INTRO 101: Recessive/Co Dom/Dom Breeding.

Ive read about each in the stickys more than once but all this info has my head spinning & I just cant make sense of it. I took a break and can back to it a day later but still no go...
I have Albino's (Recessive) and Im thinking of adding a pair or maybe only 1 White Diamond this year from Vin Russo.
How would I go about understanding what is possible breeding one of my Albino's with a White Diamond?
Does that mean some Hatchling of each would be possible or does that mean I may also get
Mixed morphs (Pied) and why?
Please help me understand if you have time. I just don't want the answer. That way I can figure these things out myself in the furure :)

Here is my understanding (if it's wrong, somebody please correct me):

Your Albino is a recessive gene, which means that it got the albino gene from both parents.

The White Diamond is a snake that has 2 Russo genes.

If you pair an Albino with a Russo, they will produce snakes with both an Albino gene and a Russo gene. The Russo will gene will be visible because Albino is recessive.

I think the result will be Russo Het Albino.

To the experts: Am I right?

I'm sorta new and don't know the terms like co-dom, dom. But I'm familiar with the gene calculations.

Albino X White diamond
Will give babies that are Russo het albino.

Albino is recessive so breeding it to anything but albino or het albino (including candy, toffee, etc.) Will yield no visuals.
White Diamond is a super russo, so every baby in the clutch will be russo.

Meaning they will all be russo het albino

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Originally Posted by 619gman

I'm sorta new and don't know the terms like co-dom, dom. But I'm familiar with the gene calculations.

Albino X White diamond
Will give babies that are Russo het albino.

Albino is recessive so breeding it to anything but albino or het albino (including candy, toffee, etc.) Will yield no visuals.
White Diamond is a super russo, so every baby in the clutch will be russo.

Meaning they will all be russo het albino

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

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I'm new to this as well. I'm excited that I was right about what would happen.

The difference between dominant and co-dominant is what happens when a snake has 2 of that gene. With 2 of the same dominant, you end up with that trait. With 2 of the same co-dominant, you end up with a super, like the White Diamond.

Oh OK. So dominant would be like spider, pin. While co-domanint will be like enchi, OD YB. Hmm. Thanks. See we can learn together haha

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by 619gman

I'm sorta new and don't know the terms like co-dom, dom. But I'm familiar with the gene calculations.

Albino X White diamond
Will give babies that are Russo het albino.

Albino is recessive so breeding it to anything but albino or het albino (including candy, toffee, etc.) Will yield no visuals.
White Diamond is a super russo, so every baby in the clutch will be russo.

Meaning they will all be russo het albino

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

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Ok that helps me with some understanding. So taking that lesson and applying it to me breeding my Albino w/a White Diamond the Hatchlings would be White Diamond Morphs Het Albino? So at that point if I took those and Breed them (to eachother) I would get WD or Albino morphs because they are WD het Albino?
I would never get a Albino Pied?

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard?male=&female=

try this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 619gman

I'm sorta new and don't know the terms like co-dom, dom. But I'm familiar with the gene calculations.

Albino X White diamond
Will give babies that are Russo het albino.

Albino is recessive so breeding it to anything but albino or het albino (including candy, toffee, etc.) Will yield no visuals.
White Diamond is a super russo, so every baby in the clutch will be russo.

Meaning they will all be russo het albino

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

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Ok that helps me with some understanding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard?male=&female=

try this

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Nice tool :gj:

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Originally Posted by Mr Sully

Ok that helps me with some understanding. So taking that lesson and applying it to me breeding my Albino w/a White Diamond the Hatchlings would be White Diamond Morphs Het Albino? So at that point if I took those and Breed them (to eachother) I would still get WD or Albino morphs because they are WD het Albino?
I would never get a Albino Pied?

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No, you would get all Russo het Albino, a snake that looks like a Russo but also caries the Albino gene.

Here is how it goes:

Your White Diamond has 2 Russo genes, and your Albino has 2 Albino genes.

WD -> R R
A
|
v

A RA RA


A RA RA


Each possible pairing of genes produces a snake with a Russo gene and an Albino gene. Since the Albino gene is recessive, it will not show. Thus, you get a Russo with an Albino gene.

All hatchlings from this pairing will be Russo het Albino. It order to get another White Diamond, you will need to pair it with something that has Russo in it.

I saw something on Youtube that explained it very well. I'll look for it and post a link.

Here is the link: Exploring Genetics

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Originally Posted by Bassball Fever

No, you would get all Russo het Albino, a snake that looks like a Russo but also caries the Albino gene.

Here is how it goes:

Your White Diamond has 2 Russo genes, and your Albino has 2 Albino genes.

WD -> R R
A
|
v

A RA RA


A RA RA


Each possible pairing of genes produces a snake with a Russo gene and an Albino gene. Since the Albino gene is recessive, it will not show. Thus, you get a Russo with an Albino gene.

All hatchlings from this pairing will be Russo het Albino. It order to get another White Diamond, you will need to pair it with something that has Russo in it.

I saw something on Youtube that explained it very well. I'll look for it and post a link.

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Ok I do understand what your saying now. ..And as you were saying with the WD morphs id have to breed back to a Albino morph with a Het Albino to get Albinos hatchlings again...right?

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Originally Posted by Mr Sully

Ok I do understand what your saying now. ..And as you were saying with the WD morphs id have to breed back to a Albino morph with a Het Albino to get Albinos hatchlings again...right?

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Yes,you would get a mix of Russo het Albino and Albino.

I am lost has to why you would think that those animals would ever produce a Pied, there is no pied gene in your albino and no pied gene in your white diamond correct?

To produce a Pied your Albino and your White diamond would need to be het pied (both of them)

So if you pair an albino to a white diamond you would get a clutch of Russo Het Albino nothing more.

White Diamond is a Super Russo

Any chance you are mistaking White Diamond and White Wedding? http://roussisreptiles.com/our_colle...white-wedding/

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I am lost has to why you would think that those animals would ever produce a Pied, there is no pied gene in your albino and no pied gene in your white diamond correct?

To produce a Pied your Albino and your White diamond would need to be het pied (both of them)

So if you pair an albino to a white diamond you would get a clutch of Russo Het Albino nothing more.

White Diamond is a Super Russo

Any chance you are mistaking White Diamond and White Wedding? http://roussisreptiles.com/our_colle...white-wedding/

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I believe they were under the impression that pied is half leucistic. Since one of their adults is leucistic and one is not they assumed the babies would be half leucistic. OP correct me if I misinterpreted.

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Originally Posted by kxr

I believe they were under the impression that pied is half leucistic. Since one of their adults is leucistic and one is not they assumed the babies would be half leucistic. OP correct me if I misinterpreted.

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You hit it on the head.. As I was saying Ive never studied breeding or the differnet morphs until reading stickys on here. Ive owned Albino Snakes since ive been a adult (Burm/Balls) solely since 1996 and before that (as a kid) 2 Normals, one ball & again one Burm.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I am lost has to why you would think that those animals would ever produce a Pied, there is no pied gene in your albino and no pied gene in your white diamond correct?

To produce a Pied your Albino and your White diamond would need to be het pied (both of them)

So if you pair an albino to a white diamond you would get a clutch of Russo Het Albino nothing more.

White Diamond is a Super Russo

Any chance you are mistaking White Diamond and White Wedding? http://roussisreptiles.com/our_colle...white-wedding/

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Yeah Deborah as KXR thought I asummed that Pied came from some Leucistic at one point.

Genes come in pairs. A ball python has over 20000 pairs of genes. So the first thing to do is to figure out what gene pairs produce the snake's appearance.

White diamond mated to albino is a two gene pair problem.

White diamond snake's genes:
gene pair 1 = two Russo genes (R//R)
gene pair 2 = two normal genes (+//+)

Albino snake's genes:
gene pair 1 = two normal genes (+//+)
gene pair 2 = two albino genes (a//a)

// stands for a pair of chromosomes. R//+ would means that there is a Russo gene in the DNA molecule in one chromosome and a normal gene (+) in the corresponding location in the DNA molecule in the other chromosome.

To the best of our knowledge and belief, all the gene pairs except those two are made up of two normal genes. We can ignore all those other pairs. This includes the gene pair that holds two copies of the normal gene that corresponds to the pied mutant gene.

Each baby gets a gene from each of the father's gene pairs. And each of the babies gets a gene from each of the mother's gene pairs.

The white diamond gives a Russo gene from the first gene pair and a normal gene from the second gene pair. There are two copies of the Russo gene in the first gene pair. It doesn't matter which gene is given. And there are two copies of the normal gene in the second gene pair. It doesn't matter which copy is given there, either.

The albino gives a normal gene from the first gene pair and an albino gene from the second gene pair.

When you set up your Punnett square, put a R + on the top and a + a on the side. This is a one box Punnett square--all babies are R//+ +//a. In other words, every baby has a Russo gene and a normal gene in gene pair 1 and an albino gene and a normal gene in gene pair 2.

Assigning appearances to the genes is the hardest part. These snakes are Russo het albino. A Russo is lighter than a normal ball python but not white like the white diamond. So there is one appearance for each of the three possible gene pairs. The three gene pairs are 2 normal genes (+//+ --> normal appearance), a Russo and a normal gene (R//+ --> Russo appearance), and 2 Russo genes (R//R --> white diamond). When each of the three possible gene pairs produces a different appearance, the mutant gene is codominant to the normal gene.

There are three possible gene pairs for the albino gene pair (pair 2). 2 normal genes (+//+ --> normal appearance), an albino and a normal gene (+//a = het albino --> normal appearance), and 2 albino genes (a//a --> albino). Two appearances from three gene pairs with the het albino looking normal means the albino gene is recessive to the normal gene.

FYI, assigning appearances to a dominant mutant gene is the mirror image of the recessive mutant gene. There are 3 possible gene pairs--2 copies of the mutant (D for dominant) gene (D//D --> mutant appearance), a dominant gene and a normal gene (D//+ --> appearance is same as for D//D snake), and 2 normal genes (+//+ --> normal appearance).

Take a snake with a mutant gene paired with a normal gene. The snake's appearance determines whether the mutant gene is classified as dominant, codominant or recessive to the normal gene. The mutant gene is dominant to the normal gene if the above snake looks like a snake with two copies of the mutant gene. The mutant gene is recessive to the normal gene if the above snake looks like a snake with two copies of the normal gene. The mutant gene is codominant to the normal gene if the snake does not look like a snake with two copies of the mutant gene and does not look like a snake with two copies of the normal gene.

By the way, here is a link to a genetics guide I whipped up a while back: http://www.redtailboas.com/f115/no-f...s-guide-53782/

Hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Genes come in pairs. A ball python has over 20000 pairs of genes. So the first thing to do is to figure out what gene pairs produce the snake's appearance.

White diamond mated to albino is a two gene pair problem.

White diamond snake's genes:
gene pair 1 = two Russo genes (R//R)
gene pair 2 = two normal genes (+//+)

Albino snake's genes:
gene pair 1 = two normal genes (+//+)
gene pair 2 = two albino genes (a//a)

// stands for a pair of chromosomes. R//+ would means that there is a Russo gene in the DNA molecule in one chromosome and a normal gene (+) in the corresponding location in the DNA molecule in the other chromosome.

To the best of our knowledge and belief, all the gene pairs except those two are made up of two normal genes. We can ignore all those other pairs. This includes the gene pair that holds two copies of the normal gene that corresponds to the pied mutant gene.

Each baby gets a gene from each of the father's gene pairs. And each of the babies gets a gene from each of the mother's gene pairs.

The white diamond gives a Russo gene from the first gene pair and a normal gene from the second gene pair. There are two copies of the Russo gene in the first gene pair. It doesn't matter which gene is given. And there are two copies of the normal gene in the second gene pair. It doesn't matter which copy is given there, either.

The albino gives a normal gene from the first gene pair and an albino gene from the second gene pair.

When you set up your Punnett square, put a R + on the top and a + a on the side. This is a one box Punnett square--all babies are R//+ +//a. In other words, every baby has a Russo gene and a normal gene in gene pair 1 and an albino gene and a normal gene in gene pair 2.

Assigning appearances to the genes is the hardest part. These snakes are Russo het albino. A Russo is lighter than a normal ball python but not white like the white diamond. So there is one appearance for each of the three possible gene pairs. The three gene pairs are 2 normal genes (+//+ --> normal appearance), a Russo and a normal gene (R//+ --> Russo appearance), and 2 Russo genes (R//R --> white diamond). When each of the three possible gene pairs produces a different appearance, the mutant gene is codominant to the normal gene.

There are three possible gene pairs for the albino gene pair (pair 2). 2 normal genes (+//+ --> normal appearance), an albino and a normal gene (+//a = het albino --> normal appearance), and 2 albino genes (a//a --> albino). Two appearances from three gene pairs with the het albino looking normal means the albino gene is recessive to the normal gene.

FYI, assigning appearances to a dominant mutant gene is the mirror image of the recessive mutant gene. There are 3 possible gene pairs--2 copies of the mutant (D for dominant) gene (D//D --> mutant appearance), a dominant gene and a normal gene (D//+ --> appearance is same as for D//D snake), and 2 normal genes (+//+ --> normal appearance).

Take a snake with a mutant gene paired with a normal gene. The snake's appearance determines whether the mutant gene is classified as dominant, codominant or recessive to the normal gene. The mutant gene is dominant to the normal gene if the above snake looks like a snake with two copies of the mutant gene. The mutant gene is recessive to the normal gene if the above snake looks like a snake with two copies of the normal gene. The mutant gene is codominant to the normal gene if the snake does not look like a snake with two copies of the mutant gene and does not look like a snake with two copies of the normal gene.

By the way, here is a link to a genetics guide I whipped up a while back: http://www.redtailboas.com/f115/no-f...s-guide-53782/

Hope that helps.

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Ive been through the Stickys and didnt see your write up... This is a great and educational reply. Wow, I'll be reading this a few more times but you explained this in depth better than anything ive ever read :gj:

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Originally Posted by Mr Sully

Ive been through the Stickys and didnt see your write up... This is a great and educational reply. Wow, I'll be reading this a few more times but you explained this in depth better than anything ive ever read :gj:

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Also, if you did want to learn more about different combinations of genes so that you may someday get into (more serious) breeding world of ball pythons and morph market are amazing resources. I know a lot of people were linking WOB's genetic calculator but you can also search that site to see what each gene looks like on its own and in different combinations. Warning: there is A LOT of information there lol

Morph market is good because it sometimes has animals that aren't on WOBs and it gives you an idea of pricing (if you're in the US) so you'll know which animals will fit into your budget while still allowing you to produce some of the animals you want the most.

***Appolgies in advance if this is what was explained in that previous post***

Strictly speaking as others have explained and I'm sure you understand it all comes down to the alleles. If an animal inherits a co-Dom allele from both parents it will be the super (ex. White wedding) if an animal inherits a recessive allele from both parents it will be a visual recessive (ex. albino). So if you look at it this way you can see that both of your animals have two copies of the same allele and are thus homozygous for that trait. For any given trait the babies inherit one copy of each parent's alleles. Since the parents are both homozygous they will always pass on the same type of allele to the babies thus all of the babies will be Russo het albino.

It gets more complicated when you aren't working with homozygous animals because then you start playing with the odds. If you followed the above you can see that if one of the parents is heterozygous (only carrying one allele for the trait) it will only pass that allele to 50% of the offspring (passing the other "normal" allele the rest of the time). Thus Russo X normal = 50% Russo & 50% normal. It gets more complicated when you add more genes or are working with recessive genetics (since recessive hets or heterozygotes are visually normal) so I won't talk about that.

Feel free to post if you have any more questions. I love talking genetics haha

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Originally Posted by Mr Sully

Ive been through the Stickys and didnt see your write up... This is a great and educational reply. Wow, I'll be reading this a few more times but you explained this in depth better than anything ive ever read :gj:

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Flattery will get you everywhere. :D

My guide isn't on ball-pythons.net. Use the link, please.
http://www.redtailboas.com/f115/no-f...s-guide-53782/

I'm always willing to talk genetics. I try to hit the genetics forum here every day or two. I was just lucky to notice this thread.