring for his own animals but it shouldn't even be considered if he does not keep them at his own place.

Now if he thinks hes going to make money doing it, he should really look for a better place to make an income because more than likely he will not even break even for years. Doing it because you love the animals and would like to produce more for yourself or just because you enjoy the process, well that's for him to decide but those are the only good reasons to breed them. Nobody makes money on these animals that doesn't love them. Everyone that tries quits because there is not much money in it and it takes a lot of work, time and money to take care of these animals. If your not enjoying caring for them and the whole breeding process, you will not make enough money to make it worth it guaranteed! Many have tried and they all fail. The breeders producing enough babies to make a profit have a serious passion for these animals.

The only positive thing you've said about him is that he constantly wants to take the animals out, handle them and photograph them because to me, that does show that he is very interested in them and likes them. It may not be great for the animals depending on how often and what exactly he is doing with them but that's a different topic.

First step is to stop giving him places to keep these animals he's buying. Once he's keeping them himself, then he can decide on his own where he wants to go from there but you have to stop enabling him to get more, he obviously can't start a breeding project if he has no animals. If he does take them home and cares for them himself, then their really is no set time before he starts breeding them but he'll need to make that decision on his own once he sees what it's like to care for them himself.

Lo and behold: hes now asking me to take care of his ball python because he cant keep it at his house. He wants to keep it at my house because him and his business partner had a falling out now the "partner" is trying to sell all of his snakes and leave the province. Utter waste of money and time. This is exactly what I tried to tell him would happen. Now these snakes must be sold and rehomed. So much for breeding.


Also, I dont keep any animals but my own. I wouldnt let someone pawn an aminal off on me just because they cant take care of it.