DNA, Chromosomes and Chimera talk

Though pretty unlikely, this could actually happen. It is similar to paradoxing or chimerism if not caused by them. I am recalling a person who had one set of genetic code on the exterior anatomy and entirely different set of genetic code for their internal organs. It seems weird that a vet would make this call with at least a little experience.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Though pretty unlikely, this could actually happen. It is similar to paradoxing or chimerism if not caused by them. I am recalling a person who had one set of genetic code on the exterior anatomy and entirely different set of genetic code for their internal organs. It seems weird that a vet would make this call with at least a little experience.

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The thing is...this Vet made that determination after sexing the Ball Python.

How would they know that the "insides" are that of a Blood Python?? How is a Blood Python different on the inside ?

And how would you "know" that by sexing a baby snake?

I find that one of the more odd ones :)

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Though pretty unlikely, this could actually happen. It is similar to paradoxing or chimerism if not caused by them. I am recalling a person who had one set of genetic code on the exterior anatomy and entirely different set of genetic code for their internal organs. It seems weird that a vet would make this call with at least a little experience.

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Still wouldn't work, Even if you breed a blood to a ball the resulting DNA would be a mix of blood and ball. There wouldn't be blood parts and ball parts. Only blood/ball parts. So even a paradox from the pairing would be two separate blood/ball parts

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Though pretty unlikely, this could actually happen. It is similar to paradoxing or chimerism if not caused by them. I am recalling a person who had one set of genetic code on the exterior anatomy and entirely different set of genetic code for their internal organs. It seems weird that a vet would make this call with at least a little experience.

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This is interesting and I honestly would have not thought it was possible to have this type of hybrid without outward visual indicators, but at that level of genetics I am definitely in over my head. The stars that would have to align to make this possible I would think are very nearly statistically impossible though. We are talking a hybrid that is also albino with no external visual indicators. I would think that Z would see them if they were there. She has both species.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

This is interesting and I honestly would have not thought it was possible to have this type of hybrid without outward visual indicators, but at that level of genetics I am definitely in over my head. The stars that would have to align to make this possible I would think are very nearly statistically impossible though. We are talking a hybrid that is also albino with no external visual indicators. I would think that Z would see them if they were there. She has both species.

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But I don't have the "inside / out" special !!! :rofl:


or...maybe I do and just don't know it...

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Still wouldn't work, Even if you breed a blood to a ball the resulting DNA would be a mix of blood and ball. There wouldn't be blood parts and ball parts. Only blood/ball parts. So even a paradox from the pairing would be two separate blood/ball parts

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Mixing is how genetic inheritance is supposed to occur, but that is not always the case as we see with Chimeras. There is no apparent rhyme or reason to how these genetic anomalies occur, like I said unlikely but not impossible.

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Originally Posted by zina10

The thing is...this Vet made that determination after sexing the Ball Python.

How would they know that the "insides" are that of a Blood Python?? How is a Blood Python different on the inside ?

And how would you "know" that by sexing a baby snake?

I find that one of the more odd ones :)

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I would assume there are some differences in genitalia as there are between many closely related species. Now the vet would need to have pretty vast experience with both, but it just doesn't add up to me why they would say that to suggest this otherwise. In all likelihood this came down to a miscommunication between a vet and the owner.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Mixing is how genetic inheritance is supposed to occur, but that is not always the case as we see with Chimeras. There is no apparent rhyme or reason to how these genetic anomalies occur, like I said unlikely but not impossible.

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Still doesn't work like that. Chimeras are still part mommy part daddy in both "sections". However for the unlikely but not impossible scenario, it is possible the albino genes are the same in both species (like ball pythons and burms) so it might be possible to have a blood/ball albino paradox.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Still doesn't work like that. Chimeras are still part mommy part daddy in both "sections". However for the unlikely but not impossible scenario, it is possible the albino genes are the same in both species (like ball pythons and burms) so it might be possible to have a blood/ball albino paradox.

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There is actually a case of a persons sex organs being of different genetics than the rest of her body. Her name was Lydia Fairchild and there was a whole interesting court cased involved for those who are interested.

By mixing I was more referring to phenotypical expression, for example a split faced cat or an animal that appears to be a ball with blood genitalia. Often a hybrid takes cues from one parent over the other. As we see in snakes you can actually get offspring that resemble each parent, which is why I went with the chimera theory. Thinking about this more though, you would not even need chimerism for this to happen as it simply could be a case of which phenotype is shown. A hybrid is not always a perfect mix of both animals but may take traits from either. Also we are assuming that snake hybrids are diploid when the fact that they are not generally sterile could point to polyploidy even further making this a possible situation. If this were the case then the possibility that a chimera that is genetically separate part ball and part blood actually do exist, although I will admit the probability is incredibly low.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

There is actually a case of a persons sex organs being of different genetics than the rest of her body. Her name was Lydia Fairchild and there was a whole interesting court cased involved for those who are interested.

By mixing I was more referring to phenotypical expression, for example a split faced cat or an animal that appears to be a ball with blood genitalia. Often a hybrid takes cues from one parent over the other. As we see in snakes you can actually get offspring that resemble each parent, which is why I went with the chimera theory. Thinking about this more though, you would not even need chimerism for this to happen as it simply could be a case of which phenotype is shown. A hybrid is not always a perfect mix of both animals but may take traits from either. Also we are assuming that snake hybrids are diploid when the fact that they are not generally sterile could point to polyploidy even further making this a possible situation. If this were the case then the possibility that a chimera that is genetically separate part ball and part blood actually do exist, although I will admit the probability is incredibly low.

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I am fimilar with the case. All of her DNA is part mommy part daddy. It's not just the dad or just the mom. It is mixed. She just has different mixes of DNA in different areas. No different than me and my brother having different mixes of our mommy and daddy. Except those mixes are in one body. Chimeras are combined would be siblings, DNA works the same, just might be different in one area of the body vs another.

Yes one animals traits can dominant over another. I notice it seems any ball hybrid has a ball head. However the pattern and body makes it obvious to what it was mixed with. There have been quite a few blood balls aka superball. None I've seen could be mistaken for just a ball.

So even in polypoid situation, which btw is a huge leap imo, the resulting chimera would still have 2 separate DNA that are both the mix of mommy and daddy.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I am fimilar with the case. All of her DNA is part mommy part daddy. It's not just the dad or just the mom. It is mixed. She just has different mixes of DNA in different areas. No different than me and my brother having different mixes of our mommy and daddy. Except those mixes are in one body. Chimeras are combined would be siblings, DNA works the same, just might be different in one area of the body vs another.

Yes one animals traits can dominant over another. I notice it seems any ball hybrid has a ball head. However the pattern and body makes it obvious to what it was mixed with. There have been quite a few blood balls aka superball. None I've seen could be mistaken for just a ball.

So even in polypoid situation, which btw is a huge leap imo, the resulting chimera would still have 2 separate DNA that are both the mix of mommy and daddy.

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I am aware the genetics are mixed code from each parent in a chimera, but phenotypic expression is not necessarily. Phenotype is what we are talking about in this situation, no? I explained my train of thought with different looking siblings being combined into a chimera, so I am not sure why you are still bringing up mixed genetic code. Am I missing something?

It could be that no one is advertising the more plain hatchlings. Here is a mix that is exactly opposite of what you have described head of a blood, pattern of a ball. http://s218.photobucket.com/user/abi...rball.jpg.html

Diploid means two chromosomes, one from each parent containing genetic code or DNA. Each chromosome is composed of two strands of DNA so that means four DNA to a set. Polyploid is having more than a single set from each parent, usually double so 4 chromosomes or 8 strands of DNA. Out of the 4 one matching pair is allowed to pair during meiosis creating essentially cloned DNA, but each chromosome pair is not from the same parent. It may be unlikely that this is possible because it is thought that homoploid hybrids are more common in animals, but not many studies have been done on hybrid genetics in animals.

My point was not that this animal was in fact a hybrid just that there is a possibility, if not very small, of the animal the vet described could exist in real life. An exercise in pointlessness? Possibly, but interesting to me at least. Truthfully I do not believe any trained vet would say this even if they didn't know much about snakes, and I am not saying your acquaintance is a liar either. I think this is more likely due to a miscommunication, as I said earlier. Let her know she is welcome and that we all had to start somewhere.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

My point was not that this animal was in fact a hybrid just that there is a possibility, if not very small, of the animal the vet described could exist in real life. An exercise in pointlessness? Possibly, but interesting to me at least. Truthfully I do not believe any trained vet would say this even if they didn't know much about snakes, and I am not saying your acquaintance is a liar either. I think this is more likely due to a miscommunication, as I said earlier. Let her know she is welcome and that we all had to start somewhere.

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so, just out of curiosity...would the poodle/bulldog scenario be possible, just in theory ?

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Originally Posted by zina10

so, just out of curiosity...would the poodle/bulldog scenario be possible, just in theory ?

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I am not going to say it is impossible, but certainly even less likely. Some of the processes I am referring to only apply to hybrids of different species, which a poodle and a bulldog are not. Truthfully I am not as well versed on dog genetics.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I am aware the genetics are mixed code from each parent in a chimera, but phenotypic expression is not necessarily. Phenotype is what we are talking about in this situation, no? I explained my train of thought with different looking siblings being combined into a chimera, so I am not sure why you are still bringing up mixed genetic code. Am I missing something?

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I bring it up because I have yet to see hybrids in the animal kingdom where one species completely dominants over the other as being suggested. Even if there is, there's plenty of super balls that show what to expect, even the one you just posted.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

It could be that no one is advertising the more plain hatchlings. Here is a mix that is exactly opposite of what you have described head of a blood, pattern of a ball. http://s218.photobucket.com/user/abi...rball.jpg.html

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The picture is too low quality to pick out any features but even looking through the grain the head shape (I should of been more specific) looks more ball than blood to me. And even at that low quality it is still very obvious it is a hybrid even just looking at the body.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Diploid means two chromosomes, one from each parent containing genetic code or DNA. Each chromosome is composed of two strands of DNA so that means four DNA to a set. Polyploid is having more than a single set from each parent, usually double so 4 chromosomes or 8 strands of DNA. Out of the 4 one matching pair is allowed to pair during meiosis creating essentially cloned DNA, but each chromosome pair is not from the same parent. It may be unlikely that this is possible because it is thought that homoploid hybrids are more common in animals, but not many studies have been done on hybrid genetics in animals.

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I still don't see how this give the possibility suggested.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

My point was not that this animal was in fact a hybrid just that there is a possibility, if not very small, of the animal the vet described could exist in real life.

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Ant,

Reading all of your replies it seems you are somewhat confused about how the genetics of chimeras work even after OWAL's attempts to clear it up. Perhaps I might have more success.

First off, no, it is absolutely not possible for an animal like the vet described to exist and I say that with absolute certainty. You cannot have a hybrid that is genetically/phenotypically ball python on the outside and genetically/phenotypically blood python on the inside.

A chimera comes about from the the fusion of two embryos in the womb. The embryos have different genotypes and so, when a chimera is sampled by both skin sample and blood sample, the two samples come back as being different. However, both samples come back as being from the same mother and father, which is to say the samples look like they came from siblings, despite the fact that they came from a single individual. The samples do not come back looking like two wholly unrelated entities.

So... If you had a ball/blood hybrid and if it were a chimera, it would look exactly like a normal ball/blood hybrid on the outside and on the inside and the only way you could tell it was a chimera would be by genetic testing and not by popping it.

Truthfully how many super ball clutches have you seen? Here is one that could be easily confused for a ball by someone with little experience http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...pslkyghga6.jpg
I have seen some T. radix hybrids that look exactly like their parent, and isn't this the thing the entire anti hybrid crowd base their hysteria off of? In a polyploid situation you end up with the genetic information translated my mieosis from that specific pair is an exact copy of the parents dna. If the chromosome that codes for exterior looks is ball and the chromosome that codes for internal organs is blood then you end up with the situation the vet described. We are talking about a very specific combination that would likely not pop up often, and in general you would end up with animals that is a mix of the species.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Perhaps we should dial back to the original topic, what is the difference between ball and blood genitalia?

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I hear you and I admit that I don't know much about snake genitalia. It seems pretty hard to find pictures of blood python hemipenes. I think it would more strange if they were identical based off my experience with biology.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Truthfully how many super ball clutches have you seen? Here is one that could be easily confused for a ball by someone with little experience http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...pslkyghga6.jpg
I have seen some T. radix hybrids that look exactly like their parent, and isn't this the thing the entire anti hybrid crowd base their hysteria off of? In a polyploid situation you end up with the genetic information translated my mieosis from that specific pair is an exact copy of the parents dna. If the chromosome that codes for exterior looks is ball and the chromosome that codes for internal organs is blood then you end up with the situation the vet described. We are talking about a very specific combination that would likely not pop up often, and in general you would end up with animals that is a mix of the species.


I hear you and I admit that I don't know much about snake genitalia. It seems pretty hard to find pictures of blood python hemipenes. I think it would more strange if they were identical based off my experience with biology.

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This isn't a situation involving polyploidy. As far as we know all snakes have 36 pairs of chomosomes: 20 micro, 36 macro. Hybrids between python species occur successfully so often because of the similarities. Many of them are even fertile.

And its not the chromosome as one whole that codes for traits, its the alleles on the chromosomes that do. There are very many alleles that go into each trait that an organism possesses. Some hybrids may look more or less like one of the parents, but that goes for any organism, including those that are not hybrids.

And its highly likely that most python species have very similar hemipenes. Given that many can interbreed successfully and produce fertile offspring the reproductory organs must be similar.

I hope that this made some sense. If any of it is unclear or anybody has a question let me know!


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Originally Posted by asplundii

Ant,

Reading all of your replies it seems you are somewhat confused about how the genetics of chimeras work even after OWAL's attempts to clear it up. Perhaps I might have more success.

First off, no, it is absolutely not possible for an animal like the vet described to exist and I say that with absolute certainty. You cannot have a hybrid that is genetically/phenotypically ball python on the outside and genetically/phenotypically blood python on the inside.

A chimera comes about from the the fusion of two embryos in the womb. The embryos have different genotypes and so, when a chimera is sampled by both skin sample and blood sample, the two samples come back as being different. However, both samples come back as being from the same mother and father, which is to say the samples look like they came from siblings, despite the fact that they came from a single individual. The samples do not come back looking like two wholly unrelated entities.

So... If you had a ball/blood hybrid and if it were a chimera, it would look exactly like a normal ball/blood hybrid on the outside and on the inside and the only way you could tell it was a chimera would be by genetic testing and not by popping it.

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No I am aware that a chimera is a fusion of two embryos, which is why I said "As we see in snakes you can actually get offspring that resemble each parent, which is why I went with the chimera theory". Meaning that it could be a Chimera between two phenotypically opposite animals. I think OWAL caught this. After thinking about it more I was over complicating the possibility and there are even other ways you can create this snake. Speaking in absolutes is neither scientific or advisable. As I already told OWAL I am aware is comprised of genetic material of both parents but that does not mean it will share the phenotype of both or either.

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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

This isn't a situation involving polyploidy. As far as we know all snakes have 36 pairs of chomosomes: 20 micro, 36 macro. Hybrids between python species occur successfully so often because of the similarities. Many of them are even fertile.

And its not the chromosome as one whole that codes for traits, its the alleles on the chromosomes that do. There are very many alleles that go into each trait that an organism possesses. Some hybrids may look more or less like one of the parents, but that goes for any organism, including those that are not hybrids.

And its highly likely that most python species have very similar hemipenes. Given that many can interbreed successfully and produce fertile offspring the reproductory organs must be similar.

I hope that this made some sense. If any of it is unclear or anybody has a question let me know!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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You are probably right polyploidy is unlikely but until it is proven that this mechanism is not the way snake hybrids are created it still is a possibly. The number of chromosomes a parent species has does not effect if the hybrid is formed by homoploid or polyploid processes. I believe in some polyploid situations after meiosis the number of chromosome is returned to the same amount as the two parent species, that is of course if they have the same number. Again it is unlikely that it is polyploidy but I am not certain the research exists to say how hybrid snakes are formed to say one way or another.

A chromosome carries the DNA that hold an allele from parent to offspring. We are talking about the inheritance of said trait so the chromosome is molecule I am focused on. I can not explain every minute detail about the entire genetic science, nor do people want to listen to that.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

You are probably right polyploidy is unlikely but until it is proven that this mechanism is not the way snake hybrids are created it still is a possibly. The number of chromosomes a parent species has does not effect if the hybrid is formed by homoploid or polyploid processes. I believe in some polyploid situations after meiosis the number of chromosome is returned to the same amount as the two parent species, that is of course if they have the same number. Again it is unlikely that it is polyploidy but I am not certain the research exists to say how hybrid snakes are formed to say one way or another.

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Except it can and has been proven. When polyploidy occurs in a diploid animal, that animal is infertile. Hybrid snakes have been able to reproduce. Thus it can not be polyploidy.

If snakes have pairs of chromosomes, and each parent gives one chromosome, the offspring has one set inherited from each parent. This means that it has one pair of each chromosome. Nowhere could it become polyploid. The number of chromosomes a parent has certainly does affect how the offspring is formed.


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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

Except it can and has been proven. When polyploidy occurs in a diploid animal, that animal is infertile. Hybrid snakes have been able to reproduce. Thus it can not be polyploidy.

If snakes have pairs of chromosomes, and each parent gives one chromosome, the offspring has one set inherited from each parent. This means that it has one pair of each chromosome. Nowhere could it become polyploid. The number of chromosomes a parent has certainly does affect how the offspring is formed.


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Saying that polyploids in diploid leads to infertility is just plain false. About 50 percent of women with down syndrom are fertile. Even in a case of polyploidy of sex chromosomes, as is the case with Klinefelters syndrome a small percent are fertile for the majority of their life.

You are confusing the process of diploid sexual reproduction in the same species versus that between seperate species where the DNA is not necessarily compatible. You need to look into the difference between polyploid speciation and homoploid speciation. Then please get back to me.

I think I have taken this thread about as far off topic as I can, and it is beginning to seem disrespectful to the OP so I would encourage anyone who would like to continue this line of conversation to pm me.

by all means, go on and continue, I don't mind ;)

I'm fascinated by all that info, but I have to say, I'm starting to get really lost, LOL.

Still interesting to read about it.

Alright, as long as you are good with it.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Saying that polyploids in diploid leads to infertility is just plain false. About 50 percent of women with down syndrom are fertile. Even in a case of polyploidy of sex chromosomes, as is the case with Klinefelters syndrome a small percent are fertile for the majority of their life.

You are confusing the process of diploid sexual reproduction in the same species versus that between seperate species where the DNA is not necessarily compatible. You need to look into the difference between polyploid speciation and homoploid speciation. Then please get back to me.

I think I have taken this thread about as far off topic as I can, and it is beginning to seem disrespectful to the OP so I would encourage anyone who would like to continue this line of conversation to pm me.

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Down syndrome is not a case of polyploidy though. It is trisomy, a form of aneuploidy.

"The distinction between aneuploidy and polyploidy is that aneuploidy refers to a numerical change in part of the chromosome set, whereas polyploidy refers to a numerical change in the whole set of chromosomes."


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So it your contention that a aneuploid would not be infertile but a polyploid would? It is pretty commonly accepted that uneven numbers of chromosomes are more likely lead to infertility than even ones.

Here is an article that describes a triploid hybrid from two diploid species of fish. Not only that but they can reproduce asexually as well as sexually. That sounds far from infertile to me.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...9N_h6h04dTjpPA

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Speaking in absolutes is neither scientific or advisable.

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Oh, we are going to go there are we?

Sure, according to the laws of probability anything is possible. But while there is a minuscule probability of jumping from the top of Burj Khalifa and living I can absolutely guarantee that actually going and doing it means you will die. Because science (aka gravity) says you will

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I am aware is comprised of genetic material of both parents but that does not mean it will share the phenotype of both or either.

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And yet your argument is that it is possible to do exactly that. In a somehow anatomically/spatially selective manner.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

We are talking about the inheritance of said trait so the chromosome is molecule I am focused on.

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No, we are talking about collective genomic inheritance and expression. A hybrid will inherit a full compliment of chromosomes from each parent and so each [somatic] cell will carry both sets of chromosomes and, with some few exceptions, all of the genes from both parents will be expressed in those cells.

You will never get a hybrid where the "outside" cells are made up exclusively of only ball python chromosome cells and the "inside" cells are made up exclusively of only blood python chromosome cells. It absolutely, fundamentally cannot happen.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I can not explain every minute detail about the entire genetic science

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Yes well... I can explain genetics in minute detail ;)

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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

When polyploidy occurs in a diploid animal, that animal is infertile. Hybrid snakes have been able to reproduce. Thus it can not be polyploidy.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Saying that polyploids in diploid leads to infertility is just plain false.

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Careful there Ant, you do not want to go speaking in absolutes because that is neither scientific or advisable... :P


Fact of the matter is that you are both right and both wrong. While polyploidy most often does result in infertile offspring there are documented cases of fertile polyploids that have occurred, generally leading to a speciation event. Some quick examples that come to mind are the Grey and Cope's Grey treefrog and the horned frogs Ceratophrys cranwelli and C. ornata along with more blatant examples like the wheat and corn that humans have cultivated for centuries.


The long and the short of it is that, regardless of whatever mystical hand waving you want to try throwing at it, what the vet claimed is simply not possible.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Oh, we are going to go there are we?

Sure, according to the laws of probability anything is possible. But while there is a minuscule probability of jumping from the top of Burj Khalifa and living I can absolutely guarantee that actually going and doing it means you will die. Because science (aka gravity) says you will




And yet your argument is that it is possible to do exactly that. In a somehow anatomically/spatially selective manner.




No, we are talking about collective genomic inheritance and expression. A hybrid will inherit a full compliment of chromosomes from each parent and so each [somatic] cell will carry both sets of chromosomes and, with some few exceptions, all of the genes from both parents will be expressed in those cells.

You will never get a hybrid where the "outside" cells are made up exclusively of only ball python chromosome cells and the "inside" cells are made up exclusively of only blood python chromosome cells. It absolutely, fundamentally cannot happen.




Yes well... I can explain genetics in minute detail ;)






Careful there Ant, you do not want to go speaking in absolutes because that is neither scientific or advisable... :P


Fact of the matter is that you are both right and both wrong. While polyploidy most often does result in infertile offspring there are documented cases of fertile polyploids that have occurred, generally leading to a speciation event. Some quick examples that come to mind are the Grey and Cope's Grey treefrog and the horned frogs Ceratophrys cranwelli and C. ornata along with more blatant examples like the wheat and corn that humans have cultivated for centuries.


The long and the short of it is that, regardless of whatever mystical hand waving you want to try throwing at it, what the vet claimed is simply not possible.

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...And yet people have survived jumping out of plains so it not impossible just highly unlikely. This is a perfect example of a straw man argument.

My argument is that you could have something that looks like a ball python on the outside and has reproductive organs that appear to be from a blood python. I provided the way it could be possible just by phenotypic expression, the more likely option, and by actual genetic make up. The second is a bit of a stretch, but not impossible. I will leave it you to try to specifically refute them.

No you did not explain every minute detail, because that would be insanely tedius. That was my point. Secondly no you can not as not every thing about genetic inheritance is fully understood, by the human race at least. Maybe you are some sort of omnicent being, then I will eat my words.

He made the statement that all diploids that becone polyploids are infertile and i provided proof that was not true. I never said that all polyploids are fertile. So where did I speak in absolutes?

Did you come here to make grandstands or talk about genetics? If it is the latter I would be interested in hearing where you think I am wrong, with in genetic possibility. The only part of your post that had substance was the last section and unfortunately you didn't go into much detail. Yes i am talking about things that are highly unlikely, but that is a far stretch from impossible. Science was once considered magic.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

...And yet people have survived jumping out of plains so it not impossible just highly unlikely. This is a perfect example of a straw man argument.

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And here I was talking about a very specific set of conditions that had not one thing to do with airplanes and you bring up airplanes… So strawman right back at you.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

My argument is that you could have something that looks like a ball python on the outside and has reproductive organs that appear to be from a blood python. I provided the way it could be possible just by phenotypic expression, the more likely option, and by actual genetic make up.

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You provided a cherry-picked bad picture as proof and even in that bad picture you can see the animal is not a pure ball. And if you have ever had hands on a ball/blood hybrid there is simply no way you could confuse it as being a ball.

As for the genetic make-up… You have not provided anything close to proof. Proof would be an actual documented genetic mechanism. All you have provided is rampant speculation built off of a topic in genetics that most people in the hobby do not understand nearly as well as they would like to think they do.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

The second is a bit of a stretch, but not impossible. I will leave it you to try to specifically refute them.

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I already did refute them. Twice. You have pointedly ignored my refutations.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

No you did not explain every minute detail

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I said that I could I did not say that I had.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

because that would be insanely tedius.

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Yes, it will be tedious since it appears that I am going to have to create a full set of PowerPoint slides so I can convert them into .jpg thereby allowing me to deliver a full on lecture about what is basic genetics and cell biology.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Secondly no you can not as not every thing about genetic inheritance is fully understood, by the human race at least.

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No, everything about genetic inheritance is not fully known. But the bare basics are and this is a bare basics situation.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Maybe you are some sort of omnicent being, then I will eat my words.

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Ahhh... Snark. I enjoy snark (ad hominem attack much??)

No, I am not omniscient. However, between the two of us I would posit that there is the distinct probability that I just might know a little bit more about genetics than you do…

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Did you come here to make grandstands or talk about genetics?

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I am talking genetics, but if you want to accuse me of grandstanding (hey look, another ad hominem attack) rather than actually refuting the legitimate genetics I have put forth then please, go right ahead.

If I have the free time and the boredom I will make up the slide I mentioned above and then I will slip into full on lecture mode. However, right now I have finished eating lunch so I have other duties to attend to

Awe, come on guys, debate nicely. I'm actually getting something out of your conversation.

I think the closest thing you could get to something that was genetically ball python in certain parts and blood python in certain parts would have to be dual sired and BOTH a hybrid and a chimera. Chimerism really does have different genetics in different cells, but it's from two fertilized zygotes fusing. Hybridization is via the regular reproductive process so one chromosome of the pair from each, crossing over, etc.

So say you had a blood python mother mated with both a male blood python and a male ball python. Then, there were successfully zygotes from both the blood python mating and the ball python mating at the same time. These two zygotes then successfully fuse to create a chimera. That chimera would be blood/ball in some parts and pure blood python in others. One of these parts could then be the genitals. Of course, I could also buy a lottery ticket but I don't because it's pretty much not gonna happen.

I don't know what to tell you, snarkyness begets snarkyness. You telling me how intelligent you are is doing nothing to convince me that it is true. I am only saying that an animal that looks like a ball and has what appear to be blood python genitals could exist. My first reply very directly covered every counter point you tried to make including the one where you accused my of not understanding that in simple sexual reproduction genetic material is passed from both parents even after I said several time that is not what I am saying. So again I repeat myself if this is a case of homoploid hybrid than yes genetic information is passed from both parents equally on each chromosome location. This does not mean that the animal has to look like a mix of both parents by phenotypic expression. The animal could in fact look like a ball with blood genitalia on the surface. Yes, the animal will likely look like a mix. The point of pictures were to show the variation in phenotype, and I think you know this but it does not fit your argument. Just because an animal could exist does not mean it does exist. Do I think the animal I am describing does exist? Probably not, and therefore would be asinine to try to provide "proof" of such an animal.

Your point about chimeras being fused embryos I addressed before you even stated it, but you did not catch it so I again explained it to you. Here it is again if you had two embryos carrying the information for exact opposite phenotypical animals and they combined into a chimera then you could arrive at said conclusion. For example one animal had the phenotypical genitals of a blood and the other had the body and head of a ball they could combine to create the animal we are talking about. There is no rhyme or reason how chimeras combine as every example is different I even provided an example of a woman showing was a chimera in the basic construction I proposed. Even I admitted this is a highly complicated example and probably the least likely.

The second, more interesting proposal in my opinion, is that a snake hybrid could be a case of polyploid speciation. This theory, which is by no mean one of my own, states that two species whose DNA is not compatible can create a hybrid by adding multiple choromsomes at each location. At each location the DNA of like chromosomes is used to create cells in the offspring. This essentially creates an animal that is a mosaic genetic clone of both species. If combined correctly you could actually have an animal that is part genetic ball python and part blood python. This is by no means basic genetics so please don't waste your time trying to use basic genetics to disprove this or making a powerpoint. It is not clear to me how you do not see comments like the powerpoint one as grandstanding. I provided an article that shows polyploid hybridization occurring in fish that you can refer to.

"it is absolutely not possible for an animal like the vet described to exist and I say that with absolute certainty"
"Sure, according to the laws of probability anything is possible."
So which is it, possible or not? As I have said many time I think it is possible just highly unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Kcl

I think the closest thing you could get to something that was genetically ball python in certain parts and blood python in certain parts would have to be dual sired and BOTH a hybrid and a chimera. Chimerism really does have different genetics in different cells, but it's from two fertilized zygotes fusing. Hybridization is via the regular reproductive process so one chromosome of the pair from each, crossing over, etc.

So say you had a blood python mother mated with both a male blood python and a male ball python. Then, there were successfully zygotes from both the blood python mating and the ball python mating at the same time. These two zygotes then successfully fuse to create a chimera. That chimera would be blood/ball in some parts and pure blood python in others. One of these parts could then be the genitals. Of course, I could also buy a lottery ticket but I don't because it's pretty much not gonna happen.

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I think that is another highly unlikely but possible scenario.

I can't read the whole thing right now, but at the very least, the abstract for the below is relevant and interesting:

Diploid-triploid mosaic hybrid in dace (fish).

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1447226...n_tab_contents

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Awe, come on guys, debate nicely. I'm actually getting something out of your conversation.

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My apologies. I accept the rebuke and will endeavor to do better

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I don't know what to tell you, snarkyness begets snarkyness.

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Glad to see you recognize this. Although I am guessing you are contending that I started this… That being the case, I suggest you go back and reread my first post in this thread which was made in an attempt to help and was completely devoid of snark. Then reread your reply to that post wherein you made smart-aleck comments. So if it is a matter of begetting then you are simply reaping what you sowed.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

You telling me how intelligent you are is doing nothing to convince me that it is true

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I never once told you how intelligent I was.

What I did was cautioning you that perhaps you should pause for a moment and realize that the person you are arguing with might know more than you on this topic. In which case it might be wise to not simply dismiss off-hand what they are saying because they might be able to teach you something. Every day I learn something from those with greater knowledge of topics than I myself have on those topics. There is no shame in admitting ignorance on a subject.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I am only saying that an animal that looks like a ball and has what appear to be blood python genitals could exist. My first reply very directly covered every counter point you tried to make including the one where you accused my of not understanding that in simple sexual reproduction genetic material is passed from both parents even after I said several time that is not what I am saying. So again I repeat myself if this is a case of homoploid hybrid than yes genetic information is passed from both parents equally on each chromosome location.

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I did not make the accusation you outline here. This has very little to do with how the genetic information is passed from parent to offspring and much more to do with subsequent parsing and passaging of that genetic information, cell by cell, in the development of the embryo – That is where you seem to be misunderstanding things

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Your point about chimeras being fused embryos I addressed before you even stated it, but you did not catch it so I again explained it to you.

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No, I caught exactly what you said which is why I said you seemed to be confused. And I gave the 60 second correction because I thought you had enough of a grip on the topic to see how I was redirecting you.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Here it is again if you had two embryos carrying the information for exact opposite phenotypical animals and they combined into a chimera then you could arrive at said conclusion. For example one animal had the phenotypical genitals of a blood and the other had the body and head of a ball they could combine to create the animal we are talking about.

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I did not need it again but this just further tells me you are confused. You are describing a chimera event as if it were something like a simple monogenetic morph and you could have a “normal” looking animal that had “Albino” genitals.

That is NOT how chimerism works.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

There is no rhyme or reason how chimeras combine as every example is different

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There actually is some degree of rhyme and reason for how chimera combine when you are talking about the ones in the cases you are trying to use as your argument.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I even provided an example of a woman showing was a chimera in the basic construction I proposed.

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Your argument citing the woman does not support your case though, because, again, you are looking at it the wrong way. Quite simply put, your citation of the woman is irrelevant as an argument because you are trying to compare apples to oranges. Human chimeras are composed of exclusively human genetic material. They are not hybrids. As such, you cannot use these examples as an argumentative basis when the topic at hand is a hybrid.

For your argument to be relevant you would need to be citing an example of some type of human x NHP hybrid, say a gorilla (which, thanks be to ethical scientists, does not exist). Then, you would need to further cite cases of chimerism in such a hybrid.

If we were to reword your argument then so that it fit the above criteria then what you are contending is that it is possible to produce, through a primary specimen breeding of human x gorilla, an offspring that was 100% genetically and phenotypically female human on the outside while being 100% genetically and phenotypically male gorilla on the inside including having testes and penis internally replacing ovaries and uterus.

Or, using apples and oranges to take the argument to an extreme with hyperbole, the human woman chimera you keep citing is an apple/apple mix that is still apple through and through whereas a ball/blood hybrid/chimera would be an apple/orange mix that you are arguing would look exactly like an apple on the outside but actually be an orange inside when you cut it open.

Now, I do not know how anyone could read either of those two statements and NOT think that their conclusions are utterly and ridiculously preposterous. And yet that is exactly what you are trying to argue when you say it is possible to have a ball/blood hybrid/chimera that is a ball on the outside and a blood on the inside. Regardless of the hand-waving you might try, genetics simply does not work that way.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

The second, more interesting proposal in my opinion, is that a snake hybrid could be a case of polyploid speciation. This theory, which is by no mean one of my own, states that two species whose DNA is not compatible can create a hybrid by adding multiple choromsomes at each location. At each location the DNA of like chromosomes is used to create cells in the offspring. This essentially creates an animal that is a mosaic genetic clone of both species. If combined correctly you could actually have an animal that is part genetic ball python and part blood python.

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This is not quite how polyploidy works.

Polyploidy in an imbalance situation is corrected by a whole genome duplication, going from 2n+1 to 4n+2 and thereby allowing for balanced chromosome segregation during subsequent cell division. And while, yes, this does mean there is a single chromosome bias from one of the parents, that does not mean that entire regions of the polyploid hybrid would then revert to only expression of all of the genes from that one parent and no expression from the other parent.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

This is by no means basic genetics so please don't waste your time trying to use basic genetics to disprove this or making a powerpoint. It is not clear to me how you do not see comments like the powerpoint one as grandstanding.

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But it is basic genetics and the PowerPoint, by using pictures -- which I often find are more clear that words alone -- could help to illustrate that. And so, by making comments about how I could make things clearer to understand I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, grandstanding. Despite your accusations to the contrary

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I provided an article that shows polyploid hybridization occurring in fish that you can refer to.

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I never attested that polyploid hybridization did not occur, in fact, I am quite well aware of it occurring. Nor is it particularly relevant to the conversation except in being an interesting read.