New purchase. Heating Questions. With BP Pics!

Yesterday I was looking for an aquarium on Craigslist for some garter snakes I plan to pick up at the upcoming reptile show. I ended up with two of the following: 50gal ExoTerra terrarium, Herpstat 1 controlling UTH on hot side, incandescent heat lamp on hot side, Blue moonlight LED light, timers for day and night lights, hides on both hot and cold side, Humidity sensor and temp sensors in both enclosures, and a bunch of snake care stuff. I didn't even want the snakes but wound up with an albino and a banana BP. Gorgeous snakes. Both purchased from a reputable breeder. The previous owner is moving and was having a hard time getting rid of all the stuff. I paid 425 for everything. :cool:

I'm not understanding the importance of having both a UTH and a heat lamp. The heat lamp is only on during the day. But the snakes hide all day long and don't seem to go between the two hides. From what I can tell the snakes stay in either the hot or cold hide all day. So if there is a UTH in the hot hide then why is a heat lamp used? Why don't they thermo-regulate during the day? This morning one was in the hot hide (lying on UTH set to 96 degrees) and the other was in the cold hide at closer to 70 degrees.

Just a quick description of the setup - heat lamp on hot side, on during the day only. UTH on hot side attached to herpstat set to 96F. Temp probe is inside the enclosure just under a rubberish mat.

Thanks in advance.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2FyI8hvAp.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2Fkxx7qn2.jpg

Gorgeous snake! As far as why they're not moving.. mine stay on their heat mat in their tubs all day long for the most part, but when I check on them every morning I can tell that they were out and about throughout the night time. Makes sense considering they're nocturnal animals..But with thermoregulation, sometimes these guys will sacrifice body heat for safety and security. Try putting the same hide on the hot and cold side so they don't have to sacrifice warmth for protection. Also be sure to purchase a temp gun if you don't have one yet and use it to make sure the hot spot stays right around 90. Good luck with your beauties! ... btw, how much does the albino weigh?


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The albino is 13 months old, both bp are male. The previous owner was power-feeding, one mouse twice per week. I intend to get them on a more typical feeding schedule - That will be my next avenue of research. I would rather the snakes be smaller than larger. Or at least normal size. I haven't weighed either snake.

I know you weigh them to determine how much to feed them but that doesn't seem to make sense to me if I am starting off with an animal that was definitely over-fed.

The albino has a scar between his eyes - The previous owner said that he wasn't sure where it came from and that it should go away after the next shed. Hoping so.

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Originally Posted by BPnuB

The previous owner was power-feeding, one mouse twice per week.

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That is not power feeding......
Depending on the weight of the mice vs the weight of the snake that may be underfeeding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPnuB

The albino is 13 months old, both bp are male. The previous owner was power-feeding, one mouse twice per week. I intend to get them on a more typical feeding schedule - That will be my next avenue of research. I would rather the snakes be smaller than larger. Or at least normal size. I haven't weighed either snake.

I know you weigh them to determine how much to feed them but that doesn't seem to make sense to me if I am starting off with an animal that was definitely over-fed.

The albino has a scar between his eyes - The previous owner said that he wasn't sure where it came from and that it should go away after the next shed. Hoping so.

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Given the look of that albino, he should be on rats. 2 mice twice per week probably isn't even enough. .. although he does look to be at a good size.


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I've got a lot of research to do.. The previous owner said he was power feeding with the two mice per week so I assumed he knew what he was talking about.

My brown snakes eat earthworms and I just feed them when they act hungry. Which is every other day. :D

The heating situation partly depends on what the temperature in your house is like. The UTH by itself is likely not enough to provide both the hot spot temperature and the right ambient temperature everywhere else, so it makes sense that you would need to supplement with the lamp. However, that's still not ideal because you presumably still need it at night. I'd replace the heat lamp with a ceramic heat bulb (you can use it in the same fixture that you already have), which doesn't produce light, so that you can maintain good ambient temperatures all night without having to have the light on. Another alternative is a radiant heat panel, or an additional UTH set to a lower temperature.

I wouldn't worry if the snakes don't switch hides during the day, that's like not getting up in the middle of the night to switch bedrooms. They settle in where they are, and then most of the time they stay put until it's wakeup time. The other thing that is helpful is providing stuff like fake (or real) vines/plants, tubes, etc, so that the snake can get from one side to the other with some cover. It might not be so much a preference for one hide or another that prevents a BP from switching, as a preference not to cross open ground.

For what it's worth, the snake in the warm hide was probably not sitting there at 96 degrees; if the UTH was set to that, the temperature on top of the substrate is probably a lot lower. If you have an IR thermometer, you can point it at the snake to check its body temp; I'm sure it isn't 96 degrees. The snake in the cool hide might not have been all the way down to 70, either; if the hide is a dark color it could still be absorbing heat from the lamp and get warmer inside than the ambient temperature around it.

That said, 70 is pretty low for a BP. You should shoot for high-70's to 80 for the cool side and 90-ish for the warm side. It doesn't matter that much how you get there.

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Originally Posted by BPnuB

I've got a lot of research to do.. The previous owner said he was power feeding with the two mice per week so I assumed he knew what he was talking about.

My brown snakes eat earthworms and I just feed them when they act hungry. Which is every other day. :D

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I feed all of my BP's every 4 days like clockwork. I don't at all consider it power feeding. I give them one prey item per feeding, except for my Mojave female, she usually prefers two lol. And I always give them prey that's just bigger than their largest part of their bodies. Ball pythons are far from brown snakes. But if you want to just feed them once per week, that would be fine too I'm sure. I want to breed my snakes so I do want to put on good weight, especially for the females. But you seem to just want them as pets, so once every 7 days would be fine.


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Thanks for the assistance so far - Actually one thing the guy told me is that I should keep substrate off the heating pad so that they can get directly on it (at 96 degrees). I bought the terrarium with the snakes still inside and I haven't changed anything from the original setup. Should I cover it in substrate? Currently both snakes are in their warm hides. I was curious about their temperature -

Here is a shot of the albino in his hide -

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2FNIR8c9f.jpg

You can see his markings around the bullseye - Top left is the reading in the center of the bullseye. So a body temp of 91.6 with a max temp of 95.3F

Pretty impressive that the herpstat is set to 96 and FLIR is reading within 1%.

Here is the cold hide -

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2Fkp7A4gw.jpg

Here is one of the center of the enclosure - The dark spot in the center is the water bowl. Looks like the gradient in the center (not including at least 8" on either side) is about 75 to 93F.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2FmmPlHsj.jpg

With temps that warm, I'd save yourself a few pennies off the electrical bill and turn down the Herpstat. Hot spots over 90° are basically useless and can actually increase the rate at which females produce slugs rather than viable eggs. I can't remember the exact figure or where I read/heard it, but the tipping point seemed to be around a body temperature in the mid-80s for decreased fertility. Also, in BPs in general, prolonged exposure to temps over 95° are also said to have impacts on their neurological function.

About the substrate - you certainly could put it over the hot spot. There's no harm in doing so at all. If they want to move it out of the way and lay directly on the glass, they will be able to.

Snakes?? Are they both in the same enclosure?

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Snakes?? Are they both in the same enclosure?

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I thought the same, but the OP does say that they got two of everything - including enclosures. Good question for clarification though.

Definitely don't keep the snakes together in the same tank. Big no no. That raises their stress levels. They are very independent animals. ... and 96 is too hot. Keep it at 90.


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You shouldn't put a thick layer of substrate over the uth, but you can put some. Alternatively, you can also use a paper towel on just that one spot, held in place by the hide, and substrate all around it. But it's nice to have at least something absorbent case the snake pees in there.

Two enclosures, two snakes.

They have very different mannerisms - the albino is super curious and is all over the place when I get him out the enclosure. The banana barely leaves his hide and doesn't want to move around much when he's out the enclosure, either.

The albino aggressively took his mouse off tongs. The banana wouldn't take the mouse at all while he was shut up in a dark box. I put the mouse (dead) in his hide and put the banana back in his enclosure.

Maybe you guys were right about the albino being underfed. Maybe he's just hungrier.

I did turn the UTH down to 90. Bwahaha I love the albino - he is out his hide now wandering around. I have the moonlight LEDs just bright enough for me to be able to see him in there.

http://i.imgur.com/PVOqwwH.jpg

Like I've said, I use plastic tubs. But w my thermostats and UTH's, I have to put them around 95 or so for the heat to transfer through the material to achieve a perfect 90.


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So the banana didn't take his mouse overnight. I removed the mouse this morning. Likely stressed. I was hoping that since his enclosure hadn't changed he would be fine with the move but I'm going to leave him alone for the next couple days and try to feed him again next time.

I had the albino out in the yard yesterday evening. The neighbors kids came over and asked if they could hold it. At what point can I hand him off to someone not familiar with snakes and be fairly comfortable that he won't bite? My son keeps asking as well but I'm not willing to risk it yet. He loves snakes currently. Being bit would be pretty traumatic at his age (4).

Edit: so my wife was mortified to come home from work to two ball pythons in the living room. Interestingly she said yesterday that she was eager to hold one once we were confident they wouldn't bite. Pretty exciting for me. I'm trying my best to convince her to not get a tortoise..

From my experience, even though I've never been bitten by them, they will give you PLENTY of warning if they aren't in the mood to be touched.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPnuB

So the banana didn't take his mouse overnight. I removed the mouse this morning. Likely stressed. I was hoping that since his enclosure hadn't changed he would be fine with the move but I'm going to leave him alone for the next couple days and try to feed him again next time.

I had the albino out in the yard yesterday evening. The neighbors kids came over and asked if they could hold it. At what point can I hand him off to someone not familiar with snakes and be fairly comfortable that he won't bite? My son keeps asking as well but I'm not willing to risk it yet. He loves snakes currently. Being bit would be pretty traumatic at his age (4).

Edit: so my wife was mortified to come home from work to two ball pythons in the living room. Interestingly she said yesterday that she was eager to hold one once we were confident they wouldn't bite. Pretty exciting for me. I'm trying my best to convince her to not get a tortoise..

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I wouldn't worry about the snake, I would worry about the kid stressing the snake out with all that poking and prodding. Its just what kids do. I have a 4 year old little brother, he knows that every Thursday I'm going to get Karma out and sometimes sits in my room all day, waiting. For the first 2 months it was 'Look but no touching', now he can pet her while I'm holding her and sometimes I even let him stay in my room while feeding her, as long as he's quiet. For me, passing Karma off to the neighborhood kids, I would never. People that aren't familiar with snakes are probably jumpy, they've never felt how a snake moves and most likely thinks it feels 'slimy', perfect opportunity for your snake to get dropped.

I've read a lot of stuff on feeding ball pythons and it seems like it is a preference thing.

I would like my wife to be able to feed the snakes when I'm not around. I'm not going to ask her to take them out of their enclosure to feed them. The previous owner put the mice in the enclosure in a small bowl. Is there a better method?

When I am around to feed the snakes would it be best to remove them from their enclosure despite feeding them in their enclosures other times?

I'm a firm believer snakes should be fed in their own enclosures. .. I do it with all six of my snakes and I've never been bitten. Just use tongs on feeding days and when you go to handle them, grab them from behind to where they don't have an angle on you to snap. And always make sure your hands are soapy clean! :)


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPnuB

I've read a lot of stuff on feeding ball pythons and it seems like it is a preference thing.

I would like my wife to be able to feed the snakes when I'm not around. I'm not going to ask her to take them out of their enclosure to feed them. The previous owner put the mice in the enclosure in a small bowl. Is there a better method?

When I am around to feed the snakes would it be best to remove them from their enclosure despite feeding them in their enclosures other times?

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Feeding outside the enclosure is asking to get tagged, moving a snake in feeding mode is never a good idea.

When feeding in the enclosure if fed live you should just drop the prey in the enclosure (obviously make sure the prey is not too big make sure it is well hydrated and we'll fed before being offered, it will also help to keep the feeder near the enclosure for 30 min to an hour before offering), do not place the prey in a bowl and place the bowl in the enclosure, if you do the snake will go for your hand.

If feeding f/t use tongs.

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Feeding outside the enclosure didn't make any sense at all. He ate the mouse in a cardboard box and then I was confused as to how to get him back into the enclosure without handling him. I ended up tilting the box over trying to get him to slide out. Fortunately he fled out the box into his home and I didn't have to just dump him.

So going forward I'll feed f/t with tongs while they are in their enclosure. Is there a best time of day to feed or is it snake dependent?

Ball pythons= feed at night time or close to night time in the dark.

Edit: I don't mean pitch black dark. I just mean kind of dark. I just fed all of my snakes at 11:30 in the morning but with the lights off. They all ate, like they always do.

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I think I just spooked the banana by removing him from his enclosure to feed him. I went ahead and fed both this evening once their moonlights came on. They both violently took their mouse off tongs. Startled me pretty good. I need longer tweezers. I believe mine are 12".

Still need to weigh the snakes and figure out what type of mice to order. Maybe tomorrow evening..

Weighed the albino earlier - 16.6oz. I weighed a mouse and it came in at .8oz. The previous owner was feeding one mouse every 4 days. The mouse is half his body width at its widest point. Any feeding advice?

The banana is 12.4oz if I remember correctly.

Also - these snakes cannot behave any differently. The albino is all over the place when I take him out. The banana acts terrified to even move. Is this just personality differences or do I have a problem? Both enclosure setups are as alike as they can be. Same fixtures, furniture, etc.

Also the albino is out his hide as soon as the day light goes out. I've never seen the banana with his body outside the hide. He will have his head out his hide at night.

We all work in grams. What is this "ounce" that you speak of? Lol

And each snake is its own individual. But with proper and consistent handling they all start to get a little more active when taken out. In my experience anyway.


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470g Albino
351g Banana

Change your scale LoL

There is a reptile show this weekend - I have a bunch of items I plan to pick up while I'm there.

I believe the previous owner was feeding mice. Should I be worried about buying bulk rats? I don't want to get a bunch of rats and then learn the snakes would much prefer to stick with mice.

Also - It seems like I need rat weanlings or XL mice. Mice seem to be cheaper. Can't find an good explanation for why this is the case beyond the convenience of size. Can someone explain which would be preferred and confirm the sizes I mentioned are correct for my BPs?

What a mess - I decided to do a CIP (clean in place) with the snakes still in the enclosure. They never come out their hides during the daytime so I figured I could just sanitize the empty hide outdoors, scoop up half the substrate with a dustpan, wipe the plastic/rubber liner off with sanitizer, and replace with clean substrate. Place snake on clean side, then repeat.

Two problems arose - First off the snakes were all over the place as soon as I started messing around in their enclosure. This evening is feeding night so they were out and about looking for food. Secondly one of the enclosures had gotten urine under the rubber/plastic liner. I realized this after I had already cleaned one half of the terrarium. So I really wanted to remove the liner and trash it but I already had the snake resting in a sanitized hide with new substrate, on the side I had already finished.

In short it worked out but was a bad idea all around. The snakes probably would have been happier in a temporary enclosure while I cleaned their big homes thoroughly. Granted I enjoyed having the snakes company while I was cleaning. I think it may have actually been a good thing for the Banana. I was really surprised to see him just wandering around with me looming at the terrarium opening.

Also CIP doesn't work well with surprises like urine under the mat..

The albino, I think, got his name today. I believe he is going to be "Junior" since he acts about as ADHD as I am. His switch is either ON or OFF. Wide open and won't be still or completely immobile.

I wonder if he thinks it is a new piece of furniture since it smells completely foreign..
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2FPk7W2on.jpg

I really appreciate the input you guys have offered thus far. I changed my scale and reweighed both snakes -
Albino - 458g
Banana - 349g
Mouse 1: 26g
Mouse 2: 25g

Junior (albino) took both mice without issue (after i weighed him). Planning on getting 100 weaned rats at the columbia SC repticon this weekend unless someone suggests otherwise.

Well I thought this thread was over, but..

Albino had two mice 24hrs ago. Banana wouldnt take his mouse and missed yesterdays meal.

Wife wanted to see one of the snakes so I went to get the banana out for a few minutes. He was mostly out his hide. I was lifting him out the cage when he started.. convulsing? There were a lot of poop sounds accompanying his spasms. Reminded me of him doing "the worm". After 4 or 5 cycles he opened his mouth like he was going to regurgitate but I'm guessing he didnt have anything in him to vomit up.

I cleaned up his projectile poop off the wall of his hide and replaced the substrate in that area.. Is this normal?

No, i don't think anything that has to do with "convulsing" is considered. Normal. :/ maybe he was just trying to worm out of your hands?... but now that he pooped, I would definitely try feeding him again. That's usually when mine are in super hunting mode.


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Aim for rats that weigh 10-15% of the snake's body weight, it's more accurate than going by girth of snake=size of prey. Also my understanding of how snakes digest means that I feed every 6-7 days, no closer together than that. It unnecessarily taxes their digestive systems to eat too-small prey items too frequently. I switched my rescue bp from mice to rats by asking for dirty mouse litter at the pet store and using it to scent the f/t rats until she had it figured out. Once the rat was thawed I would pour some mouse litter in a dish, lay the rat on it and then warm it under a goose-neck lamp until it had a surface temp of 95-100 on each side (flip it once).

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Originally Posted by kali_is_my_copilot

Aim for rats that weigh 10-15% of the snake's body weight, it's more accurate than going by girth of snake=size of prey. Also my understanding of how snakes digest means that I feed every 6-7 days, no closer together than that. It unnecessarily taxes their digestive systems to eat too-small prey items too frequently. I switched my rescue bp from mice to rats by asking for dirty mouse litter at the pet store and using it to scent the f/t rats until she had it figured out. Once the rat was thawed I would pour some mouse litter in a dish, lay the rat on it and then warm it under a goose-neck lamp until it had a surface temp of 95-100 on each side (flip it once).

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I aim for 20-22 percent of my snakes' body weights.. different strokes and I guess it depends on your overall plans.


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I was thinking about it last night and it may just be the way snakes poop. It is like he was flexing his muscles from head to tail, but it was very rapid - A complete head-to-tail cycle including pooping sounds every second.

It made me think that he was actually taking air in and out of his rectum. Like wheezing but through his butt. I dunno. Hopefully this was an isolated incident. I'm out of mice the previous owner gave me. Going to pick some larger ones up today to see how the snakes fare with larger food items.

The albino hasn't really budged since he had his two mice the other day. I believe he is happy and content.

I picked up two small rats (one frozen, one live) and the banana wouldn't take his meal live or fresh killed. He was super curious when the rat was alive but wouldn't strike. I left the rat, dead, at the opening of his hide for 30 minutes and he didn't touch it. It was dripping blood out its nose. I stuck the rat in the freezer to try again later.

BTW, I know the dangers of feeding live. I just wanted to try it, supervised. In retrospect I'm glad I tried it but wouldn't do it again. Frozen is the way to go. I hated killing that rat.. :(