Dilemma, 2 BP deaths after 1 week after local sale

I'm trying to thin my BP/Boa collection out.

I sold 3 ball pythons last Saturday; 2 breeder size female ball pythons, and 1 breeder size Pastel male. The females were around 5 years old, I had purchased and raised them since they were hatchlings. Both about 2,000 grams, currently off feed, and overall healthy. No wheeze, not thin, no mites, no drooling, no scale rot, etc. The male, about 1800 grams is in equal condition. All animals had been kept in racks, in my reptile room. I sold the females for $40 apiece and the male for $30.

The buyer contacted me this morning telling me that the 2 females have passed. And seemed to be questioning their health. Snakes were inspected before sale. I have seen no video or pictures of these animals. I have not vetted my collection and have never had health problems since beginning my collection about 7+ years ago, with the exception of one animal that I purchased a year ago with minor scale rot, which I cleaned, and put ointment on, and he is now fine.

Animals were sold via a local state FB group, buyer picked up these animals in person. The buyer lives 2 hours away. The buyer has mentioned that he has a "vet friend".

As a seller and reptile hobbyist that's on the fence with becoming a hobbyist breeder, I don't want this to become one of those Facebook/Fauna "drag my name through the mud", type of situations. I have sold other animals in my collection and have never had a problem and still keep in touch with one of my buyers.

Healthy animals that were "fine Wednesday", now deceased on Friday (the rest of my collection in my home are fine) seems odd. I feel that husbandry, maybe a heat spike, would kill these animals. Or exposure to chemicals. I have a friend that is also a reptile keeper and feels the same. The buyer mentioned that he works on cars. He also 5 other ball pythons. I'm not sure if he quarantined my group from his. He has children in his home. I don't know if these animals expired today or yesterday, I don't know if he has refrigerated the bodies.

I have priced a necropsy, one near myself and one near the buyer at $100-$250 plus. I don't feel like I would trust the "vet friend". The buyer has not asked for a necropsy or refund, nor have I offered.

The gist of this post is that I want to do the right thing, without being scammed, ripped off, etc.

Here are out exchanges.

Buyer: Morning. I have some sad news.

Me:What happened???

Buyer: I found the two females dead last night. I'm not sure if they were sick or stressed out. I'm not sure what happened. I went to check on them & dead. They were doing fine Wednesday.

Me: Damn...that's unfortunate. I'm sorry! The girls were fine here and my other animals are okay. I can't imagine stress. I've moved with them a couple years ago. They've gone from tanks to racks to bigger then bigger tubs and have been okay. They weren't old, 5-6 years, and unrelated.

How were they being heated? Could there have been a heat Flux? Thermostats? What were their Temps? How were they housed?

Me:UTH set at 88-90 during the day at night I have it dropped to 80-85 on a thermostat 40g. All my other snakes are fine. The male is fine also. Going to try to feed him tomorrow since it would be a week since I got him and he has been left alone and he's in a 40 gallon tank also

Hmm... I don't know. What kind of t-stats? Are they new? I've had a heat mat fail on me before. Have you tested the heat mat/tape since? I'm not trying to pick at your husbandry, if I sound that way. Just trying to wrap my head around it and figure out what could have happened. I just checked on my collection and everyone here is good.

You mentioned that you purchased new tanks. Were they cleaned before use? And how? Maybe a reaction to a cleaning product? I clean with either original Dawn or F10. If so, maybe the Pastel should be moved back to a tub just in case. Sorry, just trying to brainstorm. Keep me updated.

Him: I'll have to check the brand when I get home I don't remember what it is. Yes they are about 6months old. I spent like $250-300 on it. It Controls 4 pads at once. I turned it on before I left to get them to insure the tanks were warm when I got back. I hooked up a alarm system on it if the pads didn't get hot.

Yes I cleaned them with dawn mid soap & hot water like I always have done. That's the best way I has told. I did it about a week before I got them. Nothing else has been in there. Funny thing is I put the pastel in a tub & he got out one nite

Me: Hmm, sounds like a Herpstat or one of the other premium t-stats. Probes were placed okay? Thermometer with the Tstats? & you said you use aspen bedding? Yeah, that's how I would have cleaned the tanks.

Have you rechecked the setups? Heat spike? Anything else, I'd think, wouldn't take them both overnight. They were okay when they left, no wheeze or other RI symptoms. They've been off feed, the lighter one longer than the darker one, had good weights. This is upsetting. I've had them since they were tiny and have never had problems with either.

I've never had a jailbreak with the Pastel, that's surprising, only the lighter normal.

What do you think?

Him: It might be a herpstat. Yes. The probes are on the heat pad itself. Yes aspen. Yes rechecked everything to make sure nothing on my end went wrong. I even used a laser temp gun and it said 89. Yeah it is upsetting. Idk what went wrong. The first two nights the pastel was acting crazy so that when I put him in a tank. Then he relaxed so I put the other two in tanks also. They were all hooked up to the same tstats so I would think if there was a heat spike he would be dead to or something. I wish I checked on them Thursday but I didn't. So I'm not sure when they passed

What are your suggestions with how I proceed?

Ask him if he has the bodies and of he can send pictures of his setup/dead snakes. There really isn't that much you can do unless you want to do a partial or full refund or give him new snakes. So sorry this had to happen to you. Maybe asking him what he wants to do will help?

If the buyer is in northern VA I would instruct him to put the bodies in the refrigerator until he could get them to SEAVS in Fairfax for necropsies. Any actions I took after that would depend on the results.

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I have seen no video or pictures of these animals.

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That to me is a huge red flag if you have not seen pics or video.


There are a few possibilities here

A/ Not dead trying to get the money back and keep the snakes for free, not unheard of.

B/ Snakes both dead due to their husbandry or lack thereof, not unheard off either, I have seen people trying to get refund when buying animal from shows and killing it on the way home.

The chances of 2 healthy adults passing after a few days in the new owner's care is very slim unless they did something wrong, and since there is no video or pictures at this point you have to wonder if they are really dead, I know I would.

I have a very specific protocol in place should something like that happens one is pictures and or videos are mandatory, two the animals may have to be returned to me if I am not satisfied with the pictures. (The customer having their own necropsy done does not mean anything, they could take a different dead snake from their collection and have a necropsy done.)

Full refund is only issued if I am satisfied that the dead snake is indeed MY snake and of course it must occur within the time frame of the guarantee, of course exception may be made depending on whom the buyer is.

You'd be surprised how many people manage to kill their reptiles in just a few days.

Something isn't right

Selling retail gives me chills. This type of stuff for a little over a hundred dollars is nuts.

I would ask for pictures of the dead snakes. Sometimes people will try to scam you. Sometimes they have buyers remorse ,and they want you to pay for it. Don't be to quick to roll over.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

That to me is a huge red flag if you have not seen pics or video.


There are a few possibilities here

A/ Not dead trying to get the money back and keep the snakes for free, not unheard of.

B/ Snakes both dead due to their husbandry or lack thereof, not unheard off either, I have seen people trying to get refund when buying animal from shows and killing it on the way home.

The chances of 2 healthy adults passing after a few days in the new owner's care is very slim unless they did something wrong, and since there is no video or pictures at this point you have to wonder if they are really dead, I know I would.

I have a very specific protocol in place should something like that happens one is pictures and or videos are mandatory, two the animals may have to be returned to me if I am not satisfied with the pictures. (The customer having their own necropsy done does not mean anything, they could take a different dead snake from their collection and have a necropsy done.)

Full refund is only issued if I am satisfied that the dead snake is indeed MY snake and of course it must occur within the time frame of the guarantee, of course exception may be made depending on whom the buyer is.

You'd be surprised how many people manage to kill their reptiles in just a few days.

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Thanks Deborah! You've always been insightful and helpful with my posts! All your points are very valid. I went and read your terms at your website as well.

This is very frustrating for me, I raised these 2 since they were hatchlings. I don't want to spend $100-250 a piece on an animal sold for $40 or make a 6 hour round trip to retrieve the animals, then take them to SEAV. & the local reptile vet that I contacted (not SEAV), stated that if the animals expired more than 24 hours ago, without being refrigerated, probably wouldn't be any good.

I'll contact the buyer and ask what he wants, ask for proof that the animals have expired. I don't know how you do this part as a breeder, this is going to break my heart, seeing these two or really piss me off if he's trying to get over on me. In my gut, the only thing that makes sense is bad husbandry and he had the tank too hot. He's never been straight up told me that he's rechecked tank temps (edit: just reread his last message, states he did recheck).

I'll come back after I message him again.

The necro isn't just to determine why the snakes died, it's to preserve your reputation and protect your collection. If it does turn out that the females had some weird disease or parasite that kills snakes quickly and with little or no warning, then you need to know that so you can lock down your collection. If you don't get the necro the buyer is going to put it out there that you sold him sick snakes.

OTOH if they passed away because they overheated or there was some chemical residue in the enclosure then that's on the buyer.

Oh man, how upsetting :(

Not even so much about the money, but the fact that either the buyer is trying to scam you, or he really did cause your snakes to die.

I agree with the others, ask for PROOF. Not even just for the fact that you don't need to refund a scammer, but also so you have closure in this situation.

Ask him to stretch the dead animals in one big line and make pictures of the upper body, and the belly.

No "live" snake will lay still all stretched out. Esp. not upside down.

If they are dead, then yes, buyer most likely caused it. I would still refund then, because you don't need this headache over that small amount of money.

I'm so sorry. I have raised mine since hatchling, and this has got to be hard on you. You do get attached to snakes, too ..

My gut is that he's trying to get a refund and keep the snakes for free, especially without providing pictures?

1. It seems so sketchy that both snakes coincidentally died at the very same time, within a week of your sale. I mean if even just one snake died, it is believable. But both within days of each other/on the same day is sketchy. Does he have other snakes?

2. if it was due to a heat spike, he would be telling you about burnt bellies/cooked snakes. But he's being wishy washy about what they look like/the snakes bodies.

Also, if he does provide pictures of upside down, dead snakes, be sure to reverse google search to check if he grabbed them off the internet.

Yes, def. ask for pictures of upper AND lower body. All stretched. You will know them by pattern..

And he has replied -

Me: What do you want to do?

Him: Not sure. What do you think is fair for both of us? I don't want you to be upset

Me: I've reached out to and have spoken to established breeders and have researched terms of sale of various reptile breeders on animal guarantees. First, I need pictures and videos of these animals and their enclosures. Where are these animals now? Have they been refrigerated? Not frozen. Not left out. Most breeders have terms on deceased animals. A necropsy at SEAV in NOVA costs $99-$248 per animal, and locally for me would be $150+ as long as the animals have been refrigerated. Again, I would like pictures and videos of the animals and their enclosure to compare to pictures of them that I have. Then we can discuss the next step.

Him: I can get you pictures/videos. They are in a trash bag. They have been left out since I told you. I didn't refrigerate them because iv never heard of anyone doing that. At that cost I can just get new snakes. There's no point in continuing then.

Not trying to be mean or anything. I didn't know you had to refrigerated them after a death. I've never had a snake die. It's just $100 so let's just pass.

Me: Yes, certain steps are needed to be done before taking an animal to have a necropsy. I have been keeping reptiles since 2009 without issue. If you are uninterested in pursuing a necropsy, I'm in agreement in letting this pass as well.

Whelp, no pics... So, that's all folks, or at least I think that that's all. This really hurt. I have raised 2 of the 3 up from hatchlings and I don't know if Newbie and Thelma are even dead or if this guy just tried to scam me. & if they are dead, he tossed them in the trash. I went to the doc today and have Bronchitis, Sinus Infection, and an Ear Infection, and I was ready to drive my sick butt down to his house, get the snakes, and take them to SEAV (they are open tomorrow) for a necropsy. This would've been a 5-6 hour round trip for me. I've been on the fence on being a hobbyist keeper to hobbyist breeder and this makes me not want to deal with the selling part of breeding or breeding at all. If I sell anymore of my collection, I will definitely include terms and a contract. I'm going to go watch kitten and puppy videos on Youtube to cheer me up now because I can't drink because antibiotics.

Thanks everyone for your input. I'll update if for any reason this continues.

He said he 'CAN get you pictures/videos'... so why not get them? At least you could seek solace finding out whether the guy was being honest in some sense.

I would have wanted pictures and/or videos as well. For closure.
If the guy said he can get them..why didn't he?

But if you are at peace with the outcome, then that is what matters. Hope you feel better soon, bronchitis is NO fun :(

For future sellings I would definitely include terms of service where you put the description of where your selling the snakes, on your website, or even on a card along with the snakes(business card or such). so even if you go sell a high end snake and they are just trying to pull a fast one...there is a setup in place to cover your bum


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I'm so sorry you had this experience. I breed and sell fish (yes I know, not the same as snakes), and I have very strict terms. If a fish dies and you want a refund/new fish, I need videos, photos, anything to prove it. If they are DOA, they need to be in the same packaging I sent them in. Some people might think fish are cheap, you know a few bucks at the pet store, but I sell breeder and show guppies which go for as much as a few hundred dollars. Usually mine are about twenty to fifty bucks each or for a pair/batch of fry. I've dealt with a lot of liars, but I have to say, your customers story checks out, at least with my criteria. The guy's willing to send pictures of the dead animals. He did not seem to be pushing for money, or a refund even before you asked for pictures. I would ask for the photos he has before it's too late. This way you can at least have some closure as other posters mentioned. Good luck with future sales.

Here's a thought, does he have any young kids toddler sized? Maybe he showed them to his young kids and they squeezed them too hard in the wrong place.....

Honestly it may be more economical to just refund him his money and call it done, but he could still go out there and say you sold him sick snakes, even if you did refund his money. The best way to preserve your reputation is to just bite the bullet and get the necropsies done. This whole situation sucks, I'm sorry you're having to deal with this crap AND the (possible) deaths of two animals you raised since babies :( I hope it all works out for you in the end.

Just saw that he responded. Honestly if it were me I would still ask for the pictures, but if you're okay with the outcome it's not necessary. This whole interaction just seems very odd to me. I know he wasnt pressing for money but the fact that these two young adult females died at the same time within a week of sale is very strange, and it makes it even more strange for me that as soon as you mention needing pictures and possibly a necropsy, he's ready to settle and call it quits. He may just be concerned about the money and ready to cut his losses, but still why not prove to you that they're dead with pictures?

If I were in his shoes and these snakes really did die with no forewarning and all the correct keeping practices on my side, I would DEFINITELY be sending photos of the snakes and my setups and trying actively with the breeder who sold to me to figure out what happened.

I still think he's just scamming and jamming lol. Especially since he said "I can get you pictures, BUT they're in the trash" and then did not give you pictures. I would have immediately asked them, "Please take them out of the trash and get me pictures."

This is a really sucky thing to go through for you though, I'm really sorry it happened. :(

I'm suspicious of his explanation of the t-stats. How can you NOT know what brand you bought six months ago? The wording in that paragraph just seems fishy to me.

My thoughts are, he didn't have a t-stat, and both snakes burned. He won't show pics, because the damage is obvious.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Maybe you should ask for pictures, if only for closure. Maybe you could also help this guy out if he did something wrong and doesn't know it. Sorry this happened.

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

I still think he's just scamming and jamming lol. Especially since he said "I can get you pictures, BUT they're in the trash" and then did not give you pictures. I would have immediately asked them, "Please take them out of the trash and get me pictures."

This is a really sucky thing to go through for you though, I'm really sorry it happened. :(

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I agree.. This is to fishy... I think its a total scam.. "In the Trash"??? Yeah sure cause thats what people do without taking pictures or anything. The only other reason I can think of that he may accually have thrown them out without pics is because he knows what happened and its on him or something that happened.
Im sorry that happened because im sure you cared about them, but you cant hold yourself liable, especially without proof this day and age period.

This is a really sad situation wether the snakes actually died or he's just trying to scam you. Sorry you had this happen. In my opinion with the info provided, I think he either killed them and knows it's his fault that's why no pics or they are alive and he just thought he could get some cash back. I'm leaning towards he killed them somehow. In this situation, If he gave you pics and there was not obvious damage to the snakes, I would of just gave him the refund because it's a small dollar amount and saves you having to worry about him ruining your reputation. But sinse he was so quick to let it go I think it's obvious he knows it was his fault and your probably best just letting it go. It's never a good thing knowing animals you cared for died but unfortunately it does happen.

Everyone else has already given solid advice and I have none to give, I just want to say I'm so sorry for your loss. :tears:
In some ways, I sort of hope that he was lying just to try and get a refund, and that they are secretly okay. Man, reading thread really hurt... I can't imagine how that must feel.

I really hope you are feeling better soon, from both the illnesses and the sad news.