Snake Breeding Business - concerns. Opinions?

I wanted to start a topic just to clarify some things for me about the snake breeding business. As I noticed Mr Sully posted previously, there are a lot of people posting about breeding their snakes or even asking on like, yahoo answers and silly things like that... and I really worry about the care for these animals. I understand that reptiles are not affectionate (if that's the correct term, at least on a human level) but the obsession with new morphs seems super inhumane to me... like the spider gene. I mean there are a bunch of animals that seem to have serious health issues and they're also being bred en masse to create new visible morphs and it's great that hobbyists will keep so many but I also see tons of snakes on Craigslist and in pet stores...

I just find it a little bit freaky how many people are just constantly making and these snakes are having their health damaged at detriment. I also wonder what will happen to all of these snakes when they're massive and if their owners potentially pass on before they die. I mean it would be so difficult to find someone to take in a library of fully mature snakes. It just seems like there is this huge obsession with the bright bold patterns and colours on hatchlings and it kind of disgusts me. Yeah, they are fun to look at! Yeah, I think they are super pretty and I myself got a flashy morph as my first BP! But what about all those tons of normals?

I guess I'd love to hear some feedback from the side of a breeder or hobbyist who owns many snakes. :) I'm feeling concerned.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...psvzot1lsa.png

I guess the same thing can be said of any animal such as dogs, cats, fish, etc... There are two sides to the coin, just like liberal and conservative talk show hosts LOL. Let's hypothetically say that we have the power to ban breeding of all animals and just put a stop to it. In just 12 months all the mice would die of old age, and in 3 years there would be no rats. In 20 years no dogs or cats, and in 150 years not even any people on the planet! Breeders keep the hobby going and replace animals as they die of old age or are used for other purposes such as food for us or other animals. If you were to go out and try to buy some turkeys to breed you would find that most are on the brink of extinction because the small farm is gone and so is the family farm turkey as we know it.

Breeding any animal is a lot of work and there is a ton of risk, especially diseases and natural disasters, fires, tornados, etc.. that could completely wipe out a life's work of breeding certain animals, some could never be replaced at any cost. It takes a lot of time, money, commitment and dedication to care for and feed animals. And supply and demand dictate what an animal is worth and if it's worth it to keep breeding it. I doubt we will ever see a day when people will keep breeding in mass animals that they can't sell or get rid of, they simply get overwhelmed and stop breeding that animal and it all balances out in the end. It's just like the whole Llama craze, they used to sell for tens of thousands of dollars each. Then people bred them in the thousands and the price dropped. Now you can get llamas for free and you don't see people breeding them in mass like they used to, supply and demand balances it all out.

Some genes do have some genetic defects, but I believe that even with a disability an animal so beautiful as a Spider Ball Python should be allowed to continue to be in existence and not snuffed into extinction by preventint people from breeding it.

My husband and I have about 90 snakes, including some adult retics. If we both pass away unexpectedly my sister-in-law, who is the executor of our Will, has instructions on who to call to deal with them.

I agree that there is a problem, just like there was a problem some years ago with overbreeding of exotic parrots that are intelligent, hard to keep, and suffer greatly when they are neglected. The good news with ball pythons is that they ARE kinda snuggly, DO make good pets, and DON'T produce a ton of young... and they are pretty low maintenance.

But yeah, the situation on Craigslist suggests that even for ball pythons, we have too many animals vs. the number of people able/willing to care for them. And I think we all maybe need to think about slowly switching from breeding to rescuing.

Most of the "breeders" that are posting on places like Yahoo answers and such will likely never produce viable young, and those few that do won't do it more than once since they'd also have to find buyers which can be a headache.

There will always be some unscrupulous breeders, just like there will always be owners who don't give proper care to the new pet. That doesn't mean all of them are bad, or that all people should stop breeding.

Also, very few ball pythons have inherent health issues. Spiders live long happy lives, or at least as happy as we can determine any reptile is. Yes, once in a while a clutch may end up with kinked babies, but this happens occasionally. It's a risk. Any breeding of any animal carries that risk.

You can't compare humans to animals, but if you were, it's like saying that since some kids may be born with a defect, no one should have any kids.

If you know of anyone who passes away and has a library full of snakes give me a call, I'd be glad to take them off of their hands!!!

:taz:

If it wasn't for all the snake breeders out there doing all the work in the background we would still have a bunch of plain ol looking snakes in the pet stores. It's hard to believe that 20 years ago we didn't even have albinos let alone all the different morphs out there now. It's an amazing time to get into breeding snakes, it's like being an artist with a full color palette at your disposal!

I am by no means a large breeder. I think I have about 40 permanent animals in my collection right now. That said, I understand why you would have concerns but I don't think things are quite as dire as you fear. No matter what, in every hobby and profession there are people that make bad decisions. There is really nothing that can be done about that as long as we live in a free society. Most of the people I know in the hobby are fairly responsible people. They know how many animals they can handle and they know how many they can sell. As to your specific concerns....

1. The people posting on yahoo answers are not likely to produce animals.

2. The obsession with morphs in itself is fine. It generates interest in the hobby and provides enough variety that everyone can find something they consider beautiful. It is amazing to watch the different reactions people have to color variations. People that are scared to death of snakes can see a white blue eyed ball python and find that they think it is cute. I find this funny personally because my best well behaved pet snake is an old ugly normal.

3. As to spiders, this is an old disagreement, I personally had concerns about them until I owned my first one. I now do not hesitate to breed them. They make great pets. I do not breed spider to spider, lessers to lessers, or any animals that are know to have genetic kinking problems. This is my personal choice as a breeder. Experienced breeders that do attempt these crosses know what they have to do when it goes wrong.

4. Ball pythons do not get massive. My six year old daughter can handle my largest animal safely with supervision. As to what happens if I cannot take care of my animals any more, my entire family is involved, if I am not around things continue just fine. This however is one on the main reasons I do not own any larger animals. My kids could not handle a large boa and even I do not feel like dealing with retic on a daily basis. Owners themselves need to have a little responsibility. They need to know their limitations.

I think that it is great that you ask questions instead of just forming opinions. I always say that the truly smart person knows what they do not know.

Oh I forgot to add... I have a Will... when I die, things are already arranged. I have discussed it with the person who will be the Executor. That's what any responsible adult should do, regardless of what they own, just to be certain that they're not causing issues when they pass away.

my spider I just rescued off craigslist is a perfectly healthy snake albeit he does this thing were if he misses a strike he turns his head upside down lol.

With responsible breeding comes the jackwagons who do the good ol' backyard breeding projects, produce WAY too many animals and don't care for them. Its a give and take in the hobby. I love the idea of finding new morphs, but as responsible breeders its everyone's job to determine if a morph has inherent health risks and make it known. BPs on a whole really don't suffer major detrimental health defects due to morph breeding, except some are known for kinking or the wobbles.

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Originally Posted by predatorkeeper87

my spider I just rescued off craigslist is a perfectly healthy snake albeit he does this thing were if he misses a strike he turns his head upside down lol.

With responsible breeding comes the jackwagons who do the good ol' backyard breeding projects, produce WAY too many animals and don't care for them. Its a give and take in the hobby. I love the idea of finding new morphs, but as responsible breeders its everyone's job to determine if a morph has inherent health risks and make it known. BPs on a whole really don't suffer major detrimental health defects due to morph breeding, except some are known for kinking or the wobbles.

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I presume that "upside down" motion is part of the wobble you talk about SOMETIMES , but not always , found in Spiders and a few other related morphs ??



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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I presume that "upside down" motion is part of the wobble you talk about SOMETIMES , but not always , found in Spiders and a few other related morphs ??



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That was my assumption yes.

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Originally Posted by cayley

I wanted to start a topic just to clarify some things for me about the snake breeding business. As I noticed Mr Sully posted previously, there are a lot of people posting about breeding their snakes or even asking on like, yahoo answers and silly things like that... and I really worry about the care for these animals. I understand that reptiles are not affectionate (if that's the correct term, at least on a human level) but the obsession with new morphs seems super inhumane to me... like the spider gene. I mean there are a bunch of animals that seem to have serious health issues and they're also being bred en masse to create new visible morphs and it's great that hobbyists will keep so many but I also see tons of snakes on Craigslist and in pet stores...

I just find it a little bit freaky how many people are just constantly making and these snakes are having their health damaged at detriment. I also wonder what will happen to all of these snakes when they're massive and if their owners potentially pass on before they die. I mean it would be so difficult to find someone to take in a library of fully mature snakes. It just seems like there is this huge obsession with the bright bold patterns and colours on hatchlings and it kind of disgusts me. Yeah, they are fun to look at! Yeah, I think they are super pretty and I myself got a flashy morph as my first BP! But what about all those tons of normals?

I guess I'd love to hear some feedback from the side of a breeder or hobbyist who owns many snakes. :) I'm feeling concerned.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...psvzot1lsa.png

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As "Breeder" we specifically choose which animals and morphs to work with. I have an adult pair of het Carmel Albinos that I was given and have never bred. The chance of spinal kinking just isn't worth the risk in my mind. I have however produced hundreds of spiders and never produced one that was so wobbly that I felt like I couldn't sell it. Now I have produced animals with no eyes, or spinal kinks and these typically go to homes for free regardless of the morph..Someone out there has a beautiful Champagne and a hypo enchi because of physical deformities.

From a business stand point I'd love to see fewer people breeding means less competition but I can't control that. I don't think we've gotten to the point where the number of animals has exceeded the demand. You're always going to have the fly by night people just looking to turn a buck and customers need to be informed enough to be able to tell the difference between experience and quality and smooth talking used car salesman of the reptile world.

I have a little more experience with dogs so i'll talk that. For instance my golden lab came from a friend, and my great dane came from a breeder. I thought that was cool. Not really, the lab had no problems, bread and taken care in a house I know by wonderful people who loved their pet, although I struggled to find a specialized vet. BUT the grate dane who came from a very distinguished champions breeder, turned out to sell me a puppy with ticks, and clearly he was beat in the hatchery. A year has passed and still turns his head in fear when tried to pet him (signs of mistreat).

The funny thing is I told the breeder, I told him I knew he wouldn't lay a hand on his dogs but maybe someone on his crew might. Told him he should check that out. He got offended and insulted me, etc...

Zelig (my dog) lives the life of a king, couldn't be any better. He is a happy, playful, loving, active, childish dog and thats all that matters to me. He wakes me up every morning with a face full of licks [emoji104] and if I don't get up and take him out for a walk he starts whining and jumping on my back, not so funny on a 110lb animal in fact it is funny [emoji13]just a little bit painful. I love joking, when he steals something from the kitchen and the person who helps me with the cleaning and cooking try to scold him, he barks back [emoji23]he don't likes being nagged, and I tell the girl: careful! your job depends on whether he likes you or not, if he tells me he don't like you, you're gone girl! hahaha But yeah the breeder wasn't the best. [emoji51]


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There's not as many "big" breeders out there as you might think (or the internet might make your believe). It takes a lot of time, money, and effort to run a large business centered around any animal. Many of the medium to larger scale operations also breed their own rodents and/or insects to feed off - it's impossible to run something like that without putting your heart into it. They care about their animals, they care about the education surrounding them.

I think the big concern are the "breeders" who are really flippers. They aren't so concerned with how the animal is taken care of, because they don't expect it to be there long. They don't much care who they sell to, since they're really in it to make a profit. Education isn't a huge priority. It's these large operations that we have to be concerned about - and that just means being smart and asking the right questions, and having this forum for people that do make the mistake of buying these animals without the knowledge to back them up.

Breeders shouldn't be vilified. There should be a greater awareness about flippers.

The same can applied to dogs and cats 100 fold and we have no problem with that. You talk about Spiders and their wobble. That's nothing compared to some dog and cat breeds that can hardly breath by design or that can't actually give birth without a C-section.

Even though ball pythons I believe have reached a state of overpopulation in the states I doubt we'll ever see stray snakes cruising around the neighborhood or that Sarah McLachlan song being played to try and get trip people into adopting a homeless snake.

When talking about too many ball pythons, factor in the thousands of normal ball pythons imported from Africa every year. Breeders are subject to the economic laws of supply and demand. Without the morphs, there wouldn't be any professional breeders because they couldn't compete with the imports.

I feel sorry for a lot of snakes. However, I do not blame "breeders". Esp. the reputable ones. Thanks to them we can now find nice, captive bred Ball Pythons. Used to be, almost all of them were wild caught, stressed out, parasite (internally, externally) ridden and unhealthy.

Who I blame are the keepers/owners.
The ones that decide on a whim to get a cool snake, only to neglect it. The ones that refuse to do the research into the correct husbandry. Or worse, the ones that disregard the information about correct husbandry and the animal pays for it.

As for morphs, it is because of the morph market that so many Ball Pythons are being bred, which in turn made so many quality CB animals widely available. ​All morphs actually originated in the wild. They are mutations. Granted, with inbreeding to create certain combos, you can create certain problems.

Breeders have learned which animals should or shouldn't be bred. The spider morph continues to be bred and sold because they create some truly beautiful animals that can and do live long and healthy lives. Albeit quirky. ​

​I dislike flippers, or fly by night breeders or anyone that puts the profit ahead of the well being of the animal. But reputable breeders are the BEST source of great and healthy snakes.

I see FAR more wrong being done by keepers/owners. Nowadays there is simply NO excuse not to do the research, when it has become so easy to do.​ Setting up a Ball Python the right way is not very difficult or expensive to do...

just my 2 cents ;)

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Originally Posted by Mike17

BUT the grate dane who came from a very distinguished champions breeder, turned out to sell me a puppy with ticks, and clearly he was beat in the hatchery. A year has passed and still turns his head in fear when tried to pet him (signs of mistreat).

The funny thing is I told the breeder, I told him I knew he wouldn't lay a hand on his dogs but maybe someone on his crew might. Told him he should check that out. He got offended and insulted me, etc...

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I'm going to clarify one thing... that's ugh going to be off-topic again but LOL, people keep bringing breeding topics back to dogs.

Not a single reputable dog breeder has a "crew" to care for their dogs. Every single good breeder I know with either high-achieving national competition dogs in sports OR champion titles in AKC conformation showing keeps their dogs as personal pets in their home, with just themselves and their family to care for them, just like the rest of us. And god forbid they beat their dogs. Reputable breeders are the most passionate, hard-working people I know who love and treat their dogs like the center of their lives.

I'm being honest, you unwittingly got your dane from a bad breeder. Actually, it sounds like a TERRIBLE breeder who nobody sane in the dog world would respect. So I hope you don't continue to call him "very distinguished", whoever he is. Sounds more like a puppy mill. It is no help contributing to the crowd trying to lump good breeders in with the mills/bad ones.

Just like there are amazing ball python breeders who would bet their lives on their animals, there are bad breeders with unhealthy animals under the same disguise of "very distinguished".

I'd like to point out that the reason that there are so many ball pythons on Craigslist is because some people are irresponsible and don't do any research before getting one. They get bored when they realize that their new pet spends all day in the hides.

A snake is a long term commitment and should never be an impulse purchase. Research is vital when it comes to caring for any type of animal.

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Originally Posted by Kira

I'd like to point out that the reason that there are so many ball pythons on Craigslist is because some people are irresponsible and don't do any research before getting one. They get bored when they realize that their new pet spends all day in the hides.

A snake is a long term commitment and should never be an impulse purchase. Research is vital when it comes to caring for any type of animal.

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Can't say I have ever paid much attention to Craigslist but I do know there are definitely people buying animals that should not. I have been in my local reptile store many times browsing and overhearing conversations between store employees and customers. The employees at this place are actually pretty knowledgeable and I know that they know that the person that is buying doesn't have two brain cells to rub together but they sell them the animal anyway. Businesses have to do business, but I don't think I would last too long as a pet shop owner. I would end up declining more sales than I made.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Can't say I have ever paid much attention to Craigslist but I do know there are definitely people buying animals that should not. I have been in my local reptile store many times browsing and overhearing conversations between store employees and customers. The employees at this place are actually pretty knowledgeable and I know that they know that the person that is buying doesn't have two brain cells to rub together but they sell them the animal anyway. Businesses have to do business, but I don't think I would last too long as a pet shop owner. I would end up declining more sales than I made.

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I wouldn't last long either because I couldn't in good conscious sell a snake to someone who doesn't care about proper husbandry. There should be some kind of test people have to take before getting an animal!

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Can't say I have ever paid much attention to Craigslist but I do know there are definitely people buying animals that should not. I have been in my local reptile store many times browsing and overhearing conversations between store employees and customers. The employees at this place are actually pretty knowledgeable and I know that they know that the person that is buying doesn't have two brain cells to rub together but they sell them the animal anyway. Businesses have to do business, but I don't think I would last too long as a pet shop owner. I would end up declining more sales than I made.

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Me either.. But if someone's going to get into the business of selling live animals, that's what SHOULD be done, or don't do it at all. Leave the animal breeding and selling to the people who do care about the homes their animals go to, and leave the reptile stores to just selling reptile supplies. I just wish this was more common practice.

At the very least everyone could hand out "proper husbandry guides" like a 1 page laminated with pics or something. Might at least help a small percent of the general population


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