Hybrid pythons

Hey!

I was wondering what the general consensus is on hybrid python species. I personally find them so beautiful, but questionably unnatural (although so are dogs I guess).

What types are there
I've heard of burmballs (burmese x ball), bateaters (burm x retic), carpalls (carpet x ball)

Can literally any python breed with any python? And with boas?

It's a whole new bizzare world 😂

Different dog breeds are all one species - the analogue with snakes would be pairing various BP morphs.


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There are also superballs (ball pythons x blood python)
Boas have amazon tree x emerald tree and yellow anaconda x rainbow boa

I *think* the snakes have to be in the same genus to be crossed (but I could be wrong there)

With the exception of carpondros (GTP x carpet python) I don't really like any of the hybrids.

Crossing a semi-arboreal or arboreal with a terrestrial (or mostly terrestrial) species like balls makes me wonder if they retain more of their arboreal nature or not? Do they still retain their arboreal instinct, but they don't have the body for it anymore? Do only some babies get an arboreal instinct, and some don't?

Anyway, I like carpondros! I think there's nothing wrong with crossing arboreal to semi-arboreal/arboreal, or terrestrial to terrestrial. It's not "natural", but neither is breeding ball python morphs. It's all within the pet population, and doesn't affect the wild population in any way. So if the animal is healthy and thriving, and responsible owners care for them, who cares?

Ballticulated Python (Ball x Retic)

;)

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

With the exception of carpondros (GTP x carpet python) I don't really like any of the hybrids.

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Not even my Milk X King ??

;)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2db4677ad1.jpg


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@ Zinc- I stand corrected :). I was mostly thinking pythons. Some of the king/milk/corn combos are insane. Yours is a perfect example. Very nice! ;)

To each their own.

Personally , I'm not a fan.

I don't think it is the same then breeding "morphs" at all. All morphs come from snakes that were collected in the wild. They are color mutations, much like Albino. They are naturally occurring. We just exploit and expand those traits. Sometimes, selective breeding doesn't just re-create certain colors, but also defective genes that come along with certain ones. But that is a different kind of ethics discussion.

Some of the hybrids being bred come from completely different areas. There is no chance at all that they would "naturally" occur. Look at Blood Pythons and Ball Pythons. Blood pythons come from southeast Asia region, Ball Pythons are found in sub-saharan Africa. Each of them have quite different husbandry needs.
As is, there are to many snakes that aren't kept properly. Why muddy the pool with snakes that one has NO clue which way they should be kept ?? And going by "looks more this or that" will not help you. There is no way of knowing exactly how much DNA of each is in each individual hatchling. Its not the basic "50/50" or "25/75". That is not the way genetics work.
So it will all be "trial and error".
So why ?? Just because it looks cool ? Sometimes the phrase "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" comes to mind.

Also, once you breed those hybrids to other snakes, you can end up with hatchlings that look like one particular species, but they truly aren't. And if they get mixed into the gene pool, you may never know what you may have.

So no, I'm not a fan.

But I respect that others may be. We all like different things and have different opinions ;)

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Originally Posted by zina10

To each their own.

Personally , I'm not a fan.

I don't think it is the same then breeding "morphs" at all. All morphs come from snakes that were collected in the wild. They are color mutations, much like Albino. They are naturally occurring. We just exploit and expand those traits. Sometimes, selective breeding doesn't just re-create certain colors, but also defective genes that come along with certain ones. But that is a different kind of ethics discussion.

Some of the hybrids being bred come from completely different areas. There is no chance at all that they would "naturally" occur. Look at Blood Pythons and Ball Pythons. Blood pythons come from southeast Asia region, Ball Pythons are found in sub-saharan Africa. Each of them have quite different husbandry needs.
As is, there are to many snakes that aren't kept properly. Why muddy the pool with snakes that one has NO clue which way they should be kept ?? And going by "looks more this or that" will not help you. There is no way of knowing exactly how much DNA of each is in each individual hatchling. Its not the basic "50/50" or "25/75". That is not the way genetics work.
So it will all be "trial and error".
So why ?? Just because it looks cool ? Sometimes the phrase "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" comes to mind.

Also, once you breed those hybrids to other snakes, you can end up with hatchlings that look like one particular species, but they truly aren't. And if they get mixed into the gene pool, you may never know what you may have.

So no, I'm not a fan.

But I respect that others may be. We all like different things and have different opinions ;)

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Very well put :gj:

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Originally Posted by zina10

Some of the hybrids being bred come from completely different areas. There is no chance at all that they would "naturally" occur.

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just a small note - ATB x ETB have occurred in the wild but it does seem to be quite rare.
:)

I see no problem with creating hybrids as keeping captive snakes is not a natural situation from their enclosures to selective breeding for traits. Many people in the industry create hybrids without knowing it because there is not a very good understanding of species with serpents. When classifications change due to scientific research one species may become two. Without breeding to very specific localities you run the risk of unintentionally creating hybrids. This is currently taking place with eastern indigos. As ball pythons have never really been bred for locality there is a chance we are already creating hybrids. The crossing that amazes me the most are woman x ball pythons. They are just such entirely different animals that I think it incredible that they can interbreed.

I'm sure I saw a case of a live bearer cross with an egg layer - about a year ago . That seems unlikely or even impossible so maybe it was a fake !?!

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

Crossing a semi-arboreal or arboreal with a terrestrial (or mostly terrestrial) species like balls makes me wonder if they retain more of their arboreal nature or not? Do they still retain their arboreal instinct, but they don't have the body for it anymore? Do only some babies get an arboreal instinct, and some don't?

Anyway, I like carpondros! I think there's nothing wrong with crossing arboreal to semi-arboreal/arboreal, or terrestrial to terrestrial. It's not "natural", but neither is breeding ball python morphs. It's all within the pet population, and doesn't affect the wild population in any way. So if the animal is healthy and thriving, and responsible owners care for them, who cares?

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(replying to my own comment lol) Someone on another site brought up a good point about hybrids actually, that's kinda related to what I was wondering. Since genetics is not a 50/50 cross, there's the problem with not knowing the EXACT husbandry requirements each hybrid needs. Stuff like perches or ground hides/arboreal hides can all be provided, just in case, and that's easy to do. But what about exact heating and humidity needs of each pairing, each individual hybrid? There's no way to know, just guesswork.

So in that case, I'm only vouching for hybrids with very similar temp and humidity needs.

ETA: Lol I just realized zina basically brought up the same point!

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Originally Posted by zina10

To each their own.

Personally , I'm not a fan.

I don't think it is the same then breeding "morphs" at all. All morphs come from snakes that were collected in the wild. They are color mutations, much like Albino. They are naturally occurring. We just exploit and expand those traits. Sometimes, selective breeding doesn't just re-create certain colors, but also defective genes that come along with certain ones. But that is a different kind of ethics discussion.

Some of the hybrids being bred come from completely different areas. There is no chance at all that they would "naturally" occur. Look at Blood Pythons and Ball Pythons. Blood pythons come from southeast Asia region, Ball Pythons are found in sub-saharan Africa. Each of them have quite different husbandry needs.
As is, there are to many snakes that aren't kept properly. Why muddy the pool with snakes that one has NO clue which way they should be kept ?? And going by "looks more this or that" will not help you. There is no way of knowing exactly how much DNA of each is in each individual hatchling. Its not the basic "50/50" or "25/75". That is not the way genetics work.
So it will all be "trial and error".
So why ?? Just because it looks cool ? Sometimes the phrase "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" comes to mind.

Also, once you breed those hybrids to other snakes, you can end up with hatchlings that look like one particular species, but they truly aren't. And if they get mixed into the gene pool, you may never know what you may have.

So no, I'm not a fan.

But I respect that others may be. We all like different things and have different opinions ;)

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gonna go with this^^^^

Well I have to tell you that I'm actually working with what some people could consider a 'hybrid' species, specifically Reticulated Pythons. I'm actually crossing three different types of retics, the huge Mainlands, the mid sized Jampea Dwarfs, and the 'tiny' Super Dwarfs. The snakes are similar in that they look alike and have similar characteristics but they would never interact with each other in the wild since they come from different localities. And the size differences are huge, the Super Dwarfs getting the size of a large Coulbrid and the Mainland getting over 200 pounds!

I'm crossing these snakes with a particular goal in mind and that is to shrink down the snakes to just about any size you want by combining different ratios of the three types as well as breeding back into the huge Mainland species to bring the morphs over to he smaller snakes. You really have to keep track of the percentage of each type of snake, for example my male is 37.5% Super Dwarf, 50% Jampea Dwarf, and 12.5% Mainland. And my female is 50% Jampea Dwarf and 50% Mainland. So the offspring will be 18.75% Super Dwarf, 50% Jampea Dwarf, and 31.25% Mainland. It's a bit confusing but as long as you can keep track of the genetics I think it's OK and you can pretty much determine how big the snake will get based on the percentage of the three, Mainland having the most influence. It's not an extreme example of a hybrid snake but I'd say it's still a hybrid.

Here's my female 'Lucy' at 10 pounds, such a beautiful and wonderful snake! Super friendly, never showed any aggression at all:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m%2Flucy-1.JPG

Hybrid animals are nothing new and have been used to create animals better suited to our needs for years. A perfect example would be a mule.
To each his/her own. If you like the possibilities and can create healthy animals, go for it.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

Hybrid animals are nothing new and have been used to create animals better suited to our needs for years. A perfect example would be a mule.
To each his/her own. If you like the possibilities and can create healthy animals, go for it.

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Yeah , don't they say mongrels are healthier than pedigree dogs !?

As long as the produced animal thrives and is sold as what it is I see nothing wrong there.
Honestly I see more reason not to breed morph with neuro defects like spider (both my male breeder have spider btw, just saying).

I agree saying 50% or 75% something has little use as we know nothing of how the genes combine.

As far as the husbandry for such animals, the breeder should find out the proper parameters before selling or selling only to experienced keeper that know how to adjust it to the animal. After all nobody knew the proper temperatures and such when bp were first brought in captivity. I've read maternal incubation was considered the only viable way before figuring out the temperature and humidity requirement for the eggs.

I see a lot of cateaters (burmese x african rock python) being sold in my area, they look amazing and have no health problem whatsoever.

I might give it a shot to produce a carpondro someday.

My point wasn't about hybrids created by breeding different localities of the same species. Those are still related and have much of the same needs. That can "simply" muddy up the genetics until you cannot be sure of locality anymore. Some people are bothered by that, others are not.

Then there are hybrids that aren't by the same species, but from the same general locality. They have similar needs, because they live in similar climates. They do occur in nature, but extremely rarely.

"Hybrid vigor" doesn't actually apply to breeding snakes. Dogs come from wolves. Yet look at certain breeds such as the english bulldog. Severely compromised breathing due to the smooshed face. The giant breeds have a lowered life expectancy. The tiny breeds have other problems. The folded over ears that are prone to ear infections (no wild species of dogs or wolves have floppy ears). You get my point, in order to create the different dog breeds and the extremes we like, we have created some with health issues that are genetic. Same for cats. Even horses. Most modern Thoroughbreds have terrible hooves. Bones that have gotten to light (for speed). Quarterhorses with upright pastern for looks but not function. And so on and on. So hybrid vigor comes into play when you take those breeds with very specific and overbred traits and cross them with others. By doing that you sometimes get "mixes" that do not have the problems their individual parents have. Doesn't always work that way, though, but the more "mixed" the mix, the less of the extremes the parents might display.

We haven't created wildly varying breeds of snakes. Yet. However, there is a good amount of "inbreeding" to get the color mutations we like. Some suffer health consequences because of that. But ...you don't have to breed hybrids to make healthy snakes, you can just avoid "morphs" if you worry about genetic defects due to inbreeding.

My point is, if you breed 2 snakes from completely different areas of the world, that have different husbandry needs, you do not create a "healthier" snake.

You create something "different", something that wouldn't be found in nature. That appeals to some people and I understand that.

The OP asked for opinions. And this is just "mine". I respect that others may disagree ;)

For the breeder to figure out the proper husbandry for such animals is easier said then done. Yes, we had to learn the proper husbandry for all snakes when they first came into captivity. But when you knew where they come from, you had a lot to go by. You knew climate. You could research about how they live, what they eat, etc.
But how is a breeder to establish the correct husbandry for hatchlings from snakes of different areas and husbandry needs? It is guess work. You could start in the "middle". And if the snake doesn't thrive, you bump up heat. Or lower it. Same with humidity. It could be different for each hatchling. That sounds like quite the job, esp. since one couldn't be sure if the snake is just a stubborn feeder, or actually just being kept in wrong husbandry. I just don't like it. To much guess work and experimenting with only the snakes to suffer for our inexperience. Each time you get it wrong, you don't know if the next step will fix it or make it worse. And RI's are not something quickly cured. I'm sure it goes well many times. And some snakes just adapt to less then ideal husbandry and "live with it". We see that even with "pure breds".

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

Well I have to tell you that I'm actually working with what some people could consider a 'hybrid' species, specifically Reticulated Pythons. I'm actually crossing three different types of retics, the huge Mainlands, the mid sized Jampea Dwarfs, and the 'tiny' Super Dwarfs.

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Those are locality crosses though and should not be considered as a hybrid IMO

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Originally Posted by zina10

My point is, if you breed 2 snakes from completely different areas of the world, that have different husbandry needs, you do not create a "healthier" snake.

You create something "different", something that wouldn't be found in nature. That appeals to some people and I understand that.

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For the sake of argument, I'll throw this thought out there: evolutionary diversity can be seen in species across the planet - for instance, new world pythons vs old world pythons. At some point in history, these critters came from the same line. If they are still able to breed, I would say despite their distance/locality, they haven't diversified enough from the original line to make much of a difference (in evolutionary terms). If they've become biologically distinct (boas vs pythons) and cannot breed, I think this is where evolution itself has drawn a line in the sand and said "nope, sorry... I can't let this happen."

It all depends on what you believe I guess. Are people playing God when they bring two animals from different regions together? Who's to say there won't be a biological catastrophe in the next 100 years where these species are thrown together anyway?

Personally, I believe humans are just animals that impact the evolution and diversity of their surroundings (in much the same way any new super predator will affect their surroundings - nature has a history of these occurrences where creatures have evolved and died out because their surroundings cannot sustain them. I think it's entirely possible this is the fate of humanity, but that's another topic lol).

I feel that humans will really be playing God when they decide to ignore millions of years of evolution to take apart the building blocks of life and splice them back together - thereby creating a a hybrid at the genus level or above. That's slightly terrifying to me.

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Originally Posted by zina10

My point wasn't about hybrids created by breeding different localities of the same species. Those are still related and have much of the same needs. That can "simply" muddy up the genetics until you cannot be sure of locality anymore. Some people are bothered by that, others are not.

Then there are hybrids that aren't by the same species, but from the same general locality. They have similar needs, because they live in similar climates. They do occur in nature, but extremely rarely.

"Hybrid vigor" doesn't actually apply to breeding snakes. Dogs come from wolves. Yet look at certain breeds such as the english bulldog. Severely compromised breathing due to the smooshed face. The giant breeds have a lowered life expectancy. The tiny breeds have other problems. The folded over ears that are prone to ear infections (no wild species of dogs or wolves have floppy ears). You get my point, in order to create the different dog breeds and the extremes we like, we have created some with health issues that are genetic. Same for cats. Even horses. Most modern Thoroughbreds have terrible hooves. Bones that have gotten to light (for speed). Quarterhorses with upright pastern for looks but not function. And so on and on. So hybrid vigor comes into play when you take those breeds with very specific and overbred traits and cross them with others. By doing that you sometimes get "mixes" that do not have the problems their individual parents have. Doesn't always work that way, though, but the more "mixed" the mix, the less of the extremes the parents might display.

We haven't created wildly varying breeds of snakes. Yet. However, there is a good amount of "inbreeding" to get the color mutations we like. Some suffer health consequences because of that. But ...you don't have to breed hybrids to make healthy snakes, you can just avoid "morphs" if you worry about genetic defects due to inbreeding.

My point is, if you breed 2 snakes from completely different areas of the world, that have different husbandry needs, you do not create a "healthier" snake.

You create something "different", something that wouldn't be found in nature. That appeals to some people and I understand that.

The OP asked for opinions. And this is just "mine". I respect that others may disagree ;)

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This is my sisters British bulldog he is 4 years old his back legs are very weak and he can't breathe very well either,because we wanted them to have a certain stance,long back legs n shorter front legs they now have defects,also the tube is so short in the nose to throat that he can't run a lot get out of breath very easily,his name is Albert and we love him very much but sometimes it's very awful seeing wat the human race has done!(excuse his privates)nes comfy sitting like this!second dog is my mixed dog think she is staffy cross 13 years old and never had a thing rong with her,she has lumps n bumps n a grey face but she is really energetic still!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ec1187290b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...69b677602d.jpg


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Yeah , don't they say mongrels are healthier than pedigree dogs !?

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I just want to say that this is a popular myth and isn't true at all LOL. When it comes down to it, it all depends on the pedigree and breeding and genetics, nothing to do with "pure bred" or "mixed". You can have a mixed dog with genetically poor hips, eyes, elbows, or other health problems, you can have a pure bred dog from a pedigree of health tested, physically sound dogs.

The funny thing is that for people who know a thing or two about dogs, this is actually one of the reasons why some people may choose to find a reputable breeder for a puppy with genetically healthy parents/dogs in their pedigree. With mixes or adopted shelter dogs, it's a crapshoot- you may get lucky, you may not, because its genetics are unknown. And of course, there are others who breed dogs even while knowing they may be passing down major physical flaws or health issues, and that is a bad breeder.

Anyway, no idea at all if it applies to other animals in such a specific and vast way like it does for dogs, but that's how it is with dogs haha thought I'd clear it up in the thread!

Are hybrids pretty? Some are

My issue is the ethics of breeding, down the road when you have an animal that looks almost pure but it's not and it was not disclosed at the time of purchase is where my issue lies, and we have seen that in colubrids already and if you invest time and money in a project just to realize that what you are working with is not what you thought it was is not cool.

For people in general you will always have the purists that see those as abominations but those same people see mutations as abominations too.

Bottom line to each their own so long it's done responsibly.

I have less issue with intergrade (though I still believe lineage and percentage should be disclosed)


Please let's keep the subject on track and not derail on dog breeding like it has in the past with the same subject.

Just for the sake of argument is it more difficult to ascertain the needs of an animal who has never been kept in captivity or an animal that has the needs of two species with well understood captive needs?

Since mainland species and island species of retics are isolated it would not suprise me if they are found to be separate species in the future.

As for muddying gene pools, dishonest people will do this regardless of the opinion of the rest of the hobby to make a buck. If you create a situation where hybrid snake breeders are accepted in the hobby then people will be more honest about lineage.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Just for the sake of argument is it more difficult to ascertain the needs of an animal who has never been kept in captivity or an animal that has the needs of two species with well understood captive needs?

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When it comes to heat and humidity (essentially "climate") then no, I don't think it would be more difficult to ascertain the needs of an animal that has never been kept in captivity. As long as you know where that animal came from, and I assume one would. ;) Captivity is never like nature. Its not possible to copy the natural lifestyle exactly into such a relatively small enclosure. But the very basic needs that directly influence health and thriving, such as temperature and humidity, can be re-created. Have to be, actually, in order to be successful.

We all know how important it is to keep our snakes at the correct temperature range and to meet their humidity needs. Even a few degrees off can make the difference of health or an RI . The same goes for humidity. And then you are looking at possible regurges and so on and forth.

As a example, if anyone would keep a Ball Python in the range that a Blood Python needs, and this Ball gets sick and won't thrive, we wouldn't tell the owner that the snake should/might just get used to it, things change during evolution as well, etc. Or to play around with different temps and humidity. We would tell them to get that stuff straight, asap. To the parameters that we know a Ball Python needs.

What is the first thing we tell everyone when there is any problem at all with a snake ? We tell them to check their husbandry. To double check their temps. The humidity.
If you have a snake where there is simply no way to know (aside from experimenting) exactly what the correct heat/humidity/husbandry is, then what? How would one even know what the issue is? It could be temps/humidty, etc. But is it to high, is it to low. Is it something else altogether.

I just don't think its fair to the animals to create one that has a higher chance of "failure" due to error in husbandry. Especially since each hatchling, even from the same clutch, may end up having different needs.


I have to say, this thread is very informative and interesting. To get different viewpoints and opinions. And all stated respectfully without slinging mud. That's the way it should be :)

Ball pythons themselves come from dramatically different environments in Africa. They can be found in both forrest and savanna environments with drastically different temperature profiles and humidits ranges.

Now be forewarned that this totally anecdotal, but I have even noticed that some of my ball pythons prefer different temperature hot spots as well. I have one that seems unhappy with a hot spot any less than 90 degrees where as another that will constantly stay on the cool side at these Temps. Even reading through as much as one can on the Internet there is always a learning curve when it comes to huspandry.

Now I agree someone unfamiliar with snake husbandry should take on the care of unknown crossings of animals, but I think someone who is experienced is fully capable of solving these issues. Not to mention creating hybrids in no way a simple process and takes quite a bit of experience in most cases, so is not undertaken by beginners.

Like plenty have said to each their own. For me if a ball python is bred to a carpet python to produce a carpball and the end goal is that carpball for a pet strictly a pet i'm ok with that. For me hybrids are a interesting and welcome addition to the world of reptiles but again to each their own.

Stuff i want to see is lets say a banana ball python x carpet pairing or lets get more creative and say a pastel ball to a jungle carpet python.

actually i'm very interested in how it compares to dog breeding, especially considering the health defects which are prevalent in both :)

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Originally Posted by Dumdum333

actually i'm very interested in how it compares to dog breeding, especially considering the health defects which are prevalent in both :)

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Since my green comment since to have been an issue for you let me explain why it was there, the original post was on Hybrid Pythons and no mention of comparison with dog breeding was made, case point

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Originally Posted by Dumdum333

Hey!

I was wondering what the general consensus is on hybrid python species. I personally find them so beautiful, but questionably unnatural (although so are dogs I guess).

What types are there
I've heard of burmballs (burmese x ball), bateaters (burm x retic), carpalls (carpet x ball)

Can literally any python breed with any python? And with boas?

It's a whole new bizzare world ��

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We have had many hybrid discussions in the past that got out of hand, got confusing and had to be split and cleaned up hence my post in green to prevent that

I couldn't help but actually LOL when I saw Eric's "thanks" in green! :D

I don't have a problem with hybrids or even locality crosses as long as the buyer is informed about the animal's lineage. There are plenty of folks who just want a pretty pet and have no interest in breeding their animals.

I do have a problem where critters are advertised as having a 100% "locality" background and they don't, because there are breeders trying to preserve those pure lines and it may not be legal any more to import them.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

I couldn't help but actually LOL when I saw Eric's "thanks" in green! :D

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Why?

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Why?

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Was it not intentional?

It came across to me as a humorous way of agreeing to Deb by supporting her use of green. :)

Mod thanks are always in green - just like our names. That's why we post in green when speaking from a Mod perspective versus our own comments. Completely unintentional, but now I totally get what you saw. Ha!