Maybe an uncomfortable question, but....

What happens to all these snakes?

I've watched many YouTube videos of people with extensive collections of ball pythons living in rack systems and talking about how they want to breed them. In the wild most of the hatchlings would never see adulthood, but in captivity, chances are most survive. These animals live for up to 30 years, sometimes more. So it begs the question, where are all these snakes going? Can there really be so many people that want to maintain such huge numbers of these reptiles?

I've even seen examples of people breeding retics and burmese, which seems like utter madness. I'm not saying that people shouldn't keep such animals. There are people on this forum whose opinions I respect that keep them and I deeply admire that skill and dedication. But those are very rare qualities. Which kind goes back to my point.

I sincerely hope that as a novice I'm missing something.

The pet industry and the reptile industry in particular keeps growing there is a larger and larger demand each year and animal are sold, the demand is so large for BP that CH are still imported each year to fulfill the demand.

This isn't something that seems to be discussed very often so I'm glad you brought it up. I'm really interested to see others opinions on this topic. Especially the part about retics. Burms, at least in the US, should be getting produced in lower numbers since there is a ban on transport between states.

I've seen the same question asked about aquarium fish, and parrots too. Macaws, cockatoos, greys - they have human life spans! Just how many of these high maintenance birds can the bird fancying public realistically absorb and care for? 'Toos are beautiful, but it is the rare person who proves they can put up with one long term. Like the giant snakes, they are generally very hard animals to live with.

I've also wondered the same about tortoises. Again, something like a hundred year lifespan. They fascinate me, but even a small Hermman's needs a big (as in 8X4 foot tortoise table, with heat, and UVB. Not a cheap pet! At least the snakes can be stashed in a rack.

I know of only one other person (a local science teacher) who also keeps snakes. In my social circles, they are generally seen an an ...uhmm, unusual pet choice. In general, I think snakes are less likely to be impulse buys than the pretty birds, and the more striking fish, like oscars. The show scene, however, may be different. I've never attended a reptile show.

So back to the original question: where do they end up? I hate to think about it.

The answer is in the market itself. If there was really an overproduction the prices would make breeding unprofitable and people would stop breeding as much.

I get that there is always a market for cute babies. There is rarely much of a market for the cast off adults, and it doesn't matter if we are talking about dogs or burms. I used to work at our local animal shelter. Probably nine out of ten of the incoming animals were eventually euthanized (sp.?). We couldn't even find homes for the kittens.

I think the snakes overall have it better than other animals we keep in captivity, and (unlike cats) unintended breedings don't just happen with them. That's a plus, they are all wanted, at least initially.

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Originally Posted by kxr

This isn't something that seems to be discussed very often so I'm glad you brought it up. I'm really interested to see others opinions on this topic. Especially the part about retics. Burms, at least in the US, should be getting produced in lower numbers since there is a ban on transport between states.

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I'm very interested in this as well. You look at how many some the larger breeders are pumping out and wonder where the demand for so many of them comes from. You hear them talk producing huge amounts of hatchlings per season. I didn't know there was such a high demand for retics. I asked a local breeder about this once and he told me that he sells lots of ball pythons in bulk to wholesale dealers. Pretty much anything that doesn't go up on his website goes to a wholesale dealer.

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Originally Posted by cletus

I'm very interested in this as well. You look at how many some the larger breeders are pumping out and wonder where the demand for so many of them comes from. You hear them talk producing huge amounts of hatchlings per season. I didn't know there was such a high demand for retics. I asked a local breeder about this once and he told me that he sells lots of ball pythons in bulk to wholesale dealers. Pretty much anything that doesn't go up on his website goes to a wholesale dealer.

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Yeah, from what I've heard most of the single gene animals and even some of the double/triple gene codoms are given to a wholesale dealers. I know this is an unpopular opinion but logically and economically it makes sense as the breeders producing hundreds or even high tens of clutches might not have the time or rats to feed all those excess babies. It's better to stick to the animals with a higher return so that they can make a higher profit with their time and money invested and continue to breed full time or close to full time.

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Originally Posted by kxr

Yeah, from what I've heard most of the single gene animals and even some of the double/triple gene codoms are given to a wholesale dealers. I know this is an unpopular opinion but logically and economically it makes sense as the breeders producing hundreds or even high tens of clutches might not have the time or rats to feed all those excess babies. It's better to stick to the animals with a higher return so that they can make a higher profit with their time and money invested and continue to breed full time or close to full time.

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And then, where do they go? Petco?
We know what that looks like.
I think it's sad.

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Originally Posted by distaff

And then, where do they go? Petco?
We know what that looks like.
I think it's sad.

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That is exactly where I would suspect many end up. And it is sad.

I wonder very much about the adults as well. Lots of things can happy to a person over twenty or thirty years (often even less as we all know). It doesn't take much imagination to see a rack of pythons becoming a serious inconvenience. What is the market for adults?

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

That is exactly where I would suspect many end up. And it is sad.

I wonder very much about the adults as well. Lots of things can happy to a person over twenty or thirty years (often even less as we all know). It doesn't take much imagination to see a rack of pythons becoming a serious inconvenience. What is the market for adults?

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The demand for adult females will always be there it seems, even for wild type. Single gene morph males and wild type are much harder to sell. The main question I wonder about is how many of these less expensive babies actually make it past the first year?

They go where the market dictates. Some become pets or breeders. Others die or become feeders.

I was hesitant to ask because I was afraid that some people may take the question the wrong way. I'm glad to see that nobody has. This is an unusual corner of the internet where people act maturely and address each other with respect. What a breath of fresh air! I hope it stays this way.

However, I think this is an important question to address. If one is going to take on the responsibility of caring for an animal for 30 + years, it behooves one to consider what would happen to the animal if something should happen to oneself.

There will always be more domestic/pet animals produced than competent, compassionate people to care for them appropriately. There will always be people who purchase pets without being willing or able to make a commitment to care for them for their whole lifespan. There will always be people who impulsively purchase animals without doing their due diligence on the care that animal requires to thrive.

Sometimes the animals who belong to those people die from neglect or ignorant care.

That's true of snakes, reptiles, birds, other exotics, and even 'common' domestics like cats, dogs, and rodents.

That's why animal welfare, rescue, and rehab for domestic and pet animals is so important. If you feel sad or uncomfortable about all the 'extra' snakes getting wholesaled to Petco and going home with people who don't understand how to care for them, then do something about it. Get involved with your local herp society. Foster or rescue unwanted animals. Donate to your local shelters and humane societies, or to animal welfare groups who fund rescue efforts. Donate or get involved with educational projects focused on teaching the general public about how to compassionately and responsibly care for these animals. There are a lot of ways to make an impact on this sort of thing!

Man idk I started with two ball pythons now I have 6 with 4 more on the way. And I do eventually want bigger, more complicated animals when I have the right area set up for it. Every person I know what starts with one reptile eventually can't resist getting another. Then another. They're like freaking Pringles. I think Deb is right and there is still plenty of consumer demand to be filled. I never see a hatching sit around a breeders site for much more than 6 months if that, and usually they're gone in just a week or two. Though I do think there is starting to be a shift in the hobby from the huge facility operations like what Bob and Brian have, to smaller scale set ups focused on quality rather than quantity, which I think is a healthy trend in the hobby for long term sustainability.

Now whether the person buying it is a responsible keeper that will care for their new animal properly for its whole adult life is something you can only vet so far. As breeders, we do what we can at the point of sale, try to assist with trouble shooting care and husbandry after the fact if it's asked for, and cross our fingers.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

However, I think this is an important question to address. If one is going to take on the responsibility of caring for an animal for 30 + years, it behooves one to consider what would happen to the animal if something should happen to oneself.

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I put a list of names and contact info with my Will so that the executor knows who to contact for help with the snakes and cleanly closing out my firearms business, since he's neither a snake person or a gun person.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

They go where the market dictates. Some become pets or breeders. Others die or become feeders.

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when we got into breeding fancy guppies, one of the first things we did was to get an oscar and a jack dempsy to feed the throw backs to. I am guessing there is some sort of unspoken reality around this with BP breeding as well, though I have no idea what they could be fed to. I would be surprised if culling was not a common practice among at least large breeders.

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Originally Posted by Slither Seeker

when we got into breeding fancy guppies, one of the first things we did was to get an oscar and a jack dempsy to feed the throw backs to. I am guessing there is some sort of unspoken reality around this with BP breeding as well, though I have no idea what they could be fed to. I would be surprised if culling was not a common practice among at least large breeders.

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I can't comment on this in regards to less valuable morphs but I've heard of more then one individual who feeds snakes born with significant birth defects (after humanly euthanizing them) to a tegu or other similar animal.

Edit: I'm pretty sure there is actually a video showing someone feeding a still borne ball python to some sort of frog species (likely a pixie frog) I'll see if I can't dig it up

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

I've watched many YouTube videos of people with extensive collections of ball pythons living in rack systems and talking about how they want to breed them. In the wild most of the hatchlings would never see adulthood, but in captivity, chances are most survive. These animals live for up to 30 years, sometimes more. So it begs the question, where are all these snakes going? Can there really be so many people that want to maintain such huge numbers of these reptiles?

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At least part of it is they'll just keep getting passed from keeper to keeper. When someone gets tired of breeding/owning the snake, they'll sell it easily to another keeper. There's always a demand for adult morphs. When you see older female BP for sale, sometimes she's already been in 2 or 3 homes. When I got my female, only 5 years old, I learned that I'm already her third home. (But for her it's not surprising, since she won't eat f/t... I tried so many times) And the BP hobby really is gaining more and more interest from the general public every year.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

However, I think this is an important question to address. If one is going to take on the responsibility of caring for an animal for 30 + years, it behooves one to consider what would happen to the animal if something should happen to oneself.

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Imo that question could be asked of any pet, even dogs and cats. (Cats can live up to 20 years)

I agree that it is very important to have someone lined up to take your pets in the event of your untimely demise.

I have the contact information written down for the person I want to take my two snakes and my entire setups in the event I pass unexpectedly. My husband has been informed as to what to do about that. He has no interest in my snakes so I needed to make sure they would be cared for in the event that I could not do it.

Gives me piece of mind.

My kids love our snakes, and my daughter at least, who just turned 7, is constantly asking for her own. I want to wait a couple more years for giving her solitary responsibility, but she does help me change bedding and feed them. In the event that I kicked it prematurely, I don't think my husband would be able to convince them to part with the snakes at all.

For anyone interested this is that video
WARNING: it may be considered graphic (bp gets eaten)

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=z9kcL4YcpXQ

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Originally Posted by Slither Seeker

when we got into breeding fancy guppies, one of the first things we did was to get an oscar and a jack dempsy to feed the throw backs to. I am guessing there is some sort of unspoken reality around this with BP breeding as well, though I have no idea what they could be fed to.

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King cobras and indigoes eat other snakes, as do a variety of other reptile predators such as tegus.

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Originally Posted by Slither Seeker

when we got into breeding fancy guppies, one of the first things we did was to get an oscar and a jack dempsy to feed the throw backs to. I am guessing there is some sort of unspoken reality around this with BP breeding as well, though I have no idea what they could be fed to. I would be surprised if culling was not a common practice among at least large breeders.

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I definitely intend to feed the dead/afflicted offspring to my black tailed cribo.

I was listening to a podcast today and some numbers shared in that podcast put the OP's original question into perspective:

• There are approximately 4 to 12 million people in the US that keep reptiles
• There are 25,000 to 30,0000 members of USARK

The huge difference between those two sets of numbers is a good indicator of the gap between the hardcore keepers (with larger quantities of animals as seen in the YouTube videos) and the potential customer base for those animals. It's easy to get caught not being able to see the forest through the trees, but trust me - the forest is MASSIVE if you rise above the canopy and take a look for yourself.

Best regards,
Eric

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I was listening to a podcast today and some numbers shared in that podcast put the OP's original question into perspective:

• There are approximately 4 to 12 million people in the US that keep reptiles
• There are 25,000 to 30,0000 members of USARK

The huge difference between those two sets of numbers is a good indicator of the gap between the hardcore keepers (with larger quantities of animals as seen in the YouTube videos) and the potential customer base for those animals. It's easy to get caught not being able to see the forest through the trees, but trust me - the forest is MASSIVE if you rise above the canopy and take a look for yourself.

Best regards,
Eric

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I think this is really the key. The potential market population is still largely untapped - there are SO many people who aren't even aware of the industry. I've told friends about reptile shows and the numbers of species available (not to mention the numbers of morphs available and their costs), and the numbers of websites and offerings and breeders... and most of them just stare at me like I'm crazy. It never even occurred to them that an industry such as this could exist, let alone thrive. I think it's still very much considered "underground" though it's far more mainstream than it used to be 20 years ago.

The big breeders are ones tapping into that untouched potential. They're the ones providing animals to people who may never have thought about getting a snake. Maybe it's through a round-about means of wholesale selling, but still... if we want our hobby to be successful, it needs to grow.

I wonder about all those animals myself. I'm 31 and it's fairly common for visitors my age or younger to tell me they "had" a snake or an iguana like mine, some died, some were rehomed. The only person I know that's held onto a snake for a few years I'm taking care of it currently and it's your typical pet setup-big fish tank, human heat mat, no heat regulation, massively overhandled and 500 gram @ 5 year old bp so rather miraculous he's made it this long. I doubt most do from what I've seen personally and around forums. It's why I buy from breeders who care about their animals and don't just breed anything and everything to make a buck. In case anything happens to me most of my snakes will return to their breeders, some have another owner lined up and a couple could stay with my husband or nephews if they choose.

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Originally Posted by kxr

For anyone interested this is that video
WARNING: it may be considered graphic (bp gets eaten)

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=z9kcL4YcpXQ

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That is one heck of a size of meal! :O

Did it keep it down ok?

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Originally Posted by dr del

That is one heck of a size of meal! :O

Did it keep it down ok?

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I'm not sure... It's not my animal. If you ask him in the comments he'll probably answer you. He's usually fairly active on youtube


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by kxr

I really don't understand why Brian is thought of so poorly by so many of the "hardcore" keepers. Maybe something happened during the time when I fell out of the hobby for a few years but I never heard anything. He seems like a decent guy and he brings a lot of new blood into the hobby. I really don't get it

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Trying not to steer this thread in that direction. Same podcast - completely different topic. :gj: