Super Coral Glow - male or female maker?

I tried searching and it's purely a curiosity, with sex being linked has anyone figured out what this does in a super form in regards to the hatchlings being male vs female makers?

I would guess it'd be towards a 50/50 clutch, but I'm not positive


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I'm pretty sure they produce normal sex ratios.

I never really understood how coral glow could be sex linked. Can't you regulate the sex of babies by the temperature you incubate them at?

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Originally Posted by Insane

I never really understood how coral glow could be sex linked. Can't you regulate the sex of babies by the temperature you incubate them at?

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Not with ball pythons you can't.

As for CG and Banana they are the only known mutation affecting sex ratio, why? No one knows it just does.

Males produced by a male CG or Banana will produce males Banana or CG and very rarely will produce a female CG or Banana

Males produced by a female CG or Banana will produce females Banana or CG and very rarely will produce a male CG or Banana

Females will produce equal sex ratio.



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I guess to expand if you had a female maker male to a female if it would result in a different ratio than a male maker to female. Just a curiosity if it's been tracked/established in the super form.

The best way I can describe it on the more genetic level. Is that the gene for the banana color allele is found on the sex chromosomes. On a female it doesn't do the sex ratio thing since there are 2 X chromosomes and it doesn't matter which chromosome the gene is on. It works with males since there is only one of each. And if the male banana gets its gene from its mother, then the gene for banana is on its X chromosome. So any time the male sends an X chromosome making a female baby, it'll carry the banana gene with it. Where as sending a Y chromosome won't have the gene. Making a female maker. the same is true for the male side of the equation.
The reason for the random male or female banana where it shouldn't be, is due to crossover. Where during mitosis or meiosis, genes get swapped from one chromosome to another, swapping the banana gene from the X to the Y chromosome in a female maker, giving you that random male. The super form of the banana has a gene for the banana allele of both the X and Y chromosome, so all male and female with show as banana.

I hope this makes sense. And helps some.

Kyle


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Originally Posted by Kroberts10

The best way I can describe it on the more genetic level. Is that the gene for the banana color allele is found on the sex chromosomes. On a female it doesn't do the sex ratio thing since there are 2 X chromosomes and it doesn't matter which chromosome the gene is on. It works with males since there is only one of each. And if the male banana gets its gene from its mother, then the gene for banana is on its X chromosome. So any time the male sends an X chromosome making a female baby, it'll carry the banana gene with it. Where as sending a Y chromosome won't have the gene. Making a female maker. the same is true for the male side of the equation.
The reason for the random male or female banana where it shouldn't be, is due to crossover. Where during mitosis or meiosis, genes get swapped from one chromosome to another, swapping the banana gene from the X to the Y chromosome in a female maker, giving you that random male. The super form of the banana has a gene for the banana allele of both the X and Y chromosome, so all male and female with show as banana.

I hope this makes sense. And helps some.

Kyle


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The problem with this is that the female is the heterozygote (ZW) and the male is the homozygote (WW).


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That does throw a kink in that train of thought. I was working off the assumption they had a chromosomal structure similar to mammals. I need to do some more looking into reptile genetics. I wonder how works then?

Kyle


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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

The problem with this is that the female is the heterozygote (ZW) and the male is the homozygote (WW).


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Has this been proven or is it still just assume from other snakes? Because if females were heretozygotes then wouldn't partho clutches be equal ratios instead of being all female?

That's why I was hoping someone's tested it. Maybe even to point of testing female maker male to female vs male maker to female.

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Originally Posted by bks2100

Has this been proven or is it still just assume from other snakes? Because if females were heretozygotes then wouldn't partho clutches be equal ratios instead of being all female?

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The burmese python is the only snake (that i know of) that has had its genome completely sequenced. Pygmy rattlesnakes and garter snakes have had part of theirs sequenced and they all point to the above mentioned. The odds of it being reversed are very slim.

Parthenogenesis is a strange anomaly in which the offspring (atleast of those observed in the case of one mother producing three litters) have had WW sex chromosomes. The outcome was fourty-some babies with WW. Unfortunately i'm on my phone and dont have the link but you can find a write-up about it online. It appears that only the W is copied and passed on to the offspring.

You bring up a good point though. Unfortunately limited studies have been done concerning reptile genomics so we only have so much to go off of.


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Also burms and ball pythons have successfully made hybrids, giving more doubt to the XY theory.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Also burms and ball pythons have successfully made hybrids, giving more doubt to the XY theory.

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^And the hybrids have been bred and produced offspring, proving that they are fertile.


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Originally Posted by Kroberts10

The best way I can describe it on the more genetic level. Is that the gene for the banana color allele is found on the sex chromosomes. On a female it doesn't do the sex ratio thing since there are 2 X chromosomes and it doesn't matter which chromosome the gene is on. It works with males since there is only one of each. And if the male banana gets its gene from its mother, then the gene for banana is on its X chromosome. So any time the male sends an X chromosome making a female baby, it'll carry the banana gene with it. Where as sending a Y chromosome won't have the gene. Making a female maker. the same is true for the male side of the equation.
The reason for the random male or female banana where it shouldn't be, is due to crossover. Where during mitosis or meiosis, genes get swapped from one chromosome to another, swapping the banana gene from the X to the Y chromosome in a female maker, giving you that random male. The super form of the banana has a gene for the banana allele of both the X and Y chromosome, so all male and female with show as banana.

I hope this makes sense. And helps some.

Kyle


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This is exactly what I was thinking. I'm glad someone else was thinking the same thing, now I know I'm not just crazy XD This explanation makes a lot of sense so it'd be strange if ball python females truly were heterozygous. I'd almost say the banana trait helps support them being homozygous.

Although if their genome has been sequenced and they are heterozygous it definitely adds a certain sort of mystery to the banana trait.

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Originally Posted by kxr

This is exactly what I was thinking. I'm glad someone else was thinking the same thing, now I know I'm not just crazy XD This explanation makes a lot of sense so it'd be strange if ball python females truly were heterozygous. I'd almost say the banana trait helps support them being homozygous.

Although if their genome has been sequenced and they are heterozygous it definitely adds a certain sort of mystery to the banana trait.

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This is what it would appear at first glance without knowing that female snakes are the heterogamete. While the ball python has not had its genome sequenced, other species of snakes have had their genome sequenced and they have followed this rule. Obviously we cannot know for certain if the ball python follows this as well without sequencing its genome, but the possibility that it differs is unlikely.

If it turned out that the male was the heterogamete it would solve this problem. But as ohhwataloser stated, burms and balls have been hybridized, making it even more unlikely.


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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

This is what it would appear at first glance without knowing that female snakes are the heterogamete. While the ball python has not had its genome sequenced, other species of snakes have had their genome sequenced and they have followed this rule. Obviously we cannot know for certain if the ball python follows this as well without sequencing its genome, but the possibility that it differs is unlikely.

If it turned out that the male was the heterogamete it would solve this problem. But as ohhwataloser stated, burms and balls have been hybridized, making it even more unlikely.


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That is a problem, one would assume that in animals as closely related as Burms and balls seemingly are the chromosomal arrangement would be highly conserved. I'm not aware of any organisms where this isn't true however I'd imagine it isn't impossible. What I am curious about is whether two related organisms that have different patterns of sex chromosomes would even be able to produce viable offspring. I'd really like to see what sexes a male burm female ball breeding would produce because that would answer the question.

I apologize if that has already happened and I'm just not aware. Please let me know if it has.

The last time I read up on it, the ZW thing has been around since the beginning of time as far as we can tell. Some point in evolution Mammals developed the XY in a common ancestor to both snake and humans. I bring this up so some can understand this happen a really long time ago and it's not something that just happens all the time. Switching to XY would be ground breaking, it's not just a random monogenetic mutation like pastel, it would be something that disrupts a pattern hundreds of millions of years long. Given we have other systems, it obviously is not impossible. But to think ball pythons managed to make the switch has to be taken with a pile of salt. I think most would need a little more proof than a gene that only fits with the other model with a pretty high crossing over rate on top of it.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

The last time I read up on it, the ZW thing has been around since the beginning of time as far as we can tell. Some point in evolution Mammals developed the XY in a common ancestor to both snake and humans. I bring this up so some can understand this happen a really long time ago and it's not something that just happens all the time. Switching to XY would be ground breaking, it's not just a random monogenetic mutation like pastel, it would be something that disrupts a pattern hundreds of millions of years long. Given we have other systems, it obviously is not impossible. But to think ball pythons managed to make the switch has to be taken with a pile of salt. I think most would need a little more proof than a gene that only fits with the other model with a pretty high crossing over rate on top of it.

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I was thinking that maybe in the python genus it had switched to the female being zz instead of the male however I was just showing my ignorance. Burmese pythons are in fact in the python genus anyway (which I'm really dumb for not remembering because I've done a few projects on them) and apparently (I know nothing about ZW sex determination) in all applicable species the males are zz. The rate of crossover required for the banana gene to follow that mode of inheritance is another good point. I'm just going to shut up now so I don't seem as stupid to the people who know what's going on here...

Just out of curiosity do you know the underlying principles behind the inheritance patterns of the banana gene?

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Originally Posted by kxr

I was thinking that maybe in the python genus it had switched to the female being zz instead of the male however I was just showing my ignorance. Burmese pythons are in fact in the python genus anyway (which I'm really dumb for not remembering because I've done a few projects on them) and apparently (I know nothing about ZW sex determination) in all applicable species the males are zz. The rate of crossover required for the banana gene to follow that mode of inheritance is another good point. I'm just going to shut up now so I don't seem as stupid to the people who know what's going on here...

Just out of curiosity do you know the underlying principles behind the inheritance patterns of the banana gene?

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When I mention the switch I mean what you describe, in your example females could be ww also in theory. But it is a highly unlikely scenario was my point. Also no one is stupid here, just having a discussion, and don't think any of us know what's going on exactly. it an anomaly that I have yet to have anyone explain it in a way without holes in the theory.

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Originally Posted by kxr

That is a problem, one would assume that in animals as closely related as Burms and balls seemingly are the chromosomal arrangement would be highly conserved. I'm not aware of any organisms where this isn't true however I'd imagine it isn't impossible. What I am curious about is whether two related organisms that have different patterns of sex chromosomes would even be able to produce viable offspring. I'd really like to see what sexes a male burm female ball breeding would produce because that would answer the question.

I apologize if that has already happened and I'm just not aware. Please let me know if it has.

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Originally Posted by kxr

I was thinking that maybe in the python genus it had switched to the female being zz instead of the male however I was just showing my ignorance. Burmese pythons are in fact in the python genus anyway (which I'm really dumb for not remembering because I've done a few projects on them) and apparently (I know nothing about ZW sex determination) in all applicable species the males are zz. The rate of crossover required for the banana gene to follow that mode of inheritance is another good point. I'm just going to shut up now so I don't seem as stupid to the people who know what's going on here...

Just out of curiosity do you know the underlying principles behind the inheritance patterns of the banana gene?

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I dont believe a male burm to a female ball would work out due to the possible size and quantity of eggs. Similar to how a chihuahua can breed a great dane but the smaller dog (chihuahua) has to be the male.

No worries about the mixup. Nobody understands whats going on with it so we're all looking for explanations.


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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

I dont believe a male burm to a female ball would work out due to the possible size and quantity of eggs. Similar to how a chihuahua can breed a great dane but the smaller dog (chihuahua) has to be the male.

No worries about the mixup. Nobody understands whats going on with it so we're all looking for explanations.


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If you bred a dwarf burm to one of those subsaharan balls it would probably work. I'm not really sure what you mean by quantity of eggs


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Originally Posted by kxr

If you bred a dwarf burm to one of those subsaharan balls it would probably work. I'm not really sure what you mean by quantity of eggs


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That might work. You can disregard the quantity statement. It was regarding clutch size but i failed neglected that it is dependent on follicle development, which the male has no control over. As long as the eggs would not be too large for the ball it should work out.


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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

That might work. You can disregard the quantity statement. It was regarding clutch size but i failed neglected that it is dependent on follicle development, which the male has no control over. As long as the eggs would not be too large for the ball it should work out.


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It's too bad burms are illegal here (and I have no idea how to get a sub Saharan ball) I would love to try this just to see what the results would be. I understand it's pretty much impossible considering the required recombinance rate and the fact that one (or possibly a small number) of species in a genus would need to develop unique sex characteristics however it would still be interesting to see what happens.

I guess I'm just really interested in the mechanism behind the banana gene.


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Originally Posted by kxr

It's too bad burms are illegal here (and I have no idea how to get a sub Saharan ball) I would love to try this just to see what the results would be. I understand it's pretty much impossible considering the required recombinance rate and the fact that one (or possibly a small number) of species in a genus would need to develop unique sex characteristics however it would still be interesting to see what happens.

I guess I'm just really interested in the mechanism behind the banana gene.


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I'm not sure if i'm misunderstanding you about the results of a burm x ball being nearly impossible but it is far from it. Its been done over and over and the hybrid offsping have even been bred to other burmballs to produce offspring. I apologize if i'm misunderstanding your statements.

I'm currently working on learning and understanding reptile genomics at university (as a personal research and once i get a basis possibly go for a grant and research opportunity) and want to try to figure this thing out.


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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

I'm not sure if i'm misunderstanding you about the results of a burm x ball being nearly impossible but it is far from it. Its been done over and over and the hybrid offsping have even been bred to other burmballs to produce offspring. I apologize if i'm misunderstanding your statements.

I'm currently working on learning and understanding reptile genomics at university (as a personal research and once i get a basis possibly go for a grant and research opportunity) and want to try to figure this thing out.


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That's awesome man! So you actually study reptile genomics? I wish I knew that was a program offered somewhere before I started uni haha

Yeah I worded that horribly, sometimes when I try to talk all sciencey it takes me a few tries to word my sentences properly lol

I meant to say that I understand how unlikely it is for the method of sex determination to be changed in a small percentage of a given genus but I'd still like to try to pairing.




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Originally Posted by kxr

That's awesome man! So you actually study reptile genomics? I wish I knew that was a program offered somewhere before I started uni haha

Yeah I worded that horribly, sometimes when I try to talk all sciencey it takes me a few tries to word my sentences properly lol

I meant to say that I understand how unlikely it is for the method of sex determination to be changed in a small percentage of a given genus but I'd still like to try to pairing.




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Right now its mainly individual research that i'm doing. Just laying the groundwork for future research. Ive talked to a few professors/doctors of biology and most of them arent too knowledgable about the ZW sex determination system. I am going to be speaking with another prof on friday who works with herps. Right now i'm just a bio major that plans on specializing in herpetology/conservation/evolutionary biology.

If the pairing was done and was successful and it turns out the female ball python is the heterozygote all offspring would have to be ZZ. Whichever species has the larger gametes would determine whether that would be male or female.


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Where do you go to university? Is it like an actual program you're taking on herpetology & evolutionary biology or is it more of an independent study topic? If it's something the school actually offers that sounds like where I need to be heading XD

All of the offspring would be zz? Considering you're a major and I'm only a 4th year undergrad I'd imagine there's something I'm missing but if you cross a ZZ male burm to a WZ (or whatever) ball would it not have theoretically equal sex ratios?

Although I suppose if the female was homo it could still be 50/50 if she was ww instead of zz

Definitely interesting to think about regardless of how astronomically unlikely it is.


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Originally Posted by kxr

Where do you go to university? Is it like an actual program you're taking on herpetology & evolutionary biology or is it more of an independent study topic? If it's something the school actually offers that sounds like where I need to be heading XD

All of the offspring would be zz? Considering you're a major and I'm only a 4th year undergrad I'd imagine there's something I'm missing but if you cross a ZZ male burm to a WZ (or whatever) ball would it not have theoretically equal sex ratios?

Although I suppose if the female was homo it could still be 50/50 if she was ww instead of zz

Definitely interesting to think about regardless of how astronomically unlikely it is.


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I'm still an undergrad at West Chester University. All of my current research is independent on my free time. I wish they offered a specialty degree in that area. Besides taking concentrated courses in those areas i can only get a general bio degree with a limited amount of specialties. Most of the profs here work with other animals, such as snails and mammals.

I thought you were talking about crossing the two to see if the ball had opposite sex gametes. My bad. Following the normal patterns it would have normal ratios.

WW is very rare in snakes. As far as Ive seen it has only resulted from parthenogenesis.

With the small amount of research that has been conducted on reptile genomics I look forward to hopefully opening up new doors.


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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

I'm still an undergrad at West Chester University. All of my current research is independent on my free time. I wish they offered a specialty degree in that area. Besides taking concentrated courses in those areas i can only get a general bio degree with a limited amount of specialties. Most of the profs here work with other animals, such as snails and mammals.

I thought you were talking about crossing the two to see if the ball had opposite sex gametes. My bad. Following the normal patterns it would have normal ratios.

WW is very rare in snakes. As far as Ive seen it has only resulted from parthenogenesis.

With the small amount of research that has been conducted on reptile genomics I look forward to hopefully opening up new doors.


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No, you were right, but you said in your previous post if you bred a male burm to a het female ball it would produce ZZ phenotype babies. I guess I should have assumed you meant to say a homo female ball python.

Yeah, you would get ZZ offspring if you bred a ZZ male burm to a ZZ female ball so they would all be a single sex. That's why I wanted to try the cross. If the cross only gave off one sex then you would know that female balls are indeed ZZ.

Now all I'm thinking is would a ZZ burmball be able to breed both male ball pythons and female Burmese pythons or would it be infertile... I think I've fallen too far down the rabbit hole lol

Edit: I just saw that you said whichever species had the larger gamete would decide gender. How does that work?

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Originally Posted by kxr

No, you were right, but you said in your previous post if you bred a male burm to a het female ball it would produce ZZ phenotype babies. I guess I should have assumed you meant to say a homo female ball python.

Yeah, you would get ZZ offspring if you bred a ZZ male burm to a ZZ female ball so they would all be a single sex. That's why I wanted to try the cross. If the cross only gave off one sex then you would know that female balls are indeed ZZ.

Now all I'm thinking is would a ZZ burmball be able to breed both male ball pythons and female Burmese pythons or would it be infertile... I think I've fallen too far down the rabbit hole lol

Edit: I just saw that you said whichever species had the larger gamete would decide gender. How does that work?

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Sorry that was my bad. I meant to say homo ZZ. Producing all of one sex (over several trials and specimens of course) would prove that they differ from burms in their sex gametes. It should still be fertile like other burmballs, but only trials would tell.

Because (in this hypothetical situation) in one species ZZ codes for male and in the other it codes for female the larger sex chromosomes would determine which species decided the sex. I'm not exactly sure of the specifics on this though.

We still have so much to learn about this. Fortunately the burms genome sequence gives off something to work off of but obviously it isnt the same so there are areas that we are left to assume are the same with balls.


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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

Sorry that was my bad. I meant to say homo ZZ. Producing all of one sex (over several trials and specimens of course) would prove that they differ from burms in their sex gametes. It should still be fertile like other burmballs, but only trials would tell.

Because (in this hypothetical situation) in one species ZZ codes for male and in the other it codes for female the larger sex chromosomes would determine which species decided the sex. I'm not exactly sure of the specifics on this though.

We still have so much to learn about this. Fortunately the burms genome sequence gives off something to work off of but obviously it isnt the same so there are areas that we are left to assume are the same with balls.


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Yep! In order to make this a truly scientific study it would likely take many years to obtain enough viable hybrid clutches.

I'm still confused as to how the larger gamete would control gender but considering you don't fully understand this either I'd assume you found this result in a study regarding different species somewhere. Which would, in my naive eyes anyway, lead more credibility to this scenario.

I'm not really a fan of hybrids TBH so I don't think I would do this even if I lived somewhere where burms were legal. I just find it really fascinating and I enjoy talking about it with someone who's knowledgeable.


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Originally Posted by kxr

Yep! In order to make this a truly scientific study it would likely take many years to obtain enough viable hybrid clutches.

I'm still confused as to how the larger gamete would control gender but considering you don't fully understand this either I'd assume you found this result in a study regarding different species somewhere. Which would, in my naive eyes anyway, lead more credibility to this scenario.

I'm not really a fan of hybrids TBH so I don't think I would do this even if I lived somewhere where burms were legal. I just find it really fascinating and I enjoy talking about it with someone who's knowledgeable.


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I learned about the gamete size playing a role from one of the profs here while discussing the scenario. He agreed though that the odds of such closely related species having opposite gametes would be very rare.

Personally i dont mind hybrids that much as long as the individual is healthy and thriving. I'm glad that i found someone to discuss this with that has an idea about the matter rather than sitting alone or rambling on to someone who has no idea what i'm talking about :).


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