Help for a newbie - Python On Cold Side!

Hello everyone,

I have never owned a snake before and am in a bit of a pickle...

After one of my cats brought home a garter snake last Fall I fell in love with the creatures and decided on keeping a Ball Python as a pet. I researched all I could about these snakes and have done the best I can to establish a good habitat to meet all its needs. I purchased a hatchling (hatched August 2016) from a local breeder last Thursday. It spent a few hours on the hot side under the hide before migrating to the cold side. It has not left since. Today is Monday. She DOES move around quite a bit at night when I turn off the hot-side lamp, but there's more...

As you can see in the pictures I have attached, this is a 20-gallon tank. I have secured aluminum foil around the OUTSIDE of the tank on the back, both sides, and the top (with squares cut out for the lamps), leaving ONLY the front open for viewing. I have a hot side with a UTH and a 50-WAT overhead heat lamp. Hot side temp is kept at approximately 90 degrees. The cold side also has an overhead nighttime heat lamp that I keep on constantly even during the day (the hot side lamp is turned off at night). The cold side is kept at approximately 80 degrees. The tank also has a heavy flat-bottom water dish in the middle of the tank. Foliage and vines run throughout. I have been having a bit of trouble keeping the humidity levels up, so I've been misting the tank about 3x day. If I don't do this, the levels tend to fall to 30% which as I understand is too low.

At first, I thought my BP was insecure at the size of the hot-side hide, since she is just a hatchling. I moved it around a bit and hung some of the plastic plants so that they hung somewhat in front of the opening, thereby providing a bit of privacy. This does not seem to have helped. Perhaps I need to replace the hide altogether until she has grown??

As I mentioned before, she migrated to the cold side and hasn't really left except at night. Even when she is on the cold side, she likes to lay ON TOP of the hide and NOT under it. In addition, during the last 24-48hrs she has climbed high up into the vines of the cold side, just under the cold side heat lamp, and seems to be basking there. She's been doing this both during the day and during the night.

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm afraid she is too cold, or that the tank is too big for her to feel secure, or that something else is off that I am missing here. I'm brand new to keeping any kind of snake, and I just want to make sure I'm giving this snake the best possible life -- food, security, comfort, etc.
Is this just a quirk of my particular BP and I'm being paranoid? Or is this some symptom of something I am doing wrong?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I look forward to reading your response!
THANKS!

P.S. I have not yet handled her or tried to feed her. I have left her alone so as to adjust to her new environment, but I will need to try to feed her within the next 24-48hrs. Her last meal was on 1/27 according to her breeder card.


http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/...psejumtwuv.jpg


http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/...pshsapsqxj.jpg


http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/...psqx4clfyr.jpg


http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7qww99tm.jpg


http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/...pspzgssx3g.jpg

Get an accurite and ditch the stick ons and you'll then have a better idea on temps. Are the che's on dimmers or ??

Not currently using ceramic heat emitters.
I have 3 heat sources - 1 daytime lamp on the hot side; 50W. 1 nighttime lamp on the cold side (that stays on constantly, even during the day so as to maintain level ambient temperatures); 50W. And 1 Large UTH from ZooMed stuck under the hot side hide.

I will look into the accurite thermometers. After I get advice on what to do here I plan to make a run to pick up the appropriate supplies.

welcome to the forum! most people recommend 6qt tubs for hatchlings. this is a great link to help hatchlings. i would recommend reading it!

however, for your set up now: some general husbandry observations/tips/questions based on your post:

a tip for her security: it's a good idea to have two identical hides on each side of the gradient. with 2 identical hides, the snake doesn't have to choose which one they like and sacrifice regulating for security.

you mention your temps; what are you using to monitor temps/humidity? ALL sources of heat MUST be regulated by a thermoSTAT. i see an analog attached to the side there, but unfortunately those are practically worthless in terms of accuracy.

if you're having trouble with humidity, bulbs definitely don't help. i wouldn't use them if it's at all possible to maintain proper temps. however you can try to add a larger water dish on the hot side to bring humidity up.

I just came across that link this morning actually and was considering it.

To answer your questions; I do not currently have a thermostat attached to the UTH or the overhead lamps.
Looks like I'll add that to my shopping list for this afternoon.

Right now I have a thermometer on the hot side and the cold side, and a hydrometer in the middle of the tank.
However, I was not aware that these are practically useless :( I suppose I'll have to drop the extra cash for digitals in addition to a matching hide(s).

Would you recommend I transfer her into a tub then?
Or would trying to adjust the habitat set-up be more efficient?

Thanks so much!
I really want to do the right thing here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

I do not currently have a thermostat attached to the UTH or the overhead lamps.
Looks like I'll add that to my shopping list for this afternoon.

---

please unplug the UTH immediately! they are dangerous when unregulated and reach over 100° easily and quickly!
here is an Amazon link to a cheap thermostat i have used. it's on/off style but it works well when properly set up to a UTH. that thermostat does not work for bulbs; i believe bulbs need a lamp dimmer (found at lowes). i don't use bulbs so please listen to others about how to properly set them up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Right now I have a thermometer on the hot side and the cold side, and a hydrometer in the middle of the tank.
However, I was not aware that these are practically useless :( I suppose I'll have to drop the extra cash for digitals in addition to a matching hide(s).

---

it happens: i had those too when i first got my ball, but no more than a week as i realized they were highly unreliable. another Amazon link to the digital thermometer/hygrometer i use, but i got mine at walmart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Would you recommend I transfer her into a tub then?
Or would trying to adjust the habitat set-up be more efficient?

---

i'll leave that to someone more experienced to give a proper answer. personally, i'd try to fix the set-up she has now. it's possible that she can thrive in a 20gal, as i had a hatchling do well in a 20gal, but that's no guarantee and the 6qt tub is a tried and tested method for helping hatchlings that are having problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Thanks so much!
I really want to do the right thing here.

---

absolutely. i'm actually dealing with a stressed hatchling myself right now. i've got to make adjustments to her tank (happening today, actually) and hopefully she'll settle and eat for me! if my adjustments don't work and she refuses to eat a couple more times, i'm changing to the 6qt tub.
good luck! you're doing just fine. keep asking questions, we're all here to help.

OK. I ran upstairs and unplugged the UTH right away.

I just called every local pet store I could and it looks like none of them carry UTH thermostats (including the big chains).
I'll need to order this online through the link you provided (thanks much for that!).
But this begs the question; with the UTH now unplugged will she be alright for a few days while I wait for delivery?

For the hides and the thermostats I'm headed into Walmart this afternoon to pick them up.

I really cant thank you enough.
I'm sure my snake does too!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

But this begs the question; with the UTH now unplugged will she be alright for a few days while I wait for delivery?

---

she will be fine for a few days as long as your other temps are within proper range. they handle cold temps much better than hot temps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

I really cant thank you enough.
I'm sure my snake does too!

---

i'm sure she does. :P hopefully others can chime in and answer the questions i could not.

Since you're gonna be shopping look at what that stuff will cost then compare the extra now to upgrade to something like a t8. I spent alot making a glass enclosure work, it's now in the garage and a 2nd t8 is on its way.

Zoo Med UTH's get up to 141° so thats why your snake wont go in the hot side Hide. I have a 30 Gallon for quarantine and use a Dimmer from Lowes on the UTH. I only run it 3/4 and its 95 on the outside of the glass bottom and that pans out to 90 inside above Butcher Paper. Keep your substrate thin where the UTH is and you have to let the UTH regulate up to eight hours when it's on a dimmer to find the temperature. The dimmers cut the electricity down and it takes a while for them to max out and regulate. Start around 3/4 and that should be somewhere between 80-90 on a Zoo Med using the Lowes 4' dimmer cord and raise/lower from there.
https://m.lowes.com/pd/Lutron-Creden...Dimmer/4462387

Kind thanks all!

I made a quick trip to pick up some supplies.
I grabbed 2 of the digital Acurite Thermometers and in case I switch her to the tub method I also grabbed a 6.2qt plastic tub with latching lid (into which I will drill air holes) and 2 plastic 6" bowls that I plan to cut for hides (they did not have any of the flower pot holders like the article called for).

I'll run by Lowes later this afternoon and grab that Lutron dimmer. Thank you!

For now...
Step 1 - Replace crappy stick-on thermos with new digital acurites.
Step 2 - Drill holes in 6qt tub and cut plastic bowls for hides in case BP needs to be transfered.
Step 3 - Go to Lowes for Lutron dimmer
Step 4 - Plug in dimmer to UTH, wait 8 hours, measure temps and humidity

I'll upload updated pics after I get all of this done to make sure I'm on the right track.

Again, thank all of you very much!

good to hear! keep us updated :)

Cool. Glad things ate coming togther. Have fun setting things up :gj:

I got the new thermometers in the tank and old ones removed.

I got the dimmer connected to the UTH and turned to a little less than 3/4.

I got the two plastic bowls cut for identical hides (I plan to replace these with actual hides instead of makeshift eventually, but wanted to get her set up the two identical hides sooner rather than later).

So, some updates;
- Humidity levels are right around 40 degrees even with the lamps on. This is much better than I previously thought! Even though it still doesn't seem enough (I should shoot for 50-60?).
- It does not look I'm getting the proper temperature gradient throughout the tank. After leaving the UTH w/ dimmer on for 4 hrs, I'm reading 84 on the hot side, 81 on the cold side. I'm not too concerned just yet as I was previously instructed to leave it go for about 8 hrs in order to let the dimmer do its job and allow the UTH to reach its proper adjusted level. I'll have to measure it tomorrow after 8 hours. I'll unplug it tonight so as to not take any chances. My first thought is that I wonder if I need to cut the night lamp off during the day? I've been running it day and night (while cutting the hot side lamp at night) because I was trying to maintain the proper temps. Early indications may be that I was overreacting due to reliance on poor thermometers.
- BP continued basking for several hours under the hot-side lamp before coming off the vine and really moving all around the tank (approximately 10:00pm). I believe she is looking for a place to sleep? She used the cold-side hide once as after I took the old mismatched hides out I covered her with the new plastic bowl hide I made this afternoon. It fit her just fine and she stayed in for a little while before poking her head out to check out what I was doing. Then she slithered out and hasn't gone back in either hide since.

I get the feeling BP's require a good amount of patience, which is fine, I just hope I'm doing the right things here.
Giving it my all! :P

I'll try to update with some pictures tomorrow.

Thank you again for all your help!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

- Humidity levels are right around 40 degrees even with the lamps on. This is much better than I previously thought! Even though it still doesn't seem enough (I should shoot for 50-60?).

---

yes, i try not to drop below 55%. 65-70% i believe is ideal. you could try sphagnum moss: dampen a handful and place it in the enclosure or in the hot hide. it works great during sheds!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

- It does not look I'm getting the proper temperature gradient throughout the tank. After leaving the UTH w/ dimmer on for 4 hrs, I'm reading 84 on the hot side, 81 on the cold side. I'm not too concerned just yet as I was previously instructed to leave it go for about 8 hrs in order to let the dimmer do its job and allow the UTH to reach its proper adjusted level. I'll have to measure it tomorrow after 8 hours. I'll unplug it tonight so as to not take any chances. My first thought is that I wonder if I need to cut the night lamp off during the day? I've been running it day and night (while cutting the hot side lamp at night) because I was trying to maintain the proper temps. Early indications may be that I was overreacting due to reliance on poor thermometers.

---

i don't use heat lamps so allow others to help you here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

- BP continued basking for several hours under the hot-side lamp before coming off the vine and really moving all around the tank (approximately 10:00pm). I believe she is looking for a place to sleep? She used the cold-side hide once as after I took the old mismatched hides out I covered her with the new plastic bowl hide I made this afternoon. It fit her just fine and she stayed in for a little while before poking her head out to check out what I was doing. Then she slithered out and hasn't gone back in either hide since.

---

changing the hides will stress them out a bit and make them feel uneasy; give her some time to adjust. sitting on top of the hides is a definite sign of stress: "a hiding ball is a happy ball." i'd say monitor her enclosure, temps and all, and try to pin-point a stress issue. feel free to post pictures and ask questions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

I get the feeling BP's require a good amount of patience, which is fine, I just hope I'm doing the right things here.
Giving it my all! :P

I'll try to update with some pictures tomorrow.

Thank you again for all your help!

---

there's a user here (can't remember who) whose signature says something like: "ball pythons are consistent in their inconsistency." they require time to "dial in" so to speak, and get just right. like i said before, you are well on your way to helping her. you asking questions on the forum is already a sign of commitment. you're doing fine! can't wait for pics!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

I got the new thermometers in the tank and old ones removed.

I got the dimmer connected to the UTH and turned to a little less than 3/4.

I got the two plastic bowls cut for identical hides (I plan to replace these with actual hides instead of makeshift eventually, but wanted to get her set up the two identical hides sooner rather than later).

So, some updates;
- Humidity levels are right around 40 degrees even with the lamps on. This is much better than I previously thought! Even though it still doesn't seem enough (I should shoot for 50-60?).
- It does not look I'm getting the proper temperature gradient throughout the tank. After leaving the UTH w/ dimmer on for 4 hrs, I'm reading 84 on the hot side, 81 on the cold side. I'm not too concerned just yet as I was previously instructed to leave it go for about 8 hrs in order to let the dimmer do its job and allow the UTH to reach its proper adjusted level. I'll have to measure it tomorrow after 8 hours. I'll unplug it tonight so as to not take any chances.

I'll try to update with some pictures tomorrow.

Thank you again for all your help!

---

Before you had it running wide open so it is fine for tonight now up to 3/4.. It wont go above 90 at less than 3/4... It is going to drop a little at night anyway because the air cools off because its only running on a percentage of power, so if you get it to 90 at 1-2pm on the Inside Glass during the day it will drop to 88 at night because the lower power wont alow it to add more power/heat to rise the temp as the air cools. Thats Fine though. So make sure not to adjust it in the evening, only do that during the day when air temps are highest/warmest.. You will have to do this again come Spring/Summer when indoor/outdoor temp rise.

I'm new to BP's but I have been building enclosures of my own for various critters for a couple years now. I have given up on using heat lamps whenever possible, they typically require having an open top which makes it very challenging to finally dial in humidity and temperature gradient and on a thermostat the bulbs have a tendency to burn out in short order. you might consider getting two Jump start thermostats (many folks report good luck with them and they are quite affordable), or one herpstat 2 (much more spendy but more fancy and can handle two heating sources independently). In any case, using thermostats to control an UTH at each end, one that keeps the hide more in the upper 80's, the other in the upper 70's. I learned from reading all the helpful posts on this forum that there are various temp guns that are pretty cheap, once I got one it made life so much easier, allowing me to check the actual body temperature of the snake and each hide, while relying on other thermometers to keep a general eye on temps. I track three temps, the temp in each hide and the general ambient temperature at the level where they will most likely hang out if they come out at night (making sure it's no lower than 75). Sealing up the lid most of the way helps hold humidity in too, but con't really be done with a light unless you regularly add moisture to the enclosure and you have to make sure you keep whatever you cover the tank with away from the light so it won't catch fire. taping seran wrap to the outside top is a cheap and easy way to hold moisture in. I use insulation around the side to hold in the heat or if you have the tools or some help from someone who does, turning the tank on it's side and making a plexiglass front with sliding door is very helpful... these snakes seem to appreciate a more closed in and secure home than a off the shelf glass tank, leaving one side open to see into seems like a nice compromise.

good on you for noticing your snake wasn't happy and being willing to adjust things for the better!

Ok so more updates.

I left the UTH running through the night, after 12 hours I woke up this morning and checked the temps.
VERY STRANGE!! -- Hot side and Cold side were both at 73 degrees. Hot side humidity was 37 degrees, cold side humidity at 50 degrees.

This just boggles my mind. I dont know how this could be happening.
How could the hot side and cold side be the same temperature?
I left the UTH running for 12 hours straight! Shouldn't it have warmed the hot side? (I do not have a heating mat under the cold side) I had the dimmer set to a little less than 3/4. I dialed it up a bit this morning and turned her lamps back on to get the temps up (I typically turn off the hot side lamp at night).

As I write this, the hot side is sitting at 84 degrees with 34 humidity -- cold side at 79 degrees with 40 humidity. So we're ALMOST there, but not quite.

She has been exploring her new hides a bit this morning by ducking her head inside and looking around.
She's actually resting in the substrate over the UTH right now as opposed to ONLY climbing and basking all the time.
So both of these are good signs, I just want to get these dag-gone temperatures at the right levels! :P

After going through this, I can say without a doubt that I would not recommend an open-topped tank for fellow beginners.
It seems extremely touchy to dial-in effectively.

I believe my next order of business today is going to be insulating the 4 sides I previously covered with tinfoil (the back, both sides, and 3/4 of the top). I plan to do this with cardboard and cloth while leaving the tinfoil in place, so that the insulation is layers as follows - tinfoil against the outside glass, cardboard against the tinfoil, cloth against the cardboard.

I'll post some pics later this morning.

keep double checking your temps. I haven't seen my BP's in days, mine never explore. She still maybe stressed if shes out and about. Also BP's don't bask per say, unless they need more heat and are trying to get closer to the heat lamps you have. good job so far, keep it up!

yes, keep double-checking. a UTH only heats the underside of the enclosure for belly heat; they do little for ambient (air) temperatures. is that where your confusion comes from? ambient temps shouldn't drop below 75°, but insulation should help keep some heat in. did you stop using the bulbs? and how are you measuring the hot spot now?

I think my big issue is how to maintain the 90-hot/80-cold temps.

Getting back to basics = My original understanding was that I needed a UTH for the hot side, 2 hides, a water dish, and substrate at minimum.
From what I understood, the UTH would help elevate the hot-side temps and, if needed, CHE or Bulbs could be used as a boost in reaching these temps.
This is what I was working from when setting up the tank.

So with that in mind, I have been using bulbs to get the air temps into the correct zones (my goals are 90-hot, 80-cold) and have not yet stopped using them. I knew the UTH heated the underside glass so as to provide belly-heat, but I thought it also served to heat the hot-side overall. Apparently I was mistaken. Instead of bulbs, I assume ceramic heat emitters would be better for maintaining ambient temps? I know they would help retain higher levels of humidity. I picked up a timer yesterday when I was at Lowes because I thought it would come in handy. Perhaps I could attach it to the CHE and set it to cycle off around 11pm or so, kicking back on around 4am. Then, since they don't produce light, I could just let the natural sunlight coming through the window next to the tank provide the day/night cycle (even though its not much) once I got the correct temps dialed in.

In any case, I have been using a probe to measure the temps of the hides, but I'm nabbing a temp-gun today that should be more accurate and easy to use.

Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

I think my big issue is how to maintain the 90-hot/80-cold temps.

---

for ambient temps? an ambient temperature gradient is not necessary. i keep my ambient temps around 77-79° throughout the enclosure (i try to keep it around 80° but it's winter). as long as your ambient temps don't drop below 75° the snake will be fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Getting back to basics = My original understanding was that I needed a UTH for the hot side, 2 hides, a water dish, and substrate at minimum.
From what I understood, the UTH would help elevate the hot-side temps and, if needed, CHE or Bulbs could be used as a boost in reaching these temps.
This is what I was working from when setting up the tank.

---

you're not wrong: the UTH is to maintain constant belly heat for regulation, bulbs/CHE help bump up ambient temperatures so it's not too cold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

So with that in mind, I have been using bulbs to get the air temps into the correct zones (my goals are 90-hot, 80-cold)

---

i addressed the ambient gradient above

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

I assume ceramic heat emitters would be better for maintaining ambient temps? I know they would help retain higher levels of humidity. I picked up a timer yesterday when I was at Lowes because I thought it would come in handy. Perhaps I could attach it to the CHE and set it to cycle off around 11pm or so, kicking back on around 4am. Then, since they don't produce light, I could just let the natural sunlight coming through the window next to the tank provide the day/night cycle (even though its not much) once I got the correct temps dialed in.

---

100% correct and i would recommend the CHE (though i don't use one).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

I have been using a probe to measure the temps of the hides, but I'm nabbing a temp-gun today that should be more accurate and easy to use.

Thoughts?

---

temps guns will give you peace of mind in knowing exactly what's going on; definitely grab one.

you're almost to perfection! woo!!!

If you don't use bulbs or CHE's, do you mind if I ask what you do use?

My BP was due for her first feeding today, but considering all the shenanigans I've pulled with her enclosure over the last 72hrs I think I'll give her an extra day or two to calm down before I try to dangle a mouse in her face :P

Again, I can't thank you enough for the help here.
It's been one helluva ride getting this set up accurately, and I'm FINALLY on the edge of being there! I can feel it! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

If you don't use bulbs or CHE's, do you mind if I ask what you do use?

---

i use a space heater for the room they're in. it has a built-in thermostat so it's set for 76°; kicks on at 75° and shuts off at 77°.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

My BP was due for her first feeding today, but considering all the shenanigans I've pulled with her enclosure over the last 72hrs I think I'll give her an extra day or two to calm down before I try to dangle a mouse in her face :P

---

not a bad idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Again, I can't thank you enough for the help here.
It's been one helluva ride getting this set up accurately, and I'm FINALLY on the edge of being there! I can feel it! :)

---

i was where you were at one point, too. we were all newbies at some point. it's exciting when everything starts dialing in, isn't it!? :D

Ordered the temp gun today and got a 100W CHE.

I replaced the daytime lamp with the CHE and moved the daytime lamp to the place where the night lamp used to be.
Right now the plan is to no longer use the night lamp at all and to only use the day lamp when needed to see inside the enclosure (the room it is kept in isn't very bright).
Meanwhile, I have the CHE now plugged into a timer - cycling off at 11pm and cycling back on at 4am.
I did all of the above tonight, misted the tank, then waited an hour or two, checked temps...temps have FALLEN 6 degrees on both sides, humidity levels are already rising (yay!)
I'm not too surprised as the lid was off with no ambient heat source for half an hour or so while I worked on getting everything in place.
I'll check the temps again in another hour or two before I hit the sack to make sure things are looking proper.
Really trying hard for that 90-50/80-50 mark, but good lord is it ever finicky, even with the proper gear!

The BP actually came over to the hot side for the first time since I got her and laid in the substrate outside of her hide with the upper 1/2 of her body over the UTH!! :D I'll take a victory where I can get it!
She laid there forever...several hours at least, not moving a muscle. After I got back from running some errands later this evening, however, she was right back up in the vines again, which is where she is as I write this.
My thoughts are that I need to give her some time to adjust and not rush her, let her take it at her own pace. She was obviously comfortable on the UTH today, at least for a few hours, and she has checked out the hides on several occasions, so I think I'm on the right track here.

I was too busy to snap pics tonight, but I'll grab a few in the morning and get them posted.
I have a client that is absolutely scared to death of snakes coming in the morning and it should be lots of fun seeing her face when she sees the tank! ;)

just keep monitoring, you're a few ticks on the dial away. 😀
seeing them settle down is always a plus, definite victory! i can't recall, but 3/4 sides are covered with dark paper/fabric yes? just another way to help security.
temp gun is going to help with the tiny adjustments for perfection.
you've done awesome for her!!! we'd love pics. don't be afraid to ask more questions if she's still having trouble.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

I think my big issue is how to maintain the 90-hot/80-cold temps.

Getting back to basics = My original understanding was that I needed a UTH for the hot side, 2 hides, a water dish, and substrate at minimum.
From what I understood, the UTH would help elevate the hot-side temps and, if needed, CHE or Bulbs could be used as a boost in reaching these temps.
Thoughts?

---

Sorry I missed this after we were talking.
What I meant about the UTH and a dimmer is for Belly heat only, not air temps. As long as your snake has 91 dergrees in either Belly or Air (ambient) temps then your ok. With that said now work on the cool side... 76-80 so they can regulate/cool themselves if they want. You can use the CHE/Heat Lamp ect..for a cool ambiant temp. For 10-20 Gallon tank use a 60 watt CHE. If you use a larger CHE you will need a thermistat/dimmer as you only want to get 76-80 temps for cool side.
Your BP is safe now with the UTH is at 88-91 and not burning him so relax and get your cool side dialed in when you can.
In the 1990's most of us only used heat mats & heat rocks and our BP's & Burms were fine. Not that we havent learned better ways now. My burm is almost 20 years old now and for the first 10 years all he had was a Heat Rock or UTH.

I have a 100W CHE on the warm side right now.
Should I use a dimmer even though its on the warm side?
So far it does not seem to be emitting as much heat as the day bulb did, but it is also night so I need to keep that in mind (cooler air temp).
I'll be measuring the temps again tomorrow during the day to get a more accurate reading.

Right now, at 10:44pm EST, I'm reading as follows;
HOT ~ 83 degrees
COLD ~ 77 degrees

The timer on the CHE will kick off in about 15 minutes which will cool it a little more than this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Should I use a dimmer even though it's on the warm side?

---

i would say yes. all sources of heat must be regulated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Right now, at 10:44pm EST, I'm reading as follows;
HOT ~ 83 degrees
COLD ~ 77 degrees

---

these are ambient temps, yes? if so those are good!!! the CHE is doing its job. yay!

A lot of people think baby ball pythons are insecure in a large space to a point, it's true that these snakes feel uncomfortable left in a wide open space. They're secretive snakes. But provide the smaller spaces within the large tank. Lots of hides, tons of cover with foliage and such. Your snake should be okay :). Get it a thermostat ASAP tho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok gotcha. I thought I was overcrowding her, but I'll go ahead and put a few of the plants and stuff back in tomorrow to give her more foliage cover.
Yes, those are ambient temps I reported :) I'm looking forward to measuring the daytime temps tomorrow to see if the CHE can get the hot side to the 90 degree mark.
Then it will just be a matter of getting that humidity up there!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

I have a 100W CHE on the warm side right now.
Should I use a dimmer even though its on the warm side?
So far it does not seem to be emitting as much heat as the day bulb did, but it is also night so I need to keep that in mind (cooler air temp).
I'll be measuring the temps again tomorrow during the day to get a more accurate reading.

Right now, at 10:44pm EST, I'm reading as follows;
HOT ~ 83 degrees
COLD ~ 77 degrees

The timer on the CHE will kick off in about 15 minutes which will cool it a little more than this.

---

Ok thats fine.. So are you using the CHE & UTH on the warm side? The reason I ask is that the CHE takes a long time to heat the tank up (if you remove the lid it starts all over) but as it gets hotter and hotter if its above a hide then that Hide can turn into a oven.... But you also mentioned a timer? I might of missed that post, whats the timer for? You want the CHE to run 24/7 to hold temps..

Yes, I am using a CHE and UTH on the hot side. For the time being I have stopped using the bulbs all together.
Should I move the CHE to the middle of the tank instead of being directly over the hot side?

I put the CHE on a timer mainly for the nighttime temp drop (simulation of night temp decline).
It is set to cut off at 11pm and resume at 4am.

You know what your looking for now & theres several ways to accomplish it, now its just you dialing it all in to where you want it..
I'll give you a quicky on how I have a Quarantine tank.. Its like yours, glass w/screen lid.
I have 3 sides cardboard, Lid has Duraplex plexiglas zip tied atleast 3/4 of the way across screen except for where the CHE bell goes. You can also use Tin Foil (not as good but a lot cheaper) or something else. (Dont use cardboard, its sucks up Humidity)
Acurite Thermometer Display on my cool side w/the Probe siliconed down on Hot side under the Hide & butcher paper substrate above the UTH.
That now reads cool side temp, Hot side tempand Humidity percent.
Dimmer on UTH, goes from 88 to 91.
60 watt CHE on Full Power Cool Side runs 24/7. Cool side gets 78-82.

Your tank is a tad bigger so Im thinking your CHE 100 watt is good but I wouldnt put it above a hide ever.. That can cook the heck out if a hide... Like sun beating diwn on a car hood all day.
Id order a $30 jump start Tstat for the CHE so you can hang the Prob down and set it for 81.. Then have peice if mind.
All my enclosures have Tstats and Dimmers, this tank here I explained is only my quarantine tank thats why i don't have a TStat. I use a safe low watt CHE only for low temps and Dummer in CHE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Yes, I am using a CHE and UTH on the hot side. For the time being I have stopped using the bulbs all together.
Should I move the CHE to the middle of the tank instead of being directly over the hot side?

I put the CHE on a timer mainly for the nighttime temp drop (simulation of night temp decline).
It is set to cut off at 11pm and resume at 4am.

---

Cycling temps is used for breeding not normlly everyday life. Trust me no matter what unless you heat the room itself the enclosure temps drop a bit anyway.
Yes I would move it, never use 2 heat sorces on the Hot side. Middle or Cool side. Remember the UTH is what gives the basking in this case. The CHE is only to raise ambiant a bit.

Also put the CHE above the water bowl.. Bigger the water bowl better the Humidity.
50% to 65%.

Ok. I'll make these adjustments, snap some pics, and post them in a min. Thanks!

This is 100% what we have been talking about, It's in the Stickys:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-With-Pictures!

Thank you!!
Yeah, I really wish I would have followed this manual beforehand.
As it is now, I'm already neck-deep in the mix. It would be tough to backtrack.
Probably best that I just do what I can to adjust moving forward instead of tearing everything down and redoing it, but it does give me some good ideas and the pictures help a LOT!

I have a client here for an appointment from 9am to 10am, but I'll post some pics of my setup after she's gone so you can see its status and advise from there.

After 5 hours of burning WITHOUT a dimmer or thermostat, the 100W CHE isn't hot enough on its own for this tank. I can let it churn for a while longer and measure again, but I think it'll be great for helping the ambient temps, but getting to that 90degree mark on the hot side is not happening (I still need to probe the hot hide today. Will report on that when I post the pics). So my initial thoughts are to possibly have both a CHE and a heat lamp? If I do, I'd put the lamp on the hot side and the CHE in the middle over the water bowl...but this just sounds wrong. I feel like it would be too much heat, but ultimately I would rather dial in the correct temps than allow my personal intuition to negatively influence the setup.

The good news is that the nighttime temps seem good.
They dropped to 81 on the hot, 75 on the cold

Im confused as to why your going back to the Heat Bulb idea? The CHE for 75+ ambient temps and the UTH for Hot side is best route for what you have now. Balls love UTH's. The CHE (as far as the way i explained to use it) was always for the cool side temps as you wont get 90 out of it with a tall aquarium style tank. That would be good for a lizard up on a branch not a snake on the substrate, heat rises and your starting out high to begin with using Lamos or CHE's not to mention glass is a bad insulator and you have a darn screen ontop hahahha. You also will never get Humidity over 50% steadily trying to run 2 lamp type heaters. They would dry out a puddle in a rain storm lol.
UTH Hot Side, CHE cool ambiant..
Run dimmer on UTH for 91 on glass.
Dont ever use tape inside a enclosure. Thats like pouring acid on your skin. Use silicone if you want to tack things down. I tack my Probe in hide under the substrate paper with silicone its safe for the snake.
Cant think of anything else right now. Your almost there just use the info to tweek things.

Perhaps this will help explain whats going on;
I am no longer using the night bulb lamp at all. It has been disconnected and is no longer in use.
The day lamp is plugged in, but is kept off at all times unless the tank requires a bit of a heat bump or I need to see inside the tank (the room the tank is kept in is not illuminated very well)
I was told that the CHE being over the top of a hide would turn it into an "oven" and that I should not position it so. A 20 long, while reasonable, isn't really THAT big so I am forced to place the CHE in the middle.
I probed the hot side hide and got a reading of 100.5 degrees. Too hot. I suspect the CHE being on the hot side had something to do with that, but I also dialed back the dimmer on the UTH very SLIGHTLY just in case.
I plan to probe both hides again this afternoon and this evening to stay on top of the changes I am making.

I also covered both sides, the back, and the top with DOUBLE LAYERS of aluminum foil secured with black electric tape (I have NEVER used tape INSIDE the enclosure ;) )
After I finished that, I added cut planks of pressed and painted wood to the OUTSIDE of the aluminum foil on the tank's back and both sides for additional insulation (I did NOT use cardboard).
I then misted down the whole tank with warm water, topped off the water dish, secured everything, and snapped the following pictures.

Please let me know if you have any thoughts or suggestions.
I'm desperately trying to get this right! :P

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/...szqxni1yq.jpeg

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/...sdostkgsq.jpeg

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/...sgaj9pg4n.jpeg

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/...sxmxagb1t.jpeg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Perhaps this will help explain whats going on;
I am no longer using the night bulb lamp at all. It has been disconnected and is no longer in use.
The day lamp is plugged in, but is kept off at all times unless the tank requires a bit of a heat bump or I need to see inside the tank (the room the tank is kept in is not illuminated very well)
I was told that the CHE being over the top of a hide would turn it into an "oven" and that I should not position it so. A 20 long, while reasonable, isn't really THAT big so I am forced to place the CHE in the middle.
I probed the hot side hide and got a reading of 100.5 degrees. Too hot. I suspect the CHE being on the hot side had something to do with that, but I also dialed back the dimmer on the UTH very SLIGHTLY just in case.
I plan to probe both hides again this afternoon and this evening to stay on top of the changes I am making.

I also covered both sides, the back, and the top with DOUBLE LAYERS of aluminum foil secured with black electric tape (I have NEVER used tape INSIDE the enclosure ;) )
After I finished that, I added cut planks of pressed and painted wood to the OUTSIDE of the aluminum foil on the tank's back and both sides for additional insulation (I did NOT use cardboard).
I then misted down the whole tank with warm water, topped off the water dish, secured everything, and snapped the following pictures.

Please let me know if you have any thoughts or suggestions.
I'm desperately trying to get this right! :P

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...szqxni1yq.jpeg

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...sdostkgsq.jpeg

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...sgaj9pg4n.jpeg

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...sxmxagb1t.jpeg

---

Yes that was me that said to move the CHE from above the Hot Hide...only 1 source with a UTH for basking. My names Chris :)
.. Excellent job.. Good idea with the insulation. It looks like all you need to do is dial in the dimmer now for the Hot hide.. And yes your right the Hot side probe got up to 100 because of that CHE.
Also remember when your dialing this in do so when you havent removed the lid for several hours.. You'll have a heck of a time with that dimmer unless you only adjusted one thing at a time.. If your moving the CHE around, turing Off & On the light ect ...that will all effect that hot hide probe that we need to get the UTH regulated with. So dont correct 2 things at once or you'll never know what should be raised or lowered.
Remember a couple degrees at night is nothig to worry about, thats natural. So when your ambiant goes down at night (when house does) your UTH may go down to 87/88. Thats fine.
Sorry if I rambled, ive said so much i dont know what I said or didnt say yet haha

The names Anthony. BP's name is "Suriyothai".
The breeder who sold me my python last week was named Chris. Interesting coincidence :P

Thanks for the compliments on the tank. I'm keeping careful watch on the temps throughout the day today. I will be very careful to only change 1 thing at a time. This whole setup is a lot more fickle than I anticipated it being, but thats fine. Once I get it all under control I'm sure it'll become a lot easier to maintain and in the end its worth it to keep such an amazing pet!

Now that everything seems good I'm going leave it all as is and probe both hides later tonight (lid will have been closed about 8 hours). I'll update with my readings at that time. Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

This whole setup is a lot more fickle than I anticipated it being, but thats fine. Once I get it all under control I'm sure it'll become a lot easier to maintain and in the end its worth it to keep such an amazing pet!

Now that everything seems good I'm going leave it all as is and probe both hides later tonight (lid will have been closed about 8 hours). I'll update with my readings at that time. Thanks!

---

you've done a terrific job getting that tank up and running. and yes, once it's 100% it won't need much to maintain it. yay!!! :D

Hmm...its been 6 hours with the lid tight and night is now falling. The temps are dropping slightly as was predicted.

Current readings;
HOT - 84 degrees. 45% humidity
COLD - 84 degrees. 51% humidity

These are ambient air temps only and do NOT include the hide temps.
The humidity now seems to be doing MUCH better and typically has ridden between 45 and 55 degrees ever since I better insulated everything. It took that hot side 6-8 hrs to fall to below 50%, which is a huge improvement, but the tank will probably still require 1x or 2x daily misting to maintain proper levels, which is no big deal.

What does concern me is that there doesn't seem to be a temperature gradient throughout the tank. Is this important? Or should I ignore it?
I assume since I moved the CHE to the middle it has more evenly and effectively distributed the temps as you can see in the reading I just mentioned.

I need to make a quick run, but when I get back I'll get some hide temps probed and we'll see how things stand with those...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SandmansDreams

Hmm...its been 6 hours with the lid tight and night is now falling. The temps are dropping slightly as was predicted.

Current readings;
HOT - 84 degrees. 45% humidity
COLD - 84 degrees. 51% humidity

These are ambient air temps only and do NOT include the hide temps.
The humidity now seems to be doing MUCH better and typically has ridden between 45 and 55 degrees ever since I better insulated everything. It took that hot side 6-8 hrs to fall to below 50%, which is a huge improvement, but the tank will probably still require 1x or 2x daily misting to maintain proper levels, which is no big deal.

What does concern me is that there doesn't seem to be a temperature gradient throughout the tank. Is this important? Or should I ignore it?
I assume since I moved the CHE to the middle it has more evenly and effectively distributed the temps as you can see in the reading I just mentioned.

I need to make a quick run, but when I get back I'll get some hide temps probed and we'll see how things stand with those...

---

Your kind of misunderstanding what this set up does.. You donhave a gradiant but not ambiant.. Your UTH should be 88-91 and your cool side (CHE) 76-81... Thats your Cool/Hot gradiant in this case...
If you decide to run a larger enclosure at some point, 48"x15"x12" (40G long) or a T8 PVC you can use one heat source, a RHP with a Herpstat portional tstat. That will be a Hot side of 90 and the other side (no heat source) will be around 76-80... Your not going to get that in a small tank using a CHE for ambiant and uth for basking spot .. your cool side is a bit to warm and thats why I was saying a 60 watt is ok for smaller tanks. I cant remember do you have a Jumpstart Tstat or what is controling the CHE? It needs to be turned down a bit..

Yeah, I went back over the "with pictures" instructions again to double check things and saw my error; the UTH is measured as being "Hot-side" and the ambient temps as measured on the "Cold side" are maintained by the CHE.
I got it now. I was indeed mistaken. I do not currently have the CHE on a thermostat, but it is on a timer (11:00pm cut off...4:00am kick on). I plan to head in and pick up another dimmer tomorrow for it.
Thereafter I will remove the timer, add the dimmer, and adjust until precise temps are reached.
That should complete the setup once and for all aside from some very minor tweeks here and there.
I anticipate using the timer elsewhere or in the future on a bigger tank.
Meanwhile, I'm letting the timer its plugged into now cycle it off and back on so as to drop those too-high temps a little. I think it should be ok overnight, especially with all the new insulation I added.

He will be ok anyways as some Pythons/Boa's are on UTH alone... If they need heat they will stay on the UTH, if they want to cool they get off for a bit... Keepers have done that for decades. Thats what most rack systems are.
Its not recomended to run 2 dimmers as when they fail they fail wide open, however so do Cheap Tstats so when you have the money to spend get a $195 Herpstat 2 (control 2 heat sources) and doesnt fail Wide Open.. As a matter of fact dont hear of failures period. I hear about several still running 10 years later.....

Great success!!
BP actually used one of her hides on her own for the first time since I got her! :D
She's been in it all day actually. Pokes her head out every once in a while if I'm in the room doing stuff but is generally totally unseen.

Tomorrow my temp gun should be delivered and I'll finally be able to get pinpoint readings on everything!
I also plan to get a thermostat for the UTH (moving the dimmer it is currently plugged into over to the CHE).
If the dimmer on the CHE fails, and it fails wide open as you said, the hottest the tank has gotten on the CHE with no dimmer at all has been 84 so it should be fine (short term) even if that happens.

Even though everything isn't 100% yet, I'm now 95% there and I think I should be able to get it all squared away from here before this coming weekend is out.

Also, I know I've very likely stressed her out these past several days by screwing with the enclosure so much, but she hasn't eaten in 12 days so I'm going to try to feed her tonight (1st attempt at feeding). Here goes! :D

good luck!!!