Killer bee

So, I just bought my first ball python. The person I bought it from called it a killer bee morph and said it was quite rare. Where can I find out more about this morph?

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/killer-bee/

why did he say it was rare?

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Originally Posted by steelerandrew

So, I just bought my first ball python. The person I bought it from called it a killer bee morph and said it was quite rare. Where can I find out more about this morph?

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Not quite rare pretty common :gj:

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Originally Posted by tsshields

why did he say it was rare?

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To make a sale

Thanks guys. It wasn't to make a sale as I didn't really care about what kind I got. I just wanted a somewhat semi-mature male ball python for my son that was eating well and had been handled a lot. I also wanted to purchase the snake and his enclosure to make the transition easier for him and less problematic for me. I got a healthy snake that is feeding and has a very nice dispositions, a 30 gallon enclosure, humidifier, light with a day and night bulb, feeding container, decorations, temperature/humidifier gauge, decorations, water bowl, extra substrate and hide for $350. I'm ok with that.

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Originally Posted by steelerandrew

Thanks guys. It wasn't to make a sale as I didn't really care about what kind I got. I just wanted a somewhat semi-mature male ball python for my son that was eating well and had been handled a lot. I also wanted to purchase the snake and his enclosure to make the transition easier for him and less problematic for me. I got a healthy snake that is feeding and has a very nice dispositions, a 30 gallon enclosure, humidifier, light with a day and night bulb, feeding container, decorations, temperature/humidifier gauge, decorations, water bowl, extra substrate and hide for $350. I'm ok with that.

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1) Ditch the feeding container, feed inside that tank. Don't believe the misinformation that is out there about feeding in tank and biting.
2) They don't need a day and night light but its helpful if your ambient temperatures are a bit low.
3) I see you said "hide" as in singular. Your ball python should have two hides, one in the hot side and one in the cool side. They should touch all sides of your snake with a single opening. You are going to want to make sure the hides are identical so your snake doesn't choose security over thermoregulation.
4) If the tank is a screen top. You should be able to regulate the humidity by covering the top and using a large water bowl, you might have to spray here and there. If you want to use the humidifier, you are going to want to regulate with something like an inkbird.

I don't see you mentioned an under tank heater. Belly heat helps ball pythons with digestion. You are going to want to make sure you have one connected to a thermostat as well to regulate it and make sure that your snake does not get burned.

Thanks for your help. I think the setup is working fine as the male is very healthy and feeding/digesting well and slightly over a year old. I'm not sure that I want to mess with what is working. I did read everything you wrote in care sheets and don't dispute it at all but I'm trying to create as natural an environment as possible for the animal. The enclosure is screened rather than glass, that is why i have both lights (live in Ohio). In a natural environment animals burrow under the ground to get away from the heat (or hide in a cool enclosure), that is why i don't want to use a heat pad under the tank. I think the humidifier is necessary as my whole house furnace is on and can dry out the air and without glass to hold in the moisture in I'm afraid it will drop the humidity level too much. He was extremely active last night and actually curled up on top of his enclosure directly under the heat lamp for a while. I think I will provide a hide on the cool side as you suggested. Thanks for all of the help.

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Originally Posted by steelerandrew

Thanks for your help. I think the setup is working fine as the male is very healthy and feeding/digesting well and slightly over a year old. I'm not sure that I want to mess with what is working. I did read everything you wrote in care sheets and don't dispute it at all but I'm trying to create as natural an environment as possible for the animal. The enclosure is screened rather than glass, that is why i have both lights (live in Ohio). In a natural environment animals burrow under the ground to get away from the heat (or hide in a cool enclosure), that is why i don't want to use a heat pad under the tank. I think the humidifier is necessary as my whole house furnace is on and can dry out the air and without glass to hold in the moisture in I'm afraid it will drop the humidity level too much. He was extremely active last night and actually curled up on top of his enclosure directly under the heat lamp for a while. I think I will provide a hide on the cool side as you suggested. Thanks for all of the help.

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There are a lot of things that you seem to be misunderstanding.

If you have a UTH that's hooked up to a thermostat and set at the proper temperature, it will NOT burn your snake even if he burrows. But it will provide him with the hotspot that he needs.

If the snake is trying to climb or get higher up to get closer to the heat bulb, then he most likely is trying to tell you something.

Yes, identical hides are a necessity in a viv setup such as this.

And also, and probably most importantly... just because the snake was eating and doing well in the reptile store you bought him from doesn't mean that he will do the same in your home. Are the temps in your home the same? Same humidity?

Keep us posted and let us know how he does at his first feeding session. .. and yes, it's much better if you just feed them in the safety of their own enclosure.


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And also, you mention that "animals" burrow underground to get away from the heat. I don't know of too many Ball Pythons that are "burrowers". Not saying that it never will, but none of mine do. Ever... If you're trying to replicate a BALL PYTHONS natural environment, put a big termite mound inside of its tank w it. :)


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The enclosure is screened rather than glass

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Not an appropriate cage if you really have a screen cage whether the animal was kept like that or not in the past does not make it the proper cage, a screen cage means you will not be able to provide proper temp gradients or humidity.

I would encourage you to do some research.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Not an appropriate cage if you really have a screen cage whether the animal was kept like that or not in the past does not make it the proper cage, a screen cage means you will not be able to provide proper temp gradients or humidity.

I would encourage you to do some research.

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1. I have done a lot of research. I had not researched morphs and was interested in the killer bee morph as I purchased one. That is why I came to this forum, not for cage setup advice. That being said:
2. I have a whole house humidifier on my heating system which is set at 50%.I am maintaining a daytime temperature of 85 to 90 on the hot side and 75 on the cold side using the existing setup with a humidity of 50-60% during the day, this drops off about 5 degrees at night and down to about 50% humidity or so. I plan to turn the humidifier up to 70% when he molts. I do this using broad spectrum light bulbs that simulate the sun during the day (150 watt) and night bulb at night. I do not see the need for an under tank heat pad as I am maintaining the temps/humidity. I do not feel an under tank heater is "natural" for him as the sun is a light/heat source in his natural environment, not the ground. Although this is slightly more expensive, I think its worth it.
3. I did not buy the snake from a pet store, I bought it from someone who raises snakes in their home. He sold me the snake and the enclosure with the setup that he was keeping the snake in. The snake is used to this setup and thriving in this environment. That is why I chose to buy it from a this person rather than a setup from a pet store. It was slightly more expensive but I got a snake slightly over a year old that has been handled daily and is thriving. It was worth a few extra dollars to me for this.
4. I think it is easier to feed the snake in a large plastic tub rather than deal with the potential for the snake to get substrate in his mouth, not for fear of food association as this snake is extremely friendly.

Once again, thanks for the help. If anybody knows where I can find out more information about these morphs, it would be appreciated. I am interested in learning in general terms about how these morphs came about...a history...more than extreme technical info..IE...how many different crosses does it take from the "original" morphology to get to "killer bee" morphology or was it a completely different type of ball python that started these type of morphs, etc.

Hi, you sound like you are very opinionated and that is all very understandable. We are only trying to help you tweak your setup to be the most healthy enviornment possible based on experience and proven results. Everyone here is only trying to help you keep the animal safe and physically sound. Ball pythons require thermostat regulated heat to promote their metabolism and thermoregulatory mechanisms. The sun does heat their enviornment in the wild but in captivity there are certain ways that we replicate that. In any case, a good starter reading would be "The Ball Python Manual" by Vosjoli and Klingenberg DVM, Barker, Barker, and Bosch.

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Originally Posted by steelerandrew

1. I have done a lot of research. I had not researched morphs and was interested in the killer bee morph as I purchased one. That is why I came to this forum, not for cage setup advice. That being said:
2. I have a whole house humidifier on my heating system which is set at 50%.I am maintaining a daytime temperature of 85 to 90 on the hot side and 75 on the cold side using the existing setup with a humidity of 50-60% during the day, this drops off about 5 degrees at night and down to about 50% humidity or so. I plan to turn the humidifier up to 70% when he molts. I do this using broad spectrum light bulbs that simulate the sun during the day (150 watt) and night bulb at night. I do not see the need for an under tank heat pad as I am maintaining the temps/humidity. I do not feel an under tank heater is "natural" for him as the sun is a light/heat source in his natural environment, not the ground. Although this is slightly more expensive, I think its worth it.
3. I did not buy the snake from a pet store, I bought it from someone who raises snakes in their home. He sold me the snake and the enclosure with the setup that he was keeping the snake in. The snake is used to this setup and thriving in this environment. That is why I chose to buy it from a this person rather than a setup from a pet store. It was slightly more expensive but I got a snake slightly over a year old that has been handled daily and is thriving. It was worth a few extra dollars to me for this.
4. I think it is easier to feed the snake in a large plastic tub rather than deal with the potential for the snake to get substrate in his mouth, not for fear of food association as this snake is extremely friendly.

Once again, thanks for the help. If anybody knows where I can find out more information about these morphs, it would be appreciated. I am interested in learning in general terms about how these morphs came about...a history...more than extreme technical info..IE...how many different crosses does it take from the "original" morphology to get to "killer bee" morphology or was it a completely different type of ball python that started these type of morphs, etc.

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Well you seem to have it all figured out.

And you're right, they have plastic tubs in the wild they eat in to prevent substrate inhalation, so you are definitely doing your part in replicating nature. ;) lol jk (not really but kind of)

And snakes don't molt. They're not arachnids.

And a killer bee is just a super Pastel + Spider. Pretty common morph these days.


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Originally Posted by Mangiapane85

Well you seem to have it all figured out.

And you're right, they have plastic tubs in the wild they eat in to prevent substrate inhalation, so you are definitely doing your part in replicating nature. ;) lol jk (not really but kind of)

And snakes don't molt. They're not arachnids.

And a killer bee is just a super Pastel + Spider. Pretty common morph these days.


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Smart ass much? You know what I meant about shedding their skin.

Its not like you can replicate everything in their environment. Thanks.

Does any know if there is a written history of these morphs or a brief breakdown as to how they came about? That is what I came here for.

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Originally Posted by steelerandrew

Smart ass much? You know what I meant about shedding their skin.

Its not like you can replicate everything in their environment. Thanks.

Does any know if there is a written history of these morphs or a brief breakdown as to how they came about? That is what I came here for.

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There are non- negotiable replications though, and three of them are temperature, humidity, and basking spot. If these are inadequate over time then its a recipe for problems. The Ball Python Manual is a good starter read on history and morph identification. :D

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Originally Posted by steelerandrew

Smart ass much? You know what I meant about shedding their skin.

Its not like you can replicate everything in their environment. Thanks.

Does any know if there is a written history of these morphs or a brief breakdown as to how they came about? That is what I came here for.

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Sorry for the sarcasm.. it just gets frustrating that people come on to the site and totally negate what people with years and years of experience are trying to tell them.

The killer bee is a designer morph first produced by Kevin McGurley with New England Reptile Distributors in 1999. Spider being the dominant trait in the genetic makeup. I'm not sure what else you are wanting to know. .. they don't come from the wild, this morph is man made.

Also, would you mind posting a pic of your setup? My interest is piqued. :)

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You obviously have not done your research in regards to your snakes husbandry needs, and don't have any interest in doing so. Let me just say this; if you want to be a good and responsible pet owner, it starts with education.

It does not matter how your friend or whoever it is was keeping the snake or how he keeps his animals in general. Reptiles can tolerate a great deal of mistreatment without showing many obvious signs; just because they seem fine in your novice, uneducated opinion, doesn't mean they are. Please keep that in mind....

If you are ever interested in improving your snakes living conditions, we have many care sheets and habitat setup guides on the forum.

Why the pitchforks here? The OP has obviously done a fair amount of research in order to provide their new addition with the proper overall environment - see this post above: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...=1#post2485070. Just because there's one successful way to keep these animals, doesn't mean that it's the only successful way. Making sure their needs are met is the primary concern - I'm confident the OP is well aware of that and will adjust if necessary as they get to know each other. Sheesh...

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...d86144e98a.jpg

Heres a pic of my killer bee. He came from a killer bee x super pastel breeding.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Why the pitchforks here? The OP has obviously done a fair amount of research in order to provide their new addition with the proper overall environment - see this post above: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...=1#post2485070. Just because there's one successful way to keep these animals, doesn't mean that it's the only successful way. Making sure their needs are met is the primary concern - I'm confident the OP is well aware of that and will adjust if necessary as they get to know each other. Sheesh...

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While I can respect that many people have many different ways of keeping their animals, there is a difference between successfully keeping an animal in a new or experimental set up, and an animal adapting successfully to a sub-optimal setup. Enduring and thriving are not the same things. I don't believe there's any way to make a screened cage an optimal environment for a ball python, not even a good one, unless the majority of it is covered to retain humidity and maintain a stable temperature gradient. The house humidifier is not enough, and the temperature will swing with day and night-time temps because there is no capacity of the enclosure to hold heat. This is why he animal sits on top of his hide close to the lamp for heat and has to choose between security and thermoregulation. I don't deny that OP did some research, but I don't think he did enough, otherwise the screen cage would be a major red flag bad idea to him just like it is to most of us.

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Originally Posted by Trisnake

While I can respect that many people have many different ways of keeping their animals, there is a difference between successfully keeping an animal in a new or experimental set up, and an animal adapting successfully to a sub-optimal setup. Enduring and thriving are not the same things. I don't believe there's any way to make a screened cage an optimal environment for a ball python, not even a good one, unless the majority of it is covered to retain humidity and maintain a stable temperature gradient. The house humidifier is not enough, and the temperature will swing with day and night-time temps because there is no capacity of the enclosure to hold heat. This is why he animal sits on top of his hide close to the lamp for heat and has to choose between security and thermoregulation. I don't deny that OP did some research, but I don't think he did enough, otherwise the screen cage would be a major red flag bad idea to him just like it is to most of us.

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While I agree that a mesh enclosure isn't ideal, it has been brought to my attention (I already was aware of this, but it was reiterated) that there are more ways than one. He does have a humidifier that is providing the proper humidity. (I'd bump it up just a bit though to get better sheds, 50% on the dot will almost always lead to a multi piece shed) and his temps are good.

So to the OP. I am very sorry for coming across as hostile. I, as well as others I'm sure, kind of get into this mindset that the animal should be kept in the same exact way that we keep ours... and that's just not the case. If what you have is working, keep doing it. If you start to notice changes, then we can help you address it from there.

Welcome to the best ball python forum on the internet, and we hope you stay. :)


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Originally Posted by Mangiapane85

While I agree that a mesh enclosure isn't ideal, it has been brought to my attention (I already was aware of this, but it was reiterated) that there are more ways than one. He does have a humidifier that is providing the proper humidity. (I'd bump it up just a bit though to get better sheds, 50% on the dot will almost always lead to a multi piece shed) and his temps are good.

So to the OP. I am very sorry for coming across as hostile. I, as well as others I'm sure, kind of get into this mindset that the animal should be kept in the same exact way that we keep ours... and that's just not the case. If what you have is working, keep doing it. If you start to notice changes, then we can help you address it from there.

Welcome to the best ball python forum on the internet, and we hope you stay. :)


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I agree with this. I guess I am just of the strong opinion that if there are widely practiced, successful methods that there is no reason to put the animal through potential discomfort or stress by opting to use an unconventional set up. But like others have said, if it works it works, and if you have problems they aren't anything that can't be corrected.

I'm sorry if the tone of my posts was not the most forgiving. It was only out of concern for your animal and what I percieved (and still somewhat do) as an unwillingness to hear the advice of people with much more experience than you (OP).

I do welcome you to the forum, and hope that if you do experience problems with your enclosure that you are not so off-put by this thread to not ask the forum for help. The goal of this forum is to help fellow reptile owners learn more about and provide the best possible care for their cold-blooded companions. We all come together under that common goal, regardless of views or opinions. I'm sorry if the fierceness of our comments obscured that vision from you. As said before, we just want what's in the best interest of your animal.

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Originally Posted by Trisnake

I agree with this. I guess I am just of the strong opinion that if there are widely practiced, successful methods that there is no reason to put the animal through potential discomfort or stress by opting to use an unconventional set up. But like others have said, if it works it works, and if you have problems they aren't anything that can't be corrected.

I'm sorry if the tone of my posts was not the most forgiving. It was only out of concern for your animal and what I percieved (and still somewhat do) as an unwillingness to hear the advice of people with much more experience than you (OP).

I do welcome you to the forum, and hope that if you do experience problems with your enclosure that you are not so off-put by this thread to not ask the forum for help. The goal of this forum is to help fellow reptile owners learn more about and provide the best possible care for their cold-blooded companions. We all come together under that common goal, regardless of views or opinions. I'm sorry if the fierceness of our comments obscured that vision from you. As said before, we just want what's in the best interest of your animal.

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Hi,
That is absolutely not the case, I spent hours researching before deciding to make the purchase. I know I wanted a male ball python due to size. I was all set to purchase a 40 gallon tank, under tank heater with probe, lights, substrate, two hides, etc before I ran into this guy. I liked the setup and liked his reasoning for it. I will do my best to try to have this animal thrive, which, based upon what I cans see, he appears to be doing. My family has been handling him on a daily basis and he seems very happy.

thanks again and if I run into problems I will definitely adjust.

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Originally Posted by Mangiapane85

Sorry for the sarcasm.. it just gets frustrating that people come on to the site and totally negate what people with years and years of experience are trying to tell them.

The killer bee is a designer morph first produced by Kevin McGurley with New England Reptile Distributors in 1999. Spider being the dominant trait in the genetic makeup. I'm not sure what else you are wanting to know. .. they don't come from the wild, this morph is man made.

Also, would you mind posting a pic of your setup? My interest is piqued. :)

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I'm at work. I will definitely post some pics when I get home.

OK,

Back to my original post. I am new to ball pythons and their morphology. I assume that someone found some different morphs in the wild and then took the time to breed to select certain traits. I imagine there must have been a great diversity of different types in order to come up with such a different variety of different looks. Is that pretty much the case? About how long ago did this gene selection process start to get us to where we are today?

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Originally Posted by steelerandrew

OK,

Back to my original post. I am new to ball pythons and their morphology. I assume that someone found some different morphs in the wild and then took the time to breed to select certain traits. I imagine there must have been a great diversity of different types in order to come up with such a different variety of different looks. Is that pretty much the case? About how long ago did this gene selection process start to get us to where we are today?

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That's actually not really the case. What you're referring to is line breeding, which is a good practice, but not really a primary focus of most people in the hobby (selecting good examples, yes - line breeding, not so much). Most of the single gene morphs were found in the wild looking much like they still do today. Morph ball pythons have only really been a thing for 25 years or so, and have really only taken off in the last... 10 or so? Here's a pretty good write-up found right here on this site that'll make for some good light reading if you're interested: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-for-Beginners.

Steelerandrew.. Google NERD.. (New england reptile)... And spider gene... I am confident you will find the info you seek. Or, perhaps contact NERD and ask your questions as tht is who originally produced spider and it all grew from there.

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http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/killer-bee/

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

"The Ball Python Manual" by Vosjoli and Klingenberg DVM, Barker, Barker, and Bosch.

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Good read!! Lots of info.


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Originally Posted by Mangiapane85

The killer bee is a designer morph first produced by Kevin McGurley with New England Reptile Distributors in 1999. Spider being the dominant trait in the genetic makeup. I'm not sure what else you are wanting to know. .. they don't come from the wild, this morph is man made.

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Albinos hit the scene first, then slowly things like Pastels and Hypos and pieds started making their way in the US.

Yes, albinos hit in 1997. The start of the BP craze.

If you have a spare 100$ (new price), this will answer any and all questions you have... it's my poop-taking book. Lmao.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...2a77312277.jpg


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Originally Posted by Mangiapane85

And also, you mention that "animals" burrow underground to get away from the heat. I don't know of too many Ball Pythons that are "burrowers". Not saying that it never will, but none of mine do. Ever... If you're trying to replicate a BALL PYTHONS natural environment, put a big termite mound inside of its tank w it. :)


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Anecdotally, my lesser bee loves to burrow. Here's a video of her playing in her fresh aspen.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/facebook.jpg

here he is.https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...r_bee_6171.jpg

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I keep the cool side covered with that towel during the day to maintain temperatures and proper humididty.

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Originally Posted by steelerandrew

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1/facebook.jpg

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How are you measuring temps and himidity? And what is the metal lookin thing stickin up on left side of cage?

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I have a humidity and temperature gauge on the cold side, you can see it on the cold side wall. I keep the cold side at 75 to 80 with a thermal gradient of about 15 degrees from the hot side to the cold (the hot side is between 90 to 95).

The metal thing is a decorations, basically a screw (no jagged edges). He seems to like it, but I will be removing it to put in a hide tomorrow. I just don't want to change too much too fast to allow him to adjust to his new surroundings.

Relaxing

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...of_display.jpg

Beautiful Ball Python !! Well chosen :)

I remember when I first got into snakes. I took good advice but also liked to do what I thought "worked well". Until it didn't..
A lot of live and learn.

Its good to keep an open mind and listen to the people that have done this for far longer. Makes the learning curve quite shorter.

Ball Pythons are very secretive snakes. It seems to me that your guy is seeking out warmth. I know when we keep them they aren't in the wild. But "in the wild" the hiding places they choose are often tight, dark and WARM. Termite mounds are out in the sun, the entire structure. Its made out of material that heats up WELL and holds heat well.

Your hide looks to be made out of some type of material that most likely does not hold heat well (stone/concrete material ? Hard plastic ?) If anything, it doesn't let the heat of the light penetrate, nor hold it. That, plus the colder bottom of the cage under the hide makes for quite the "cold" hot hide. Your Ball Python has to choose between getting warm (on top of hide) or feeling safe (inside a dark, tight place) Now, he cannot voice his opinion. He cannot "show" it.

He still thrives, he eats, and that is great. But there may be stress. They don't show it like other animals. If our dogs and cats started hiding in small, dark places...we would worry !!! Well, for the Ball Python its the other way around. The ones that seem overly active, and out and about, or laying out in the open. All that is actually a sign of something being not quite right.

But again, I've been where you are. I thought "I knew" my snakes. They seemed to do alright. What I did seemed to work just fine. But over time I learned better. But it is something you will most likely have to experience for yourself :)

If you don't mind, here are a couple of suggestions. Cover the outside of the back and side of that cage with some material. Something that will hold your humidity and temps better and also make the Python feel "not so exposed" I would also keep the top covered for the same reason. In the wild, they often get snatched up from above, that is where danger comes from. Not constantly sensing "motion" or movement from above, will let him settle down a lot.

Consider a under the tank heater under the "warm end". Perhaps a hide made of a different material that holds warmth better...Driftwood ? Clay?

In the end, this is your snake and your decisions to make. You have a beautiful specimen and you can enjoy him for many, many years to come. :)