Craigslist Listing

I am not an expert when it comes to ball pythons. I currently have two, but am trying to find a home for one of them. After posting my ad on craigslist (IDK what else to do @ this point). I saw an ad for an adult bp for sale. To me, it looks emaciated and pitiful. Not to mention..are those pine shavings?hmm.

I'm not an expert though, like I said. Am I wrong?
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...fx_600x450.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...mU_600x450.jpg

Looks thin but not emaciated. And those do look like pine shavings, which are actually toxic to snakes (and all reptiles for that matter). Poor thing.

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Originally Posted by Trisnake

Looks thin but not emaciated. And those do look like pine shavings, which are actually toxic to snakes (and all reptiles for that matter). Poor thing.

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Many snake keepers use pine with snakes with no ill effect and have done so for decades.


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...at+pine+debate

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Many snake keepers use pine with snakes with no ill effect and have done so for decades.


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...at+pine+debate

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I understand this but I just feel that while there aren't many (if any) studies of the effects of pine oils on reptiles specifically, the multitude of other studies done on various species that conclude the detrimental effects of exposure make it relatively safe (for me at least) to assume it's not safe for cold-blooded animals either. At the very least, we don't know definitively whether it's safe or not, and that uncertainty combined with related research that it's unsafe for a vast variety of animals and the experiences of others just raises a bit of a red flag for me.

I get that it's a practice a lot of people use and that some people (perhaps most) have never experienced issues with pine shavings. I guess I'm just of the mind that just because they haven't had an issue yet doesn't mean they wont later on, or that perhaps things ARE occurring but just not being noticed or attributed to the pine oil. Long term low dose exposure to even mildly toxic materials can have detrimental effects much further down the road, decades even. Kind of like all these medications that are FDA approved safe after a 5 year study that causes cancer or other issues that develop maybe 15 or 20 years down the road. We just don't know, and it's hard to document the exact cause of the ailment in these situations because of the relatively short timeline we put on disease processes and the long timeline for the exposure to the possible causative agent.

Idk. I'm rambling. It's a "to each their own" situation, everyone keeps their snakes differently, but for me I interpret the evidence as pointing towards pine being unsafe, at the very least not optimal. I personally would never keep my snakes on pine simply because I don't even want there to be a possibility of their lifespans being shortened by a decision of mine. Just my 2 cents, I'll stick to aspen and newspaper ;) thanks for the link, it's an interesting read

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Many snake keepers use pine with snakes with no ill effect and have done so for decades.


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...at+pine+debate

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I understand this but I just feel that while there aren't many (if any) studies of the effects of pine oils on reptiles specifically, the multitude of other studies done on various species that conclude the detrimental effects of exposure make it relatively safe (for me at least) to assume it's not safe for cold-blooded animals either. At the very least, we don't know definitively whether it's safe or not, and that uncertainty combined with related research that it's unsafe for a vast variety of animals and the experiences of others just raises a bit of a red flag for me.

I get that it's a practice a lot of people use and that some people (perhaps most) have never experienced issues with pine shavings. I guess I'm just of the mind that just because they haven't had an issue yet doesn't mean they wont later on, or that perhaps things ARE occurring but just not being noticed or attributed to the pine oil. Long term low dose exposure to even mildly toxic materials can have detrimental effects much further down the road, decades even. Kind of like all these medications that are FDA approved safe after a 5 year study that causes cancer or other issues that develop maybe 15 or 20 years down the road. We just don't know, and it's hard to document the exact cause of the ailment in these situations because of the relatively short timeline we put on disease processes and the long timeline for the exposure to the possible causative agent.

Idk. I'm rambling. It's a "to each their own" situation, everyone keeps their snakes differently, but for me I interpret the evidence as pointing towards pine being unsafe, at the very least not optimal. Just my 2 cents, I'll stick to aspen and newspaper ;) thanks for the link, it's an interesting read

I'd say it's very possible that person got a snake at a big box pet store... we all know of them...without doing much research (if any) and some person there said, "you need a log hide, a heat mat, some pine shavings and a water bowl. Feed it a mouse (whatever size) a few times a month", and that was it.

I've been in pet stores and heard this myself. It happens all the time. It's sad, but it's reality. Happens with pretty much any "pet" you can imagine. :(

What about snakes that live in pine forests? Def not trying to stir the pot here, but it seems like all kinds of snakes come in contact with pine in the wild with no issues. Back in the 80s before I knew any better I would use pine needles as substrate all the time with no apparent ill effects. Even pine bark chips.

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Originally Posted by Trisnake

Looks thin but not emaciated. And those do look like pine shavings, which are actually toxic to snakes (and all reptiles for that matter). Poor thing.

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It very well could be aspen shavings. The ones from petco look exactly like the pine shavings

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The wood isn't the toxic part, its the phenols or oils which are. Those are cooked off in kiln dried pine. And yes those could be aspen shavings too. There are different grades of the stuff. There is shredded, chipped or shaved.

And to answer your question, the snake looks thin like mentioned but it doesn't look starved. The cage looks way too small for it though. Don't see any stuck shed or extra wrinkly like it is dehydrated but then again, the pictures are that great but overall, not too terrible.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've seen a lot worse on Craigslist. A lot of times people will post photos of snakes with stuck shed or loose skin. I once saw a snake who was kept in a tank with nothing but reptile carpet and a heat rock, poor thing. Sometimes I wonder how these poor babies survive such awful conditions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trisnake

I understand this but I just feel that while there aren't many (if any) studies of the effects of pine oils on reptiles specifically, the multitude of other studies done on various species that conclude the detrimental effects of exposure make it relatively safe (for me at least) to assume it's not safe for cold-blooded animals either. At the very least, we don't know definitively whether it's safe or not, and that uncertainty combined with related research that it's unsafe for a vast variety of animals and the experiences of others just raises a bit of a red flag for me.

I get that it's a practice a lot of people use and that some people (perhaps most) have never experienced issues with pine shavings. I guess I'm just of the mind that just because they haven't had an issue yet doesn't mean they wont later on, or that perhaps things ARE occurring but just not being noticed or attributed to the pine oil. Long term low dose exposure to even mildly toxic materials can have detrimental effects much further down the road, decades even. Kind of like all these medications that are FDA approved safe after a 5 year study that causes cancer or other issues that develop maybe 15 or 20 years down the road. We just don't know, and it's hard to document the exact cause of the ailment in these situations because of the relatively short timeline we put on disease processes and the long timeline for the exposure to the possible causative agent.

Idk. I'm rambling. It's a "to each their own" situation, everyone keeps their snakes differently, but for me I interpret the evidence as pointing towards pine being unsafe, at the very least not optimal. I personally would never keep my snakes on pine simply because I don't even want there to be a possibility of their lifespans being shortened by a decision of mine. Just my 2 cents, I'll stick to aspen and newspaper ;) thanks for the link, it's an interesting read

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Actually a lot of other things can contribute to life shortening that are much more common. The biggest thing being overfeeding. Probably 90% of the snakes kept are overfed and underexercised. They don't need to move or hunt. They just sit and eat every week. Add to this newspaper which is slick and doesn't allow any real griping so they lose muscle tone as well. I'm not sure if its true but I have heard a few people say that boas kept on newspaper for years start to "pancake" as in they lose muscle tone and cant keep that square shape as they have spent years having to try and flatten themselves out to try and get grip on newspaper.

Not sure if its true but I use shredded aspen for all my snakes and as soon as my last 2 bails run out, i'm going to switch over to ReptiChips as a lot of boa and retic guys I've talked to have said the stuff is awesome and Jmcrook is using it now for his retic and says the stuff is great and not dusty.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

I'm not sure if its true but I have heard a few people say that boas kept on newspaper for years start to "pancake" as in they lose muscle tone and cant keep that square shape as they have spent years having to try and flatten themselves out to try and get grip on newspaper.

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As someone that has kept boas for years and years on newspaper, I'll just say that is not true.
;)

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Actually a lot of.... ...................;.........Add to this newspaper which is slick and doesn't allow any real griping so they lose muscle tone as well. I'm not sure if its true but I have heard a few people say that boas kept on newspaper for years start to "pancake" as in they lose muscle tone and cant keep that square shape as they have spent years having to try and flatten themselves out to try and get grip on newspaper.

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Don't know how that urban legend got started, but I don't think that is physiologically possible. Now losing muscle tone due to serious lack of movement over time, yes. But morphing into a whole new shape or starting to, no.

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Originally Posted by the_rotten1

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've seen a lot worse on Craigslist. A lot of times people will post photos of snakes with stuck shed or loose skin. I once saw a snake who was kept in a tank with nothing but reptile carpet and a heat rock, poor thing. Sometimes I wonder how these poor babies survive such awful conditions.

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There is a female BP up around my area in a 55gal tank with NO hides. Just a crap ton of wood climbing sticks, nothing else. Poor thing probably feels so exposed.