i have a predisposition to never want any spiders or morphs

their wobble is honestly depressing when it's so bad; it stems from the fact that i've seen so many videos of sweet spider morphs struggling so hard to eat. obvi that's just my opinion.

in my mind, i feel i'm promoting the morph, proving they're in demand, and allowing unreputable breeders to keep producing these babies with very terrible dispositions. or bad breeders sell to other breeders, and buying from the other breeder continues the cycle. idk, i'm conflicted.

please tell me i'm wrong. please tell me spiders/morphs with very bad wobbles are rare and they're even more rarely sold. i think they're beautiful and what they add to other morphs is awesome!

i have this whole "breeding tree" i'm making/dreaming of and i have specifically excluded all spider morphs. that's where my thoughts come from.

any insight into this is greatly appreciated! just a mini rant, but i'm also fairly ignorant to these kinds of "defects" (i say with quotes bc i know most spiders live happy, healthy lives!).

They are rare and usually an indicator of stress. Virtually 99.9% of spiders will live perfectly normal lives with virtually no wobble or a noticable wobble that doesn't hamper the snake in anyway. The snake isn't stressed by the wobble what so ever rather the wobble gets worse when the snake is stressed. This is from my experience mind you. The other 0.1% are usually trainwrecks that have something else wrong with them that worsens the wobble, i.e. A birth defect or another under lying issue. Those ones don't live either way so the chances of that being passed down, if genetic, are slim. The trainwrecks you see on youtube, tumblr, etc. are isolated cases. Most of the time those snakes are actually stressed. I've had a few spiders with varying degrees of wobbles and none have never been as bad as the ones in those videos.

also note, any snake can have a wobble either from birth defect or some sort of trauma or chemical "poisoning". I've seen non spiders wobble and those do a lot worse than spiders.

Another note, there are other morphs that wobble but none are as severe as the spider in terms of wobble intensity. For example, champgnes can wobble but very rarely would you ever notice one actually do the classic wobble.

interesting thing to note about the wobble, you'll never notice it when the snake is moving on the ground. The wobble only manifests when their head is off the ground. There is nothing weong with the spider morph at all and they live perfectly normal healthy lives. Hell my breeder black widow is the most feistiest thing on the planet and his wobble never hampers him. He eats like a truck and breeds like no tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

They are rare and usually an indicator of stress. Virtually 99.9% of spiders will live perfectly normal lives with virtually no wobble or a noticable wobble that doesn't hamper the snake in anyway.

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thank for all of your helpful insight! that helps me understand the morph much better. so my whole idea of "bad breeders produce bad spiders for $$$" is just in my head? is there such a thing as "bad" spider morphs?

i really, really do appreciate your reply. thank you so much for the reply!

Without stepping up on a podium (OK, maybe a little), most people with this opinion have never owned a single Spider morph. Yet, at the same time, are more than ready to get on their soapbox and preach about the issues they have with the morph and anyone working with it. It's their right to do so (and it is recently becoming trendy to do so), but you'll have to forgive me if you catch me shaking my head and smiling. Simply stated, Spiders thrive and breeders working with them have consciences. If they felt that these issues were detrimental (or common) enough to have a negative impact on their quality of life, they wouldn't continue to breed them - that's been proven many times over with other morphs with more serious issues.

For some more reading on this subject, here's a fantastic article written by one of the most respected breeders in the hobby: https://jkrballstreetjournal.com/201...spiders-silly/.

Best regards,
Eric

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

so my whole idea of "bad breeders produce bad spiders for $$$" is just in my head?

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Resoundingly YES.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

is there such a thing as "bad" spider morphs?

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Yes, but not for the reasons associated with the Spider quirks you're thinking about. There are some UGLY Spider morphs out there - I'd say they were "bad". :P

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Without stepping up on a podium (OK, maybe a little), most people with this opinion have never owned a single Spider morph.

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you're absolutely right, i never have. i guess i've fallen for the trendy-ness of straying away from the morph, but that's why i felt i needed to ask the forum before i had a solid opinion.

i'd see beautiful morphs, but see spider and go "oh no, i can't do that" without any other reason other than "well they could have an issue."

shake your head proudly, but you educated another person with an ignorant mindset. [emoji1] i truly appreciate your response!

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Yes, but not for the reasons associated with the Spider quirks you're thinking about. There are some UGLY Spider morphs out there - I'd say they were "bad". :P

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hahaha, i get it. again, thank you for the reply!

Here is my two cents on the spider. If you go back nearly a year ago. (Eric I'm sure you will remember) I was on the fence about spiders. I felt that if they had a neurological defect I did not want to produce them. Fast forward about 6 months and in a trade I got a spider Huffman. I only took him to even the value in the snake I gave and assumed I would resale him. (Unfortunately he was near starved when I got him and has just now been put on the market as he is finally healthy) and I began to understand that these snakes don't have the issues that people think. To this day I haven't seen him wobble. So I bought my wife her dream snake a spider albino. Now she does wobble. But only when she gets excited (feeding time) and even then she doesn't miss her meal. So I took the plunge and bought what I need to make my dream snake. A orange dream spider ( want a super OD spider fire YB) and again no wobble. It seams that a very few bad eggs have tarnished the spiders reputation. And remember as seven said any snake can get a wobble via birth defect or disease. I am glad that I took that first spider in trade or I may have missed out and kept believing that spider balls were a issue snake that I didn't want to produce

I don't see any issue in taking the stance to stay away from the spider gene even if you have never owned one. There is a huge difference between a random defect and a known disfunction attached to a phenotype. To reach there own but I plan on staying as far away from the spider gene as possible. There is an old school breeder near me that has even stated that spider sibs can get the wobble. He claims to have proof and offered to show me some animals, but I have yet to make it down there. He also claims to have been on the forefront of discovering the cg/banana sex link, but who knows.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the OP's pre-post mindset. I've done a good bit of reading on the Spider Gene, and to me is just not worth it. I seen from multiple sources that every spider has the wobble, to different effects and severity, and that's just not for me. I do feel sorry for them. I know there is a snake and a morph out there for everyone who is interested, but I just couldn't do it. So you can imagine my level of disappointment when i found out 2 morphs that I really like and aspired to get, contained the spider gene. I.E. ... Killer Clown and Bumblebee.:(. There only possible way I see myself owning a spider is if I had to rescue one.

In my collection, I have 2 albino spiders, spider double het ghost/orange ghost, bumblebee, honeybee and stingerbee. My other wobbler is pastel woma. I call them my handicap kids.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

their wobble is honestly depressing when it's so bad; it stems from the fact that i've seen so many videos of sweet spider morphs struggling so hard to eat. obvi that's just my opinion.

in my mind, i feel i'm promoting the morph, proving they're in demand, and allowing unreputable breeders to keep producing these babies with very terrible dispositions. or bad breeders sell to other breeders, and buying from the other breeder continues the cycle. idk, i'm conflicted.

please tell me i'm wrong. please tell me spiders/morphs with very bad wobbles are rare and they're even more rarely sold. i think they're beautiful and what they add to other morphs is awesome!

i have this whole "breeding tree" i'm making/dreaming of and i have specifically excluded all spider morphs. that's where my thoughts come from.

any insight into this is greatly appreciated! just a mini rant, but i'm also fairly ignorant to these kinds of "defects" (i say with quotes bc i know most spiders live happy, healthy lives!).

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Well I've only ever had one spider morph ... My Caramel Albino Spider who is simply perfect . Not a hint of any shake or wobble or anything , ravenous eater , lovely and calm . This is him a year or so ago but he's probably about 1kg now .




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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Without stepping up on a podium (OK, maybe a little), most people with this opinion have never owned a single Spider morph. Yet, at the same time, are more than ready to get on their soapbox and preach about the issues they have with the morph and anyone working with it. It's their right to do so (and it is recently becoming trendy to do so), but you'll have to forgive me if you catch me shaking my head and smiling. Simply stated, Spiders thrive and breeders working with them have consciences. If they felt that these issues were detrimental (or common) enough to have a negative impact on their quality of life, they wouldn't continue to breed them - that's been proven many times over with other morphs with more serious issues.

For some more reading on this subject, here's a fantastic article written by one of the most respected breeders in the hobby: https://jkrballstreetjournal.com/201...spiders-silly/.

Best regards,
Eric

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Thanks Eric. You always have some great insight and knowledge to share. I actually read that article just recently and it changed my thoughts on the spider morph as well. Great read. Actually, I shouldn't say it changed my thoughts, I should say that the article opened my eyes and educated me while dispelling some of the "trendy" myths that I too had been hearing.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I don't see any issue in taking the stance to stay away from the spider gene even if you have never owned one.

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Originally Posted by DreDeuce

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the OP's pre-post mindset.

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Thank you both. I have zero issues with these thoughts. Heck - I even support them. My goal is simply to educate and elevate. There are much more petty reasons that I don't work with some morphs (based on appearance alone!). For any one of us to judge or condemn each other based on these choices is counter-productive to the hobby. There really is something for everyone here and we are all better for it. :gj:

I own 3 animals carrying the spider gene. Both the banana spider moj enchi male and bumblebee female are great, eat well and are just sweet snakes. I can barely see the wobble when they're about to strike the prey.

The third one tho is a bit different (spider leopard). He's more or less a rescue, got it almost free from someone not taking very good care.
He's a bad spinner with a disastrous aim, always keeping his head crooked and often upside down. He's a 2013 male and only weights 800gr, got him to eat a couple times before the winter, now he's going trough a 3 months long fast.

Honestly I feel sorry for him from time to time. That said, only a small percentage of the spiders do show such bad symptoms and they still thrive and even breed.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well I've only ever had one spider morph ... My Caramel Albino Spider who is simply perfect . Not a hint of any shake or wobble or anything , ravenous eater , lovely and calm . This is him a year or so ago but he's probably about 1kg now .




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i see babies like this and i'm just blown away. WHAT a stunner. spider really is an incredible gene.

i really appreciate the discussion happening here. everyone is allowed their own opinion, but i felt mine was founded on very little information. of course, when i have questions about BPs, i come here first because of the wonderful people.

spiders are something i plan to keep an eye out for now, and of course if i ever decide to own a spider morph i plan on buying from a great breeder (and i'd love to own snakes by some of you guys down the road!!!!!).

thanks everyone for sharing your opinions, and keep sharing them!

In my opinion the rare chance that an animal has a severe wobble is not worth missing the opportunity of working with these beautiful genes. I do however think that the ethical thing to do is avoid breeding any wobbly morphs together. I currently own a beautiful spider that seems to be perfectly normal. Someday I'd also love to add hidden gene woma, spotnose and champagne into my collection. I will do my best to avoid any breedings that combine those genes in effort to reduce the chances of producing severe wobble animals.

I've heard spotnose is less severe then the other genes mentioned and even has a viable super but I'm still going to avoid combining it with other wobble genes and producing the super.

One question I have is what do you do with an animal with a really bad wobble?
Is it right for breeders to cull those animals or is it there responsibility to try to keep the animal alive despite a potentially low quality of life? I feel like it would be more ethical to cull these animals but I have no first hand experience with a bad wobble animal and how bad it actually effects them.


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Originally Posted by Aste88

Honestly I feel sorry for him from time to time. That said, only a small percentage of the spiders do show such bad symptoms and they still thrive and even breed.

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This is my issue with it honestly, that people are like, well only "some" of them are screwed up and wobbling all over so it's fine? 9/10 turn out fine but the last one is a trainwreck so let's play the odds and who cares about the bad ones because they aren't the majority? Clearly most of them live fine, but it's the ones who don't that concern me more, their lives matter just as much don't they? Idk, seems like a sad attitude to me but I don't breed. I try to stay out of the morph game entirely and wouldn't want a wobbly snake but maybe that's holdover from my other animals where reputable people aim to breed for the best and healthiest but bybs often go for defective flashy new stuff. I used to really like caramel albinos when I first got in the hobby until I found out they kink and that probably colored my attitude towards morphs a lot too.

I've produce hundreds of spiders and spider combos over the years. Out of those there have only been 3 that come to mind as being "Failure to thrive" issues. I can't however attribute that to the spider gene. We all make decisions about the genes that we choose to keep or breed. Is there some due diligence that come with breeding. Intentionally breeding for animals or combos that we know (with empirical information) are tragic failures, in my mind is irresponsible.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

thank for all of your helpful insight! that helps me understand the morph much better. so my whole idea of "bad breeders produce bad spiders for $$$" is just in my head? is there such a thing as "bad" spider morphs?

i really, really do appreciate your reply. thank you so much for the reply!

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Sure there are train wrecks but they are rare, very rare, the vast majority of spiders are doing just fine living their life just like any other BP.

In most cases the wobble is hardly noticeable especially if you do not know what to look for and it can lessen or worsen depending on several factors (temps, stress, feeding). A bad wobbler can produce offsprings that hardly wobble and vice versa.

Like with producing anything there are risk spiders however is not the only mutation known to wobble however it is the one people talk about the most (see champagne, woma)

As for the money in spider that's not where the money is if you really want to make money.

Bottom line breeding has it's risk there is no guarentee when pairing 2 animals regardless of the mutation that the offsprings will be healthy.

When it comes to known issues we all draw a line somewhere mine is regarding known physical deformities I don't work with caramel or super black pastel and super black pastel combos for that reason even though I would love to have a panda.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Bottom line breeding has it's risk there is no guarentee when pairing 2 animals regardless of the mutation that the offsprings will be healthy.

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always nice to hear from you, Deborah. thank you for your insight. like i said above, my opinion was based on little knowledge, and this is the first place i come to when i have BP questions. thanks again. :D

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Originally Posted by kxr

In my opinion the rare chance that an animal has a severe wobble is not worth missing the opportunity of working with these beautiful genes. I do however think that the ethical thing to do is avoid breeding any wobbly morphs together. I currently own a beautiful spider that seems to be perfectly normal. Someday I'd also love to add hidden gene woma, spotnose and champagne into my collection. I will do my best to avoid any breedings that combine those genes in effort to reduce the chances of producing severe wobble animals.

I've heard spotnose is less severe then the other genes mentioned and even has a viable super but I'm still going to avoid combining it with other wobble genes and producing the super.

One question I have is what do you do with an animal with a really bad wobble?
Is it right for breeders to cull those animals or is it there responsibility to try to keep the animal alive despite a potentially low quality of life? I feel like it would be more ethical to cull these animals but I have no first hand experience with a bad wobble animal and how bad it actually effects them.


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in terms of mixing wobblers together, they tend to not thrive 99% of the time such as spider champagne, spider powerball, hidden gene woma champagne. But some of them come out perfectly normal like hidden gene woma spider, spotnose champagne, and spotnose hidden gene woma. Spotnose spider is iffybecause i've heard varying degress of the viability. Ben renick has made numerous combos of thatpairing and they'veall lived to adulthood with no noticeable problems or differences from regular spiders where as justin kobylka has stated that spider spotnose comes out extremely dingy but can still eat so, spider crosses with spotnose are still in infancy interms of information. (I got this information from asking them directly)

As for animals will really bad wobbles, from my understanding, the amount of spiders that come out with a really bad wobble still thrive, it's just a bit more time consuming during feeding time because you have to check wvery little bit to see if they lost track oftherat ornot. That is also a moot point because i have to that with my non-wobblers anyway. In my opinion a bad wobbler that would have to be euthanized would be something that's dingy beyond repair like NERD's pearls that Kevin would accidently make back in like 2009-era where lethal combos were still being discovered. Those snakes have a wobble that's a 100x more problematic than the spiders.

A little side note: I do not have anything against people who choose not to own spiders but what I have a problem with is people bad mouthing and bashing people who own or breed spiders. (I.e. Reptiblr)

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Originally Posted by DreDeuce

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the OP's pre-post mindset. I've done a good bit of reading on the Spider Gene, and to me is just not worth it. I seen from multiple sources that every spider has the wobble, to different effects and severity, and that's just not for me. I do feel sorry for them. I know there is a snake and a morph out there for everyone who is interested, but I just couldn't do it. So you can imagine my level of disappointment when i found out 2 morphs that I really like and aspired to get, contained the spider gene. I.E. ... Killer Clown and Bumblebee.:(. There only possible way I see myself owning a spider is if I had to rescue one.

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I don't believe killer clown has the spider gene, not sure how you got that but killer clown is super pastel and clown. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as avoiding spiders, I'm glad I never heard about the wobbles until after I already owned two spider morphs. I may have avoided them as well but now having two, I am still yet to understand what these wobbles people talk about even are. My two spiders are both perfectly normal and gorgeous, it is one of my favorite morphs. I'm glad that I didn't miss the opportunity to enjoy such a great morph based on something that could be an issue but is not at all as bad as some people believe without ever even owning a spider. I could go look it up on youtube but why? I'd rather base my opinion on experience. I might be more hesitant to buy a spider based on a picture but I have no issue with adding more to my collection as long as I choose them in person like I did with my first two. At least this way I can see how they move and act. I think anyone that loves the spider morph should not miss out on owning one because of the fear of it having wobbles. If your really that worried, just wait until you have the opportunity to observe one before purchasing and you can avoid the chance of getting one that has any serious case of the wobbles. Spiders really are a beautiful morph, it's too bad a few bad cases have caused so many to miss out on owning them.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

This is my issue with it honestly, that people are like, well only "some" of them are screwed up and wobbling all over so it's fine? 9/10 turn out fine but the last one is a trainwreck so let's play the odds and who cares about the bad ones because they aren't the majority? Clearly most of them live fine, but it's the ones who don't that concern me more, their lives matter just as much don't they? Idk, seems like a sad attitude to me but I don't breed. I try to stay out of the morph game entirely and wouldn't want a wobbly snake but maybe that's holdover from my other animals where reputable people aim to breed for the best and healthiest but bybs often go for defective flashy new stuff. I used to really like caramel albinos when I first got in the hobby until I found out they kink and that probably colored my attitude towards morphs a lot too.

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I hate to post this video as it is somewhat graphic but it really addresses your concerns. I believe this animal is a chocolate butter ghost. None of those genes are known to have defects as far as I know however there is clearly something very wrong with this animal.

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=BZJo_2sM9hQ

If there's a 1% chance of hatching a ball python regardless of the genes at play should we avoid breeding them? I understand this is your argument taken to a ridiculous extreme but the point is there is always a chance of defects regardless of the genes at play.


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Originally Posted by kxr

If there's a 1% chance of hatching a ball python regardless of the genes at play should we avoid breeding them? I understand this is your argument taken to a ridiculous extreme but the point is there is always a chance of defects regardless of the genes at play.

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I know you are just exaggerating numbers but even with two normals you are already at 1%. I have 3 spiders. One of which is a train wreck and one that used to be (symptoms can return at any time though). I used to avoid these guys but after acquiring one by accident (long story), I have found that actually make really good pets. All three of the animals are thriving and are being bred this season. As Deborah said we all have our line of what we will breed and what we will not. I will not go spider to spider and I will not breed anything that has known kinking issues.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I know you are just exaggerating numbers but even with two normals you are already at 1%. I have 3 spiders. One of which is a train wreck and one that used to be (symptoms can return at any time though). I used to avoid these guys but after acquiring one by accident (long story), I have found that actually make really good pets. All three of the animals are thriving and are being bred this season. As Deborah said we all have our line of what we will breed and what we will not. I will not go spider to spider and I will not breed anything that has known kinking issues.

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I agree. Everyone has boundaries and we should all respect each other's boundaries. Personally, I will never purchase a caramel albino especially when ultramels are so nice. I will also never intentionally produce a super cinnamon/black pastel or eight ball.


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Originally Posted by rufretic

I don't believe killer clown has the spider gene, not sure how you got that but killer clown is super pastel and clown. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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You are correct. Killer clown is super pastel clown. No spider

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

in terms of mixing wobblers together, they tend to not thrive 99% of the time such as spider champagne, spider powerball, hidden gene woma champagne. But some of them come out perfectly normal like hidden gene woma spider, spotnose champagne, and spotnose hidden gene woma. Spotnose spider is iffybecause i've heard varying degress of the viability. Ben renick has made numerous combos of thatpairing and they'veall lived to adulthood with no noticeable problems or differences from regular spiders where as justin kobylka has stated that spider spotnose comes out extremely dingy but can still eat so, spider crosses with spotnose are still in infancy interms of information. (I got this information from asking them directly) )

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I want to comment on this really quickly. I don't want this to be taken the wrong way (although it probably will be) because by no means do I think Kevin or Ben are bad people but I'm not convinced of the viability of any of those animals. In a (somewhat) recent nerd video (one of the ones with Bill Galloway) it shows a spotnose hgw combo and that animal appears to be very wonky. Again I suppose this comes down to personal preference but I don't see an animal that wonky as something that should be intentionally propagated just because it CAN survive.

Now that could have just been a severe case considering the sample size is exactly one but the logical part of my brain says "even if there isn't a synergistic effect on the wobble of an animal by combining two wobbly genes together it would be twice as likely to produce a severely afflicted animal because there are twice as many genes that could create a severe wobble".

Either way until I have first hand experience with larger quantities of these animals (which I doubt I will ever have) I will be intentionally avoiding producing any combos involving more then one "wobbly" gene.

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Originally Posted by kxr

I agree. Everyone has boundaries and we should all respect each other's boundaries. Personally, I will never purchase a caramel albino especially when ultramels are so nice. I will also never intentionally produce a super cinnamon/black pastel or eight ball.


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I'm curious, what is the issue with super cinnamons? I ask because I own a pastel super cinnamon who hatched with a pretty big birth defect but didn't think it was an issue with her morph so much as an unfortunate one off. She's thriving in spite of it and is a very beloved pet who will never be bred.

I'm torn on this.

The videos of "severe" wobble and cork screwing are hard to watch.

On the other hand, my Bumblebee "Maya" is such an amazing and wonderful snake, I am so glad to own her. She is 6 1/2 years old. BEAUTIFUL. Kept her coloring nicely. But best of all, she is the most "chill" Ball Python I have. Never seems upset. Not head shy. Curious but calm. Never seems to have a "bad hair day".
Just an all around wonderful snake to own. She also has no discernible wobble. Literally none that I can ever see. Every once in a while she misses the FT offered rat at the first strike, but that is the worst she's done.

However, I don't kid myself. I do know she carries the gene and the wobble or corkscrewing could suddenly start. Or her offspring could be badly affected. There are no guarantees.

All that said, most spider morphs do alright. Some are more quirky then others, but they eat and live good long lives.

If there are certain combos where a "severe" problem happens in more then a third of the hatchlings, I would never breed that combination, though. Its one thing to create quirky snakes. But if you accept that some or more then half of the hatchlings are not viable, just in order to get that one super special one, not ok imho.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

in terms of mixing wobblers together, they tend to not thrive 99% of the time such as spider champagne, spider powerball, hidden gene woma champagne. But some of them come out perfectly normal like hidden gene woma spider, spotnose champagne, and spotnose hidden gene woma. Spotnose spider is iffybecause i've heard varying degress of the viability. Ben renick has made numerous combos of thatpairing and they'veall lived to adulthood with no noticeable problems or differences from regular spiders where as justin kobylka has stated that spider spotnose comes out extremely dingy but can still eat so, spider crosses with spotnose are still in infancy interms of information. (I got this information from asking them directly)

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What about a hidden gene woma cinnamon? I have one of those and I haven't noticed any wobbling. Tbh I haven't really looked for it and he tends to miss when striking food but I assumed that hat was normal ball activity.

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Originally Posted by zina10

If there are certain combos where a "severe" problem happens in more then a third of the hatchlings, I would never breed that combination, though. Its one thing to create quirky snakes. But if you accept that some or more then half of the hatchlings are not viable, just in order to get that one super special one, not ok imho.

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this is how i feel, too. i have never owned or held a spider morph, so my knowledge was non-existant. of course we only see the worst cases on youtube and other places, but i guess the huge majority of spiders live wonderful, healthy lives.

spiders do have an issue, but they thrive, so i feel okay in looking at them as potential pets/breeders. there are other morphs with far more detrimental issues, and most all breeders know and try not to breed those.

but hot darn are spiders beautiful animals. i'm very thankful to know more about them. 😊

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Originally Posted by kimmu

I'm curious, what is the issue with super cinnamons? I ask because I own a pastel super cinnamon who hatched with a pretty big birth defect but didn't think it was an issue with her morph so much as an unfortunate one off. She's thriving in spite of it and is a very beloved pet who will never be bred.

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This link is very helpful as it shows most if not all of genetic defects
http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php



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Originally Posted by kxr

This link is very helpful as it shows most if not all of genetic defects
http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php



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great info there. thank you for the link! 😀

I'm really interested in this as well, this was probably the most (IMHO, could be incorrect) unbiased, research-related article I could find. :)

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ns_for_welfare

This part of the above mentioned article bears repeating:

"Disproportionate legislative control may not promote optimum welfare and can have unforeseen consequences. The strength of the herpetocultural industry is in its community of enthusiasts, closely connected by web-based media. It is self-evident from a review of such media that most herpetoculturists care greatly for the health and welfare of their companion animals and/or breeding stock. This aspect of the herpetoculturist community should be supported and used to fuel further research into the welfare consequences of heritable disorders in reptile species, effectively disseminate findings, and improve self-regulation by community leaders."

:gj:

So this gets me curious if anyone has really tried to pair up spider x spider consistently and what their % ratios turn out to be?


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There are several breeders who pair spider to spider every year. OWAL does and a few others. As for their results they would have to answer that themselves

I'm really curious about this "all white" snake that died early. I'm not curious to see hatchlings die or come out as slugs but for the reason behind it. I may have to search around for a few emails and just see if I can get any responses?


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If I could find the blogpost about it i'd post it but it seems to have disappeared from the realm of the internet. The all white snake is, what is believed to be, the super spider. A little background, it has been more or less accepted that the spider mutation has occured twice in two types of pythons. The carpet python and the ball python being the jaguar and spider morphs respectively. The jaguar carpet python has the same tendency to wobble just like the spider and the super jaguar carpet is a homozygous lethal which results in a dead leucistic snake. From what I remember, the dead white snake fails to develop lungs and as a result dies. There are no known living super jaguars. Now there has been cases of white snakes occuring from spider x spider but it is extremely rare for the embryo to even hit that stage it seems.

As for that report, I haven't read it in a while but from what I remember the conclusion is inconclusive and that it doesn't not create a controlled enviornment to determine which spiders are affected by the wobble. i.e. A default environment that all the tested snakes will be kept in and monitored. It also just takes people's account of their spiders not taking into account how those spiders are kept and the individual keeper's hunsbandry practices. I mean, they asked 100 people and only 13 responded and who knows how they keep their snakes. It is known that environment is a big factor in how bad the wobble manifests in that a spider that shows virtually no wobble can have the worst wobble ever if the husbandry isn't to the T. Imo that report should
be thrown out and not taken as fact due to the lack of the scientific method. It is based of a questionaire with no real evidence being presented.

Again, spiders do great, have no problems thriving and, if anything, it is a visual indicator of stress imo. I have yet to hear of a spider actually dying from the wobble alone. Most of the time when I hear a spider can't, it's either the ownrr just being impatient to let the spider figure out where the rat is after it constricts. A spider isn't dumb and still knows how to eat, even though it looks wonky or takes it a bit longer than the rest. My spider does the little wobble while it attempts to swallow but it still eats faster than some of my non-wobblers who lose track of the rat and spend like half an hour trying to find it.

To reiterate, there's nothing inheritly wrong with the spider from a thriving and quality of life standpoint. Non-wobblers that have a wobble tend to do a lot worse than the mutations that have wobbles.

I love the response Seven-Thirty! I just wish there was more scientific evidence to kind of...put it to rest I should say? Maybe in 10 years we'll have an "official" answer to the homozygous spider. I guess we shall see lol


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Originally Posted by BBotteron

I love the response Seven-Thirty! I just wish there was more scientific evidence to kind of...put it to rest I should say? Maybe in 10 years we'll have an "official" answer to the homozygous spider. I guess we shall see lol


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The problem with that is that the ball python genome isn't mapped and everything about the genetic side is all from anecdotal evidence seen from breedings. In theory the super spider should exist and the only logical explanaition at this point is that it is a homozygous lethal that fails to even develop to fetal stage 99% of the time. The other theory is that it is dominant like pinstripe but there hasn't been a proven super spider ever in the history of the hobby so yeah...

So technically how do we even know if the spider is co or dom?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BBotteron

So technically how do we even know if the spider is co or dom?


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Well dominant just means that the homozygous (super) form looks the same as the heterozygous and since here hasn't been a proven super spider that looks like a regular spider and there hasn't been something that has hatched from a spider x spider clutch that isn't a spider or
normal, it is safe to assume that the super spider is a homozygous lethal and therefore a co-dominant trait.

No matter what the allele is, it has to fall under a locus that has two pairs of alleles. So no matter what the mutation is there will always be some sort of homozygous form whether it is a dominant, co-dominante/incomplete dominant or a homozygous lethal.

ALSO: spider does have an allelic combo in the form of black head in that black head x spider can produce an allelic snake that looks almost normal and has no wobble either. It's a weird complex.

Well despite the defects I have to say that the spider gene is one of the most beautiful out there. Here's a photo of my Jungle Woma spider female, I paired her with a Spider Pied male. Hopefully in the next month or two she will lay eggs. It will be interesting to see if I produce a white super spider!

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...oma_spider.JPG

Honestly, it's so insanely rare to produce an animal with problems thriving because of a wobble that it's practically a non-issue. The neuro associated with the wobble only really affect the animals ability to tell up from down, an issue more with their balance, and usually only becomes apparent when the animal is stressed, suddenly flipped upside down, placed in non-shallow water, etc. I've personally NEVER known anyone with (nor heard any true stories of) animals who's wobble was so severe that it affected their quality of life. There are definitely some animals out there with severe wobble but like I said I've never known one to not eat specifically because of the wobble, and anyone who had ever claimed to have a snake die because their wobble preventing eating never had any evidence to prove it.

Any breeder I've talked to and know would never sell an animal with a significant wobble without full disclosure, and honestly a lot just give them away to experienced homes or keep them as pets themselves.

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

It will be interesting to see if I produce a white super spider!

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Sorry to say the super spider is a lethal combo :( Seven-Thirty did a good job explaining it, the spider gene in ball pythons is analogous to the jaguar gene in carpet pythons and both are lethal in the homozygous form.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Well dominant just means that the homozygous (super) form looks the same as the heterozygous and since here hasn't been a proven super spider that looks like a regular spider and there hasn't been something that has hatched from a spider x spider clutch that isn't a spider or
normal, it is safe to assume that the super spider is a homozygous lethal and therefore a co-dominant trait.

No matter what the allele is, it has to fall under a locus that has two pairs of alleles. So no matter what the mutation is there will always be some sort of homozygous form whether it is a dominant, co-dominante/incomplete dominant or a homozygous lethal.

ALSO: spider does have an allelic combo in the form of black head in that black head x spider can produce an allelic snake that looks almost normal and has no wobble either. It's a weird complex.

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This is not entirely correct. First complete dominant is to incomplete dominant as poisonous is to venomous.

Dominance is not only that the heterozygous from looks just like a homozygous form, but more importantly you will have a homozygous which is phenotypicaly identical to a heterozygous that will produce 100 percent heterozygous animals when bred to an animal not carrying that gene. In this case if spider is a dominant morph you should be able to produce an animal that appears to be a spider but will produce no non spider offspring. Following if the homozygous is in fact lethal there is no way to prove Dominance short of finding and preforming genetic testing on a dead homozygous embryo.

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Originally Posted by Trisnake

Sorry to say the super spider is a lethal combo :( Seven-Thirty did a good job explaining it, the spider gene in ball pythons is analogous to the jaguar gene in carpet pythons and both are lethal in the homozygous form.

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So if you produce a 'super spider' will that result in a slug, an infertile egg that looks good, or does it develop into a white snake and just perish before it hatches?