I don't want to be a breeder anymore

I have been keeping reptiles and amphibians since forever, and spent the last 6 years or so being a breeder. I have built up from just 2 snakes to now well over 200, not to mention tons of geckos and various lizards of many kinds. My goal was to become a big breeder like the big guys like BHB or Kevin one day. Now I come to the crossroads of whether to turn this from a hobby to a business or not, and I feel like my heart isn't there anymore.

Firstly, it is not really that profitable. And the care of all of them myself has become a chore. I do not have the confidence to start a business with employees who will share the work with me, nor do I really think it makes much financial sense given the current state of the morph markets (am I making excuses?). I want to be able to vacation and do other things again like I used to.

It is also heart breaking when I see some animals die (there are bound to be some when dealing with hundreds of them) or born with deformities, or even eggs that don't hatch. When these things don't happen, I am constantly worried that they will. It is doing my head in.

Yet, I have a problem letting it go. Because 1) I feel like I am just starting to get some success breeding and now I am quitting. 2) I feel very attached to the animals, even the ones I am meant to sell, let alone those that I keep as breeding stock or pets, some have been with me for over a decade (I don't see how it will free up my life if I still keep some? Will it?) 3) It feels like such a waste. Even if I sell all the animals, what will I do with all the racks and cages I have built, some used for less than a year? That I feel are very well made and I am very proud of? Also the years of effort put into this and raising breeders from babies. 4) From an ego standpoint, I feel like I would lose some status, as I have done things like made world first morphs, morph combos, bred species not bred before in my city, animals only I have etc., even though no one else seem to really give a crap (will they?).

I have listed a small percentage of animals for sale, but I am really not sure which direction I am headed. I do know that my current situation is such that, while I love the subject matter, I no longer enjoy the constant physical labour nor the psychological and emotional stress.

If it were me, I think the deciding factor would be how confident are you that you have an alternative income lined up that will allow you to be comfortable and have the freedom to do the things you wish you could do now? If you have something that will provide those things, it might be time for a change of direction.


If not, maybe take a chance and hire someone part-time to help. Even if it is just a few hours a week, teaching them might be enough of a change to your routine to light that spark again. Once you trust that they can handle it, maybe have them work 2-3 days a week so you have a little time for yourself?



Either way, good luck!

I read your post and then I read it to my wife. I asked her what she thought. Since she is very objective has a lot of common sense that I am lacking many times. Her answer was quick. She said you need to get out of it. I agree with her. So unless you think you could hire someone and make money and let someone else do the work and worry like Brian and Kevin do then you should get out of it and bring it back to being fun and a hobby you can enjoy. It is not an enjoyable hobby to you and you said you don't really want to go full out and make it a business where you can let others do the work. It is remarkable that you have been able to do it this long. I couldn't imagine having all them to take care of myself. The most I had was 2 at one time and it was too much.:rolleye2: There is too much competition around to make much money anymore. Many of them are dropping there prices a LOT which is good for us who buy but not too good for you sellers. Don't worry what others will think. Will they come and help you. No. It is your life and you need to make the change and not worry what others will think. That kind of thinking keeps you a prisoner) I really think you answered your own question when you posted your title. I would keep a couple which I think you could handle easily and make sure it stays something you enjoy, if not I would just get rid of all of it. Think of the enjoyment you will be giving to others.

It is no shame to get out many have gotten out. Some on here even. My wife's sister's boyfriend was a breeder and he got out. But he still likes animals and keeps some. Wish you the best, and only the best. And I agree. I would need a vacation too, with all that and by myself. whew. :tears:

Well income isn't the issue because this isn't even giving me much money. Can't just hire someone, I would have to rent a place, because right now it operates out of my home and I don't want employees in my house all the time.

I am pretty sure I want to get out, but keep a few. I just need help with overcoming the psychological barriers I listed. Maybe someone who has gotten out can chime in?

The decision left is whether to quit or to downsize. I am 99% sure I don't want to upsize.

Wow! This is really sad to hear hung. You know what? 6 years is a long time but 200 animals is way too much for 1 person. Congrats on all your accomplishments and accolades. I think you need a vacation but I am not going to get on a soap box and try to persuade or dissuade you, that's your call. I do know that you have a passion for this hobby/ industry and that's proven. I do think it's important for you to downsize temporarily. :gj:

Not 200, WELL over 200 SNAKES. Then, geckos, lizards, frogs...

They are all taken care of properly, but it is taking up all of my time and energy, and I am exhausted.

I don't enjoy this anymore, not as things currently are. I really need someone who has been through this to talk to. Right now I am thinking "what was I thinking?" but not sure how I will feel tommorow.

Maybe I need to do this step by step? Downsize first and see how I get along or what? It is so daunting to think of this whole process at once, when on top of the animals I still have two incubators full of eggs, and more being laid all the time. What am I supposed to do, Sell the eggs? Make an omelette?

I know and understand your feelings.
I have decided to not do any pairings for a couple if years.
It will give me time to grow out my het Snows and others that I have produce and held back.
Only time will tell how you may feel.

I have also started to switch most of my collection to f/t as I have been debating on not producing rodents anymore either.

I am also afraid of regretting it. I mean, I am swamped with it right now, but if I quit, and take a nap and watch tv for 2 weeks, then what would I think?

Pitontheprowl, how many do you have?

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Originally Posted by hungba

Pitontheprowl, how many do you have?

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Just light of 100 balls a couple hundred rats and then all the other pets.......

Well, considering the rats smell, almost as bad as me then... 😁

I also have projects that I have not proven out yet. How should I at least document them if I quit? I may just ppst some of them here as there are definitely something going on with those.

Well I haven't "been there" but for reasons that I won't get into I didn't pair anything and I closed my collection for a year a few seasons ago. What I discovered during that year was that when I wasn't worried about pairings, getting females up to weight, eggs in the incubator, imperfect pippers, advertising, dealing with customers, etc. I was a lot less stressed and thus more free to enjoy the animals I had.

In addition to the 200+ snakes you have other species to deal with, plus (I'm assuming) a day job. That is a lot of responsibility for just one person.

My advice is to scale way back to where keeping (not breeding) becomes fun again.

For the breeding programs, figure out the top two or three projects you want to focus on across all of the species you have, keep a dozen of the critters that will best advance it, and sell everything else.

Pets are trickier with the emotional investment, especially with all of the flippers out there. If you can send them to a good local home with a first right of refusal contract, that may help you deal with the rehoming.

Equipment can be sold or set aside in case something breaks, it's nice to have a backup readily available.

I hope this helps, I have a some serious health issues. Recently I got rid of two of my six. The resulting cut back reignited my passion for the remaining four. Due what's best/right for you. And I've been keeping over thirty years. Good Luck

I agree with Albert on the vacation, but with your burnout, you need a looonng vacation, like 4-6 Wk's. Double that would be even better, but may be hard to pull off. Then make the decision when you come back.

As as far as getting help; I know a breeder that has high school and college kids that come a few times a week to clean cages and help with feeding for free. In exchange he teaches them and lets them handle the snakes. He gives them killer deals on rats and snakes as well. The kids are always eager to help.

It sounds like you have already made your decision. That is sad, as many people who turn any hobby into a business find out. The fun just slowly melts away.

Yeah you could probably hire some kid for like $10/ hour for like 4 days a week, 3 hours a dsy to come and take care of them. Just put an ad on craigslist. Day 1 clean, 2 clean, 3 feed day 4 feed. I donno just a thought.


Reptilering.com is great way to auction off your stuff.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

It's all about the passion. If the passion has turned into just an annoying daily grind then it's time to let go. And I know that is hard to do. I am still in the process of doing it. I didn't breed at all in the last year and this past summer I decided to start by selling my hatchling racks. Now it's just a matter of bringing myself to part with the animals themselves. The hardest part for me is that the market is such crap for last 2 years that I don't want to except lowball prices for what I have. But that is just a matter of price that I need to get past.

I've seen people in the same position as you. I would suggest scaling back, having too much turns it into a nonstop chore. Maybe keep a handful of your favorite projects and see what happens. You can always keep cutting back.

I'm not a breeder but I do see where you are coming from. When a passion grows into a job it can def be a big time source of stress and become less and less fun over time. Even if it's not your primary source of income, it's def a job when you have that any animals with nobody else to take some of the load off. Maybe scaling back will make it fun again. I've been in the same situation before with other hobbies and it can def be a burden. I decided to do it right this time (right for me) and not jump in head over heals and get tons of animals right off the bat. I just want to produce a clutch or two a year and just have fun with it.

To be successful you do not have to have a huge facility with employees, many people make money or even a living without infrastructure like BHB or NERD
Scaling down and restructuring to a more manageable, lower maintenance (eliminating everything but snakes) yet profitable collection can be an option however it will not change the part where you can just go away on long vacations (we all make that sacrifice) or the heartbreaks (will all experience it as well)

After that if you still want to pursue it and make it profitable it’s about marketing yourself and finding your niche. For the last 10 years the sky has been falling and people complain that the market is awful but more often than not it’s their inability to adjust to that market that is the real issue. Adjusting to the market is a necessity like in any business and to do that you must have specific goals and let go of animals that no longer fit projects or no longer make sense to keep financially, you have to constantly evolve.

I have scaled down and restructured to 3 main BP projects, select Hypo, Clown and Pied combos now it’s about less animals but much higher end ones which took time since I first started from scratch. I still however have some diversity as well but those side projects are very small in numbers.

Having employee trust me is not making it easier, first it is very hard in this industry to trust someone (let alone a stranger that will make minimum wage), the job might be done well for a while than not up to your standard, and dealing with employees is often a big headache, there is a HUGE turn around in facilities like NERD and BHB from employees quitting, to those not doing their job or those caught stealing.

It’s not an easy business there is a lot of sacrifices to be made and if the passion is not there it’s either restructuring and getting that passion back or quitting it all and keeping one or two pets. But passion has to be there because even with small manageable number if the passion is not there there is no point.

Ultimately only you can decide what the best decision is for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

It sounds like you have already made your decision. That is sad, as many people who turn any hobby into a business find out. The fun just slowly melts away.

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As an aside, a lot of "gun guys" get FFL's because they like guns - and if you like shooting guns then dealing in them must be great too, right?

WRONG! After a year or so they realize that they 1) hate running a business, 2) they don't know how to run a business, and 3) all the free time they used to spend on the range is now tied up with paperwork, invoicing, bookkeeping, accounting, filing taxes, dealing with customers, advertising, etc. etc. etc., and the time spent on it would have been more profitable with less stress working as a greeter at WalMart, so they get out.

OP if you are not enjoying what you are doing now, as a hobbyist, you will really hate doing it as a business.

I propose a middle ground. Sell the species that are taking most of your time and see how you feel after that. There was a time when we had over 25 bearded dragons, now we have 4. We found they took an incredible amount of time compared to the snakes, on top of costing us money to breed due to the food costs. If you gain some free time back you might begin to enjoy it more again, like we did.

I don't have many snakes and not even close to the position you may be in, but I think it's great advice to just scale down to maybe a few of your favorite/most valuable animals, and go from there. Maybe just eight ball pythons. Maybe taking a solid break from any clutches for a year or two too, and see how you feel. It'll go back to taking very little time and being a side hobby.

200 snakes is a ton for one person, holy! I can't even imagine.

If you already don't feel your heart isn't in it as it was before, don't go the business road.

I have read your responses, thankyou.

I am not in the US. Things are different.

I find that everyone wants to just buy the normals and stuff like that which I list for cheap. Hardly anyone wants to buy the high end morphs I made. Of the bunch I listed I sold like 20 normals, pastels etc. but only one high end one. This is really p!ssing me off.

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Originally Posted by hungba

I have read your responses, thankyou.

I am not in the US. Things are different.

I find that everyone wants to just buy the normals and stuff like that which I list for cheap. Hardly anyone wants to buy the high end morphs I made. Of the bunch I listed I sold like 20 normals, pastels etc. but only one high end one. This is really p!ssing me off.

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Wow, really sorry to see that things aren't going well, especially with your investment with the higher end animals. :(

However, it doesn't matter what business you get into, you gotta know your market... and consistently along with fluctuations and changes.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

Wow, really sorry to see that things aren't going well, especially with your investment with the higher end animals. :(

However, it doesn't matter what business you get into, you gotta know your market... and consistently along with fluctuations and changes.

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It wasn't like I invested in a lot of high end animals. I started with a couple single gene animals in 2011 as far as ball pythons. I did buy a couple of 3 gene animals, but by and large my high end ones are ones I produced.

I am not going to nor am I interested in breeding for normals and pastels just because they sell fast. Moneywise I would be richer and happier selling frozen rats. I wanted to breed them first and foremost to create cool snakes. Very few seem to appreciate it.

It gets overwhelming very quick and with no help you can easily exhaust yourself. You can be a breeder and maintain good finances, but a commonly used quote is it takes money to make money and this is true in breeding ball pythons. Mouths to feed can add up quickly if you're not selling anything, and some morphs do drop very fast. Yes ball pythons do drop in value fast with morphs, however if you expand what you breed you can change this. For instance GTP's have a steady value, and if you keep the proper documentation you can sell your animals for more. Overall though being a breeder is basically like a production job and it's a hobby, so hard times can easily come. There's so many things to factor in which also suck but I wish you the best.

I don't breed anymore because I was too picky of a seller, I would screen customers to make sure they planned on taking proper care of the animal. But yes, any animal that dies is sad.

Sit down, write down everything you've learned from the experience, and call the expenses of it all "tuition."
Sell off everything you don't love. Much easier to go forward as an expert/niche producer in one thing, rather than a jack-of-all-trades.

Some things are seasonal. Around late summer every year, I want to give up the homestead. I grow to hate the heat, the noise (we live in a town that is rapidly devolving into ghetto, so outside is not very peaceful), the bugs, the endless watering, etc. I'm always happy again once Fall arrives, but I go thru the same thing every year.

If you like working as a business owner (just not THAT business), you can always go into another field. READ first. There are a lot of good first person experience entrepreneurial books out there.

I think this is a common feeling and one that many are going through but do not want to admit to. When I read this, I sit back and think "6 years is not time at all*, yet in this hobby people think that is a life time. I have animals I produced 6 years ago that I am only now feeling they have reached the size and maturity that I want them to be to breed. Then they second questions... "do I want them to breed".

I have said it from day one (21 years ago os so), the snake hobby is not one that you will become rich doing. You might make an income, but you could probably make that income easer (with retirement benefits, medical, etc) easier, elsewhere. The snake hobby really means that you are a glorified cage cleaner, and most don't realize that that is the least fun part of the hobby. With over 200 animals, I can imagine the stress that might create. I had over 100 up until recently when I decided to cut it right down. And this brings it to you r next comment "no-one wants to buy high end animals". That is very true. The market is so weak right now that people don't want to pay. So what did I do... I have a ton of them away to kids as pets. If you are looking to sell them all, there are four ways - 1) Individually at your full price (takes time and some will not sell), 2) in project batches at a reduced price (with racks, etc. again some will not sell), and 3) as a going concern (everything as is, animals, cages, etc) at a much reduced price), and 4) wholesale everything, at a massively reduced price. The option you take is your call. Many will wholesale the cheap, single gene "everyday" animals for cents on the dollar. But they all go out at once, instantly reducing your collection down (I hate using the term collection, as we are talking about live animals here). When you reduce your animals down to a more manageable group, that will ease some stress. The other thing would be to sell all non-snake species as they tend to require daily care. I go away on business (and sometimes vacation) frequently. Sometimes for as long as three weeks. As I only have snakes, I make sure the animals were not fded for 2 weeks prior (so unlikely to defecate), they get a large bowl of fresh water, the tub is left immaculate and with a substate that will absorb urine, and I lock the door behind me. I have been doing that for years. This might allow you to keep a group of great animals, still breed for fun, and enjoy all of life's benefits.

Finally, you mentioned an interesting term that many people get so wrapped up in this project "I made worlds first's, or firsts in my town/city". Does this really mean anything today, because 1) how many people are going to buy your worlds first for the kind of money you think its worth, and 2) how long before another one will be made. With the saturation of the market today, and the immense number of morph and multi-gene combos, making a worlds first is easy, and brings no major accolade. Unless you have imported directly a new and crazy morph from Africa, or one has appear from your breedings through mutation, worlds firsts mean nothing.

My advice would be to cut everything down to 25 to 50 animals. Snakes only. While the cheap stuff. Retain the high end stuff that excites you. Contact "breeders" with a sales list that is massively reduced in price to see if they want animals. Then, enjoy life. If you can get buy and enjoy life (vacations, family time, etc) and still have a handful of snakes, its a win win. Don't breed because you can, bred because you really want to make a cool morph/combo, and you would be happy to keep the babies or give them away. Thats how I look at every breeding I do. If you can enjoy life that way, there you go. If you still feel stressed, sell or give away the rest and get o with life.

Warren

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Originally Posted by hungba

It wasn't like I invested in a lot of high end animals. I started with a couple single gene animals in 2011 as far as ball pythons. I did buy a couple of 3 gene animals, but by and large my high end ones are ones I produced.

I am not going to nor am I interested in breeding for normals and pastels just because they sell fast. Moneywise I would be richer and happier selling frozen rats. I wanted to breed them first and foremost to create cool snakes. Very few seem to appreciate it.

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There is no "seem."
Either there is a market in the location that you can supply to, or there isn't.
If there isn't, don't beat your head against a wall trying to make one.
If there is, find out why other producers and selling and why you aren't.

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Originally Posted by Neal

I don't breed anymore because I was too picky of a seller, I would screen customers to make sure they planned on taking proper care of the animal. But yes, any animal that dies is sad.

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Do you still keep reptiles? How did you finally decide to stop and I presume sell off your animals?

Regarding the water bowls, it seems that mine dry out a lot faster than your 3 weeks? I once went away for 2 weeks some years ago and when I got back the bowls were dry.

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Originally Posted by Warren_Booth

I think this is a common feeling and one that many are going through but do not want to admit to. When I read this, I sit back and think "6 years is not time at all*, yet in this hobby people think that is a life time. I have animals I produced 6 years ago that I am only now feeling they have reached the size and maturity that I want them to be to breed. Then they second questions... "do I want them to breed".

I have said it from day one (21 years ago os so), the snake hobby is not one that you will become rich doing. You might make an income, but you could probably make that income easer (with retirement benefits, medical, etc) easier, elsewhere. The snake hobby really means that you are a glorified cage cleaner, and most don't realize that that is the least fun part of the hobby. With over 200 animals, I can imagine the stress that might create. I had over 100 up until recently when I decided to cut it right down. And this brings it to you r next comment "no-one wants to buy high end animals". That is very true. The market is so weak right now that people don't want to pay. So what did I do... I have a ton of them away to kids as pets. If you are looking to sell them all, there are four ways - 1) Individually at your full price (takes time and some will not sell), 2) in project batches at a reduced price (with racks, etc. again some will not sell), and 3) as a going concern (everything as is, animals, cages, etc) at a much reduced price), and 4) wholesale everything, at a massively reduced price. The option you take is your call. Many will wholesale the cheap, single gene "everyday" animals for cents on the dollar. But they all go out at once, instantly reducing your collection down (I hate using the term collection, as we are talking about live animals here). When you reduce your animals down to a more manageable group, that will ease some stress. The other thing would be to sell all non-snake species as they tend to require daily care. I go away on business (and sometimes vacation) frequently. Sometimes for as long as three weeks. As I only have snakes, I make sure the animals were not fded for 2 weeks prior (so unlikely to defecate), they get a large bowl of fresh water, the tub is left immaculate and with a substate that will absorb urine, and I lock the door behind me. I have been doing that for years. This might allow you to keep a group of great animals, still breed for fun, and enjoy all of life's benefits.

Finally, you mentioned an interesting term that many people get so wrapped up in this project "I made worlds first's, or firsts in my town/city". Does this really mean anything today, because 1) how many people are going to buy your worlds first for the kind of money you think its worth, and 2) how long before another one will be made. With the saturation of the market today, and the immense number of morph and multi-gene combos, making a worlds first is easy, and brings no major accolade. Unless you have imported directly a new and crazy morph from Africa, or one has appear from your breedings through mutation, worlds firsts mean nothing.

My advice would be to cut everything down to 25 to 50 animals. Snakes only. While the cheap stuff. Retain the high end stuff that excites you. Contact "breeders" with a sales list that is massively reduced in price to see if they want animals. Then, enjoy life. If you can get buy and enjoy life (vacations, family time, etc) and still have a handful of snakes, its a win win. Don't breed because you can, bred because you really want to make a cool morph/combo, and you would be happy to keep the babies or give them away. Thats how I look at every breeding I do. If you can enjoy life that way, there you go. If you still feel stressed, sell or give away the rest and get o with life.

Warren

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Quit acting like a women.
Paycheck vs feelings