Switching from live mice to f/t rats !!!HELP!!!

I bought two 2-year-old Ball pythons one is a female (silverstreak named Stella) the other is a male (a cinnamon pinstripe named Gabriel). The only thing they've ever eaten is live mice and the breeder just put the mice in with these snakes. Now what I want to accomplish is to switch these guys over to f/t rats introduced by forcepts and for them to be in a different enclosure when being fed... anybody know how to do this? This is the first time I've ever bought a ball python let alone 2 this old from someone else rather than getting them as a hatchling and raising them how I see fit. i've never had a problem with a ball python rejecting food until now and now I have no idea how to not only switch them from live to F/T but also from mice to rats and getting them used to being handled briefly before feedings. I'm feeling like I'm in a little over my head here, any suggestions would be appreciated.

I've converted snakes to FT quite often. Some of them were rescues. Rough, beat up imports. Some of which needed medical intervention before feeding.

They ALL eventually took FT.

What I would do first is to set them up correctly. If they have eaten regularly, it won't hurt them to miss a few meals while you change (improve) their setups.

Separate them. Not just for feeding. But for good. They each need to have their own enclosure. Then make sure your husbandry is SPOT ON. Meaning the setup needs to have the correct size (not to big) have hides, correct heat and humidity. No wide open or exposed spaces.

Once you have them each set up the right way, just wait AT LEAST a week if not 10 days for them to settle in. During that time, do not handle them. They don't need to be handled all the time to be "tame". Until they thrive (healthy and eating) under your care, no handling. Just look in on them every so often.

After the 10 days are over heat up a appropriate sized rats. I like to defrost them in cold water for a few hours and then put them in hot water for 10 minutes, dump water and refill with fresh hot water, wait 10 minutes and repeat. Basically 3 times you want to start with hot water and wait 10 to 15 minutes in between. Take the rat, wrap in paper towels or a old towel you won't use, rub the fur a bit to dry and be fluffy (once they are converted nicely you don't really have to do that) and then offer it to the snake. Ideally the snake is in a hide or some corner. Do the "I'm alive dance" with the Rat. IF the snake doesn't take it, lay down the rat near the snake and LEAVE THEM BE. Check in morning if the rat is gone.

If that don't work. Wait 10 more days, try again.

For best results you want to do it one step at the time because going from live mice to f/t rats is a lot more complicated.

I would suggest that you do either live mice to f/t mice if it works keep feeding f/t mice for 5 feedings than offer f/t rats.

Or do live mice to live rats (same size to make the transition a little easier) than after 5 live rats switch to f/t.

And do not handle prior to feeding you are setting your snake up for failure and yourself up to get tagged.

Ok so basically I'm waiting for them to get hungry? Then what? You can't wait out a BP, you'll lose and put the snake at risk. I know this because I know of people who've tried this method and failed. Also they've never been housed together unless breeding. The breeder they came from kept them in a snake rack and I like to keep my snakes in 40 gallon 36x19x18 exo terra terrariums which they have been put in since I purchased them and my husbandry is spot on. So I need advice on how to properly:

1. Switch from live to f/t and what to do if starving them out doesn't work
2. Switch from mice to rats and what to do if starving them out doesn't work and
3. Get them to feed in a SEPARATE enclosure when they're used to having their live food tossed in their bin

I need a little bit more (a lot more) to go on then just starve them because trying to get them to eat and they don't is basically what they're doing to themselves anyhow.

I don't want to continue feeding these 2 in their primary enclosure though because doing so will also set me up to get "tagged" because they'll start to think that me reaching into their tank means food ergo me getting bitten. So how do I get them used eating outside their tanks? Also rats are illegal in Alberta so I can't do live mice to live rats.

You need to have them house individually and fed in their enclosure and use tough love and common sense anyone trying to switch a BP and ending up failing and putting the snake at risk is not very smart or does not have much common sense.

The first thing to know is that tough love requires good body weight and ease to switch requires optimum husbandry.

I would expect properly cared for 2 years old to have a good body weight allowing then to go months without food, and if you are unconfortable doing so offer f/t and nothing if not eaten doing that for 3 weeks than on week 4 offer live if it's still does not work than back at it again for 3 weeks. That method cannot endanger any snake especially considering that they are over fed in captivity anyway.

There's no way to get them to eat in a secondary enclosure like a tote? My pastel gets put in a tote and eats fine, I've never had a problem with him so why can't I train the 2 year olds the same? Is there a way or do you just not know of a way because you never learned?

I think you've been given quite a LOT more then to "starve them out".

I wasn't clear on them having been housed together or not. If they are not, that is great.

Even with your husbandry being spot on, moving an adult Ball Python from a rack system to a larger enclosure, is quite the change. Especially for a Ball Python who seems to love small/dark places.

However...it can be done.

Patience is the key. Like its been said, if they were well fed then it will not hurt them at all to miss a few meals. They will not "starve out".

Best thing would be to leave them completely alone until you get them to eat. No handling. Only offering food every 7 days or so. They will not starve, you have a good couple of month before even getting any kind of worried. Most likely they are very stressed. The change in enclosure. Then being handled. Being removed to another container to eat. Being offered different food. You need to slow it down and go step by step.

So again, in my humble opinion you should leave them be. Then try to feed inside their enclosure after a few days with a nicely heated up rodent. I'm no fan of removing them to another tub for feeding. I never saw the logic in that. I've always fed in their enclosure and never had any trouble. If they think its feeding time and you reach in to remove them to the "feeding tub" you could still be tagged. Even more so because they will think being removed from their enclosure means feeding.

If mine are in feeding mode (most every night it seems) and I want to handle them, I simply let them know its not time to eat. If they are excited and ready to strike...I simply have a ball cap or a piece of paper or whatever is handy, and gently touch the top of their head. They know it means "no food". Spraying a tiny spritz of water from the misting bottle does the same. They calm down and I can remove them. Again, ONLY if they are excited and thinking about food and I don't want to get tagged when taking them out.

However, if your mind is made up to feed them in a separate bin, all you can do, is keep trying. But trying less often will help getting them to de-stress in between...

Good luck :)

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Originally Posted by s.chapman

I don't want to continue feeding these 2 in their primary enclosure though because doing so will also set me up to get "tagged" because they'll start to think that me reaching into their tank means food ergo me getting bitten. So how do I get them used eating outside their tanks? Also rats are illegal in Alberta so I can't do live mice to live rats.

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Actually quite the contrary animals being fed in there enclosure do not mistake your hand for food this is the oldest myth among new keepers that still persist.

However the opposite is very true moving the animal to a second area for feeding will get you tagged, why? Because you are attempting to move an animal in feeding mode (and they can be in feed mode hours before and after feedind). Not to mention that the move can stress this species enough to stress them and lead to food refusal.

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Well then I guess I'll tell my other BP's that they're backwards because the ones I tub feed have never ever even attempted to 'tag' me they don't tense up, recoil back, nothing. They wait to be picked up and that is all because when I open their tank it is either to clean, give fresh water, or to pick them up to either cuddle or put them in the tub for feeding. The tub tells them when it's ready to feed not their tank opening. snakes are smarter than people give them credit for. The only thing I found to be a useful piece of information on this thread was that I need to take baby steps so thank you for that insight. Going forward I have faith that Stella and Gabriel will convert from live mice to f/t rats in time and they will learn to eat in their feeding tub and not in their enclosure because the condition in which they were living has taught them that their tank opening = food which = feeding mode which = bite first ask questions later so Deborah I think it is you who are wrong in feeding your BP's in their enclosure and tub feeding is not a myth for newbies because I am experienced on BP husbandry and feeding techniques and the outcomes they produce but this is the first time I have taken sub-adults from a breeder since I prefer to raise my own from hatchlings for this exact reason, these snakes were strictly breeding snakes which meant they were rarely handled and their food was dropped in their drawer which made these BP's wild and unpredictable in a sense and I REFUSE to let them stay that way! Stella and Gabriel will be stressed for a little while until they get used to how things work when you're a part of a family instead of being used just as a cash cow but once they've adjusted they will be all the better for it and instead of being jumpy, scared, nervous, and untrusting they'll be comfortable and at ease and that's when they'll be able to let their personalities shine through. I am also aware that BP's are secretive creatures and by handling them even briefly before feeding even if it's just from their tank to their tub COULD stress them out is not accurate at all. If you tub feed from day 1 the snake is not stressed at all, the outcome is actually quite the opposite. Just like handling, the more you do it the more they don't mind. My pastel loves to be handled because he gets 1 of 2 rewards out of it: 1. He gets a warm body to sleep on or 2. He gets a nice juicy rat to sink his fangs into but not until he is in his tub which smells like his food and also I feed him with forcepts so he never associates my hand/smell with food ergo he doesn't even think of striking at me. Out of the 10 years I've had BP's I've been struck at once and that was my first year owning a BP and she was a sub-adult given to me by a friend who also rarely handled her and fed her in her tank so Ill stick to what works for me and ya'll can continue getting tagged. lol. Ciao.

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Deborah I think it is you who are wrong in feeding your BP's in their enclosure and tub feeding is not a myth for newbies because I am experienced on BP husbandry

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:rofl: well ok than, so since you are so experienced and apparently me and countless of other breeders and keepers are doing it wrong you should have no problem fixing your issue, I am actually surprise you even asked since you seems to know so much more than most of us :gj:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

:rofl: well ok than, so since you are so experienced and apparently me and countless of other breeders and keepers are doing it wrong you should have no problem fixing your issue, I am actually surprise you even asked since you seems to know so much more than most of us :gj:

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This made me laugh [emoji23]


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If i were you id feed in their enclosures and get them eating live rats and then try f/t rats.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

:rofl: well ok than, so since you are so experienced and apparently me and countless of other breeders and keepers are doing it wrong you should have no problem fixing your issue, I am actually surprise you even asked since you seems to know so much more than most of us :gj:

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I totally agree with you Deborah. I noticed it right off that they weren't here to get advice. Maybe it was their subtle way of coming here to "help" us out who are so in need of their advice. I say good luck too, it can work to feed in an outside tub, (after a LOT of effort and training) and does sometimes, but it goes against their nature and is based on a lie really, which most of us here know is a lie. Their nature is to be ready and eat out of their hides and enclosures. So bringing food into the enclosure is the best way to keep them unstressed. And I agree with s chapman that they are not stupid, and that is why they can tell the difference and are use to my hand reaching in. I've only been slightly tagged once and that was when I was trying to reach in and retrieve a dropped mouse with tweezers. My snake was saying "leave that mouse alone. I got this.";)

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Originally Posted by s.chapman

I don't want to continue feeding these 2 in their primary enclosure though because doing so will also set me up to get "tagged" because they'll start to think that me reaching into their tank means food ergo me getting bitten. So how do I get them used eating outside their tanks? Also rats are illegal in Alberta so I can't do live mice to live rats.

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I've only had my bp about 3 months. I am far from an experienced or expert handler. HOWEVER, I have always fed my snake live and in his enclosure. I also handle my snake daily, except feeding day and 1-2 days after. My 3.5 son handles my snake and is even able to take him out of the enclosure, with supervision. NO ONE in my house has been bit by my snake. Again, I'm no expert but based on my own experiences, as well as what I've read on here and other bp informational sites, feeding in the enclosure does not make it any more likely to be bit.
As a side note: I live quite close to an spca accredited bp rescue and they also feed in the enclosure's, I've handled a couple snakes there and had no concerns. Even with the shy/nervous snake.

From what I read in this thread, you have been given good advice and your responses have been a little rude. If you ask for advice, you should be open to advice.

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

If i were you id feed in their enclosures and get them eating live rats and then try f/t rats.

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I agree with this. I fed live pups a couple times before I switched to f/t pups and it worked out great. As far as whether or not to feed in the enclosure or not, I've always fed in their enclosure. Not for any reason in particular, I just never saw a reason not to.

http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index...on_in_its_tank

read it and learn something.

basically you can either condition BP's feed mode (tub feeding) or let it run rampid (enclosure feeding)and tap them on the nose or spray them with water (unpleasant for the snake) before handling. Which would you want for a companion? Pleasant and calm all the time or unpredictable and nippy unless scolded by getting tapped or sprayed before they can be handled?

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Originally Posted by s.chapman

http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index...on_in_its_tank

read it and learn something.

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Lol that figures, wonder how thousands of animals are fed in their enclosures and how they do not mistake their owner's hand for food....again it's a myth it's been debunked many moons ago just like the fact that feeding live makes a snake more aggressive (another myth).

Sadly some myths are still very much alive because of people like yourself perpetuating them, good thing around here it's about facts and education.

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I joined this forum for some friendly advice as how to do so many changes I had to get my BP's used to and instead I receive useless lazy advice that I could have simply gotten off google AND to top it all off I get shoved down my throat that I shouldn't be tub feeding my BP's like it's the worst thing in the world and then get told by some ametuer that I'm being rude when I asked an innocent question lmao thank you to all those on this thread (you know who you are) for restoring my faith in the kindness and generosity of the human race. You're all gems! (NOT!!!)

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Originally Posted by s.chapman

I joined this forum for some friendly advice as how to do so many changes I had to get my BP's used to and instead I receive useless lazy advice that I could have simply gotten off google AND to top it all off I get shoved down my throat that I shouldn't be tub feeding my BP's like it's the worst thing in the world and then get told by some ametuer that I'm being rude when I asked an innocent question lmao thank you to all those on this thread (you know who you are) for restoring my faith in the kindness and generosity of the human race. You're all gems! (NOT!!!)

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Nobody was rude to you. You came here and asked some questions. You even stated that were "in over your head". You got some great advice and then started acting like an ass. You need to check yourself.

When I was a newbie BP mom I read lots of care sheets and books...about 50% recommended feeding outside of their enclosure...and I tried it with Cleo and she would not eat...after about 6 tries I gave up and tried feeding her in her enclosure, she slammed it. I think finding her in her hide, moving the hide so I could get to her, then moving her to an open tub was too much stress. She did much better when she could stick her head out, spot the prey and ambush it! And she has never struck out at me whether hungry or not...

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Originally Posted by s.chapman

I joined this forum for some friendly advice as how to do so many changes I had to get my BP's used to and instead I receive useless lazy advice that I could have simply gotten off google AND to top it all off I get shoved down my throat that I shouldn't be tub feeding my BP's like it's the worst thing in the world and then get told by some ametuer that I'm being rude when I asked an innocent question lmao thank you to all those on this thread (you know who you are) for restoring my faith in the kindness and generosity of the human race. You're all gems! (NOT!!!)

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I'm pretty sure you did get good advice, you're just too ignorant to take it. How is it that you, someone who as far as I can tell has kept one ball python for ten years, know more about these animals then people who have kept multiple for far longer then you. Regardless of whether you're keeping the animals as breeders or as pets they are still animals that you love. Let's be real here, with the market the way it is now there's no one getting into the hobby as a way to make fast cash, they're in it for the love of the animals.

Yes, you should switch to frozen mice, then to frozen rats. Tub feeding really makes no difference. For the first eight years I kept these animals I always tub fed but the main reason was because I was housing two snakes together (which was stupid) as soon as I separated them I started to feed them in their enclosures. Are they now savage monsters? No! Also before you say something about them being tamer because they started off with tub feeding this is just plain not true. All of the animals I picked up since then (including a carpet python) have always been fed in their enclosures and they all have awesome temperaments.

If you have multiple people telling you the same thing is it possible they're wrong? Yeah, but it's less likely. Call it confirmation bias if you want it's still true.

This is just SO FAR OUT THERE, I'm not even sure that this isn't a "troll" ...here to cause drama.

No-one can be that ignorant. Or can they? And rude, some ?

Well, go get your snake a juicy rat to sink his "fangs" into (fangs, really??)
And aren't you sweet to them. Now that they aren't "cash cows" anymore, and won't need to "flail wildly in their tub", they get to have a tea party with you.

And you are crazy if you think I abuse my snakes. They are thriving , they eat every time, they are healthy, calm and never "flail". The ONLY time I have TOUCHED THEM on the head (not slap them, duh) was when they were in feeding mode, but I needed to remove them out of the enclosure. One slight touch and they know no rat is coming. That is simply a learned "cause and effect" for them. Most animal training is based on routine and cause and effect. Perhaps you should educate yourself some more, rather then spout immature insults at people that were nothing but helpful to you. As for water spraying being "mean"?? I guess misting the tank and some of the over spray hitting the snake (which happens just about every time one mists the tub or cage for humidity) is "mean" ??

Anyone can google articles that fit one's ideas. That doesn't make those ideas "true fact". Nothing takes the place of experience. Deb is one of the most experienced keepers. So are many others on here.

Do what you want, you will anyway. You obviously only came here to gloat about how much smarter you are then anyone else when it comes to snake keeping.

Have you ever stopped and wondered that it is YOU that is cruel and unkind to the snakes ? That perhaps you haven't taken them from their "cash cow" existence, but instead, taken them from a enclosure and existence that they felt SAFE in. And now you are trying to shove your "perfect little life on the snake prairie" fairly tale on them, of the "perfect" snake life that does nothing but stress them out ? Yeah, REAL KIND there !! Talk about causing un-necessary stress and harm.

Keep telling yourself whatever it is you want to hear. Apparently you like to hear yourself talk and everyone else is wrong and stupid/lazy/mean and what not.

Like you said...CIAO !!


sorry to everybody else ;)

So you know everything there is to know about ball pythons? Feeding outside the enclosure will indeed almost guarantee you get tagged. Back in my rookie days of keeping I used to feed in a separate enclosure and that poor snake went off feed for an extended amount of time. How dare you come on here with your pompous attitude and insult people that have been keeping and breeding snakes for years. Deborah is 100% spot on with her advice and so is everyone else but I wouldn't want to offend your "expert" opinions and experience with ball pythons. You are nothing more then an ignorant know it all. Keep your snakes however the hell you want, but don't come here complaining when things don't work out for you. You are the one that is rude and quite obnoxious to be honest.

Hopefully I don't get flagged for piling on here ... but last night I reached into my baby leopard's enclosure and scooped him up before noticing he was deep in blue. His breeder warned me that he was very nippy, but over the last two months I've been gently working with him a couple times a week without seeing a strike.

Last night was no exception, he let me pick him up and explored around for a short couple of minutes before I put him back; not wanting to over stress the little guy.

Today is feeding day, and he popped out of his hide and struck the thawed rat instantly. He had no problem distinguishing food from friend.


Besides, there is no feeding tub training in the wild, and snakes have no problem telling what is food from what to fight, and what to hide/run from.

You're all clueless and you all need psychological help if you think your poop smells like roses!

Now we're at straight insults? I understand that you've been given information that you don't agree with, but there's no need for that kind of language. Most of the keepers and breeders here agree on the way certain things are done, but there are others that have their own way of doing things as well. I'm sorry you couldn't get the answers you were looking for here.

Don't feed the troll. Not live, not FT. Not in its enclosure, out of it or on this forum ;)

I think this thread should be closed now. Clearly this person doesn't actually want any help and is only here to cause trouble.

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Originally Posted by Kira

I think this thread should be closed now. Clearly this person doesn't actually want any help and is only here to cause trouble.

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It is being monitored closely so we will see how it goes before deciding to close it, if we do.

Glad to hear it! Thanks for the fast response Deborah.

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Originally Posted by s.chapman

You're all clueless and you all need psychological help if you think your poop smells like roses!

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This is the first thing I read and lol.

Look, if you don't want help (the advice on the first page is always there to check out, whenever you feel like it), then just do your own thing. You clearly have strong opinions about this, and that's fine. But attacking other people's way of doing things (especially when all my snakes are super chill, and they eat in the enclosure) is also not cool. Just take a break from here and try your own methods and ideas first.

Some people have been feeding in a separate bin for years and everything was always fine, and that's great. The point is that feeding inside their enclosure without handling them beforehand makes it EVEN EASIER to get them to eat f/t. If you want to stick to your ways and try your ideas first, that's fine too. It's just advice.

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Originally Posted by s.chapman

I joined this forum for some friendly advice as how to do so many changes I had to get my BP's used to and instead I receive useless lazy advice that I could have simply gotten off google AND to top it all off I get shoved down my throat that I shouldn't be tub feeding my BP's like it's the worst thing in the world and then get told by some ametuer that I'm being rude when I asked an innocent question lmao thank you to all those on this thread (you know who you are) for restoring my faith in the kindness and generosity of the human race. You're all gems! (NOT!!!)

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YOU come here asking for help.
Keep that in mind BEFORE you want to try to continue with the insults and name calling.
There are people here trying to give you information that have been keeping ball pythons longer than you have been alive.

All that being said, there is NO reason to move your animals to feed. I understand that you only have a couple but if/when you get some size to your collection you will understand a couple things about proper husbandry and reasons why experienced keepers give the advice that we do.
Till then, think before your fingers hit the keyboard and show some respect.

Well to help with the original question, try scenting, change the scent ether by using used bedding or defrosting mice and rats together. If the scent changes to something they like then they will eat it.

I am on a budget. I had no choice but to switch from live to f/t cause my rat colony has chosen not to breed since mid fall. I starved my biggest ones for a month. Refuse to do that to the babies. My yearlings and adults have been chowing on f/t like nothing.
My friend there is tons of good info and a lot of good people on here that will not steer you wrong. Deborah, PitOnTheProwl, akaDave n Albert are top notch people to take advice from. Juat to name a few. Good people for surw. Trust me.

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