Opinions on my first pairing

Hello my fellow ball enthusiast. Just recently I have been attempting my first pairing, Pied x Kingpin. I have been digging deeper into what would be reasonable asking prices for the offspring if and when they come. It has come to my attention that this is not a very common pairing, so I am beginning to question how desirable the babies may be. In my head I think it is an interesting pairing, because I have my own plans I am not necessarily ready to share, but also the fact that anything lesser het pied could be capable of producing both black eyed and blue eyed luecistics. I figured I might ask the community itself what their feelings about this pairing are and if they feel the offspring may be desirable even though they may only be single incomplete dominants het pied. Please be honest, as long as your critique is done respectfully I will be appreciative regardless of your position.

I posted this pretty late so I hope it is OK if I give this a mourning bumb.

Please forgive what may be an obvious question, but what makes up a kingpin?

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Please forgive what may be an obvious question, but what makes up a kingpin?

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lesser pinstripe

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

lesser pinstripe

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Thank you tttaylorrr, that's what I thought, but I'm definitely still learning my morphs...

Here is my 2 cents. There are a couple ways to approach what to breed.

1. You can produce things that the "general public" finds attractive. These may or may not be things that you personally like.
2. You can produce "tool boxes" which is my focus at this stage in the game. The actual animal may not be attractive. Take the little guy on the left. To me he is a little bit of a washed out mess, but he has the best of my phantom, mojave, and pinstripe genes. He was not created to be sold. He can be put to single gene females and make beautiful stuff.
3. You can breed to make something different, like the "Red" thing that was posted yesterday. Animals like things can catch on or they may only stay popular until there are a lot of them because at that point they are no longer different.

As far a pricing goes, you can make guesses but I would never assume that you will make a certain amount. At best, I know the minimum price I can get for something because I generally wholesale to the same place every time. This amount is way lower than anything you see on Morph Market. The other thing is you have to realize that no one knows you. You start out with zero reputation. I have a good rep in my own little world, but no one in the public domain knows me from anyone else. I have a real job and I have to focus on where the real money comes from. You need to consider this when you are trying to figure out what you are going to charge. You for example could order from me or Garrick. I would expect that Garrick would get more for the exact same animal since he has spent years building his business and I am just a guy with an expensive hobby even if the quality of my product is high.

I know I did not answer your question directly, but I hope I gave you some things to consider that will help you establish a formula on your own.

So you're going to get Normals, Lessers, Pinstripes, and more Kingpins, all of them 100% het for Pied (unless the Kingpin is het Pied as well) Those are extremely common dom and co dom genes, but they're also very utility. I don't expect you're going to be moving the hatchling out fast, but someone will always find use for hets in a project.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

also the fact that anything lesser het pied could be capable of producing both black eyed and blue eyed luecistics.

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Umm how exactly do you think to make black eyed luecistics out of this combination. Black eyed luecistics are super fire. Or super sulfur. You can make a pied blue eyed luecistic. But you would not ever know that it was pied as it would be totally white

Definitely your status as being known, well known, and your reputation for producucing quality animals will play into your success. Also, anything that is 100% het pied will have a better chance of being sold, or traded for. Especially if you have photo documentation of the parents locked, offer a guarantee, and consider paperwork or certificate of guarantee. These things will be important to some potential customers. I think almost anything with piebald in it is attractive to quite a few people.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

the fact that anything lesser het pied could be capable of producing both black eyed and blue eyed luecistics.

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Originally Posted by StillBP

Umm how exactly do you think to make black eyed luecistics out of this combination. Black eyed luecistics are super fire. Or super sulfur. You can make a pied blue eyed luecistic. But you would not ever know that it was pied as it would be totally white

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most Lesser Pieds and Super Lesser Pieds are all white with black eyes/red pupils and the term is kinda used loosely here i guess. here's my girl Ruby. :)

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2FTBxXZE9.jpg

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Originally Posted by StillBP

Umm how exactly do you think to make black eyed luecistics out of this combination. Black eyed luecistics are super fire. Or super sulfur. You can make a pied blue eyed luecistic. But you would not ever know that it was pied as it would be totally white

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Actually a black eyed luecistic is any animal that is completely white with black eyes. The term luecistic just refers to lacking all pigment regardless of the gene that causes it. A certain percentage of lesser pieds are all white with black eyes. In fact they are reported to be even more white than most incomplete dominant luecisticso, and have less genetic disorders. I would bet you would be able to identify a bel pied under black Light.

Thanks for your input Jordan, while not directly on topic it is still very useful to me. I am definitely trying to become acquainted with the local market, but it is rather small compared to other areas of similar size.

Also thanks lizardlicks and Albert, this gives me more confidence in producing some hets.

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Originally Posted by Ax01

most Lesser Pieds and Super Lesser Pieds are all white with black eyes/red pupils and the term is kinda used loosely here i guess. here's my girl Ruby. :)

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2FTBxXZE9.jpg

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?????Super Lesser anything with black eyes???? I would not have expected that??????

Is the pied male or female? If it's a female I wouldn't move forward with that pairing, I would seek out a male pied combo. If the pied is male I'd be okay with that pairing. In my opinion, a pied female is too valuable to be used to make those hets at this point.

I agree with you Dave, but the female is the kingpin and male is the pied. She is also the only female I have of breeding size.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

?????Super Lesser anything with black eyes???? I would not have expected that??????

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has any one produced a Super Mojo Pied? i wonder if the Pied gene turns the eyes of Blue Eye Lucy's black/red. :confusd:

I don't know, if any was has, they'd have to have taken the time to prove it out most likely. It's a really good question though!

I found this interesting picture of a supposed super lesser pied that shows clear differences in white coloration, unfortunately it does not show the eyes.
http://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rept...-pythons/43478

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Actually a black eyed luecistic is any animal that is completely white with black eyes. The term luecistic just refers to lacking all pigment regardless of the gene that causes it. A certain percentage of lesser pieds are all white with black eyes. .

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I know that lesser pied can be all white. But saying a luecistic is any all white animal is like saying all snakes are the same. You can have a all white pied. I have seen this. No color and it is only pied no other genetics. It is not a black eyed luecy. It is a pied. Also lesser pied are not always all white.

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Originally Posted by StillBP

I know that lesser pied can be all white. But saying a luecistic is any all white animal is like saying all snakes are the same. You can have a all white pied. I have seen this. No color and it is only pied no other genetics. It is not a black eyed luecy. It is a pied. Also lesser pied are not always all white.

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The definition of luecistic is lacking any pigment, which is true of a all white snake. I would even argue that a super fire that has yellow spots is not truly luecistic. The term is not a hobby term and has nothing to do with particular genes but the lack of pigment in an animal. When I said that a percentage of lesser pied are all white it was an acknowledgment that not all are all white.

Leucism (/ˈljuːkɪzəm/;[1] or /ˈluːsɪzəm/[2][3]) is a condition in which there is partial loss of pigmentation in an animal resulting in white, pale, or patchy coloration of the skin, hair, feathers, scales or cuticle, but not the eyes.[1] Unlike albinism, it is caused by a reduction in multiple types of pigment, not just melanin.

If you are using this terminology you can argue that pied, ghosts and several other morphs are intact luecistics. And that super Mojave and lesser aren't And be technically correct. This is where confusion in this hobby comes from. Terms being added that are not what they should be. To me a lesser pied is a lesser pied and a black eyed luecistic is super fire because that is the terms this hobby uses. You can call it whatever you want but if you do choose to sell any make sure that your buyer knows exactly what genetics made what you sell. Not chastising just most people call a super fire a black eyed luecy and a lesser pied a lesser pied.

Piebald is a form of luecism, but hypo is just a reduction in melanistic so not luecism. I believe the direct meaning of the root luec is white. In my opinion a super fire is a super fire and a lesser pied is a lesser pied, and they both are black eyed luecistic. This was not the original intent of this thread, so if you have opinions on the my original question not having to do with semantics I would like to hear it.

Actually I think this is a great first pairing! Especially since your male is the pied. You can keep all the female hets and breed them back to the male, then you'll end up with a bunch of pieds and you can ditch all the hets at that point. I'm actually at a point where I'm looking to stop buying snakes for my breeding projects and just make my own with what I have. I'm also breeding my very first pair this year, actually my female is full of eggs and she just shed today, I'm counting down the days until she lays, should be 30 days! Then another 60 before they hatch.

Also you may have a Kinpin that's het for pied already and not even know it, that's what I'm hoping for as well. You will get 100% hets, then 50% hets, then possible hets, then as people breed the possibilities are not even mentioned although they may still be there...

Here's the odds for your first pairing:

Percent	Fraction	Genes
25 %	1/4	Het Piebald
25 %	1/4	Pinstripe (pin) Het Piebald
25 %	1/4	Lesser (Lesser Platinum) Het Piebald
25 %	1/4	Kingpin (Lesser Pinstripe) Het Piebald

And if you breed back a Kinpin het pied you'll get these odds, it's actually pretty good. You'll get Pieds, Pinstripe Pieds, Lesser Pieds, and Kinpin Pieds (50% will be pieds). From what I've seen no one has ever produced a Kinpin Pied, it may be the worlds first!

12.5 %	1/8	Het Piebald
12.5 %	1/8	Piebald (pied)
12.5 %	1/8	Pinstripe (pin) Het Piebald
12.5 %	1/8	Lesser (Lesser Platinum) Het Piebald
12.5 %	1/8	Pied Pin (Pin Pied, Pinstripe Pied)
12.5 %	1/8	Lesser Pied
12.5 %	1/8	Kingpin (Lesser Pinstripe) Het Piebald
12.5 %	1/8	Lesser (Lesser Platinum) Piebald (pied) Pinstripe (pin)

Personally I wouldn't worry about how desirable the babies would be on the first few pairings, if you price them low enough they will sell, and you won't have very many to start. As you progress into more exotic combos they will be more and more desirable. Prices are tough as well, I've seen some hold their value over a couple years, some will drop 50% in less than a year. It comes down to supply and demand and how much people undercut each other. I'm actually working with some pied combos that run about $600 on Morphmarket, but they all sell out as soon as they are posted. I know I can raise the price and sell them, maybe even double the price since the supply is limited and the demand is high. Lots of people are so concerned about cutting the lowest price out there they don't even stop to consider supply and demand logistics and the thought that prices can be increased in some cases, sometimes significantly increased. I actually had to wait a full year to get my pied combo and I jumped on it super fast, and within a week they were all sold out again.

Thanks Chadwick, you covered a lot of information. I definitely intend to breed for some high quality animals to keep as breeders. It is great to get some advice from a fellow Coloradan.

Sure I'll give my opinion on desirability. I first will assume that you are keeping the morph het pied females. And selling males.
Het pied male are very hard to find homes for ( most of mine go to a local pet store as norrmals). Pin het pied male. Obviously easier to move as it is a 2 gene animal and pin pied is a popular combo. Lesser het pied not as popular as a pin pied but you can sell them because lesser is still a popular base morph kingpin het pied do a easy sell it is a 3 gene animal and people will want it just for it's potential. The only thing that you will have issues with are the normal het pied males. I suggest that you find a mom and pop pet shop and those sell to them as normals

Unfortunately in my state there was a recent change where an old agency, PACFA, began regulating reptile breeding. The stores can only buy from registered breeders, which is a $300 dollar license. It is not worth the money if I am only producing one clutch. They allow hobbiest to sell at expos under the expos license. They do not control out of state sales. I am aware het pied males don't fetch much, really I intend to give them away as free gifts with the purchase of other snakes. Hopefully the odds are with me and there are no normals.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Unfortunately in my state there was a recent change where an old agency, PACFA, began regulating reptile breeding. The stores can only buy from registered breeders, which is a $300 dollar license. It is not worth the money if I am only producing one clutch. They allow hobbiest to sell at expos under the expos license.

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Typical politics. Take something simple and complicate it.
Well. In that case I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

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Originally Posted by StillBP

Typical politics. Take something simple and complicate it.
Well. In that case I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

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I mean the oversight was definitely needed. I am sure I will be fine.

#1 don't try to sell your hatchlings before they actually hatch, I know it's an exiting time but it does not mean you will produce viable eggs and if you do many things can happen including the fact that you might produced and entire clutch of nothing more than Het Pieds.

Pricing is a combination of several factors supply and demand will affect the price at the time of production so will sex, your name and reputation will as well, if you do not have an established reputation and come out of nowhere selling hets will be difficult so while breeder A might commend higher price, you might not.

Usually I don't start pricing my animals before they hatch and feed for me at least 3 times, at that point I do some research on similar animals and calculate the average and base my price on that, does that mean that the animal will sell for that, not always but over the years I have had no issue selling animals at my asking price.

Now the reason not many work with this type of pairing is because people would rather stay away from Lesser Pied projects due to the tendency of those to have small eyes, which is why people not likely spend the extra money for a lesser or kingpin het pied if they do not intend to use them to their full potential.

People who intend to breed are educating themselves asking breeders if they would do such and such pairing and a lot of breeder are honest about it, and as far as the average pet owner they will not care if their animal is het pied.

As to how I feel about the whole Lesser Pied project or the possibilities of Lesser combos Het Pied well I personally have no interest, I have some Lesser combos possible het pied (the sire was CG Leopard DH Hypo Pied and I was interested in the Hypo potential in the pairing I made) however I will never try to prove those animals by pairing them to a Pied.

Thank you Deborah. I am fully aware of the potential genetic odds and many other reasons I may not end up with desirable results. The reason I am looking at prices is so that I have an idea what is reasonable and am not rushing things at the end of the line. The small eye thing seems to be not well understood but seems to have little effect on the animals. If you know more about it, I would be interested to hear it. To me it seems like less of an issue than say the spider wobble.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Thank you Deborah. I am fully aware of the potential genetic odds and many other reasons I may not end up with desirable results. The reason I am looking at prices is so that I have an idea what is reasonable and am not rushing things at the end of the line. The small eye thing seems to be not well understood but seems to have little effect on the animals. If you know more about it, I would be interested to hear it. To me it seems like less of an issue than say the spider wobble.

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Small eyes like bug eyes in super lesser are purely cosmetic with no health issue associated with them however in a business where people strive to produce cosmetically beautiful mutations it's a draw back for many just like neurological issues with gene such as spiders as become as of late a draw back for people as well.

Ultimately there is something out there for everyone.

Ok, now I see what you were getting at.