Alright, Loki is a PIG!

Well now, I am almost positive that at any time Loki is going to leave me a snake skin presant in his tank. His eyes have cleared up a bit, but I can tell his skin is faiding fast and when the light hits it it looks a bit blue like his eyes did.

Having this in mind, I was supprised to find that he ate today. Not only did he eat, he ate two hoppers. If I am not mistaken, he was looking for a third. I noticed last week when I fed him one hopper he kept looking around after he ate and began exploring like he was hunting, so I decided today to not only try a feed in the shed cycle (Figured what could it hurt, If he ate, so be it, if not I had a pet hopper for another week.) But I also figured after I fed him, I would see if he was interested in another. I read on here if he needed more food he would eat and if not he would not be interested...Well,,, he was interested. Snap, Crunch, Gulp and that was that. Like I said, I almost thaught he wanted another.

Have any of you guys or gals ever had a snake that ate more than two pray items? I know I do not need to go up in size yet, the first hopper that I fed was a bit large, not too large, but I wouldn't feed any bigger.Just wondering, I do not want to over feed if that is possible, but at the same time I want to feed enough. Suggestions?

have a good-en
Ray

Hey Ray congrats on the multiple feeding. Good for Loki! Sounds like you have a winner there!

Baby our 6 month old eats shed or not. We're just going into Punkin's first shed with us so not sure if she/he will take prey or not this Saturday night (maybe shed will be done by then).

I'm no where near qualified to advise you on feeding more than 1 or 2 prey items but I'm sure one of the many experienced people here will chime in shortly.

How big is Loki btw? estimated age?

~~Jo~~

I have no idea how old he is, I also have not gotten a real good measurment on him yet but the best I could do was between 20 and 21 inches long. If that tells you something about his age, please share it with me.. I do not know anything about aging a snake.

Thanks
Ray

All I know is that at 21 inches long, he could easily down an adult mouse or POSSIBLY a weaned rat.. thats assuming he is not malnurished or anything.

My rule I go by is feed them until they are full. After you see how much they can eat ajust your feeding. If Loki is eating two hoppers and still is huntng/looking for more, then it is time to move up to small/medium mice. I just fed my snakes. Cleopatra (Cornsnake) eats two mice every 5 days. King tut (Adult BP) ate 1 jumbo rat and 4 mice ( I need to up his to 1 jumbo rat 1 medium rat) every 7-10 days. Cesar (juvenille BP i'm watching for a friend) ate 4 mice ( He is ready for a 1 medium rat). I have a baby Central American Boa (He is 2 1/2 months old) and I still have not fed him yet, but I plan on his first meal being a small frog/and 2 fuzzy rats then he will not be fed again until he/she (Unsexed) poops. The boa has eaten in store just not at my place. I'm lucky enough to have an abundance of toads in frogs in my area so I catch them during season and place them in a feeding holder. I observe them for 2 weeks then pick the best eaters out of the group and they are snake lunch. I know I know I'm feeding wild caught prey but hey it has worked for years for me.

I'm gonna get myself in trouble here. I don't agree with the feed until they're not hungry thing. You wouldn't do that yourself, or if you did it would still be unhealthy. You need to decide on what a good portion of food would be and deliver that. Now deciding on what is necessary is the hard part. I don't overfeed my dogs and I want to try and apply the same thing to my snakes. (Now my cats are fat lazy things and I can't seem to get them to diet. They just go out and kill themselves some more voles) Anyway, my point being it's not healthy to eat as much as you can. I like to feed something about the same width or slightly smaller than the widest part of the snake. With the max being a small rat once a week. Of course this is just my opinion but it's working well for me. No fasting and good growth.

My ball is about 21 inches long and eats adult mice with out a problem. Actually, you can just barely see the lump after she swallows them.
Two feeding ago after I fed her she looked like she was looking around (like you said) so the last feeding I dropped two in and she didn't hesitate. I think I'm going to alternate 2 one then 1 the next week.

But you should give adult mice a shot.


And tigerlily, doesn't everyone eat till they are full? I mean thats how you know to stop eating....

Have you ever seen a overweight dog? They obviously don't have the higher brain function that says ok I've had enough. They just keep going and going. Until they are fat and their health suffers. And with the percentage of obese people in the US I'd say no that too.

If your ball is eating multiple mice, you can simplify your life by switching to rats. A "small rat" is usually considered the next step up from adult mice.

A ball python can, however, survive on mice for life. Remember though, SURVIVE and THRIVE are two very different things.

I wish there was some kind of ideal meal size formula that could be computed for these guys. For example if your snake weighs 500 grams, an ideal meal would be around 60 grams or something like that (60 grams worth of a rat, a couple of mice, etc).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pumba

but at the same time I want to feed enough.

---

Ray,

Not to worry ... 1 or 2 hoppers a week is fine ... these are animals that have evolved to eat a handful of times a year in the wild ... captive feeding schedules are like heaven to a ball python.

Many years ago I used to stuff my ball pythons full with as much food as I could each week. I like you, never wanted them to be "hungry" .... at the same time I was having problems with snakes "going off feed" and frequently refusing meals after many consecutive weeks of aggressively eating large and jumbo rats until they looked like blimps.

Then, one day, a very wise ball python breeder that had been working with these animals for almost as long as I had been alive showed me the light .... They explained to me that ball pythons have a very slow metabolism and don't need a whole lot of food to thrive .... but, that in their native environment, the food is plentiful for only a portion of the year due to wet/dry cycles, so they are instinctively able to "binge" feed and "fill up" on food when it's available in order to survive the many months of the year when it is not. After that conversation I began to feed my ball pythons much much smaller meals ... even my largest adult females that measure 5+ ft are only offered small rats .... the result is a large collection of ball pythons that feed much more consistently and in my vets opinion are overall healthier. I will be forever grateful for the advice.

-adam

This is what someone told me some time long ago. A dog does not know when its next meal is coming. If they where in the wild they would hunt and eat as much as they could cause they dont know where or when there next meal is going to be. The same thing Dogs cant realize that they have a meal coming the next day no matter what so they over stuff themselves. All we have to do for us is to look in the fridge and say i got enough food to last a week. We dont wonder when our next meal will be coming or any of that cause we all ready know so we dont need to over stuff ourselves and worry about our next meal. Now there is also the factor of exercise and all to tell if your skinny or fat or where you live i dont think any of us are starving but there are people who are this is just a general thing and just focusing on those factors like i said before a lot of other things come into play when it comes to trying to figure out how much is to much. Now you can overfeed from what i read your snake is fine as long as its skin is not showing from under the scales and it can still move around very easily. Now i want to get my snake as big as possible without it being over weight cause i plan on doing some small breeding in a few years.

Tigerlily,
I do not disagree with your statement. Before you try to feed like I do, I think a schedule has to be established. You have to get to know your snakes habits. But I think once you do, feed your snake until it is full. A snake is no where like a dog when it comes to feeding/eating so that is bad comparision. This is based on my adult BP (King Tut). He is a rather large male BP but he is not fat instead rather strong and healthy. I would not ever recommend power feeding/force feeding. I only offer what the snake feels it needs and base its next meal off that. If you notice I'm feeding jumbo rats first then offering mice to fill him up, I don't want the little guy to be malnourished. Also I never will offer my snakes more food until they poop. When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need. I don't care how big my snakes get as long as they are healthy. Here is just another example of what I'm saying. My corn snake is eating 2 mice every five days (thats about her digestion period for her to poop). There was time when she was eating 2 medium/large rats every week but she was also a juvenile and growing. She is now an adult and sheds about every 2-3 months, so she is no longer needing or wanting any excess hence the reason she is now on 2 mice. Do what works for you, as long as your snake is heathly you are not doing anything wrong.

My prevous statement goes for snakes aswell. The factor of metabolism exercise and all that does effect how much they will eat and when. Im just saying that any animal naturally wants the most food they can get cause they dont know when there next meal is going to be like we do. Now i also agree that force feeding and power feeding is wrong and I will never practice it.

O.K. I am a bit confused now, I know that Adam is a breeder, therefore, I must go for experience at this point, NO OFFENCE TO ANYONE<<<<PLEASE>>>>>For I don't know the background of any of the other posts. Having said that. As far as the size of the food I offer Loki, I have seen mice that were smaller than the hopper that I fed him today. Will it make a difference that the hopper was from a rat? I just am not for sure of the terms for food -vs- the species of food. I just went in and asked for two hoppers, and I know they took them out of a tank that also housed a big white rat, that I assumed was the mother. Also, as for the size of the hopper, Loki was able to take down the larger hopper, but it took him probably a good minute (once it was dead) to swallow. The smaller one went right down. The food size does cause a very very slightly noticible lump in his belly, but not too big. The larger hopper seemed to be the same size as his body, of course that was fuzzy fur and all, I am sure his body was a bit smaller. Also, the place I got him was feeding hoppers.

I just don't want to push the size thing, or malnurish him. Everywhere I read in here tells me not to push size and just allow more quantity so that is what I am trying to do.

I do thank all for the advice, it all makes sence to me. SO keepitcomming! I am a sponge, an information Sponge! lol

Cheers
Ray

It will make a difference if it was a rat or mouse. Not particulary for nutrition value but for size value. A hopper mouse will weigh the same as a rat fuzzy. I doubt that it was a rat 'hopper' because I have never heard rats refered to as 'hoppers'....usually the same life stage in rats is refered to as a rat 'pup'.

And I would go with Adam advice on this one too.....thats the way that I also believe things should be handled.

EDIT: Here go to www.rodentpro.com .....click on products and select mice or rats....it gives a great breakdown of sizes, ages, and names of rats and mice.

Dude thanks for the link. Judging by the sight on the mice, What I fed today were more like Weenlings, or weeners, or what ever they were called the next step above hoppers. I suppose these were hoppers that had not been relocated yet but needed to be. They even were drinking and eating onthier own. I know it sounds a bit wierd, but I let them have a little bit of water and a last meal on the way home. Wanted them to be good and plump for Loki......Muhhaaaa!

oh ya....if they were live mice you can easily tell if they are hoppers.....because hoppers tend to hop....ha ha...they jump from anything...so if they were larger and did not hop around....then they were probably weanlings.... Glad to help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

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Forrest,

How do you know specifically how much nutrients a ball python needs? How do you know that 1 small rat or large mouse a week is not enough food for an adult ball python and that everything else it consumes nutrient wise is not just being passed as waste?

Is the statement above just your opinion or do you have some type of direct evidence to back it up?

I certainly respect however you choose to feed your snake, but in my experience, feeding smaller food items does not limit growth in any way and by the way my snakes look, breed, and lay eggs, I'm quite certain that they are not lacking in the nutrient department either.

-adam

Not wierd at all Ray. We are currently just starting to breed our own mice and rats so we still buy feeders weekly from our pet store. We bring them home and put them in a cage and feed and water the heck out of them for 2 sometimes 3 days. I figure coming out of a large feeder group in the pet store they've had to struggle to get enough so a few days of good eats at my house only makes a nicer meal for our balls.

Our 6 month old is about 25 inches long, our 18 month old is only a few inches longer (but has been consistently underfed). They both eat adult mice either 1 or 2 every Saturday night. These are not huge adult mice tho or retired breeders (which are even bigger apparently). These are just young adult feeders that don't leave a huge bump in the snake and are consumed easily and relatively quickly or in poor Punkin's case....gulped down rapidly (poor hungry baby).

I'm not experienced enough to comment on mice vs rats or when over-feeding/under-feeding occurs other than to say that feeding what you can get consistently and of a high quality in your community and that your snake will show a strong and regular feeding response to is what I'd go with. If you have a content snake that is shedding and growing as it should and ready to eat each week then I personally think that's pretty fine. Adam's stated many times he has adults that are both rat feeders and mice feeders and they do equally well and you just can't argue with success I figure.

My only question after reading this thread is about not feeding until they poop first? My balls don't always pass feces between weekly feedings and I've never worried about it much as they eventually do poop with no apparent troubles (and it's often a whopper!). Am I doing something wrong here in my newbie-hood?


~~Joanna~~

By no means have I ever been concerned about limiting food until they poop. Mine go every 3 weeks or so, but if it had been like 2 months I might try a soak if I was concerned about constipation. I don't see a correlation there. Of course that's just me too. :D

Forrest I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think I'm in any way limiting my snake's growth. I do regular weight and length checks and I am very happy with the gains. I'm glad that works for you but it seems excessive feeding to me. But I'm no expert either so.... :weirdface

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

My only question after reading this thread is about not feeding until they poop first? My balls don't always pass feces between weekly feedings and I've never worried about it much as they eventually do poop with no apparent troubles (and it's often a whopper!). Am I doing something wrong here in my newbie-hood?

---

Not at all .... All of my snakes are offered food every single Monday ... poop or no poop .... I don't even record defications.

Although, if you were stuffing them as full as you can when you feed, I would think that waiting until they passed stool before the next feeding is a pretty good idea.

-adam

Adam,
I myself am not an expert nor do I claim to be one so I do not know his specific requirements. My BP (King tut) instintively does know. He does have his own feed cycles which I have and do document. I know that in late winter/early spring (Febuary-April) he really is not interested in eating. He will usually eat maybe 4-5 mice during this entire period. Once the month of May hits he is ready to go back on schedule and will start to eat large/jumbo rats again (around every 7-10 days{His digestion period}). Late Summer early Autum (July-mid September) he eats like a pig (Usually around 1 jumbo rat plus excess amounts of mice). Through mid September-January he really calms down his eating. He starts to eat around 1 small/medium sized rat every digestion cycle. He will refuse any excess (Usually). Keep in mind I don't feed him during his shed cycles year round. The only time I will disturb him during this period is for normal cage maitenance. I monitor all of his poop and urates (sic). I know that they all are about the same size, texture, smell, and quantity each time. Thus I will have to assume from all the data I have collected and present my theory.: Yes I do believe my snake does know it nutrient requirements. No I don't think there is a difference between nutrients in mice or rats. I do believe feed your snake as much as it desires as long as your snake is and stays healthy. If I have offended anyone I do apalogize I am not here to make anyone feel ackward. I truly do have a love for all things Herp and want to share my experiances to better educate. I in return ask the same from everyone on this site. If you feel I am wrong call me on it, I'm not perfect but I do try to be and critism(sic) certainly does help find my faults.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

Adam,
I myself am not an expert nor do I claim to be one so I do not know his specific requirements. My BP (King tut) instintively does know. He does have his own feed cycles which I have and do document. I know that in late winter/early spring (Febuary-April) he really is not interested in eating. He will usually eat maybe 4-5 mice during this entire period. Once the month of May hits he is ready to go back on schedule and will start to eat large/jumbo rats again (around every 7-10 days{His digestion period}). Late Summer early Autum (July-mid September) he eats like a pig (Usually around 1 jumbo rat plus excess amounts of mice). Through mid September-January he really calms down his eating. He starts to eat around 1 small/medium sized rat every digestion cycle. He will refuse any excess (Usually). Keep in mind I don't feed him during his shed cycles year round. The only time I will disturb him during this period is for normal cage maitenance. I monitor all of his poop and urates (sic). I know that they all are about the same size, texture, smell, and quantity each time. Thus I will have to assume from all the data I have collected and present my theory.: Yes I do believe my snake does know it nutrient requirements. No I don't think there is a difference between nutrients in mice or rats. I do believe feed your snake as much as it desires as long as your snake is and stays healthy. If I have offended anyone I do apalogize I am not here to make anyone feel ackward. I truly do have a love for all things Herp and want to share my experiances to better educate. I in return ask the same from everyone on this site. If you feel I am wrong call me on it, I'm not perfect but I do try to be and critism(sic) certainly does help find my faults.

---

So, since my snakes are eating less food at each individual feeding but eating many more times a year than your ball python, who's to say that they are getting less nutrients? Couldn't it be that in the end, each year, our snakes are getting what they need even with our two dramatically differenet feeding styles?

My problem certainly isn't with your feeding style ... I couldn't care less how you feed your snake .... my problem was with your statement that inferred that people that don't feed the way you do are denying their snakes nutrients that they need and inhibiting their growth. In my experience, that's just not true.

-adam

Thanks Adam for the response, I wasn't particularily worried about it, just wondering. As you know we follow the same system here.....Saturday night is feeding night come hell or high water LOL. I'd pick another night but you all know I have no social life so snake feeding is kinda the highlight of the weekend around here :D

Well that and taking bets on how long it will take our 14 year old son to make our 12 year old daughter run to her room screaming I HATE YOU, YOU FREAK! (current record is 2.3 minutes but he really was on his game that night :P )


~~Jo~~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well that and taking bets on how long it will take our 14 year old son to make our 12 year old daughter run to her room screaming I HATE YOU, YOU FREAK! (current record is 2.3 minutes but he really was on his game that night :P )


~~Jo~~

---

I get in trouble if i even attempt to do that.

LOL Well I didn't say he didn't get in trouble now did I and most of the time his sisters have been busy pushing his buttons (girls are sneaky that way).

When you have 4 of the lil boogerheads errrrrr children you just get to the point where if no one is bleeding or will require long term psycho-therapy later in life, you figure it'll work itself out - mostly w/o your interference.

Also keep in mind 2 of them are now taller than me and the 12 year old isn't far behind so I have to be nice to them or no one will reach me the stuff in the high cupboards LOL!!!


~~Joanna~~

Im 15 and the oldest. My brother is 13 and is autistic and my sister is 7 and has way to much energy. Most of the trouble is caused by me though. As for helping you out my mom always says if you wont help me then no food and tv and the list goes on and on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So, since my snakes are eating less food at each individual feeding but eating many more times a year than your ball python, who's to say that they are getting less nutrients? Couldn't it be that in the end, each year, our snakes are getting what they need even with our two dramatically differenet feeding styles?

My problem certainly isn't with your feeding style ... I couldn't care less how you feed your snake .... my problem was with your statement that inferred that people that don't feed the way you do are denying their snakes nutrients that they need and inhibiting their growth. In my experience, that's just not true.

-adam

---

O.K. O.K. O.K,,,,dang I didn't mean to stur up a hornets nest, Sorry you guys... Dang....

By the way, I do thank all in here for their opinions, experience, and help with my problems.


Thanks abunch
Ray

Adam,
You and I both have different feeding preferences agreed? I have never stated that any other persons feeding style is not right. In fact I have always stated that if that works for you keep it up (Go ahead and check all of my previous post). I said if you don't feed them until they are full you could be denying nutrients. That is a true statement (check with vet friend on this one). Every living thing requires a fuel (water, ect.ect.ect.)to live. I'm just giving him the fuel he desires and yes it is working extremely well for me. As far as the amount of food my snake is receiving compared to yours I think they adjust to be about the same amount in a year. Yours is routine, my is spread out. They both work. P.S. I do like to hear your input on these things, your the first person who has ever questioned my methods, then again we both have never seen each others results. Happy Herping

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

I said if you don't feed them until they are full you could be denying nutrients.

---

Not to split hairs, but actually you said ....

Quote:

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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

---

---

... there's big difference the way I see it. Stated one way, it's opinion, stated the other it's fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

That is a true statement

---

Sure, the revised statement may be true, but your original statement that I took issue with is false. If there was a study that says the nutrients in one small rat isn't enough to sustain a ball python for 7 days I might agree with you. Unfortunately, there isn't a study the even comes close to saying anything of the kind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

(check with vet friend on this one).

---

Actually, I have spoken with many veterinarians about all aspects of the captive husbandry of ball pythons and almost all agree that p. regius more than any other species most likely benefit from a diet of smaller more infrequent meals than other python and boa species. I also speak regularly with breeders that maintain some of the largest collections of ball pythons in the world ... some with 1000+ balls in their care .... in my opinion these experts posses even a greater understanding of the needs of ball pythons than your average veterinarian. Again, almost all of the large scale ball python breeders I've spoken with maintain their colonies on smaller more frequent feedings than stuffing their snakes with as much as they can eat a couple of times a year.

I have no problem at all with how you feed your snakes, like I said, I couldn't care less ... What I am more than a little uncomfortable with is the way you present your opinions on the nutritional requirements of ball pythons as if they were fact.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well that and taking bets on how long it will take our 14 year old son to make our 12 year old daughter run to her room screaming I HATE YOU, YOU FREAK! (current record is 2.3 minutes but he really was on his game that night :P )


~~Jo~~

---

OMG....breathe, Robin....breathe.....that was too funny!

I don't have a social life either, maybe I will make mine Saturday night too.

And I've just been offered a nice work at home job with a former employer of mine, that's about 10K more than I'm making now, so I'll have even less of a social life. My DBF is stoked, because someone will be home with the dog all day (he worries to death over her being at home alone while we're at work, and not getting to go outside until we get home...she never has accidents, he just thinks she needs more mental stimulation! LOL).

Fingers crossed that this job pans out (it's with Nortel Networks). I was broken hearted when I was part of their huge layoffs in 2001 and was so excited to get an e-mail from my former boss. She's negotiating with herself and has no idea that I'd take her first offer, but each e-mail the starting salary keeps going up....my lips are zipped! LOL

OK, how the heck did I get off on this tangent. Guess I'm giddy with excitement! More time to be home and obsessively monitor Kash's temps and humidity! LOL

Robin

Robin good luck getting the job. That sounds awesome! :D

My son is only 5 and is already starting his own mini army. He is using his little sister and cousin as his own personal evil minions. *My son* - you jump up and down, you say I want to be tickled, and on and on and on..... :rolleyes: He likes to tell them what to say and do. Ugh, I'm in trouble!!! :eek:

Oh Robin good luck on getting that new job. How nice to be able to work from home! Wit! I work from home but ain't nobody offering me 10K more a year to clean up after their lazy butts LOL *ponders a strike if I can ever locate any paper or markers to make appropriate signage*

Oh Christie my younger daughter (of the screaming FREAKS thing) just aches for her own evil minions. She tries to enlist the 4 year old brother but he just gets disgusted and refers to her as "THAT girl". I know she'd prefer to be known as "Elizabeth, Queen of the World"....we like to call her "Hoss da Boss". The emotional fireworks are something to be seen let me tell ya!

Children are a treasure (and a really cheap source of amusement on occasion :P )


~~Joanna~~

I definitely agree with the really cheap source of amusement. Unfortunately my daughter is a deep and vast source. I once told my son just to pee on the bushes, since he'd just gotten out to of the pool (and I didn't want him tracking water through the house). Now my daughter wants to do it, so she strips naked squats in the grass and is just so proud of herself. :rolleyes: I think this qualifies me for the redneck status in the other thread. :lmao: LOL!! ;)

Adam,
I'm not baseing anything I have said on opinion. I have based it on my notes that I have taken over the years. You have yet to offer any information other than hearsay. I will agree with you that I think breeders do know more than your average vet, especially one than carries 1000+ balls. That is where my data and breeders data will conflict. I base my information on 1 BP in particular where a breeder's info is based on colonies ( established 2nd and 3rd generations and so on). Also I know you have documentation,because I do beleive you are a good breeder a reputable one at that. Just give me some data so I will shut up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

I have based it on my notes that I have taken over the years.

---

You have notes on the intake and usage of nutrients by your ball python? What method did you use to measure the amounts of calcium, potassium, zinc, phosphorus, etc in both the rodents and your snakes stool?

Making the leap from .... "my snake will eat a lot of food at one sitting so that's how I feed it" to "because my snake eats this way, if you don't fill your snake up it will not get the nutrients it needs and it's growth will be limited" is not science, it's opinion. There is no measure, survey, or control taken in your methods, just your observation ... you feed your snake the way you do and I believe you when you say it's healthy, but unless you feed a ball python the way I do as a control, how can you claim as a fact that ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

---

Because you don't feed your snake smaller meals, you have no basis in either experience or science to make that statement ... therefore it is just your opinion.

I'm not sure what "data" I have that you want .... Depending on the time of year, I feed anywhere from 140 - 200+ ball pythons each week ... they get what I believe is an appropriately sized food item ... some get multiples, most do not ... I have some yearling females that are over 1,300 grams and I also have siblings to those females that are at 600 grams all fed on the same schedule .... I have older adult females that weigh in over 4,000 grams .... all of my snakes are healthy and individually checked by a vet at least once a year. They shed, eat, drink, and breed exceptionally well and many of my adults are very very large. I keep meticulously detailed records on all aspects of their husbandry and have data for many of my animals dating back almost 10 years.

I don't see how the burden is on me to offer any information .... I am not the one making false claims .... it was you that stated ....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

---

If I had said something to the effect of "allowing your ball python to consume large quantities of food at a single feeding can be hazardous to their long-term health because their digestive system has to work extra hard to process the excess minerals and compounds and convert them into waste", I would be making a claim that I would then need to back up .... But, I never said anything close ... I just pointed out that your statement ....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

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.... is nothing but opinion unless you present empirical evidence to the contrary.

Forrest, I don't want you to shut up. You have as much right to post here as me or anyone and I actually enjoy reading your posts for the most part .... Like I said, I am just uncomfortable with you stating ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

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... as fact.

-adam

I've been sitting back watching this, and no offense to Forrest, but I'm going to have to go with Adam on this one.


I agree that data on one snake does not statistically back up what Adam quoted from you in the above post.

Adam's been at this game with a lot more than one snake, and I think he has a valid point.

Hay, on a lighter note, Loki has gained 16 grams since I got him! Just put him on the scale today, 3 weeks exactly to the hour since I got him and the same amount of days after a meal. I like it. I like it alot. I also think that I may have had a false alarm on the shead thing, nothing has changed. I think I was just getting glare from the light when I saw the blue. At any rate, I lowered the humidity in my tank back to around 55% but left in a humid hide just incase.

How does that sound? Or am I making a mistake?

Thanks
Ray

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pumba

Hay, on a lighter note, Loki has gained 16 grams since I got him! Just put him on the scale today, 3 weeks exactly to the hour since I got him and the same amount of days after a meal. I like it. I like it alot. I also think that I may have had a false alarm on the shead thing, nothing has changed. I think I was just getting glare from the light when I saw the blue. At any rate, I lowered the humidity in my tank back to around 55% but left in a humid hide just incase.

How does that sound? Or am I making a mistake?

Thanks
Ray

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OMG Ray, HUGE mistake....HUGE!!! ...... Just Kidding! Heck if I know! In fact, I may actually learn something here....waiting for someone with more knowledge to answer you!

Ms. I have the late night goofiness!

That was WRONG! lol.... I almost jumped up and ran to the tank and made measures to correct what Ihave done, without reading the rest of your post. That was just WRONG!!!!,, but it was a good one..(Grin)

I know Ray, I know! I just couldn't help myself! Sorry for the scare! I have a wee bit of an evil side! Bwahahahaha! LOL

Hehehehe good one Robin! Ray don't forget tho that when most balls shed they do that blue eyed, dull scale looking thing then suddenly look pretty much back to normal, then they actually shed. I think it's about a 5 to 7 day process if memory serves (if I'm wrong somebody pls correct me) so maybe Loki is shedding, maybe not. Glad to hear about that weight gain, that's super! Our 6 month old when through a few really fast sheds when she/he started putting on weight.


~~Jo~~