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Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
I received my python on the 2nd this month, and after leaving him alone for about 6 days have been trying to feed him, in decreasing size every 4 days, a f/t mouse. I tried in the tank, he ignored it. I left it overnight and nothing. I tried in the tank first the second time around, he looked at it, sniffed it, and ignored it. I then tried moving him to a tub after leaving him with the mouse for a little bit, and he a few times would watch it on the tongs, smell it, and even poke it with his nose but not even try to strike at it. I left him in the tub in his tank with the mouse (in the middle of the tank, a little towards the cool side) overnight and he had just shoved it into a corner. This last time I tried a fuzzy, which is less than his girth (at 108g), that was heated up in hot, not boiling, water and even tried dipping it in chicken broth. Still just got the occasional glance, a poke or two, and then ignorance. I contacted Snakes at Sunset, where I ordered him, and I was told to try an appropriately sized live rodent which would be a small mouse in my case. I assume this means he was fed live at the breeder's, so I can see why that may effect this. I have not handled him outside of moving him to try to feed and putting him back, and he's been left alone for a couple days now.
He is set up in a 40 gal, but I have loaded it with plants, a couple hides and have three sides (currently four as I have draped the towels on top of the tank over the front as well) covered. The warm side is at 86-90, the cool side in the upper to mid 70s. Humidity is kept to at least 50% with damp washcloths on the screen lid, a sheet of plexiglass covering the top, and then towels over top that. He is pretty active, I hear him slithering up the foam background or rustling (and falling) around during the day on occasion and at night. He seems to be pleased with his hides as well, and uses both cool and warm ones.
Should I go to live next time? I plan to do so in a tub he has room to move around in and will supervise. Or is there something else to try first? Wait and keep trying f/t? I realize I can switch him over off live after a few meals. I also do not know when they fed him at the facility last, so I am not 100% when his last meal was. It must not have been very recent, as he has not pooped so he may have digested it (which sounds most logical as he was shipped) before I even put in the order.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrislongdog
I received my python on the 2nd this month, and after leaving him alone for about 6 days have been trying to feed him, in decreasing size every 4 days, a f/t mouse. I tried in the tank, he ignored it. I left it overnight and nothing. I tried in the tank first the second time around, he looked at it, sniffed it, and ignored it. I then tried moving him to a tub after leaving him with the mouse for a little bit, and he a few times would watch it on the tongs, smell it, and even poke it with his nose but not even try to strike at it. I left him in the tub in his tank with the mouse (in the middle of the tank, a little towards the cool side) overnight and he had just shoved it into a corner. This last time I tried a fuzzy, which is less than his girth (at 108g), that was heated up in hot, not boiling, water and even tried dipping it in chicken broth. Still just got the occasional glance, a poke or two, and then ignorance. I contacted Snakes at Sunset, where I ordered him, and I was told to try an appropriately sized live rodent which would be a small mouse in my case. I assume this means he was fed live at the breeder's, so I can see why that may effect this. I have not handled him outside of moving him to try to feed and putting him back, and he's been left alone for a couple days now.
He is set up in a 40 gal, but I have loaded it with plants, a couple hides and have three sides (currently four as I have draped the towels on top of the tank over the front as well) covered. The warm side is at 86-90, the cool side in the upper to mid 70s. Humidity is kept to at least 50% with damp washcloths on the screen lid, a sheet of plexiglass covering the top, and then towels over top that. He is pretty active, I hear him slithering up the foam background or rustling (and falling) around during the day on occasion and at night. He seems to be pleased with his hides as well, and uses both cool and warm ones.
Should I go to live next time? I plan to do so in a tub he has room to move around in and will supervise. Or is there something else to try first? Wait and keep trying f/t? I realize I can switch him over off live after a few meals. I also do not know when they fed him at the facility last, so I am not 100% when his last meal was. It must not have been very recent, as he has not pooped so he may have digested it (which sounds most logical as he was shipped) before I even put in the order.
Have you been moving the prey around at all? I know it sounds kind of strange but mimicking the movement of a live animal helps peak their interest. It may be time to try live though. Honestly in my extremely limited experience it is relatively easy to switch a snake over once it gets comfortable enough with eating the live prey.
Edit: Let me add something rq before someone on here roasts me for not saying it lol
Can you post pictures of the enclosure and give the temperature & humidity you have him at. If nothing else (depending on the weight) it might not be a bad idea to leave him alone for a week or two and come back offering live food.
Also, moving him to the separate container may be stopping him from wanting to eat. I'm honestly not sure if that's a problem with ball pythons but I know my carpet python sure didn't want to eat outside her cage when I first brought her home lol
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Feed in the tank.
Make sure that you are offering the prey at a temp that mimics live prey. A live mouse has a body temp around 100F so you need to get it a bit above that to make the snake recognize it as food.
I have always used water to defrost. After the rodent is thawed I give it fresh water as hot as it will come out of the tap to get the rodents as warm as possible before presenting them to my collection. I at one point used a zip lock bag but they always leaked so I stopped long ago. I feed them soaking wet and nobody has ever seemed to care.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
The temps and humidity said in the first post are current. I'll get a picture of the full setup when it's daytime and the day bulb is on. I did try to "scurry" the mouse around, he seemed scared of it. I did long passes across his hide and he curled up and tucked away his head. He only gets close and pokes it if I hold it nearly still and then he just seems to immediately get bored and decides to ignore it.
The last time I thawed the fuzzy I did so in hot water until it felt warm to the touch, close to live temperature. He followed the heat signature for a second and smelled it but ultimately decided it was of no use to him. He actually seems to pay attention to the prey more in the tub than in the tank where he just smells it once and slithers away, never to touch it again, even staying in the cool hide to avoid the warm one where the mouse was sitting near.
I'll wait another three days to make it five since I last bothered him, and still am considering trying live again as I just don't want to try the f/t and have it fail to leave him without food for another few days.
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100F to me feels more than just warm to the touch, more hot.....to me. Once removed from the water the prey starts to cool fairly quickly. That's why the prey needs to be a good bit over 100 when you take them out.
You don't want to try to often and stress the snake out. You have to find a nice balance and when you do offer food do it as quietly and stress free as possible.
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I'd make sure you aren't using water too hot to thaw the rodent. I'd let it thaw naturally and then heat it with a blow dryer or something like that. If you cook the prey the snake wont take it. If you are buying the prepacked frozen mice from Petsmart or some place like that, just leave the bag out for a couple hours at room temp and it will thaw. Warm it up and present it. The only time I haven't been successful is when I overcooked the prey with overly hot water. it's a lot easier to do than you would think. Good luck! I hope he starts eating for you!
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A 100 grams snake should not be house in an enclosure that is designed for an full grown adult, no matter how much you cover it up, fill up empty spaces the majority of animals that size will not do good. A good enclosure should grow with the animal.
Do this to a T https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101
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In a few days I can try to put a small mouse under a hair dryer since the hottest tap water made it hot but only for a few moments where he would kinda poke at it and then decide against it (if that's not as hot as it should be). I don't know how else to offer it since moving it with the tongs spooks him a little, but he ignores it if it's just still on the ground. I guess since last time it's been less "gross I'm not hungry leave me alone" and more so "nah I'm bored I want to go somewhere else" Hopefully the five days will let him continue acclimating and maybe then he'll be ready. If the hot mouse (I will be careful it's not cooked or dangerous) doesn't get any interest I will probably be trying live just to get him to eat /something/. If he ignores the f/t mouse in his tank should I give it up or try moving him so it's easier to find the heat signature?
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Oh derp I totally missed that second paragraph the first time I read the op. You definitely need to move him to a smaller enclosure, that's likely the reason why he doesn't want to eat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cletus
I'd make sure you aren't using water too hot to thaw the rodent. I'd let it thaw naturally and then heat it with a blow dryer or something like that. If you cook the prey the snake wont take it. If you are buying the prepacked frozen mice from Petsmart or some place like that, just leave the bag out for a couple hours at room temp and it will thaw. Warm it up and present it. The only time I haven't been successful is when I overcooked the prey with overly hot water. it's a lot easier to do than you would think. Good luck! I hope he starts eating for you!
I've never heard this before and I find it really interesting. So you have first hand experience with snakes not wanting to eat food after it's been sitting in hot water for too long? I wonder what changes in the rat to make it undesirable after it's been "overcooked".
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Deborah makes some crucial points. That enclosure is way too big for your snake no matter how much you clutter it up. Husbandry is very important. The feeding technique can be perfect but if he is too stressed to eat, he's not gonna eat.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kxr
Oh derp I totally missed that second paragraph the first time I read the op. You definitely need to move him to a smaller enclosure, that's likely the reason why he doesn't want to eat.
I've never heard this before and I find it really interesting. So you have first hand experience with snakes not wanting to eat food after it's been sitting in hot water for too long? I wonder what changes in the rat to make it undesirable after it's been "overcooked".
Not for too long. It was in water that was too hot. The only reason I mentioned it was that the OP said "was heated up in hot, not boiling, water". I took that to mean really hot water. I might be wrong there but I def have first hand experience. I did it in extremely hot water to speed up the process and I wasted a mouse by basically cooking it. My snake walked up and said "Dude, I said thawed and warmed. Not well done". And that was that.
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Don't warm it too much, very messy....
My baby BP would not eat for me at all, followed Deborah's guide and next feeding day Karma snatched that mouse up so fast:rofl:
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PythonBabes
Don't warm it too much, very messy....
My baby BP would not eat for me at all, followed Deborah's guide and next feeding day Karma snatched that mouse up so fast:rofl:
Yep... I've had first hand experience with that one. It's even worse if you have something that hits their food harder than a ball python. I once let my adult rat get too warm before I tried to feed it to my carpet... It resulted in probably the worst smell I've ever smelt and a big mess to say the least. :puke: Pretty sure that was the closest I've been to throwing up in a long time.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cletus
I'd make sure you aren't using water too hot to thaw the rodent. I'd let it thaw naturally and then heat it with a blow dryer or something like that. If you cook the prey the snake wont take it. If you are buying the prepacked frozen mice from Petsmart or some place like that, just leave the bag out for a couple hours at room temp and it will thaw. Warm it up and present it. The only time I haven't been successful is when I overcooked the prey with overly hot water. it's a lot easier to do than you would think. Good luck! I hope he starts eating for you!
Ive been doing this for a good while now and never had a problem with cooking a rodent. You must have some crazy hot water.
Do you know how long it would take to naturally thaw prey up to a XXL rat? Then trying to heat that properly with a hair dryer?
No thanks.
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So the message I'm getting here is I need to have him in a tub instead? I don't want to put him in yet another new setting to get used to, and I'm not sure what it would look like if he was being stressed out by the size of the current tank?
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cletus
My snake walked up and said "Dude, I said thawed and warmed. Not well done". And that was that.
:rofl:
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrislongdog
So the message I'm getting here is I need to have him in a tub instead? I don't want to put him in yet another new setting to get used to, and I'm not sure what it would look like if he was being stressed out by the size of the current tank?
Moving around a lot, trying to get out, and not eating.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrislongdog
So the message I'm getting here is I need to have him in a tub instead? I don't want to put him in yet another new setting to get used to, and I'm not sure what it would look like if he was being stressed out by the size of the current tank?
I have raised small snakes in large cages and others have too. My BP was always my best feeder until she got a few years old. She started in a 40gal and is still in it today.
Her previous owner was having issues with her but once I set her tank up she started slamming the food and didn't stop until she was a nice healthy adult.
I would say it would be bad to move your snake at this time. To give her more security you may cover some of the cage to limit what she can see on the outside. Taping paper to the outside walls would work fine.
Then as long as you have good hides, offer enough cover, and are properly heating the prey you should be on your way.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMG
I have raised small snakes in large cages and others have too. My BP was always my best feeder until she got a few years old. She started in a 40gal and is still in it today.
Her previous owner was having issues with her but once I set her tank up she started slamming the food and didn't stop until she was a nice healthy adult.
I would say it would be bad to move your snake at this time. To give her more security you may cover some of the cage to limit what she can see on the outside. Taping paper to the outside walls would work fine.
Then as long as you have good hides, offer enough cover, and are properly heating the prey you should be on your way.
As above .... Plus offer the feed immediately so it's still warm , mine all strike from within their hides so I dangle the warmed up rat in front of the entrance ... if they don't take it straight away don't faff about , simply give it's head another ten second blast and wiggle it about in front of him without delay ... simply keep repeating this procedure until it eats .
One other point is to try offering in the evening , couple of mine eat when it goes dark ..... They are nocturnal after all .
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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He does at times poke around at the screen lid in an attempt to escape and does move around when he isn't basking or in a hide. I have all four sides covered currently. I've seen a where people have started off a young python in an even more revealing 40 gal and it still eats, just not my guy. i do wonder if maybe the temps aren't ideal? They do stay around 85 in the air and above and I tested out all sorts of bulbs before I got him to go with my two UTH to keep it closer to 90, but most everything ended up being overkill. The ground temp on the bedding is fine, but the air can vary, which is where the thermostat probe is gauging. Should I be as worried about that ambient air temp on the warm side? Is that maybe becoming too hot paired with the UTH keeping the bedding warm?
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrislongdog
He does at times poke around at the screen lid in an attempt to escape and does move around when he isn't basking or in a hide.
That behavior is something mine does when he's hungry and he settles down to hide after feeding. I'm assuming they're just looking for food.
If he was fed live, he might not recognize the scent of the f/t mouse as food. My snake was only taking live, my f/t attempts would result in him being interested at first and then once he sniffed, he lost interest even when warmed up to 100F and doing a 'zombie' dance. And no luck with the scenting of chicken broth.
What worked for him was using some used mouse bedding in a ziploc bag to scent the f/t after it's warmed up. I shake the f/t around for a few seconds and then my snake will take it. He's consistently been taking it that way for the last 5 feedings.
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Because someone raised 1 snake since hatchling in a large enclosure and it works does not mean it will work for everyone, matter of fact in the majority of cases it does not (those are exceptions) I have troubleshoot 100’s of those same exact questions over the last decade where the common denominator was I have an hatchling in a 30 or 40 gallons tank. If it works great but if the animal is showing issues obviously it does not work, not to mention that some will not show issues right away but the issue will build up over time instead, or people fail to read their animal.
The fact is a temporary small enclosure that fits the animals need is a PROVEN method, when someone experience feeding issues with their snake you will never see an experience keeper or breeder suggest to move the animal in a larger enclosure to help, however they will recommend the opposite.
Again it is temporary until you fix your issue the animal eats for you and you understand your animal’s behavior and a lot of people misread their animal.
If an animal refuse to eat, try to escape, is over active it is telling you something.
In the end it is up to you.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
What I could do is get around a 6qt anyway and try to feed him the live prey in it later this week. He's seemed to stop wiggling around during the day time lately, especially that I concealed all sides of the tank, and has taken to just chilling in a hide or coming out for a short time to drink and bask. If he still seems disinterested after a try or maybe two (however long I need to stall to gather funds to set up a tub), I could then use the tub for his enclosure until he gets another 100 or so grams on him and is eating regularly and keep him in bigger ones until he's big enough and eating regularly enough to move him into the tank. It would make sense since he was raised in a tub anyway.
Unless it seems really unlikely he will take the live, I'd like to avoid getting stuck with a mouse to keep alive until he wants to eat especially since it'll outgrow his food size. In your experience would you say the tub is more likely a solution? I can get most the supplies to set it up tonight.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah
Because someone raised 1 snake since hatchling in a large enclosure and it works does not mean it will work for everyone, matter of fact in the majority of cases it does not (those are exceptions)
So every snake that has ever been kept in a small enclosure eats without issue? I doubt it. A small enclosure may be the norm but I don't believe it is the only way to do it.
If there is one thing I have learned when dealing with snakes it is everyone has there own way to do things. Research any snake and you will find four or five caresheets that are different, we all know that. Certainly these people made a caresheet with information that has worked for them and though it doesn't match what everybody else does, does not mean it is wrong. It may not be mainstream but that doesn't make it wrong.
I don't see why a person like the OP who is providing a naturalistic cage for their snake needs to go to a tub. Their cage may need some tweaks but it will work and I think it is a much better life for a snake.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMG
So every snake that has ever been kept in a small enclosure eats without issue? I doubt it. A small enclosure may be the norm but I don't believe it is the only way to do it.
If there is one thing I have learned when dealing with snakes it is everyone has there own way to do things. Research any snake and you will find four or five caresheets that are different, we all know that. Certainly these people made a caresheet with information that has worked for them and though it doesn't match what everybody else does, does not mean it is wrong. It may not be mainstream but that doesn't make it wrong.
I don't see why a person like the OP who is providing a naturalistic cage for their snake needs to go to a tub. Their cage may need some tweaks but it will work and I think it is a much better life for a snake.
You are missing the point of having issues versus not having issues. If there is an issue obviously it does not work.
Again nowhere will you see someone recommended a large enclosure for an animal WITH issues.
It's not about what I do either because what I do would not work for a new owner either it's about what is PROVEN to solve issues.
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I missed nothing.
It could also be the current setup and the lack of proper hides. You and I are not there but I see no reason to have the OP scrap their setup for a tub without truly knowing the issue. We all know the half logs look good but they are not ideal for snakes. Some added moss or other hides may fix the issues without having to switch to a tub.
Ill back out of this thread even though I have experience with cages like the OP is using and have been successfully keeping snakes outside of the "proven" methods.
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I do need to fix up the cave he's currently hiding in as it's a little big for him and he shoves himself into a corner of it, I plan to add at least one more hide and conceal his log a little better. Hopefully he remains relaxed in a hide as he has been doing lately.
Additional question, should I be placing the thermostat probe IN the bedding above the UTH to regulate that temp? It's kind of measuring the air in the hot area.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrislongdog
Additional question, should I be placing the thermostat probe IN the bedding above the UTH to regulate that temp? It's kind of measuring the air in the hot area.
NO!
The tstat probe goes OUTSIDE the tank between the UTH and the bottom of the tank.
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I do have them both covered up with carpet to prevent any chance of burns also. I can shove the probe in with the one on the floor of the tank, have I been making the bedding too warm?? The bedding is probably 90 or more. Since I have two heaters and one thermostat I can at least regulate that one to 92. Does the InkBird dim the power to it or will it just shut the heater off and keep turning it back on to keep it warm?
Thanks for pointing that out I don't know how I didn't think of how warm it must be on the heater I was focusing on the ambient temp too much
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrislongdog
I do have them both covered up with carpet to prevent any chance of burns also. I can shove the probe in with the one on the floor of the tank, have I been making the bedding too warm?? The bedding is probably 90 or more. Since I have two heaters and one thermostat I can at least regulate that one to 92. Does the InkBird dim the power to it or will it just shut the heater off and keep turning it back on to keep it warm?
Thanks for pointing that out I don't know how I didn't think of how warm it must be on the heater I was focusing on the ambient temp too much
The probe needs to be outside the cage. Only bad things will happen when controlling uth with the probe inside the cage.
The snake CAN get under the carpet. It is no protection.
You need to know your temps. Get an IR temp gun on Amazon, they are cheap.
If it were me I'd cut the tstat down to 88F and get a IR thermometer.
The uth does not heat the air and it is improper to attempt to control the air temp with them.
I don't know your tstat but if it's a cheap one that says on/off and that it's not proportional it does just as you said and turns off and on to control the uth. Proportional tstats are best and one day you'll want to upgrade.
So much for backing out. I think some full pics of your cage would help me get you up and running. One trick to make a hide feel smaller to your snake is placing a good amount of moss in it covering. This covers the large opening and takes up space inside making it feel more secure.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrislongdog
He does at times poke around at the screen lid in an attempt to escape and does move around when he isn't basking or in a hide. I have all four sides covered currently. I've seen a where people have started off a young python in an even more revealing 40 gal and it still eats, just not my guy. i do wonder if maybe the temps aren't ideal? They do stay around 85 in the air and above and I tested out all sorts of bulbs before I got him to go with my two UTH to keep it closer to 90, but most everything ended up being overkill. The ground temp on the bedding is fine, but the air can vary, which is where the thermostat probe is gauging. Should I be as worried about that ambient air temp on the warm side? Is that maybe becoming too hot paired with the UTH keeping the bedding warm?
I've seen a few stories of snakes seemingly forever trying to get out of the Viv and the Viv temps were simply far too warm and the snake couldn't cool down enough . I'm not saying this applies in your case BUT it is a possibility ...
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
I'm a big fan of "scenting" the air by letting the prey defrost close to the tank so they know what to expect. :gj:
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr del
I'm a big fan of "scenting" the air by letting the prey defrost close to the tank so they know what to expect. :gj:
I used to do that when my vivs were all house ...and it certainly does get them " in the mood for food" ... I don't do it now they are all more or less in one room simply as it can get 'scary' feeding the King snakes when they're in " murder- mode" :)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
I can only upload an image by URL and it is just on my phone, so I can't really give an image of it.
I put the probe where it needs to be, it's been keeping the UTH at 90-91. I'll replace it when I have the money to. I might end up removing the second heater on the side when it warms up. I could remove it now but I would then have to go into readjusting temps again, and I think I'd prefer to change as little at this point in there as it is. I picked up a hide that was smaller and put a little moss in there, I covered part of the entrance to his log as well. I know they can get under stuff, he shoved himself behind the foam background at one point, haha. His constant poking around could be due to the heat, although I do see him bask next to the light now and then. The cool side is around the upper 70s.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr del
I'm a big fan of "scenting" the air by letting the prey defrost close to the tank so they know what to expect. :gj:
I've been putting the paper towel it defrosted in over the lid and he'll notice it, but still no chance of eating.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrislongdog
I've been putting the paper towel it defrosted in over the lid and he'll notice it, but still no chance of eating.
... after offering you've reheated with a hairdryer and immediately offered again , then repeat the process until it takes it ??
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrislongdog
I've been putting the paper towel it defrosted in over the lid and he'll notice it, but still no chance of eating.
... after offering you've reheated with a hairdryer and immediately offered again , then repeat the process until it takes it ??
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
I reheated it with hot water until it felt hot, and he would pick up the heat signature and follow it briefly but then end up ignoring it over and over. That's why I was wondering if live would work better since it'd keep the body heat for more than a few seconds. Since the breeder suggested live I assume he got live before I got him.
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Re: Young snake won't take F/T, try live next?
I did have a few feeding issues with my Bp. One thing I did was try getting rodents from differently places and different types as well. The other thing was a hairdryer and letting the scent percolate before I fed her, now she ether comes out of the tank and grabs dinner off me or lets me feed her while she is hiding. Try making sure the humidity is right as well.
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I used a secondary tub to feed him in, and after about an hour of intervals of dark alone time and attempt to feed he took the LIVE last night!! He HATED it walking around but once I started to hold it close to his nose and followed him with it until he eventually nabbed it after a few tries here and there. He was awfully nervous of it. I think I could easily switch to f/t again, it's just that the live was able to hold the body temp while I followed him with it while the f/t would get cool. He's been sitting in his warm hide and digesting :gj:
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That's great. Id keep that going for a few feedings and the try f/t again.
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