Lets talk about provent a mite

aka PAM (not the cooking spray) http://pro-products.com/provent-a-mite/

So this all starts about a week after my last reptile show. I find mites on a couple of snakes in bottom tubs. My best guess is they were on me, as none of the snakes I took to the show had them, and my one new snake didn't have them. Doesn't matter, I got mites and have to take care of them. I had about half a can of PAM left over from a while ago, used that to treat the affected tubs and the ones next to them. Alrite problem solved. A few days later, not only did it not kill anything, I had 8 tubs infected and the original ones had an explosion of mites. So this is something I suspected before, but wasn't sure. Does PAM have a short shelf life? If i had to guess id say my can is less than a year old.

So I order some PAM, but in the meantime I figure I'd try the all so famous facebook mite fix. I always see RID spoken so highly of as the cheap PAM alternative. On the can the ingredients are exactly the same as PAM, only difference seems to be one less oz per can. While I was there I also saw an even cheaper walgreen generic spray so I picked up a can of each to see if it held up to all the hype. I mean the reason I bought PAM is because that's what everyone recommended here and it worked when I used it.

So I treat 15 tubs with these 2 cans. The reason I only treat 15 tubs is out of that 5 oz can, I only got 8 tubs worth from RID and 7 tubs worth from the generic. 2 cans wasn't even enough to do all 21 tubs I wanted to. this was highly disappointing as I know I can do all 21 in the stack with 1 6 oz can of PAM. a couple for days of waiting for pam to show up, again mites are just exploding, all I can do is soak my snakes to drown the ones that fall off. it was quite obvious neither spray was working. Once PAM did show up, I treat all 21 tubs with a single can and still felt like I could've done 1 or 2 more. Next day, not a single mite is seen alive. Finally got it under control.

So what I find most interesting is the facebook claims of PAM being a rip off as it is so expensive. Well lets do the math assuming the cans do work as intended. I would of needed 3 cans of the RID at $7.50 to do 21 tubs. that $22.50. One can of PAM is $18. Now depending where you can get it, you may or may not have to pay for shipping, I get that. But even if the effectiveness is the same It is still cheaper to buy PAM. I am also severely doubting the effectiveness of RID. Now if my shelf life theory is right, maybe the RID sat too long also and that's why it didn't work. However it still doesn't make sense economically.

so thoughts?

Yep! Reptile expos are one of the easiest places to pick up a mite infestation. I would definitely think after 1 year the effectiveness of the proventamite has been decreased. I can't say that I noticed a expiration date on the cans b4 though. Did you also use the "natural chemistry" product along with the PAM? That is really the one, two punch that is standard. Usually when you buy PAM online it comes as a two package deal. There are anecdotal histories of people just using the " natural chemistry" without PAM and having good results. Remember the natural chemistry is applied directly to the animal and PAM is for the enclosure. Nix and Rid have their pros and cons but I would only use PAM bc it is a proven product when used correctly. Pro products needs to address the expiration debate and the use of PAM in young, and juvenile snakes. But yeah, PAM over all the other products for sure but used in conjunction with natural chemistry for the one, two eradication approach.

I've never used natural chemistry, as PAM has always done the job alone as long as it wasn't an older can. Guess I'll have to ask pro products about the shelf life. I mean if it only is good for 6 months or so, might have to make it a habit to refresh so I always have a good can at hand. I just looked there is no expiration date

Had the same can of PAM for, I believe, 3 years, on hand to pre-treat QT tubs. Did a trade with local reptile store for an atb, it did have mites when I got it into QT and the PAM worked as normal (this was the last of it, so at the end of the approx. 3 years). I've never used anything additional with the PAM, it works great. I'm curious what you are able to find out about shelf life, would be good to know. Maybe I just got lucky!

Idk if that's a over site on the part of Pro products that there is no imprinted expiration date on the PAM. Some people swear by just using the natural chemistry on the animal and for the enclosure. Like wiping all of the tub interiors, exteriors and the inside and outside of the racks. But depending on the level of the outbreak it's much more easier to use PAM. IMO.

The company is very customer friendly and I have spoken with them in the past when someone on a forum had used PAM on a hognose snake. The hognose was having a reaction to the PAM and they were very forthcoming about information on the product and its effectiveness.

The active ingredient in PAM is permethrin. It's half-life is 30 days when mixed with water, and only 7 days if used outside and it's exposed to direct sunlight (many kennel and livestock pest control products have it). I don't know what its half-life is as the "PAM" mixture when still in the can.

I do have the Permethrin-10 livestock spray concentrate that I use to make mite spray, and there is no expiration date on the bottle.

As an update pro products never responded to my email...

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Originally Posted by bcr229

The active ingredient in PAM is permethrin. It's half-life is 30 days when mixed with water, and only 7 days if used outside and it's exposed to direct sunlight (many kennel and livestock pest control products have it). I don't know what its half-life is as the "PAM" mixture when still in the can.

I do have the Permethrin-10 livestock spray concentrate that I use to make mite spray, and there is no expiration date on the bottle.

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Good post to point out a cheaper alternative, especially that you just mix when you need.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

As an update pro products never responded to my email...

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That sucks, that's one reason I hate to do email with companies. One perfect example is if I can't talk to the people I'm interested in getting a snake from on the phone, then I just won't order from them.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Good post to point out a cheaper alternative, especially that you just mix when you need.

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Bear in mind that the alternative, while cheaper, must be mixed carefully as too strong of a mite spray will kill of your snakes as well as the mites. Two liters of water with just 3 milliliters of the P-10 yields the same strength permethrin solution as the NIX/RID bottle in a gallon of water.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

As an update pro products never responded to my email...

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I called the 845 number and spoke directly to a representative on two occaisions. I was very satisfied with the info and explanations i recieved also. Their phone # is right on the back of the PAM can...(845) 628 - 8960..:)

I got a response today, I don't see why I can't share it as it answers my questions.

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Hi Matthew,

Sorry for the delayed response, we have been dealing with one problem after another recently regarding issues with our website and new regulations our company had to implement, which has taken up much of my time. I did get a chance to read your experience which does not reflect the average shelf life of Provent-a-mite. The minimum demonstrated shelf life is 10+ years (we have cans manufactured 20 years ago that are still effective). If a can is exposed to extreme conditions (heat or cold), it can affect the shelf life.

Our formula is unique and uses a different technical than other products, so the efficacy, residual effect, shelf life and toxicity are not the same as other products.

I do not know why your treatment seemed to have been ineffective. The can may have been exposed to conditions that could have degraded the formula. We have also had times when one did not seem to get successful results after a treatment, but then did another treatment with the same can and did eradicate the problem. You can test the efficacy by treating a surface and then place any type of insect or arthropod on the surface, if it dies in 5-15 minutes, the formula is still effective. If the can is still effective, but the results from a treatment were not, it would be due to treatment leaving an area that the mites could migrate through without touching the treated surface.

Bob @ Pro Products
promist@comcast.net
www.pro-products.com
845-628-8960

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I got a response today, I don't see why I can't share it as it answers my questions.

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. Nice... That takes care of the expiration date question for me also. Actually this does make sense. No wonder it's a pricy product! Thanks again. :gj:

Out of curiosity, how exactly did you treat all of the tubs with PAM?

Take out water, take out animal, spray it down, wait for it to dry, put water back, put animal back.

Remember to retreat in 2 to 3 weeks to kill any mite eggs that will have hatched. The half life is thirty days or more. If you can keep the animal out of the treated enclosure for 24 hrs. that will be a safer duration and ensure complete drying. Don't overspray either bc that is where a lot of keepers make a mistake when treating with PAM. 1 sec spray per sq. ft of enclosure. Retreatment is key also. :)

I was just reading and was wondering if you have other reptiles in the room can they breed in the pam and get hurt.. Chameleon and crested geckos..

I'm glad I read this today. I'm actually going to my first reptile expo this Sunday. Anybody have any advice as far as preventative measures so I don't bring mites home with me from the show?

Use lots of hand sanitizer.

Don't handle any animals you don't fully intend to purchase. I don't even touch tables.

If you plan to purchase at the expo have the quarantine enclosure set up and pre-treated for mites the day before the show. This enclosure should be as far as possible from your current collection.

After getting home and making sure any new critters are comfortable, strip, shower, and then immediately launder the clothing you wore to the expo.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Use lots of hand sanitizer.

Don't handle any animals you don't fully intend to purchase. I don't even touch tables.

If you plan to purchase at the expo have the quarantine enclosure set up and pre-treated for mites the day before the show. This enclosure should be as far as possible from your current collection.

After getting home and making sure any new critters are comfortable, strip, shower, and then immediately launder the clothing you wore to the expo.

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I never thought about not touching tables. I don't handle any animals directly unless I'm going to purchase but will hold the cup or container they are in. Going to avoid that now too.

I found a few mites last night on my BP and immediately stripped her tub down, soaked her to get the mites off and then ran out to get reptile spray to use until the PAM I ordered arrives. It's frustrating because I don't know if they came directly from the breeder's site, were on me from being so close to the tables or what. She's back in quarantine now and everyone that wasn't on paper towels before is until I am 100% positive nobody else has them. It freaked me out a bit at first because I didn't foresee this happening but knew it was inevitable at some point. Now it's just a matter of treating all the tubs and keeping an eye out. I feel bad for my girl but that's what multiple checks are for.